Off-Season General Show Chat

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Re: Off-Season General Show Chat

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:18 am

Yeah, even if Lauren Faust were still running it it would have inevitably run out of gas sooner or later on the "surprise and delight" front. And a huge part of this show's appeal is in surprising the audience, whether in the "wow that's cute/clever, pegasi stomp the rain out of clouds" sense, or the "Holy shit, My Little Pony is good now?" sense.

There's only so much worldbuilding you can introduce in the first season or two, the introductory period when you're revealing how the show works; and beyond that period, if you spring new surprises on people, if they're significant enough to impact the world at all you ask yourself "Well, why didn't we know about this sooner?" and it feels like something tacked on after the fact (which it generally is). And yet you still have to try, because a TV show is like a biological colony—if it's not expanding, it's dying. You can't just reach a certain plateau and tell banal day-to-day stories for the rest of the show's life, not when its early charm came from learning new things about the world. And yet that's all they can do the longer the show goes on.

Basically what I'm saying is, I'm all for more :ponydrugs: , but it probably would have been a best-case scenario creatively for it to have ended after S3. Or even earlier.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:54 am

I think the main issue with me where they dropped the ball is that every episode seems to focus on the mane six, spike, or the CMC. With a few episodes here and there that focus on all mane six (But even those tend to have one or two ponies more prominant.) Why this is an issue, is that I feel like they've missed a chance to expand more on the rest of the characters.

A good comparison I think would be the Simpsons. By the time it had this many episodes, you had many episodes that heavily featured a side character and while a member of the Simpson family was always involved, it featured and followed a secondary character and really let you get to know them. Moe, Chief Wiggum, Burns, Mrs Krabbaple, and so on and so forth.

Pony has had very few episodes like that. Discord has certainly gotten this treatment, and Cadance kind of did in Three's a Crowd, Luna in Luna Eclipsed and Do Princesses Dream, and of course Big Mac and Granny Smith, but that's really all that I can think of. The most we got was Slice of Life, but even then I don't feel like we got to really know the side characters that well in it. It was really more of a 22 short stories about Ponyville kind of thing (again referencing the Simpsons.)

Over 100 episodes in and we haven't gotten an episode focused around Celestia. We barely know anything about the Cakes, Mayor Mare, Shining Armor, etc. I think the show would be a lot better if they gave more focus on all the other ponies they know. Sure, they've all had their moments, but I think there is much more potential for more interesting storylines revolving around them. We get a couple episodes like this per season, but that's about it.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:10 am

Master_Twig wrote:I think the main issue with me where they dropped the ball is that every episode seems to focus on the mane six, spike, or the CMC. With a few episodes here and there that focus on all mane six (But even those tend to have one or two ponies more prominant.) Why this is an issue, is that I feel like they've missed a chance to expand more on the rest of the characters.

A good comparison I think would be the Simpsons. By the time it had this many episodes, you had many episodes that heavily featured a side character and while a member of the Simpson family was always involved, it featured and followed a secondary character and really let you get to know them. Moe, Chief Wiggum, Burns, Mrs Krabbaple, and so on and so forth.

Pony has had very few episodes like that. Discord has certainly gotten this treatment, and Cadance kind of did in Three's a Crowd, Luna in Luna Eclipsed and Do Princesses Dream, and of course Big Mac and Granny Smith, but that's really all that I can think of. The most we got was Slice of Life, but even then I don't feel like we got to really know the side characters that well in it. It was really more of a 22 short stories about Ponyville kind of thing (again referencing the Simpsons.)

Over 100 episodes in and we haven't gotten an episode focused around Celestia. We barely know anything about the Cakes, Mayor Mare, Shining Armor, etc. I think the show would be a lot better if they gave more focus on all the other ponies they know. Sure, they've all had their moments, but I think there is much more potential for more interesting storylines revolving around them. We get a couple episodes like this per season, but that's about it.


