S04E25-26: Twilight's Kingdom

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Re: S04E25-26: Twilight's Kingdom

Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 1:44 am

Bravinim wrote:That castle is still probably going to function as a library anyway.

Does anyone really think Twilight isn't going to fill up her new place with with mountains and mountains of books?

Oh yeah, there will definitely be a library of some kind at the castle. It's a Twilight thing to do.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 1:45 am

Tailspin wrote:
People bring up how the big fight scene is something to show to people who refuse to watch the show, but you know what? If someone showed that to me and told me to check it out, I would humor them with a "sure", but never follow up on it.

That fight is everything I've ever seen, right down to the typical "superhero/villian gets punched straight through a building/mountain" routine. There is nothing in that fight scene that tells me that this is something I should watch or that this show has something unique to offer me, it tells me this is something I've seen before. I would say the same about the entire episode, it's a by the numbers episode that's all flash and no substance. The characters are forgotten in favor of its epic plot. Sure, there's some flash of character with Fluttershy and Discord, but really all that gets lost in the show moving from one big event to the other and collapsing under its own weight. In the end there isn't anything uniquely "pony" about this episode, it could be any cartoon with humans or talking animals. It's just a thing that exists.


I've never got that kind of stuff. I mean, so what if My Little Pony has a fight scene? Any show can have that. In fact, one of the reasons I watched it was because I was looking for something cute and cuddly to watch, not "Wow, this can be badass!" It's why I'm not so fond of constantly having the "Equestria is in danger" premiers and finales. Because honestly, the "action/adventure" parts of the show is one of the last reasons I watch My Little Pony.

Come to think of it, that's probably why I'm really hesitant to watch premiers/finales over anything, as it happened to me since the Season 3 premier, and every one I keep putting off watching. It's because I'm not interested in this kind of stuff. And it makes me almost feel guilty because each time I have people tell me "Oh you really need to see it!"
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 1:47 am

Kronos wrote:
*raises hand*

Step back and ask why the hell Twi would go away from her adorkableness.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 1:52 am

You know, hearing all the Princesses sing made me squee so hard. :allears:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 1:54 am

Tailspin wrote:
People bring up how the big fight scene is something to show to people who refuse to watch the show, but you know what? If someone showed that to me and told me to check it out, I would humor them with a "sure", but never follow up on it.

That fight is everything I've ever seen, right down to the typical "superhero/villian gets punched straight through a building/mountain" routine. There is nothing in that fight scene that tells me that this is something I should watch or that this show has something unique to offer me, it tells me this is something I've seen before. I would say the same about the entire episode, it's a by the numbers episode that's all flash and no substance. The characters are forgotten in favor of its epic plot. Sure, there's some flash of character with Fluttershy and Discord, but really all that gets lost in the show moving from one big event to the other and collapsing under its own weight. In the end there isn't anything uniquely "pony" about this episode, it could be any cartoon with humans or talking animals. It's just a thing that exists.


Though I'm the one who made the "show the clip out of context to nonbelievers" comment, I want to clarify that I don't think it's a good thing to do. Just that you know people will do it anyway.

For my part I totally agree that such epicness does distract (if not detract) from the show's "heart", as it were. Tears really captured it well:

Tears wrote:There's an inherent absurdity to the more epic stuff in MLP that I sort of love, that this is a proprietress of a small fashion boutique or an outgoing bakery assistant trying to save the world (also they are pastel horses), and when that gets lost entirely and they're just throwing down with a supervillain like there is nothing ridiculous about that at all, it can feel more generic.

The fight between Twilight and Tirek was awesome and the landscapes surrounding it were incredible - like when Twilight comes ploughing through the earth and everything around her is black and red and blasted - but I preferred the rainbow ponies section just because the colour scheme and the music shifted back from the sturm and drang of the previous scene to a kind of symphonic MLP theme and pastel colours, and all of a sudden we are in an episode of My Little Pony and some brightly coloured horses are throwing down against a giant centaur. As great as the blasted, windblown hellscape of the previous scene was, it felt like it could have been in any show where such things take place.

