Re: In-Season General Show Chat



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ROBOT B9
Round and round and round she goes, where she'll stop, nobody knows - Joined: Mar 27, 2012
- Location: Albir, Spain
- Gender: Male
Moderators: Perrydotto, Dexanth, Venusy, Wayoshi
Dulset Tarn wrote:I want to chat about the show, anyone got a topic?
If not, here's one. I thought Season 4 was downright terrible.
Dulset Tarn wrote:Originally, Nightmare Moon vows to create eternal night but never attacks her sister. Celestia is never threatened.
In the retconned version, Nightmare Moon claims to only want to destroy Celestia, and does not once mention creating eternal night.
Perpetual Lurker wrote:The storybook opening was super vague on the details. Nightmare Moon would have to get rid of Celestia one way or another, since it's not like Celestia would just let things go. Plus in the scene we see in the Season 4 opener, the very first thing Luna does is block out the sun and create eternal night. She even rants about the ponies backing in Celestia's light. I don't think the two versions are mutually exclusive.
Dulset Tarn wrote:You can't honestly suggest the two stories aren't vastly different. The story is clear that Celestia could not raise the sun because Luna wouldn't lower the moon, you cannot infer from the original that Nightmare Moon was violent toward her sister. And Luna eclipsing the sun in the retconned version (already a contradiction) is not remotely a sign of eternal night. In fact, the ONLY way her intention to create eternal night could be established is if she SAID it herself, since the night lasted no longer than five minutes. You're grasping at straws but they don't hold.
Perpetual Lurker wrote:We'll just have to agree to disagree, then, since I think what's shown indicates Luna's intentions rather clearly. In any case, one bad detail in one episode can't possibly ruin an entire season. What was wrong with the rest of it?
PaulloDEC wrote:I think maybe you're putting a bit too much stock in the storybook sequence. Who even wrote that? When? For such an important event, why is it so vague about so many things?
Then we've got the potion-flashback in Season 4. How accurate was that? Is it like time-travel, or some kind of vision? Are we seeing an exact, 1:1 representation of what happened, or is it a truncated version?
Both sources are potentially unreliable to varying degrees, IMO.
Master_Twig wrote:They also had a limited time to show the flashback. It was one small scene in a two-parter episode that was likely cut short to make time. I don't see anything really directly contradictory. You're kind of going off of the assumption that everything we see in the season 4 opener was everything that happened. There were cuts and we can't assume everything happened in the exact same time-frame as what we saw. It's quite possible Nightmare Moon was off in populated areas making speeches and declaring an eternal night to all the ponies she encountered. They did the best they could with what they had. Still a pretty solid episode I think.
Dulset Tarn wrote:Isn't it kind of dishonest to suggest that what we saw onscreen wasn't necessarily canon? But either way, consider this: You say that it may have been shortened for time, but why was it there in the first place? What did that flashback actually add to the episode at all? Do you think they really interrupted the story with something like that only for it not to even be a coherent story?
PaulloDEC wrote:I think maybe you're putting a bit too much stock in the storybook sequence. Who even wrote that? When? For such an important event, why is it so vague about so many things?
Dulset Tarn wrote:Isn't it kind of dishonest to suggest that what we saw onscreen wasn't necessarily canon? But either way, consider this: You say that it may have been shortened for time, but why was it there in the first place? What did that flashback actually add to the episode at all? Do you think they really interrupted the story with something like that only for it not to even be a coherent story?
The Doctor wrote:
It really has to be either Starswirl or more likely Celestia who wrote that book. From everything we know, only three ponies knew about the Elements. Celestia, Luna and Starswirl. I lean towards Celestia writing it because it included instructions on how the elements work, and Starswirl seemed to know only what they were capable of, and not how to wield them.
The Doctor wrote:I think it's very possible. I'd like to give Luna credit that she could put up more than a 10-20 minute fight when trying to overthrow her sister. I think the episode did a great disservice to what seems to be one of the most important events in Equestria History.
Master_Twig wrote:What exactly do you mean by ruining? Yeah, there are always going to be some inconsistencies with characters seeing as that this IS a children's cartoon show, and it's written by many different writers. That's just inevitable. But nothing in any of those episodes was so earth-shatteringly different that it completely ruins the characters in the other episodes (Like Anakin's portrayal in the Star Wars prequels ruins the character of Darth Vader).
Hell, I can think of a half dozen episodes where Pinkie Pie is portrayed far worse than in Pinkie Pride. Heck, I thought that was one of her better episodes in terms of consistency of character.
Dulset Tarn wrote:pike gets Power Ponies, Pinkie gets Pinkie Pride, AJ gets Somepony to Watch Over Me, Twilight gets the finale, etc. etc.
