Offseason General Show Chat

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Re: [s]Almost[/s] Actually Offseason General Show Chat

Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Fri May 23, 2014 10:15 pm

SoundMonkey44 wrote:Last RoundUp was a case of AJ letting her pride & fear of admittance to failure cloud her judgement. AJ is An athlete and stubborn, she didn't want to fave her friends & all of Ponyville when she felt like she had failed them & herself.

Filli Vannilli: Yes Pinkie was over the top & annoying but she was being the vocal representation of Fluttershy's fears.


MMMOTFE: OK yeah that one was just silly, but it's talking ponies on a train with a giant cake in a cartoon... What do you expect to happen!? :pinkieshrug:

Edit: yes everyone is aweful in Mare Do Well.


Just because she was a representation in a way of her fears, doesn't excuse the fact that Pinkie was written to be really hurtful, that easily could have been toned down.

And honestly, I think the "talking ponies cartoon" doesn't excuse anything. Just because it's a cartoon, doesn't mean it should just have out of character moments like that, this isn't a random show. I'd hold up a cartoon to the same standards I'd have for other shows, with some exceptions. That's why I feel "just a cartoon" is never a valid reason to explain something.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Fri May 23, 2014 10:20 pm

If being a cartoon isn't a valid reason to do something, might as well just get rid of animation altogether then. Part of what makes toons & comics so great IMO is that they can do/get away work things live action media can't.
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Fri May 23, 2014 11:15 pm

I have no problems with characters acting like jerks to one another and honestly I'd like more of that currently despite certain people saying that "Oh, they've matured hence why should characters act immature still?"

Because it's a cartoon? :rariwhat:

And also, not everyone is benefiting from being mature :-/ :angry: but that's another story for another time :crack:

Regarding The Last Roundup, the thing is, having seen Foster's Home for Imaginary Friends, it made sense looking back at Amy Keatings' episodes as to why her episodes have a mean spirited tone. Because Foster's did have that meanspirited tone too. I'm sure her works on other shows from the late 90s to early 2000s fostered that tone in her writing though unfortunately I doubt her time on Care Bears resulted in anything redeemable or interesting.

Does seeing Pinkie and Rarity get left behind and forgotten feel FiM-like? Nope. And while it wasn't funny ha-ha to be back then nor is it today, I at least didnd't mind it and could see why AKR wrote that in, that being for some cheap laughs maybe for kids. I guess it would have been funnier if one of the main characters did go "Ya think we forgot something?" and then we cut to those two stranded
:cheese:

I dunno, I guess I would have chuckled and I think if they had set things up as jokey as suggested, then maybe it wouldn't have been that unintentionally offensive...?
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 1:12 am

SoundMonkey44 wrote:If being a cartoon isn't a valid reason to do something, might as well just get rid of animation altogether then. Part of what makes toons & comics so great IMO is that they can do/get away work things live action media can't.


But you're saying it's okay for characters to act out of place "Just because it's a cartoon." It's not a valid reason because it's disposing of what was already established in the show, how the characters work. Even as a cartoon, it still has "rules" to follow, and doing something like making established characters act bizarre for no reason, like in MMMystery. It's like saying cartoons should get away with anything, when really no, they shouldn't, confined to their own "universe", so to say. MLP cannot become Looney Tunes, for example, because they're both cartoons.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 1:25 am

Yeah—I'm not really inclined to be on the "point out reasons not to like certain things about the show" side of this argument, but I do firmly agree that FiM—like any quality cartoon, or like any quality show or piece of work of any genre—needs to live up to a certain set of internal standards. Usually Pony does so very well. But it does stumble from time to time.

Saying that a cartoon can "get away with" things is talking about a different phenomenon. It's saying that cartoons are allowed to show characters doing physically impossible things or engaging in wacky physical comedy that just isn't possible in other media. That's a very different thing from saying they can spend a year establishing a certain character with a lot of very consistent and carefully constructed dialogue and interactions, and then suddenly have an episode where she acts flagrantly out of pattern with what you've come to expect. That isn't the show reveling in the fact that it's a cartoon—it's a show failing to adhere to its own agreed-upon and published set of standards, the unspoken contract that it has with you as a viewer who has signed on to watch more of the show based on what you saw and liked in the first few impressions.