Agreed. Pony has a ton of untapped resources in its secondary characters, more than enough to carry a season in themselves. Octavia, Bon Bon, Lyra, Diamond Tiara, Silver Spoon, Harshie and so on. Maybe it's time for less emphasis on the Mane 6 and a little more on the second tier.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:07 am

There is certainly more story dynamic to be had with the mane six and I feel if they ever run out of things to do with them they can always start to fall back on the secondary characters. But I feel the problem might be more so with Hasbro then the story writers. The show is about selling toys, Hasbro seems to only want to sell mane six toys so that is what they mainly focus on. I feel that was the same problem they had with Transformers Prime. They heavily develop less then a dozen characters in each show to promote those toys then have an episode or two to show off a new character to sell that toy before ending the series and starting fresh with a new batch of toys. This formula normally works for selling toys but :ponydrugs: threw a monkey wrench into the works and made them stretch out the show further then they planned for. A show this long is really new territory for them. Maybe they want their own version of The Simpsons but haven't figured out how to make it work yet.

I think the best part about the show is that it is so big and expansive that fans can easily emerge themselves into this fantasy world without it feeling out of place. You can write an entire story without including the mane six and it would feel right at home. With other shows you have to include the main characters in your works or it doesn't seem like that world at all, with this show your imagination is free.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:18 am

Master_Twig wrote:Over 100 episodes in and we haven't gotten an episode focused around Celestia. We barely know anything about the Cakes, Mayor Mare, Shining Armor, etc. I think the show would be a lot better if they gave more focus on all the other ponies they know. Sure, they've all had their moments, but I think there is much more potential for more interesting storylines revolving around them. We get a couple episodes like this per season, but that's about it.

I agree, but unless they're angling to continue the show after the movie, I suspect we won't see much growth from the supporting characters. The past two seasons have been about the main cast preaching the gospel to the rest of the country, and they do it by traveling to new places instead of focusing on recurring characters.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:38 pm

For those who don't go to the spoilers subforum, Season 6 will begin in May.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 7:41 pm

Dear Discovery Family, please don't start S6 over Memorial Day weekend. :ohgawd:
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:04 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Dear Discovery Family, please don't start S6 over Memorial Day weekend. :ohgawd:


They will, because Discovery Family is completely incompetent.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 12:26 am

The S5 rewatch in the Pasture is about to start. We'll be watching episodes 1-4 tonight, so feel free to hop in. http://octagonalpasture.com/r/sereneplural
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:42 am

Any chance for more male development in S6, or will it still be mostly about females?
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 3:12 am

Didn't you already ask that?
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:22 pm

The main characters are girls. The show doesn't focus enough on its side characters to develop them. And allow me to adress the elephant in the room, if the main characters were guys no one would bat an eyelid at the underdeveloped female characters.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 2:34 pm

VGAddict wrote:Any chance for more male development in S6, or will it still be mostly about females?

As I said in your other thread about this, I doubt it. We might get another episode like Brotherhooves Social, which starred Big Mac and Apple Bloom and was largely about how he felt towards his family (though this message was largely lost due to the unfortunate way in which that episode told its story, but that's a different issue), but with Shining Armor and Twilight Sparkle and/or Spike. That's about it, though.

Maybe that rumor of us meeting Fluttershy's brother will come true?
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Postby Discord (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:49 pm

This is a show made (in significant part) by women, for girls, with a predominantly female cast, who live in a matriarchy, with feminist overtones.

So, the answer to your question, no.

Here's a question for you: why are you asking whether this female-oriented show will feature more male character development?

You ask a lot of one-sentence questions without actually providing context for your thoughts or curiosity. Tell us how you feel/think.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:26 pm

I mean, I hope Spike gets an episode, does that count?
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:00 pm

Discord wrote:This is a show made (in significant part) by women, for girls, with a predominantly female cast, who live in a matriarchy, with feminist overtones.

So, the answer to your question, no.

Here's a question for you: why are you asking whether this female-oriented show will feature more male character development?

You ask a lot of one-sentence questions without actually providing context for your thoughts or curiosity. Tell us how you feel/think.


To make it equal. The males should get equal development.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:02 pm

VGAddict wrote:
To make it equal. The males should get equal development.

Do you feel that the show is worse off due to the overwhelming majority of its main characters being female?
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:10 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Do you feel that the show is worse off due to the overwhelming majority of its main characters being female?


