How Pony is Formed: Production and Business Thread

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Re: How Pony is Formed: Production and Business Thread

Postby Bumble-B (?) » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:26 pm

I can see McCarthy doing the premiere two parter.

While Larson did write the finale which is the first of a three parter, MMC wasnt a normal episode. It was a musical and i doubt the S4 two parters are musicals, either they are slice of life or adventure eps, which McCarthy or anyone can do
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:43 am

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Postby Nissl (?) » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:02 am

Thanks for the update, putting it into the OP.

Glad Ingram made that resume change or I think there'd be a lot of drama right now even though it's been pretty clear S4 was a lock for many months.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:15 am

So, apparently Rich Arons is now working on "Pony" as a timing director; he's even a guest on the upcoming Brony-Fest in Lewisville, TX. Rich Arons has a long career in animation. He worked at Filmation as an animator (He Man, She-Ra, BraveStarr, etc.), was a writer, director, and storyboard artist on Tiny Toon Adventures and Animaniacs, and many other shows.

What puzzles me is that they're employing a timing director on Pony. For those who don't know the animation terminology, sheet timing is when you animate with numbers instead of drawings. In traditional, hand-drawn animation, before you do any drawings you have to write the instructions on exposure sheets (aka X-sheets, dope sheets), which acts as a guide for animators on how everything should be animated.

It explains how the action should be drawn, how many drawings are needed; in addition, dialogues are broken down frame-by-frame so the animators know what mouth-shapes are needed when animating a character talking. It looks something like this, although nowadays it's even more detailed with instructions because traditional animation for television is done in Korea.

Generally, cartoons done in Flash doesn't use timing sheets at all. They time everything in animatics, and the Flash animator goes from there. So, why do FiM have a sheet timer on its staff now? Did Hasbro and/or DHX bite the bullet and switch the show's animation to traditional? Will FiM will be one of the very few Flash-based shows to have timing instructions written before-hand?
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:27 am

Mr. Big wrote:Did Hasbro and/or DHX bite the bullet and switched the show's animation to traditional?

What reason would they have to do this, anyway? From what I understand, animating it in Flash is a lot cheaper and a fair bit easier than traditional cel animation. Unless they're doing a gimmick episode that gets animated by a completely different method, my best guess is that just want his animation experience in general.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:30 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:What reason would they have to do this, anyway? From what I understand, animating it in Flash is a lot cheaper and a fair bit easier than traditional cel animation.

It's possible they decided to increase the budget.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:31 am

Is it possibly EqGirl-related instead of FiM?
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:34 am

In any case we can hopefully find out in that convention at the end of the month, and/or subsequent conventions he might be invited to.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:38 am

Could be! Although, really, if Arons is involved in EqG only, wouldn't they specify that in the guest list? It'd be misleading, because they're implying that he's working on FiM.

For what its worth, I wouldn't mind if the show switches to cel animation, even if it's just for one episode.

(I'd be annoyed if he's working on just EqG, though. That would imply that Hasbro is spending more money on that instead of FiM)
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:39 am

Mr. Big wrote:So, apparently Rich Arons is now working on "Pony" as a timing director; he's even a guest on the upcoming Brony-Fest in Lewisville, TX. Rich Arons has a long career in animation. He worked at Filmation as an animator (He Man, She-Ra, BraveStarr, etc.), was a writer, director, and storyboard artist on Tiny Toon Adventures and Animaniacs, and many other shows.

What puzzles me is that they're employing a timing director on Pony. For those who don't know the animation terminology, sheet timing is when you animate with numbers instead of drawings. In traditional, hand-drawn animation, before you do any drawings you have to write the instructions on exposure sheets (aka X-sheets, dope sheets), which acts as a guide for animators on how everything should be animated.

It explains how the action should be drawn, how many drawings are needed; in addition, dialogues are broken down frame-by-frame so the animators know what mouth-shapes are needed when animating a character talking. It looks something like this, although nowadays it's even more detailed with instructions because traditional animation for television is done in Korea.

