How Pony is Formed: Production and Business Thread

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Re: How Pony is Formed: Production and Business Thread

Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:48 am

They just got past the contract drama (VA bans at pony cons) a few weeks ago, which had supposedly prevented them from starting voice recording, so if they've just recently started then I guess this means we'll be seeing Snips early into S4, which probably means a CMC episode.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:17 am

Contract drama? What contract drama?
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:37 am

Dexanth wrote:Contract drama? What contract drama?


Hasbro got tired of spending the time and money to vet the hundreds of requests they received for MLP talent to attend their events. Most of the time the people running the events were disorganized buffoons, or the content wasn't something hasbro would allow their talent to be associated with, so when MLP was coming up on a new contract period(season 4), they wanted to write a ban on all pony exclusive conventions into the contracts. You might have noticed that until 2 weeks ago, the only people attending Unicon were Strong, AKR, De Lancie, and Ingram. The final decision is as follows:

MLP VAs can attend the established conventions, namely Bronycon, EQLA, Unicon, and EFNW, but when it comes to other events, the agents for the VAs must vouch for the event and the people running it before Hasbro is willing to do their due dilligence.

edit: Hasbro's midset was that we'd watch the show regardless of whether or not the talent attended a con, and it was costing them money, and they weren't getting a dime back from the cons. They saw zero need to continue shelling out cash for no reward.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:54 am

Huh! Is this all written up anywhere? It sounds interesting to read more in-depth on.
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Postby ComradeCosmobot (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:55 am

I'm surprised Unicon was grandfathered in given that it hasn't happened yet, and I'm having trouble seeing them having long-term viability due to location.
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:01 am

Dexanth wrote:Huh! Is this all written up anywhere? It sounds interesting to read more in-depth on.


the Bronyville Podcast did a whole segment on it in late December, but that was long before the final decision came down. The info comes to us through unnamed sources to certain members of the pony news community. I doubt it's actually written anywhere.

ComradeCosmobot wrote:I'm surprised Unicon was grandfathered in given that it hasn't happened yet, and I'm having trouble seeing them having long-term viability due to location.

I wasn't aware their location was an issue, unless that hotel is closing down. As it stands Unicon has something like 4x the floor space as Midwestria, checking in at 60,000 sq. ft.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:15 am

Cosmo believes that it being located in Vegas is a negative given its close proximity to EQLA.

I do not believe this is an issue.
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Postby Discord (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:19 am

I'm not sure if this matters to Hasbro, but I'm sure the show staff don't mind having some fun in Vegas either. :gotcha:
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:27 am

Discord wrote:I'm not sure if this matters to Hasbro, but I'm sure the show staff don't mind having some fun in Vegas either. :gotcha:


this is actually why the VAs fought to keep the conventions. For them it's a paid vacation where they're lavished with gifts and praise for 3 days.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:32 am

Reminds me of when the universities that administrate the observatories on Mauna Kea invested in a bunch of high-speed trunk Internet hookups to the top of the mountain.

:excite: "Good news, you sciencey guys! Now you don't have to go to Hawaii anymore to do your observation work!"

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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 8:38 pm

Headless Horse wrote:Reminds me of when the universities that administrate the observatories on Mauna Kea invested in a bunch of high-speed trunk Internet hookups to the top of the mountain.

:excite: "Good news, you sciencey guys! Now you don't have to go to Hawaii anymore to do your observation work!"

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Ya, unfortunately money talks the loudest to them, but I've got to give credit where it's due, they did come to a very reasonable final decision, just like with Derpy. Heck, I think we might even see Derpy again in S4.
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Postby Quanta (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:00 pm

I have to wonder if, given how rushed S3's been, perhaps they just haven't had time for Derpy gags this season.
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Postby ComradeCosmobot (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:05 pm

EquestriaGuy wrote:

Ya, unfortunately money talks the loudest to them, but I've got to give credit where it's due, they did come to a very reasonable final decision, just like with Derpy. Heck, I think we might even see Derpy again in S4.


I wouldn't be surprised. Her lack of presence in S3 is quite compatible with the fact that S3 was in the heights of production during Derpygate. So the natural response would be to eliminate her altogether, which we've seen. Of course, since then, Derpy has been "accepted by Hasbro" (per SDCC panel) and we've clearly seen her on the comic covers, so Hasbro hasn't disowned the poor girl so thoroughly as we might have thought. But it would be far too late to add her to storyboards and background scenes for S3 by the time that Hasbro mellowed.

Meanwhile, we have MarketingThrowaway's claims being taken as canon. I am still amazed at how little the guy says that's new, and as a result he gets promoted as the second coming.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:02 pm

The guy that posted that confirmed it was at least third-hand information and speculation on his part. I'm on my phone so no links, but it's in the comments of Cosmo's link above.
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:01 pm

Wylie wrote:The guy that posted that confirmed it was at least third-hand information and speculation on his part. I'm on my phone so no links, but it's in the comments of Cosmo's link above.