Yes. I think the boys who watch the show should have someone to relate to.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:18 pm

The thing is, pretty much all other children's media has casts where the characters are all male (or almost all male, with a single token girl whose role is to be a girl), and other shows for girls are usually pretty lackluster. That's one reason why FiM is special, because Lauren Faust refused to create a crappy girls' cartoon and was also willing to stand up to a lot of meddling executives who wanted to make it crappy. With the way things are, gender-balancing its cast would just drag it down, especially seeing as we're about to start the sixth season and any main characters added now would be pretty lame in comparison to the ten we already have. Maybe the cartoons for future generations of MLP can have a more balanced cast, but I would rather see male-heavy shows fix their own problems first.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:20 pm

I think the show is doing well with its male characters. Consider Big Mac, who for the first few seasons said little besides "Eeyup". And in Brotherhooves Social this past season, his talk with Applebloom at the end was as good as any I've seen in the series. I think he's definitely broken out as a meaningful male character in a female oriented show.

Spike and Shining Armor have had thier moments too. The balance is good, I think. :eeyup:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:20 pm

VGAddict wrote:
Yes. I think the boys who watch the show should have someone to relate to.


I tend to think that's a perniciously dumb assumption that studio execs keep making. "Gotta have someone for X to relate to!" While it's true that it can be very helpful to have an audience-avatar POV character who things happen to, it is by no means a requirement that such a POV character needs to resemble the "typical audience member" in any way.

UP was great even though the main character was an old man; I don't think anyone here had any trouble "relating to" him. I don't think any men or boys in the audience failed to enjoy Aliens or Kill Bill because the main character was a woman. And if you think MLP:FiM is missing a trick by not attracting enough of a male audience... um... I'm not sure how to finish that sentence.
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Postby PhoolCat (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 9:41 pm

Why can't little boys relate to any of the Mane 6?

Answer: they can and do.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:15 pm

PhoolCat wrote:Why can't little boys relate to any of the Mane 6?

Answer: they can and do.

Eh, I really don't like this because you could easily twist it around and say "Why can't little girls relate to any of [insert male-dominated cast of some other children's show]?" Representation is a very useful thing, it's just that there's a fuckton more of it out there for boys than there is for girls, so we shouldn't take away the representation that girls do have.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:15 pm

Hopefully a full weekend of Andy Price art tweets awaits us.

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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:16 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Eh, I really don't like this because you could easily twist it around and say "Why can't little girls relate to any of [insert male-dominated cast of some other children's show]?" Representation is a very useful thing, it's just that there's a fuckton more of it out there for boys than there is for girls, so we shouldn't take away the representation that girls do have.


Yeah, that's a better point than mine. There's no reason to be wringing our hands over whether boys are represented enough in MLP:FiM. They've already got 95% of the market catering to them; if anything we should be actively rooting for less media with obvious "relatability" for young white males. Unless we want to ensure they own every single thing without exception.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:41 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Eh, I really don't like this because you could easily twist it around and say "Why can't little girls relate to any of [insert male-dominated cast of some other children's show]?" Representation is a very useful thing, it's just that there's a fuckton more of it out there for boys than there is for girls, so we shouldn't take away the representation that girls do have.


They can, and often do. The reason a female dominated cast is good is because representation is good, not because girls need to see a female character to relate, it's so they can see, say, a female character who does rodeo shit and go 'oh so I'm not a weirdo for liking that' even if they already were able to identify with male characters who liked that stuff before.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:55 am

Headless Horse wrote:
Yeah, that's a better point than mine. There's no reason to be wringing our hands over whether boys are represented enough in MLP:FiM. They've already got 95% of the market catering to them; if anything we should be actively rooting for less media with obvious "relatability" for young white males. Unless we want to ensure they own every single thing without exception.

It feels like if the show was horrible no one would be asking for more male representation just like they normally don't with girl shows in general. It is like there is this mind set once it reaches a certain entertainment value then it should be for boys. FiM clearly demonstrates that isn't the case nor should it be.
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Postby Pocket (?) » Sun Feb 14, 2016 6:58 am

Soft Snow wrote:It feels like if the show was horrible no one would be asking for more male representation just like they normally don't with girl shows in general. It is like there is this mind set once it reaches a certain entertainment value then it should be for boys.

Mainly because the entertainment industry has traditionally had little to no respect for girls' intelligence or taste, and tailored what they make for them with that in mind.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:32 pm

The S5 rewatch will be continuing tonight at 7:30 Eastern in the Octagonal Pasture. That's eight hours from now.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Thu Feb 25, 2016 3:57 am

Captain Sunshine wrote:The main characters are girls. The show doesn't focus enough on its side characters to develop them. And allow me to adress the elephant in the room, if the main characters were guys no one would bat an eyelid at the underdeveloped female characters.