Generally, cartoons done in Flash doesn't use timing sheets at all. They time everything in animatics, and the Flash animator goes from there. So, why do FiM have a sheet timer on its staff now? Did Hasbro and/or DHX bite the bullet and switched the show's animation to traditional? Or maybe FiM will be one of the very few Flash-based shows to have timing instructions written before-hand?


Interesting :smirk: Tho i doubt FiM will turn to hand drawn animation (EqG... Maybe? Who knows), i am curious whether this means we will be seeing an improvement in animation.

Again, not an expert on animation (would love to but kinda busy with World History books) but reading the blog and Mr. Big's summary makes it sound like "precision" is the keyword here about the timing director. I think it's safe to say that FiM isnt really a action-heavy show that requires alot of precision throughout the episode (it's mostly for two parters and the actiony parts are kinda short), so i wonder if Season 4 might mean we will have more action or just scenes that are not of the norm to animate (scenes that require more time for animators i.e. facial expressions than the recycled walking animations)

I know a lot of people were impressed with S3 premiere's animation tho people quickly stopped talking about that after it cuz the other 11 episodes werent as impressively animated (i,e. Twilight's mane against the wind in the Failure Song). Hopefully S4 will have more visually impressive moments spread across the season

Edit:... Or all this could mean that Hasbro has too much money on their hand and wants to open a new position to keep people working (oh i wish Corporate America was like that, prioritizing someone's ability to work than something else)
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Postby AlliterativeAxolotl (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:40 am

Clearly, it's for the episode where the CMC want to make their own animated movie :awesomedash:

It will be terrible. But cute. Cutible. Terricute. Cribble. Help

Maybe they do need him for fight scenes, though. That would be nice, it shows that they want to do it right.
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:44 am

Though, if experience with vague information has taught me anything like how there was going to be a new spin off targeted at an older audience like perhaps a high fantasy show but in fact is just a girl teen high school cartoon :-/ ... I will try not to be overly optimistic since he may be working on EqG and not FiM or there might not be a boost in animation in S4 after all
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:44 am

AlliterativeAxolotl wrote:Clearly, it's for the episode where the CMC want to make their own animated movie :awesomedash:

It will be terrible. But cute. Cutible. Terricute. Cribble. Help

My dream episode :-D

(In all seriousness, that WOULD be a great way to include traditional animation in this show)
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:45 am

What if... What if they're doing an episode about hand(hoof)-drawn animation and they want his expertise as a reference? (two posts have been made about this while I typed this, why do I keep needing to look at previews can't I just post this and feel on-time :twonk: )

Though maybe there's an art shift at some point (like Pinkie's thoughts in A Friend In Deed) and they use hand-drawn animation for it. Honestly, given how the show constantly pushes its animation to its limits in new directions, that'd be an entirely reasonable thing for them to do.

No matter what, though, it sounds like they're just plain upping the animation. Which still baffles me, because for pretty much every season I've basically said 'Okay, this is as good as the show's animation could possibly get' and then they make another episode to prove me wrong.
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Postby Timber72 (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:49 am

Yeah, first thing I thought of when you propose a one off use would be 'wacky deli'.

I don't know much about cartoon production, but is it possible they plan on even less tweening and way more original frames which could require such an employee?
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:50 am

Or it could just be they hired him for a particular episode or scene. I know a few shows like Naruto and Naruto Shippuden (whats the difference?) where the animation can look crap, okay, or freaking amazing :awesomedash: because of prioritization (last time i chekced, new episodes generally came weekly for the most part of the year) and hired animators

The fight scenes in particular are often handled by highly experienced and known animators who TV tokyo hire so the animation between the non-action and action/important episodes are night and day. Fluid, beautiful, and jaw dropping


43 minutes is okay animation, 1 hr (following episode) is excellent animation
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:53 am

For what its worth, this guy explains exposure sheets better than I could. He even has some examples from "Chowder".