Now, this is putting aside the fact that personally I don't find many of the things mentioned lately to be that out-of-character or that bothersome. :pinkieshrug: I thought Pinkie was hilarious in Filli Vanilli. But then I don't like the characterizations in MMDW or HWE, and for exactly the reasons people are outlining. They just feel subtly alien to me and it weirds me out.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 1:40 am

Pinkie is not my favorite, but I have to imagine she is an incredibly tough character to write for. She toes a line constantly between wacky and grating. For what it's worth, I thought S4 did a great job making her more wacky in her focus episodes, but she fell over on the grating side more often with her supporting appearances.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 1:46 am

Headless Horse wrote:Saying that a cartoon can "get away with" things is talking about a different phenomenon. It's saying that cartoons are allowed to show characters doing physically impossible things or engaging in wacky physical comedy that just isn't possible in other media. That's a very different thing from saying they can spend a year establishing a certain character with a lot of very consistent and carefully constructed dialogue and interactions, and then suddenly have an episode where she acts flagrantly out of pattern with what you've come to expect. That isn't the show reveling in the fact that it's a cartoon—it's a show failing to adhere to its own agreed-upon and published set of standards, the unspoken contract that it has with you as a viewer who has signed on to watch more of the show based on what you saw and liked in the first few impressions.


Pretty much all this.

I don't often agree with you Headless, but you really hit the nail on the head here.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:00 am

I'll totally agree that nothing is perfect, but to bring this back to the original issue here, how are these various mistakes the fault of the fans?

I mean, with regards to Pinkie, she's been obtuse and inconsiderate since freaking Ticket Master. Filli Vanilli may have been too extreme, but it's not like that character trait was invented on the spot. The writers aren't perfect, and they can't cater to every taste at once. Some people are going to like Discord being around, others won't. It's just the way things are. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:02 am

While not Dash level, Pinkie has always been hit and miss when it came to tact and empathy.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:06 am

Pinkie is the "cartoony" one, so basically they have more freedom with how to depict her, which can cause missteps to some people.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:38 am

I still disagree, but meh, to each their own.

BTW...X-Men: Days of Future Past is pretty dang good, just got done seeing it, fun film, much better then the let down that was Godzilla...but I guess I should take that to the movies thread in foriegn lands...


Back to pony. My main & only problem with dash is writers can't seem to agree on her levels of jerkiness. Some like to make her a big jerk others like to make her more compassionate, sure either way she's a jock with a heart o gold, but they really needa work on that IMO.

As for expectations in MLP, or any show, some people will never be happy no matter what is or isn't done.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:42 am

The Doctor wrote:While not Dash level, Pinkie has always been hit and miss when it came to tact and empathy.

That's how I considered her behavior in Filli Vanilli. Given that and what Mr. Big said, she is not exactly a stable person, so I expect her to show some... variance, to put it kindly. And it's not as if she were naïvely written, either, considering how the others called her out on being a jerk.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:50 am

Yeah, Pinkie actually did get called out in that episode, so they were self-aware, at least.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:19 am

I'm curious, what do those who complain about Pinkie in Filli Vanilli think of Fluttershy doing pretty much exactly the same thing in Sonic Rainboom? I'm kind of curious why I hear complaints about one but not the other.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:25 am

Fluttershy did not go nearly as far as Pinkie did, and was also legitimately supportive of RD for the rest of the episode. Plus, Rainbow Dash isn't exactly known for being a fragile flower, and was boasting all the way there and back, while Fluttershy was already anxious when Pinkie started talking and was in tears when she finished, and as Rarity pointed out, she sort of lost her point and wasn't really supportive at all, just bashing Fluttershy with her own fears over and over again.

Fluttershy's scene also serves as a bit of a bonding moment, as, for a short time, Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash have their roles reversed, with Dashie being the one flipping out, showing how they're actually pretty similar deep down; on the other hand, Pinkie just amplifies the exact feeling the anxiety that Fluttershy exhibits like every other scene she's in, and says nothing about their relationship except maybe that Pinkie is completely inconsiderate.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:30 am

And that right there, the fact that the others were all aghast at her behavior, is what saves it for me. They're as put off by it as we are.

It's not like Pinkie was just a horrible ass this one time and everyone took it in stride as though that's what she's always like.
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:31 am

Plus even if you were to think of Fluttershy's words of 'support' to Rainbow as intentional ribbing, it iust comes off as kind of funny since Rainbow plays the over-confidence card constantly, something that Flutershy certanly never does. Really, the two situations aren't comparable at all.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:35 am

Headless Horse wrote:And that right there, the fact that the others were all aghast at her behavior, is what saves it for me. They're as put off by it as we are.

It's not like Pinkie was just a horrible ass this one time and everyone took it in stride as though that's what she's always like.


I don't really think that justifies it, because even if they acknowledge her behavior is out of line, it's still out of line. I watched Filli Vanilli right after watching Pinkie Pride - in the latter, Pinkie Pie is completely rejuvenated by the memories of her parties, and nearly leaves town because she took attention from her friend's birtheversary... in the former, Pinkie drives one of her friends to tears and doesn't understand that she did anything wrong, to the point of doing it multiple times.

