Off-Season General Show Chat

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Re: Off-Season General Show Chat

Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:57 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:And, really, citing the episode where Twilight becomes a princess as an example of the show having no character development is kind of amazing.

Considering the fact that it was crammed in for the sake of a toy mandate in a 22 minute episode, rather than take the time to, what's the word, develop it? I can think of no better example.

Skipping over something doesn't count for development. The same jump applies to Sunset and Starlight. There was no development, it was a jump.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:15 am

Perhaps you could outline what you would consider development, since the show has apparently never done any of it.

edit:
Here are the major ones I'd highlight:

Twilight:
First season: An awkward nerd who realizes she wants to become more social but is terrified of failure. She sees her friends as a test she will pass or fail. Episodes like "Boast Busters" feature this. She is a talented unicorn (compared to other ponies). "Cutie Mark Chronicles" also gives us her life goal: To be like Celestia.

Second season: She realizes her bond with her friends is more than just pretending to be perfect. "Return of Harmony" and "Lesson Zero" especially hammer on it. Her magic is more refined, as in "It's About Time."

Third season: Twilight is groomed for leadership. We see the princesses nudging her in that direction in "Crystal Empire" and "Games Ponies Play." "Magical Mystery Cure" is the conclusion of her three-season story arc. She becomes like Celestia -- powerful with magic, strong relationships, a confident leader, and now a princess (although that last one is not really important compared to the others).

Rainbow Dash:
In the beginning, she is a cocky, loudmouthed showoff. She wants to join the Wonderbolts, but even with her status as savior of the world, she's not a shoo-in. By "Wonderbolts Academy," we see that she takes her position as a leader and a role model more seriously, and in the Equestria Games story arc, she is actively mentoring younger ponies, particularly Scootaloo.

Fluttershy:
Admittedly, her growth has been more single-note, but she has gone from, "That pony's scared of her own shadow!" to having a test of wills with Discord and winning, and gradually placing herself in more public roles, like putting on the fundraiser for the animals.

Rarity hasn't had a character growth arc so much as success catching up to her, but she has now achieved her goal of being recognized for her talents among the upper class of Canterlot. :vogue:
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Postby Pocket (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:11 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:And, really, citing the episode where Twilight becomes a princess as an example of the show having no character development is kind of amazing.

"You rescued your friends from a reality-altering accident that you caused! Here, have the gift of godhood, which actually just means you're exactly the same except now you can also fly. Also you totally spent the last three seasons, two of which we focused almost exclusively on the other characters, earning it. Take our word for it."

"Character development" isn't exactly how I'd put it.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:38 pm

Pocket wrote:"You rescued your friends from a reality-altering accident that you caused! Here, have the gift of godhood, which actually just means you're exactly the same except now you can also fly. Also you totally spent the last three seasons, two of which we focused almost exclusively on the other characters, earning it. Take our word for it."

"Character development" isn't exactly how I'd put it.

I'm just going to point back to my previous post because I think your summary and ShieldedDiamond's posts are missing the point. "Character development" isn't something that just happens in one episode. I left the CMC off of the list because, no matter how many times they learn a lesson about growing up, it doesn't really seem to stick until they finally have an epiphany about their goals in life at the end of last season.

Does it matter if Twilight got wings? Not really. Her royalty/divinity is pretty much a non-factor in the show. If MMC had ended with Celestia saying, "Congratulations, my faithful student! You have defeated Pandora's Box, and that's it," how many future episodes would it change? Maybe three?

The important character development is her growth from being self-centered and alone to caring about others and seeking out opportunities to help them. Her solution is not to magic the shit out of things, but to lead her friends to help each other. That's Celestia's M.O., and that's what they've been doing for the past two seasons.

Whether MMC is good at testing Twilight in a way that clearly proves she deserves to be a princess more than any other pony is a separate question. If they had proved that she was above and beyond every other pony, it would be character development (and possibly a kind I don't agree with). But that doesn't invalidate three seasons of her growth as a person.
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:21 pm

The show missed opportunities with the map episodes to show more of other species.

Instead, we got hick ponies, and Manehattan, which is just New York with ponies.

The show isn't that good at adventure episodes, honestly.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:36 pm

VGAddict wrote:The show missed opportunities with the map episodes to show more of other species.

Instead, we got hick ponies, and Manehattan, which is just New York with ponies.

The show isn't that good at adventure episodes, honestly.