One 11-minute episode of "Chowder" takes up about 226 pages of exposure sheets. So a 22-minute Pony episode would require about 450 pages of this stuff.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:02 am

One of the things on my bucket list for Pony is to get a piece of art from the show that I can frame on my wall. If they're making cels, then by Celestia I will have one.
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Postby Robotzor (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:06 am

Not sure how that industry works, but for a one-off moment like a single episode or aside wouldn't they contract that out as to not put him on the payroll?
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Postby FightingDreamer (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:07 am

Anime production is also SLIGHTLY different from a work standpoint; for instance, 9 times out of 10 the voices are recorded AFTER the animation rather than before. And there are other differences, though no obvious ones come to mind at the moment.
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Postby AlliterativeAxolotl (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:09 am

Robotzor wrote:Not sure how that industry works, but for a one-off moment like a single episode or aside wouldn't they contract that out as to not put him on the payroll?


In that case, all of S4 will be about Twilight, Princess Of The Entertainment Industry Of Equestria.

Which will also make her Princess Of The Stars, if you think about it. Huh!

She will convert Ponyville into something resembling the Warner Studios, and the CMC + Pinkie will get the job of creating cartoons.

It will be glorious. :-D
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Postby FightingDreamer (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:09 am

Also, random thought: it always astonishes me that even the crappiest looking shows have insane amounts of work put into them, even with the advent of Flash.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:11 am

I should add; there's another way of timing animation and that's storyboard slugging. That's when you time the action between the dialogues, and this is normally written right on the storyboards (see this). It's possible that Rich Arons is doing that instead of writing X-sheets.
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Postby Nissl (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:23 am

Well, I have no idea what this means for the animation, but I added it to the OP anyway. I really doubt they're going to scrap Flash, as the animation has won lots of praise and it's hard to see how it wouldn't make the budget explode, but who knows.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:28 am

It probably wouldn't make the budget THAT high as long as it's outsourced. Most 2D animations are done in South Korea.

Question is, if FiM did switch to traditional, then which studio should they contract it out to? Rough Draft in Seoul is probably the best one; their animation for Gravity Falls is pretty good.
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Postby Nissl (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:44 am

Oh, is Gravity Falls traditional? I really don't follow animation very closely. The GF animation is certainly sharp and on model, although if anything it looks "stiffer" than FiM to my untrained eyes.
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Postby Timber72 (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:47 am

I can't see them switching from flash when they've already developed a ton of tech for it and it's working just fine for them. Also, wouldn't we be hearing a ton of buzz about costs of studio acquisition rather than just 1 person being added to the roster?
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:48 am

Nissl wrote:Oh, is Gravity Falls traditional? I really don't follow animation very closely. The GF animation is certainly sharp and on model, although if anything it looks "stiffer" than FiM to my untrained eyes.

Yeah, "Gravity Falls" is traditional

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Twilight wrote:I can't see them switching from flash when they've already developed a ton of tech for it and it's working just fine for them. Also, wouldn't we be hearing a ton of buzz about costs of studio acquisition rather than just 1 person being added to the roster?

Animation industry is pretty strange, though. Sometimes they do dump everything they've done up to a point just to change things up.
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:53 am

"Princess Celestia, why does everything look so different all of a sudden?" :twonk:

"The world changes to reflect its princesses, Twilight. This is a new Equestria, created by your coronation." :pcstare:

"It's so..traditional." :-I
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:55 am

I'm hoping it's one of those "event happened, let's see all of the Mane 6's recounting of said event in their eyes" type of episodes.
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Postby Timber72 (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:58 am

Wayoshi wrote:I'm hoping it's one of those "event happened, let's see all of the Mane 6's recounting of said event in their eyes" type of episodes.