And that's not mentioning trainwrecks like Breezies or Daring Don't or Equestria Games.
PaulloDEC wrote:Is it dishonest? Maybe, but isn't assuming that every word spoken on the show is 100%, rock-solid canon equally silly?
The Doctor wrote: And this will make me sound like a broken record with some here, but since you're new I'll just lay down my opinion that a "coherent story" is never something that comes into play when Meghan is writing Celestia and Luna. They are obstacles in the way of her Twilight story that need to be dealt with as expediently as possible.
Master_Twig wrote:What exactly do you mean by ruining? Yeah, there are always going to be some inconsistencies with characters seeing as that this IS a children's cartoon show, and it's written by many different writers. That's just inevitable. But nothing in any of those episodes was so earth-shatteringly different that it completely ruins the characters in the other episodes (Like Anakin's portrayal in the Star Wars prequels ruins the character of Darth Vader).
Master_Twig wrote:Hell, I can think of a half dozen episodes where Pinkie Pie is portrayed far worse than in Pinkie Pride. Heck, I thought that was one of her better episodes in terms of consistency of character.
Dulset Tarn wrote:This question baffles me. What even is canon if not "what happens in the show"? The story could certainly be dramatized sure, but suggesting that what we actually saw in the flashback was somehow not the case...?
Dulset Tarn wrote:This question baffles me. What even is canon if not "what happens in the show"? The story could certainly be dramatized sure, but suggesting that what we actually saw in the flashback was somehow not the case...?
The Doctor wrote:
Well I think that expectations of what is "canon" (or continuity) needs to be tempered with the acceptance that this is not Tolkien. This is not a tale with the most inane minutia and history planned out. This is a series written by multiple writers and is really playing the world building as they go. We're not going to get a totally solid and cohesive timeline. Much like with Star Trek, you have to accept the occasional contradiction or error.
Dulset Tarn wrote:Also I want to tell you all that I'm having a lot of fun chatting and arguing, it' kind of what I love doing and I hope it doesn't bother you guys. I'm really glad I'm here
PaulloDEC wrote:
To put it another way, what we see or hear isn't always a 100% accurate record of events. Sometimes you only hear part of a story. Sometimes details are withheld or misreported. Sometimes people use figures of speech, or exaggerate for effect. Sometimes things can be misconstrued, or simply aren't as they seem.
Headless Horse wrote:I've said elsewhere recently that one of the show's great strengths is what it doesn't show.
Dulset Tarn wrote:And sometimes Twilight says Ponyville is hundreds of years old when it was actually founded by ponies still alive today! But that's not a contradiction, it just implies Twilight was wrong. I'm just saying that if we see something happen, then you kind of lose the right to reasonably speculate that it didn't happen that way. So suggesting that the flashback was "cut for time" and therefore "not the whole story" is fundamentally dishonest. And dishonesty in discussion is admittedly a huge peeve of mine.
Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:The show definitely values characterization above plot. Looking at the "Age bracket" thread, this would be one of the things that would change if it was aimed at the Adventure Time or Gravity Falls audience.
PaulloDEC wrote:we saw a magically induced vision of the actual events
Dulset Tarn wrote:
In the early seasons sure, but since season 3 the characterization has consistently been reshaped to force a silly story.
Yes, we saw a vision of the actual events. In fact, the visions being completely accurate is exactly how they find the Tree of Harmony. It is undeniably irrational to suppose that they weren't accurate.
Dulset Tarn wrote:And sometimes Twilight says Ponyville is hundreds of years old when it was actually founded by ponies still alive today! But that's not a contradiction, it just implies Twilight was wrong. I'm just saying that if we see something happen, then you kind of lose the right to reasonably speculate that it didn't happen that way. So suggesting that the flashback was "cut for time" and therefore "not the whole story" is fundamentally dishonest. And dishonesty in discussion is admittedly a huge peeve of mine.
Bremen wrote:what we see is not necessarily canon
Dulset Tarn wrote:Mm, yes. Yes it is.
Bremen wrote:
So.. Spike can fly? Twilight's magic can mess with the cut to black when an episode ends? Discord really makes Harry Potter and Star Wars references? Twilight can have an anvil fall on her head without injury?
In the end, the show is entertainment. It's not supposed to be a perfect portrayal of another world.
Dulset Tarn wrote:I'm of the opinion she hasn't had a good portrayal since season 2, but go watch Griffon the Brush Off and you'll see that the character in Pinkie Pride is actually a Bizarro Pinkie, with all the exact opposite traits that the real Pinkie has.
Strangest Letter wrote:That's more or less the exact opposite of what I think. I'd honestly say that season one is when Pinkie was at her worst.