I mean, most of the map episodes weren't very adventurey, but yeah. The show's always been at its best when it does slice of life stuff.

I just hope the CMC's new marks won't turn them into a mark-finding special force that goes on adventures, the reason they're great is that their episodes are always slice of life :-P
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:40 pm

If "Explore Equestria" is the theme for Season 6, let's hope Pony delivers. As in Las Pegasus and Saddle Arabia, just to name two examples. :snobtavia:
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:49 pm

Pocket wrote:"You rescued your friends from a reality-altering accident that you caused! Here, have the gift of godhood, which actually just means you're exactly the same except now you can also fly. Also you totally spent the last three seasons, two of which we focused almost exclusively on the other characters, earning it. Take our word for it."

"Character development" isn't exactly how I'd put it.


To address just a few things:

It's been a while since I've watched MMC, but isn't it heavily implied that Twilight was being deliberately set up to cause the accident? Like, the whole thing was a test?

The wings and shit were never the point of Twi's promotion; they're more a symbol, or at most just tools. The point of that whole bit wasn't "Boom, you're now totally different to what you were before", it was "This is a turning point, and a new chapter of your life begins here."
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:02 am

MMC works well as the finale to Twilight's journey.

The flaw in the episode is that there wasn't a journey. It was an episode to cap off a story arc that never happened. The only buildup was Celestia giving Twilight a task that made no sense at all because the story had to be about Twilight. Other episodes that could have been used for build up weren't and in the case of "Keep Calm and Flutter On" fly totally in the face of that journey.

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:twonk: Books gone, lets not even try, and just turn him to stone.

:spoiler: and you're an idiot, Fluttershy.

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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:04 am

Can't say I'm all that excited for Season 6 from what we know so far.

If the Explore Equestria theme is like the map episodes, then I'd rather the show stick to slice of life, because it's good at that.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:22 am

I'm all for world building that can come with traveling.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:32 am

If we do end up seeing Las Pegasus then considering the confusion around its name back when it was first dropped in S2, I'm hoping for it to be a mashup of both Las Vegas and Los Angeles.

What I'd really like to see, though, is Hollow Shades. That's one of the few known settlements in Equestria that doesn't have a direct North American analogue.
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:16 am

Think we'll have another mid-season hiatus?
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:31 am

Despite all it's flaws I still think it is one of the best shows out there. In retrospect it could have done a lot of things better. Sure, but what show isn't like that? If the show wasn't as good as it is now we wouldn't even be here talking about it.
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:04 am

I like the show, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

I just don't think it's the best cartoon ever. I don't think it'd even make the top 10 cartoons of all time. It is what it is.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:34 am

It's not the best anything ever; but it is something special. To many people, it has a unique blend of rare ingredients that just haven't ever been seen elsewhere. So while it might fail on points in some clinical trial against certain other shows or whatever, it's playing its own game in a lot of ways. Fans in the grandstands don't care about those objective comparisons, they're going to care about whether the thing that has engaged them emotionally is still taking the field.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:49 am

What Headless said. I think there's loads of better cartoons, but doesn't stop me loving this one.

VGAddict wrote:Think we'll have another mid-season hiatus?


Hope not, but wouldn't be remotely surprised. TV scheduling seems nuts these days.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:53 am

Compared to what I've heard of scheduling for Gravity Falls and Steven Universe, FiM's relatively consistent schedule is a godsend.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:01 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Compared to what I've heard of scheduling for Gravity Falls and Steven Universe, FiM's relatively consistent schedule is a godsend.


God, yeah. The scheduling of Gravity Falls came close to killing the show for me. Steven Universe at least has the benefit of coming out in groups now.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:33 am

Yeah I don't understand this recent trend of judging shows on being "the best ever", like a show can't be good unless it's "OMG THE BEST SHOW EVAR!!1!"

I've definitely gotten a lot out of FiM and I'd put on my top 10 favorite shows, not necessarily the objectively best shows ever or flawless shows ever, but my connection to the show and its cast definitely makes it one of my favorites.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:36 am

I really can't make much of a call as to whether FiM is or isn't the best show ever, mainly since I've watched very few cartoons (other than this show) for the past decade of my life. Of course, I figure that if this cartoon horse show was good enough to get me to watch it and get this far into its fandom, then it must be a good show.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:23 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:I'll be running it again next week, starting at 7:30 EST. I'll keep going at least until we've watched all of S5 again, then perhaps something else. Right now I'm thinking of running all of S1 after S5 is done, since it's been a long time since I've seen those early episodes, and I imagine that a fair number of folks haven't seen them in a while either.