I'd LOVE this. There was an episode of 'Ahhh! Real Monsters' that did this, and Krums scenario literally killed me every time. I'm a ghost posting here. I have a feeling Pinkie's and Dash's would do the same.
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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:59 am

Kitty Kate wrote:What if... What if they're doing an episode about hand(hoof)-drawn animation and they want his expertise as a reference?


:excite: All right, girls. We've each had a week to work on our assignments. Now let's put this cartoon together!
:ponynet: Let's see.. Pinkie! You had the cold open. Let's have a look.
:-/ These are in crayon. On construction paper. :twonk: We can't use these! Look, this character jumps two inches between frames!
:cheese: It's kinda hard to draw without a horn, Twilight.
:facehoof: Ugghhh. Okay, AJ, you had the title sequence. Let's have a look.


Image These.. these are amazing! Look at those beautiful watercolors! I didn't know you could paint like that.
:twasnothin: Aw, shucks. It's just a little hobby of mine.
:ponynet: Rarity! You had Scene One: Library. Let's see it.


:facehoof: Rarity, this scene was supposed to be two minutes long. This is only ten seconds of material.
:gonkity: It's the dresses, Twilight! There's so many little details!
Image Well maybe you should have made simpler designs, then.
:wat: Simpler.. designs? I don't follow.
:facehoof: Ugghhh, do we at least have the theme song?
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:01 am

Although i dont see Traditinal animation being used at this point unless Hasbro decides to put Top Draw in charge of EqG and FiM in the hands of a Cel animation company... I really want see if ponies were done in cel like what Faust probably wanted (i still love her sketches :allears: ). The main comic plus sketches by the storyboarders also look interesting if animated

But yeah, having an episode with different animation would be cool (Remember Kids Next Door and how all five of the character's recounting of the story had different styles, like Dragon Ball Z, CGI, class comic book, a simple crayon drawing, and a sleek jazzy look styles)

Off topic kinda: Was Foster's Home hand drawn or flash animated?
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:03 am

AppleCobbler44 wrote:Off topic kinda: Was Foster's Home hand drawn or flash animated?

Flash. Most of it was done in-house at Cartoon Network Studios in Burbank, with a handful contracted out to Ireland.
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Postby Robotzor (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:03 am

Chaos Sonic wrote:epic


Watch out Scuderia, you have a new challenger.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:43 am

A bit late, but...

Discord wrote:"Princess Celestia, why does everything look so different all of a sudden?" :twonk:

"The world changes to reflect its princesses, Twilight. This is a new Equestria, created by your coronation." :pcstare:

"It's so..traditional." :-I

I want this to happen if they do change the animation style.

It'd be great if Hasbro did increase the show's budget to change to traditional animation. You can do alot more if you're drawing key frame rather than manipulating digital puppets.
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:47 am

Mr. Big wrote:A bit late, but...


I want this to happen if they do change the animation style.

It'd be great if Hasbro did increase the show's budget to change to traditional animation. You can do alot more if you're drawing key frame rather than manipulating digital puppets.


Have you ever seen fan animation of FiM done in cel? OR how bout have you even done a short clip of FiM if done in Cel? :allears:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:52 am

AppleCobbler44 wrote:Have you ever seen fan animation of FiM done in cel? OR how bout have you even done a short clip of FiM if done in Cel? :allears:

I've seen a few fan animations that was obviously drawn by hand. Obviously they vary (drawn animation is really hard), but some are pretty good.

I've contemplated on recreating a scene from FiM. Just for fun :-)
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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:12 am

Robotzor wrote:Watch out Scuderia, you have a new challenger.


:modesty: Naw, I don't put out nearly enough good stuff to rival Scuds. Wouldn't have been able to do it without those emote libraries he posted somewhere, either.
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Postby Killing Vector (?) » Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:54 pm

Fresh off the twitters:
Dave Polsky wrote:I'm confirmed for Season 4, fyi. Also confirmed: lots of sweet sweet pony goodness around the corner. Just a whole bunch of months away...

:getinkie:
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