A lot of this is down to preference, I'm not huge on the Lord of the Rings movies (the books are cool) or Star Wars or anything else like that, so when the epic fantasy gets too epic I get a little less involved. And man I cannot take it seriously when huge demon creatures are yelling GIVE ME YOUR ALICORN MAGIC.


I certainly don't hope every season finale is along these lines. In fact I think it really can't be. Each big baddie so far has been dealt with in a way appropriate to their presentation:

Sombra (ethereal Sauron stand-in): defeated by a magic Ring-like talisman being kept from his grasp just long enough
Discord (goofball prankster): blasted with rainbows in the midst of checkerboard hills and ballet-dancing buffalo
Nightmare Moon (personal grudge inflated into spiteful megalomania): attacked one-on-one by a new Chosen One with newly invented magic
Tirek (ancient evil grown to the size of mountains and encompassing the sum total of all the powers of agency shown by all characters in the entire show to date): global thermonuclear friendship war

You're not getting bigger than Tirek, show. To do so would become grotesque. And honestly I don't think it's possible anyway. This episode cemented a lot about the world and timeline of Equestria, almost inadvertently: it confirmed quite explicitly that FOUR is the number of the counting of alicorn princesses, and the number of alicorn princesses is FOUR. (Five is right out.) And Tirek coming out of the depths of history the way he did, such that the princesses knowing that it was Him simply through a shared vision and an instant understanding that this was the great big dread that they all knew could return one day, means that there aren't going to be any bigger Big Bads appearing unheralded in the same way. Not if the writers have one ounce of self-respect and pride (and I know they have lots of ounces). Part of the writers' big gamble I talked about earlier is the degree to which they've solidified the universe around themselves with the presentation of this episode. They've cashed in an awful lot of chips on the Biggest Baddie Ever, and while it paid off handsomely, in so doing they've made it impossible to do anything quite like it again.

:twonk: Any other ancient horrors that were banished to Tartarus thousands of years ago but might randomly escape and threaten Equestria at any time you'd like to tell me about? You know, princess to princess?

S5 and beyond, they'll have to invent a whole new angle. I imagine the two-parters from here on out will be more intense personal affairs along the lines of Princess Twilight Sparkle. (The likeliest avenue for storytelling, if I had to guess, would involve Celestia/Luna and where their destinies lie. They're really kind of due for some serious face-time, and a real honest-to-goodness followup to MMC that plays along the same themes of mentorship/apprenticeship/mother/daughter/passing-of-the-torch has got to be in the offing sooner or later.)

But no, no more pew pews in the immediate future. If nothing else the show has to catch its breath for a good long while after this.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 1:55 am

Angel Beat wrote:You know, hearing all the Princesses sing made me squee so hard. :allears:



I know right! :allears:

Personally I squeed so hard throughout the whole thing, I'm pretty sure I broke my Squeeer :-P

I can't wait to download it off of iTunes tommorow!! :awesomedash:
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Postby Dal (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:01 am

Wayoshi wrote:Step back and ask why the hell Twi would go away from her adorkableness.


Don't you get it?!?! Larson killed Twilight last season! All that's left is a hollow shell used to hock cheaply made toys! Golden Oaks was the last vestiges of real Twilight, and Hasbro had Meghan brutally cut it down!!!!!!!!!


These are things people really believe. :allears:

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Postby Kronos (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:07 am

Wayoshi wrote:Step back and ask why the hell Twi would go away from her adorkableness.


Hasbro mandate.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:08 am

Okay! Now that I am back home, I can sit and digest a bit. People at Chicago will have already heard something of this, but watching the episode, I am struck by one thing, namely :

How Twilight's Kingdom was Celestia demonstrating she is the best Chess Player in all of Equestria
From the very beginning of the show, Celestia has shown herself as a character who sees a major problem, and then rather than taking the obvious solution, chooses a winding path because it produces a better end result.