AKA bullshit. Only a fan would react to Spoilers the way he did. The prejudice poured out of every single word in that block of text. Then there's this call to arms. What kind of professional would rabble rouse and cause grief for THEIR CLIENT. Hasbro is paying them to make ponies, no mature adult would act this way.

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Postby Dexanth (?) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:07 pm

There's plenty of examples of people acting that way. Most do not (Though arguably in a lot of those cases, it's due to an imbalanced power dynamic - speak out, lose your job, don't get food on the table).

Like, the most famous example I can think of is when Bill Cosby flat out came and said 'Leonard Part 6 sucks, I'm ashamed I was part of it, don't go see it'.

Or the whole blowup with NBC & Conan O'Brien a few years back.

Or Whedon & Alien Resurrection.

Or the drama between Dan Harmon & Chevy Chase last year.

Or heck, Sibsy going 'I can't recommend the Gameloft pony game, it's a ripoff'. That was just, what, a week or two ago?
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:11 pm

To add to the list, Lauren Faust hated "Quest for Camelot", despite animating on it.

And, of course, there's John K. bad-mouthing 1980s cartoons, even though he worked on them.
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:15 pm

The reddit was not legit, surely that's obvious.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:19 pm

Mr. Big wrote:To add to the list, Lauren Faust hated "Quest for Camelot", despite animating on it.

And, of course, there's John K. bad-mouthing 1980s cartoons, even though he worked on them.


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Postby Dexanth (?) » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:59 pm

EquestriaGuy wrote:The reddit was not legit, surely that's obvious.


Nobody is really disputing that at this point - the contention is that there are plenty of self-respecting mature adults who do in fact criticize the hand that feeds them, whether in the moment or afterwards.
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:39 am

Dexanth wrote:
Nobody is really disputing that at this point - the contention is that there are plenty of self-respecting mature adults who do in fact criticize the hand that feeds them, whether in the moment or afterwards.


Those were people with reputations at stake, whose names were in the public. What makes this different is it's supposed to look like some mysterious insider who is revealing the truth of the horrors he lives with everyday, as if he escaped from North Korea. We agree it's fake, but the way it's presented is in a different manner than just saying something sucks.
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:33 pm

Does anyone have a screencap of the deleted tweet from yesterday where Rebecca Dart said she just finished working on MLP S4? She's got one up right now saying it's in good hands, meaning even though she's been working on S4 design for a few months now, there's more that needs to be done. This could be the next sign of a 26 episode season.
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:05 pm

EquestriaGuy wrote:Does anyone have a screencap of the deleted tweet from yesterday where Rebecca Dart said she just finished working on MLP S4? She's got one up right now saying it's in good hands, meaning even though she's been working on S4 design for a few months now, there's more that needs to be done. This could be the next sign of a 26 episode season.


Hmm... interesting. I believe she's a character designer? And she was the one who designed Chrysalis
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Postby EquestriaGuy (?) » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:22 pm

AppleCobbler44 wrote:
Hmm... interesting. I believe she's a character designer? And she was the one who designed Chrysalis
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Yes, and she was on the later half of S3.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:53 am

Holy high resolution photo Batman :starity:
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Postby Grue (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:24 am

Reading her twitter, I found this insightful inside look into MLP production process.

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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 8:31 am

Grue wrote:Reading her twitter, I found this insightful inside look into MLP production process.

Animation.mov
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Postby agradify (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:51 am

Grue wrote:Reading her twitter, I found this insightful inside look into MLP production process.

This is highly informative and should be a special feature on the DVDs.
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Postby ComradeCosmobot (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:25 pm

So, as someone here might know better than I: Is FiM animated frame-by-frame (e.g. on the twos)? Or is it animated smoothly on an infinite framerate and then decimated down to 24fps or 29.97fps?
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Postby doodlesplat (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:57 pm

It feels* like the software is doing the motion where appropriate (pans, zooms, effects), but many bits of animation (expressions, complex actions) are still produced as 24 individual frames per second. So overall, it is at a fixed 24fps.

*a layman's guess
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:20 pm

Again, not an expert on this, but having worked on Sony Vegas with pony videos, Season 2 and 3 seem to be fixed on 23.976 frames per second, at least on the iTunes release. On the Hub, I recall it being 29.976 frames per second and there is a slight difference between the two.

The Hub TV rip is noticeably better when panning (what's a pan?) whereas the iTunes release chugs and honestly less comfortable to watch during these pans. There was also a better fluidity and smoothness in the animation when the characters are doing something quickly (i.e. during Crystal Empire, Pinkie Pie's "Oooo... Pretty" scene and animation is more smooth in the Hub rip).