Off-topic, but when is Gravity Falls Fizz watch, that should be next :-P
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:02 am

Headless Horse wrote:It's not the best anything ever; but it is something special. To many people, it has a unique blend of rare ingredients that just haven't ever been seen elsewhere. So while it might fail on points in some clinical trial against certain other shows or whatever, it's playing its own game in a lot of ways. Fans in the grandstands don't care about those objective comparisons, they're going to care about whether the thing that has engaged them emotionally is still taking the field.


I would actually say that it is the best show ever whose primary demographic is young girls.
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:19 pm

I like to think of Spike as Brilliant But Lazy.

He's at least as smart as Twilight, but he'd rather eat gems and read comic books.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:30 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Off-topic, but when is Gravity Falls Fizz watch, that should be next :-P

Eventually. S6 is starting much sooner than I expected (and GF finished much later than I expected), so I don't know. Maybe I'll start watching it after I'm done running S5 in the Pasture, maybe I'll save it for a possible mid-S6 hiatus, maybe something else?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:48 pm

VGAddict wrote:I like to think of Spike as Brilliant But Lazy.

He's at least as smart as Twilight, but he'd rather eat gems and read comic books.


I don't know if I'd call him lazy. He's a kid, he does things most kids like to do, eating his version of junk food and reading comics. He messes up sometimes, but he has also stepped up when necessary, such as in The Crystal Empire. :here:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:00 pm

PonyHag714 wrote:
I don't know if I'd call him lazy. He's a kid, he does things most kids like to do, eating his version of junk food and reading comics. He messes up sometimes, but he has also stepped up when necessary, such as in The Crystal Empire. :here:

Man, I'll let Spike have his comic books and gems. The dude's Twilight's butler, maid, and secretary. And now he has to clean that whole castle without even eating it!
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Postby mrx1983 (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:13 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
God, yeah. The scheduling of Gravity Falls came close to killing the show for me. Steven Universe at least has the benefit of coming out in groups now.

yeah i read something about that, this steven bombs or how that is called, and then they get the broadcast time very short-dated.
the pony air schedule i a way more better.
you get at least an approximate season release date very early, and then you got a new episode every week.
i also think that is better for the quotes if there is a stable schedule and not chaos like schedules.
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:20 pm

I don't like that the show is going to waste an "Explore Equestria" episode on Manehattan. They already wasted a map episode on it.

Do we NEED another episode taking place in Manehattan? There's really not much you can do with a location that's just New York with ponies.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:32 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
God, yeah. The scheduling of Gravity Falls came close to killing the show for me.

I found that scheduling hilarious in hindsight for some reason.

"Alright, we are going to show the final episode of the series in three parts. Part one and two will be shown within a week of each other while part three will be shown three months later."
:-I

". . . . Brilliant!"
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By the time the third episode came around most of the hype was lost for me and I watched it more out of a sense of duty. It was like watching a movie 2/3 of the way then stopping it and waiting until summer to finish the last third of it. Emotional investment lost.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:33 am

Yep, pretty much. You'd think they'd do an hour-long finale marathon and promote the hell out of it, but that didn't happen :-I
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Postby Thaddeus (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:31 am

At least they did a huge marathon leading up to the last part of the finale. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Pocket (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:05 am

VGAddict wrote:I don't like that the show is going to waste an "Explore Equestria" episode on Manehattan. They already wasted a map episode on it.

Do we NEED another episode taking place in Manehattan? There's really not much you can do with a location that's just New York with ponies.

You have to understand that everyone who has ever spent a significant amount of time in New York — which includes most of the people who work in the entertainment industry — is absolutely convinced that it is the greatest city in the history of the world, and that setting something there automatically makes it 100% more fascinating by extension.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:13 am

Headless Horse wrote:It's not the best anything ever; but it is something special. To many people, it has a unique blend of rare ingredients that just haven't ever been seen elsewhere. So while it might fail on points in some clinical trial against certain other shows or whatever, it's playing its own game in a lot of ways. Fans in the grandstands don't care about those objective comparisons, they're going to care about whether the thing that has engaged them emotionally is still taking the field.

Everything you type is just gold to my eyes.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:09 am

VGAddict wrote:I don't like that the show is going to waste an "Explore Equestria" episode on Manehattan. They already wasted a map episode on it.