The show doesn't even focus enough on it's main characters to develop them. It's a children's toy commercial in the format of a cartoon, development without a new toy is the last thought on anyone's mind.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 3:43 am

I'm not sure about that. They seem pretty well developed as you can get for characters. Take The Simpsons for example. That show has over 300 episodes, yet how much do we know about Marge? Who are her friends? Where does she like to hang out? There is a lot left to explore. The ponies seem pretty fleshed out. We know their personalities, interests, back stories, ambitions, and there is still so much more to learn about them.

Yes, it is meant to sell toys, but that doesn't stop them from telling a good story as well.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:42 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:The show doesn't even focus enough on it's main characters to develop them. It's a children's toy commercial in the format of a cartoon, development without a new toy is the last thought on anyone's mind.


Pretty sure there's a whole bunch of writers on FiM who'd disagree with that.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:33 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
Pretty sure there's a whole bunch of writers on FiM who'd disagree with that.


I don't think if it was just a toy ad anyone would care about it. Not even the weirdo perverts.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:48 am

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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:20 am

That was a fun a rewatch. It was my first time. Shame I could only experience a portion of it. It was a very good idea to have these. You are a smart person, Fizzbuzz.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:24 am

I'll be running it again next week, starting at 7:30 EST. I'll keep going at least until we've watched all of S5 again, then perhaps something else. Right now I'm thinking of running all of S1 after S5 is done, since it's been a long time since I've seen those early episodes, and I imagine that a fair number of folks haven't seen them in a while either.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:50 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
Pretty sure there's a whole bunch of writers on FiM who'd disagree with that.


Except they're not Hasbro higher-ups who really see over everything. For example, consider how heavily edited Larson's original MMC script was for the sake of toys. The writers are not the head of anything. It's a toy commercial first and foremost.

Captain Rufus wrote:
I don't think if it was just a toy ad anyone would care about it. Not even the weirdo perverts.


Weirdo perverts don't care for anything, and people can still care for toy ads. I'm just saying that FIM is nothing but a tool, not even a story first and foremost.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 4:13 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:Except they're not Hasbro higher-ups who really see over everything. For example, consider how heavily edited Larson's original MMC script was for the sake of toys. The writers are not the head of anything. It's a toy commercial first and foremost.

MMC was heavily edited because they decided at the last minute to continue the show after the third season. Here's the video where he talks about it:


The revisions he takes issue with were changes made by Meghan McCarthy or someone else to the particular framing device he wanted to use, which has nothing to do with toys.

And, really, citing the episode where Twilight becomes a princess as an example of the show having no character development is kind of amazing.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:35 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
Except they're not Hasbro higher-ups who really see over everything. For example, consider how heavily edited Larson's original MMC script was for the sake of toys. The writers are not the head of anything. It's a toy commercial first and foremost.


Oh sure. I was just making the point that there are people who care, and for whom developing characters and telling stories is their main concern.

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
Weirdo perverts don't care for anything, and people can still care for toy ads. I'm just saying that FIM is nothing but a tool, not even a story first and foremost.


That's an interesting point, and I think the answer is both yes and no. The show is absolutely intended by Hasbro to shift toys, but the people making it aren't in advertising, they're in television. They're basically making a TV show that has an ulterior motive more than they're making an advert.

If you asked anyone involved in the production of the actual show what their job was, I'd bet money that none of them would say "to sell toys".
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:46 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
Except they're not Hasbro higher-ups who really see over everything. For example, consider how heavily edited Larson's original MMC script was for the sake of toys. The writers are not the head of anything. It's a toy commercial first and foremost.


Yea, I've heard it straight from Larson's mouth the editing was because he wrote a series finale, and whoops! Season 4! So it went from Pandora's box to the Journal and a whoooole bunch of other stuff. Cadance exists because they wanted a pretty pink Princess since Celestia was officially whiteish again, and hey, Royal Wedding, but Changelings weren't ever a Hasbro thing - and you can get Chrysalis toys now. Ditto Trixie. Ditto Derpy/Muffins, or Daring Do. All those were show first, merchandise second when Hasbro realized they were popular and potential moneymakers.

The show does a lot of driving for the toy end. It's not just one way.
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