I believe it's because of the 3:1 3:2 pulldown, which creates new frames (basically, by converting 23.976 to TV which is 29.97, you get more frames). But Mr Big probably knows more
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Though, i have heard that the standard for cartoons is 12 fps. Maybe MLP is like that but converted upwards? :pinkieshrug: Again, Mr Big probably knows more
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 5:25 pm

Standard is 24 fps, although due to time and money animation is rarely animated at that frame rate. Generally they do 12 drawings per second, with each drawing exposed twice.

In other cases, it's less. Anime is often in threes (each drawing exposed three times).
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Postby ComradeCosmobot (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:56 pm

Mr. Big wrote:Standard is 24 fps, although due to time and money animation is rarely animated at that frame rate. Generally they do 12 drawings per second, with each drawing exposed twice.

In other cases, it's less. Anime is often in threes (each drawing exposed three times).


So FiM is animated at 24fps on the twos (i.e. effectively animated at 12fps) and then run through 2:3 pulldown to get to 29.97 just like other animation? That is to say, there's nothing different about its framerate compared to standard animation?
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:25 pm

AppleCobbler44 wrote:There was also a better fluidity and smoothness in the animation when the characters are doing something quickly (i.e. during Crystal Empire, Pinkie Pie's "Oooo... Pretty" scene and animation is more smooth in the Hub rip).

Which Pinkie scene is this? I'm having a little trouble finding it.

ComradeCosmobot wrote:So FiM is animated at 24fps on the twos (i.e. effectively animated at 12fps) and then run through 2:3 pulldown to get to 29.97 just like other animation? That is to say, there's nothing different about its framerate compared to standard animation?

iTunes is 23.97, and the TV broadcast is at 29.97 with pulldown frames from what I've seen, so I don't think there's a special TV version of the show at a higher framerate.

There are definitely scenes that are on twos, but it's worth remembering that Flash shows are a different beast than traditional animation. You can have a lot of canned walk cycles and tweening without having to draw every frame. For example, looking at the opening of Read It And Weep, every frame has someone moving.
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 7:32 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:Which Pinkie scene is this? I'm having a little trouble finding it.



Sorry, it was the scene when Pinkie was in her spy outfit, and she goes: "Ooooo... Night vision-y (not 'pretty')." I think Rainbow Dash's flapping of wings looked more fluid too. But it's been a long time since I compared the two versions and my mind might have been tricking me at the time.
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Postby InC (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:28 pm

MLP is animated on ones and/or on twos, on a case by case basis: the same scene, and even the same character can have different symbols animated at a different rate . What is done at 24 fps include walk/run/wingflap and other reusable animations, special effects (magic, smoke, dust, zip lines, etc), camera pans, a good portion of mane movements, some head rotations I think, parts that need the extra frame rate (fast movements, Spike's "Alas, it doesn't come cheap" in the last episode), and most importantly, tweening. The rest is animated on twos, which surprisingly ends up being most of show.

I guess that would explain why this show doesn't feel nearly as "tweeny" as other Flash shows, even the ones with an obviously bigger budget (like Wakfu :bluh: ) : seeing how much of Pony is animated on twos, it looks like they just don't do much tweening at all. From my completely uninformed point of view, it looks like Wakfu is mostly drawn traditionally and saves money by letting Flash do the in-betweens, while DHX and Top Draw capitalize on reusability instead, with a minimalistic visual design to allow highly functional and versatile puppets that they can afford to animate properly. It's a shame that, not counting writers and VAs, we don't hear much from DHX itself about the production.
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Postby BattyBovine (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:41 pm

I think doing the show purely without tweens would take way too long. It's more likely that they use tweens, then convert to keyframes on one's and delete the keys they don't need, or use the Tween2Keys plugin or something similar. They can then tweak the keys they have left to their satisfaction. At least that's how I'd do it if I were them.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Sun Feb 03, 2013 10:51 pm

I imagine a lot of what makes Ponies work is proprietary knowledge to DHX and they'd probably be unlikely to share it. :fluttersmith:
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Postby BattyBovine (?) » Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:10 am

kefkafloyd wrote:I imagine a lot of what makes Ponies work is proprietary knowledge to DHX and they'd probably be unlikely to share it. :fluttersmith:
Well, we at least know that they use Flash 8, and they and Top Draw are listed at the bottom of this page, so we can assume that they use those plugins. Beyond that, I do wish we could learn more about it, but aside from what can be gleaned from decompiled Flash games I doubt we will ever learn their secrets. Which is a shame.
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Postby Robotzor (?) » Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:36 am

kefkafloyd wrote:I imagine a lot of what makes Ponies work is proprietary knowledge to DHX and they'd probably be unlikely to share it. :fluttersmith:


Sparkle dust, friendship and a whole lot of magic, I assume. That's what I read from a copycat recipe, anyway.
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