Her being called out makes her scenes tolerable, but writing Pinkie to be a complete burden on her friends is still not okay. In real life, that's the sort of behavior that convinces me to cut a person out of my life, and seeing someone who struggles with anxiety be driven to tears by an unrepentant friend is not funny.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:38 am

I never saw Fluttershy in "Sonic Rainboom" as doing anything but trying to help RD. She knows her better than anyone else.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:42 am

Foxfyre wrote:Fluttershy did not go nearly as far as Pinkie did, and was also legitimately supportive of RD for the rest of the episode. Plus, Rainbow Dash isn't exactly known for being a fragile flower, and was boasting all the way there and back, while Fluttershy was already anxious when Pinkie started talking and was in tears when she finished, and as Rarity pointed out, she sort of lost her point and wasn't really supportive at all, just bashing Fluttershy with her own fears over and over again.

Fluttershy's scene also serves as a bit of a bonding moment, as, for a short time, Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash have their roles reversed, with Dashie being the one flipping out, showing how they're actually pretty similar deep down; on the other hand, Pinkie just amplifies the exact feeling the anxiety that Fluttershy exhibits like every other scene she's in, and says nothing about their relationship except maybe that Pinkie is completely inconsiderate.


Well.. isn't the point that neither can understand the other having fears? Fluttershy couldn't understand RD having fears because she put on a brave front, Pinkie couldn't understand Fluttershy having the fears she did because Pinkie's mind just doesn't work that way. Poking fun at fears is explicitly Pinkie's way of doing things, and that seems to be what she's trying to do.

The Doctor wrote:I never saw Fluttershy in "Sonic Rainboom" as doing anything but trying to help RD. She knows her better than anyone else.


Really? I mean, maybe it wasn't quite at the level of Pinkie in Filli Vanilli, but it was pretty bad:

Fluttershy: But, Rainbow Dash. Just because you've failed the sonic rainboom a hundred thousand times in practice doesn't mean you won't be able to do it in front of an entire stadium, full of impatient, super-critical sportsfan ponies.


She didn't mean anything hurtful with it, but I think it's pretty clear neither did Pinkie. It certainly caused RD to feel bad, though.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:49 am

If were going to nitpick over every time a character makes another character feel bad, might as watch G3 or Strawberry Sbortcake instead. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:50 am

Bremen wrote:Well.. isn't the point that neither can understand the other having fears? Fluttershy couldn't understand RD having fears because she put on a brave front, Pinkie couldn't understand Fluttershy having the fears she did because Pinkie's mind just doesn't work that way. Poking fun at fears is explicitly Pinkie's way of doing things, and that seems to be what she's trying to do.


1) Griffon the Brush-Off - pranking Fluttershy is seen as a horrible offense
2) Putting Your Hoof Down - Fluttershy is so sensitive and fragile, she can be pushed over by a light breeze
3) Fluttershy had literally just admitted she wasn't comfortable
4) Fluttershy was crying
5) It's not even really poking fun, she's just beating Fluttershy over the head with her own fears and it is very very very clear she isn't laughing
6) As someone who deals with social anxiety it wasn't poking fun for the viewer either, because she's doing nothing more than stating the truth, there's no real ridiculousness to it or anything for someone like me that really sympathizes with Fluttershy
7) This isn't 'Pinkie Pie thinks differently', that would be something like Swarm of the Century; this is 'Pinkie Pie is completely disregarding her friend's feelings because it's funny' when it's not even funny in-universe, just seen as overly harsh, and this is not the Pinkie I like to see

SoundMonkey44 wrote:If were going to nitpick over every time a character makes another character feel bad, might as watch G3 or Strawberry Sbortcake instead. :pinkieshrug:


Um, I'm sorry for talking critically about a TV show? Seriously, though, I like being critical and stuff, and also Filli Vanilli really resonated with me because I'm a lot like Fluttershy is in that episode, so seeing Pinkie act that way really bothers me. I suppose elaboration on that is too personal for this thread, but really, I don't think it's okay to tell someone to go watch another show instead.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:59 am

I'm just saying it sounds like you want the show to coddle the viewer. And there's plenty of shows that look down on and coddle the children/people that watch them. Don't need MLP doing that as well. :-/


On a more positive note, I've decided someday, somehow in MLP or EQG one I wanna see Cadence & Shining Armor sing Boogie Wonderland, not a ponified version the real thing, and I want it to be as cheesy over the top and 70s as possible. :gotcha:

If Penquins can do it. Ponies can to damn it!!! :twonk:
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:04 am

SoundMonkey44 wrote:I'm just saying it sounds like you want the show to coddle the viewer. And there's plenty of shows that look down on and coddle the people children/people that watch them. Don't need MLP doing that as well. :-/


I don't really see how making Pinkie into something other than an unnecessary jerk in that scene would be 'coddling the viewer'.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:05 am