Do we NEED another episode taking place in Manehattan? There's really not much you can do with a location that's just New York with ponies.



See, now I want rural Oregon, but with Ponies.

Or an off-peak tourist trap beach town, but with Ponies.


And so my posting isn't super inane:
Headless Horse wrote:It's not the best anything ever; but it is something special. To many people, it has a unique blend of rare ingredients that just haven't ever been seen elsewhere. So while it might fail on points in some clinical trial against certain other shows or whatever, it's playing its own game in a lot of ways. Fans in the grandstands don't care about those objective comparisons, they're going to care about whether the thing that has engaged them emotionally is still taking the field.



Another way of saying this is that there's a pretty large gulf between Your Favorite Movie and The Best Movie.
You look at any IMDB or AFI list and you can point to Godfather Part II or Citizen Kane or whittle the choices down to a genre and work from there.
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls055592025/
http://www.afi.com/Docs/100Years/movies100.pdf

But if you're asked about Your Favorite Movie* , it's a completely different ballgame where you're talking about what makes this movie special and why it resonates with you.
You might be talking about what was happening to you at such and such time in your life when you saw the movie, and how it inspired you to become a so on and so forth. Of course this makes a talk like this a personal decision; it's hard to convey why exactly you have enthusiasm for a show or movie because a fair amount of it comes down to how you're wired.

e:
And of course, there's elements that made you stick with FIM to begin with that aren't in later seasons.


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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:49 pm

I would like to see the cast take a trip to Pony Twin Peaks. Not grimdark, mind you, just deeply weird.

The way I've always categorized FiM is: as a TV show it's pretty good; as a cartoon it's quite good; as a cartoon for kids it's great; as a cartoon for kids based on a toy line it's exceptional; and as a kids' cartoon based on a toy line for little girls it's damn near a miracle.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:26 pm

I like the show but having low self esteem, self loathing, and being on SA kind of tempers my enjoyment of the show. :fluttersmith:

Though it is good and cute and fun which is why I like it, an escape from so called adult and mature shows that are largely brain dead, idiotic, and sophomoric. Like Three and a Half Men which is technically an adult show given that 90% of it seems to be about sex, mostly how little Ducky from that 80s movie isn't getting.

Yet Pony is more intelligent, well thought out, and mature than a long running sitcom that is mostly adult content that shouldn't be on all hours of the day where kids might run into it.

And Pony is mostly there to sell plastic crap to little girls.

Sigh. Idiocracy is real isn't it? :consternation:

I mean it isn't like adult content can't be done well as both Rick and Morty and the New Battlestar Galactica shows. ( Well outside of that ending being kind of assy.) But it rarely is, much like a lot of family programming is also brain dead stupid and cynical.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:51 pm

Captain Rufus wrote:I like the show but having low self esteem, self loathing, and being on SA kind of tempers my enjoyment of the show. :fluttersmith:

Though it is good and cute and fun which is why I like it, an escape from so called adult and mature shows that are largely brain dead, idiotic, and sophomoric. Like Three and a Half Men which is technically an adult show given that 90% of it seems to be about sex, mostly how little Ducky from that 80s movie isn't getting.

Yet Pony is more intelligent, well thought out, and mature than a long running sitcom that is mostly adult content that shouldn't be on all hours of the day where kids might run into it.

And Pony is mostly there to sell plastic crap to little girls.

Sigh. Idiocracy is real isn't it? :consternation:

I mean it isn't like adult content can't be done well as both Rick and Morty and the New Battlestar Galactica shows. ( Well outside of that ending being kind of assy.) But it rarely is, much like a lot of family programming is also brain dead stupid and cynical.

I agree with everything you say. Pony is a cheerful escape from my otherwise depressive life. It is like pony has to play within limits so it makes more serious messages that much more thought provoking. Whereas adult content has more freedom to work with but choices not to do anything with it. My co-workers often tell me I need to stop watching children cartoons and watch shows for adults. I ask them why? It is usually the same intellectual context but viewed through a grittier lens.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:34 am

Ehhh, there's plenty of good adult shows :-I Not all of it has to be gritty even.

Pony cheers me up and it's adorable, funny and just a joy to watch. I get something different out of it than I do watching something like The Wire or House of Cards, and that's fine :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:54 am

^^ I mean I'm getting something just out of watching your avatar :amazing:


E: fooey :fluttersmith:
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