SoundMonkey44 wrote:I'm just saying it sounds like you want the show to coddle the viewer. And there's plenty of shows that look down on and coddle the people children/people that watch them. Don't need MLP doing that as well. :-/


The episode otherwise doesn't have an antagonist at all, there's remarkably little tension until the final scenes, and Pinkie's not even there for 90% of the screentime. Filli Vanilli is by far one of the lightest episodes the show's ever done; I don't think the show needs to stop having antagonists or whatever, but Filli Vanilli never needed one in the first place :rariwhat:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:10 am

I would also guess that, knowing Rainbow Dash for years, Fluttershy probably knows that being blunt is the only way to get through to her.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:13 am

The Doctor wrote:I would also guess that, knowing Rainbow Dash for years, Fluttershy probably knows that being blunt is the only way to get through to her.


If so, it really, really backfired. What was she trying to get through about, anyways?

Edit: And actually, now that I think about it, the "she didn't realize Rainbow Dash could have confidence issues" excuse doesn't hold water either. The rest of the mane 6 quickly realized Rainbow Dash was nervous, that was the plot of the episode. And Fluttershy has never been shown as anything but considerate; she more than anyone should have realized RD needed encouragement.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 5:48 am

The Doctor wrote:Image

Rainbow Dad has a name! :awesomedash:

:ponder: I don't remember this shot from any episodes. Is the card game known for having new shots?


Huh...I could have sworn this was from Games Ponies Play but it's not...could we be seeing RD's father sometime in the next season?
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Postby Venusy (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 7:37 am

Bremen wrote:
Well.. isn't the point that neither can understand the other having fears? Fluttershy couldn't understand RD having fears because she put on a brave front, Pinkie couldn't understand Fluttershy having the fears she did because Pinkie's mind just doesn't work that way. Poking fun at fears is explicitly Pinkie's way of doing things, and that seems to be what she's trying to do.

Pinkie's mind does work that way (sometimes); we've seen her collapse at the hint a party isn't perfect, quit parties forever (briefly) over the belief that someone is better than her, and she does believe all of her friends have turned on her when they're just planning a surprise party.

The difference here is tone and context, though I know that Fluttershy's line there is one of the things people will cite if they believe she's passive-aggressive. Fluttershy is excited from having stood up to the bullies, and it's just a statement that slips past her usual filter - ironically exemplifying the "loss of control" Rainbow Dash recommended for cheering.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 2:50 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:
Huh...I could have sworn this was from Games Ponies Play but it's not...could we be seeing RD's father sometime in the next season?


One of my biggest hopes for S5 is more screentime for Pony Parents, or to see parents of ponies we haven't seen, so I hope he shows up next season.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:07 pm

The Doctor wrote:Image

Rainbow Dad has a name! :awesomedash:

:ponder: I don't remember this shot from any episodes. Is the card game known for having new shots?


:offendash: UGH! Dad! My friends don't wanna hear about what rainbows were like back in the day! Those are just boring!

:allears: I don't mind! I'd like to hear about those rainbows, sir.

:offendash: UGH! Dad! You're embarrassing me in front of my friends!
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:19 pm

:v: Kids, when I was your age, I remember a time when Cloudsdale was only THIS big...

:grumpydash: DAD! No one cares about your stories! I'm going to my room!
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:21 pm

I picture Dash being a bit of a Daddy's Girl.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 3:23 pm

The Doctor wrote:I picture Dash being a bit of a Daddy's Girl.

That'd be :allears: if it was. And I can believe it.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:06 pm

More parents. All of the parents.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:10 pm

kefkafloyd wrote:More parents. All of the parents.



Image

:allears: If there was one single piece of fanart I would want to be canon...
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:55 pm

That's good enough for me to call it canon. :pcstare: :speakest:
:party: A pony, a plan, a canal...Panamare!
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 4:59 pm

I certainly hope we manage to see that next season. That plus a Celestia episode and a Rashomon episode would make the entire season worth it for me.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 5:26 pm

Mr. Big wrote:That'd be :allears: if it was. And I can believe it.


Extremely marked personality changes depending on who she's around.

So, say an episode where she's coaching a girl's soccer team and her father has a field side seat.
"Y' know, Dasheline-"
:awkward: "Don't call me by my full name!"
"I'm proud of you for stepping up to coach these fillies, I didn't think you had the patience or the temperament-"
:awesomedash: "Awwwwwww gee thanks dad! Say, let's go out for-"

:offendash: "YOU PUT YOUR HEAD BETWEEN THE BALL AND THE NET. THAT'S HOW YOU TEND THE $&@¿£ing GOAL!"
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Sat May 24, 2014 5:40 pm

Fluttershy has no family, IMO. Rainbow Dad (fuck it that's still his name) had to adopt her so Rainbow Dash and Fluttershy are legally sisters.


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