In FiM Part 1/2, she has spent years training & preparing Twilight to save Luna. Not just direct training, but indirect movements as well - setting the Summer Sun Celebration in Ponyville which was conveniently close to the ancient Castle. Giving the land that would become Ponyville to the Apples much earlier so a town would be there; Sunset Shimmer as a former student who was obviously being trained for the same task, but failed. Why? Because if she had gone up against Nightmare straight up, she doesn't regain her sister. This way, all the pieces are in place to assure Luna is redeemed.

In the Gala, we find out Celestia pretty much invited the Mane 6 so they would liven it up. Season long plot arc is done so Celestia doesn't have to be bored.

In Return of Harmony, whose the one to send Twilight every Friendship Report she's ever written at the crucial moment?

Now, the wedding - she gets blindsided in the wedding. That's the one time her planning is totally upended, which is why she ends up on the ceiling.

But come Crystal Empire, she's right back in the saddle. Luna is chomping at the bit for the pair of them to go blow up Sombra a second time, but Celestia keeps Luna back, instead sending Twilight, enabling Twilight to learn an important lesson about sacrifice, while also setting up Cadance to take her role as protector of the Crystal Empire.

Magical Mystery Cure? Journal's sent by Celestia, setting off that entire episode, because she's judged Twilight ready.

Princess Twilight Sparkle? This one's more of a stretch; it's entirely plausible the vines blindsided her here, although when she's rescued, there's 0 disorientation, just immediate 'Knew you could do it, Twilight'. My pet theory is she set the whole thing up with Discord, but frankly there's utterly nothing to support that.

Anyhow, we now come to Twilight's Kingdom, where we have the following :

First, Celestia isn't stupid; she can be taken by surprise, but when she executes an action herself, it's planned out. Next, we know that Tirek starts out very weak; there is no reason Celestia and/or Luna cannot go take him out by themselves, and Cadance is all set to send Twilight & co to handle it, but like with the Empire, Celestia steps in and vetoes it and sends Discord instead - by himself.

The last bit is interesting. He's spent the season being a 'friend' - but one whose always been somewhat sketchy. Either she has missed this, rendering her stupid, or she's aware of it, meaning that she has a reason for seemingly failing to take it into account; her given reason for using Discord is he can track Tirek. Why not use Discord to track him, then go with him? Given how potent a threat he is, it would be prudent to send Discord with a companion - unless this is in fact a test for Discord.

Celestia sends him alone not because she trusts him, but because she wants to give him the opportunity to choose for himself; if he chooses Friendship, then that means he is truly on the right path, and if he chooses to betray Ponykind - as he did - then that shows he still needs another push, while leaving him in a prime position to receive it, as we later see when Tirek betrays him.

Discord, meanwhile, has already figured out how to open the box, because he's given Twilight the diary with the first 5 keys outlined for her. If he's figured that out, she almost certainly has as well. She could tell Twilight how to open the box, but neglects to do so. Discord, meanwhile, is being 'helpful' but in his old way, aka being a jerk about it.

So : why is she fine with Discord betraying them? Because it's not really the dire threat it seems to be.

If Tirek were truly so formidable that the only hope was to contain all alicorn magic in one Princess - why would she not choose herself or Luna? Concealing the magic isn't a solution, it is a delaying action. That doesn't stop the villain, it only means that he fails to achieve ultimate victory, but Equestria is still under his thrall and every pony save one is drained of magic. Twilight demonstrates the Four-in-One is enough to go head to head with Tirek, and either Celestia or Luna with their vast experience would be even more capable of wielding it to take him out in direct combat.

That she does not choose one of them means that she doesn't feel it necessary; she passes it to Twilight because that's the secondary plan; either Twilight defeats Tirek straight up, or Twilight makes the sacrifice necessary to attain the final key, unlock the box, and make Tirek taste the Rainbow.

There's supporting pieces for this as well; the whole 'Tirek doesn't know about you' is bollocks. First, Discord knows about Twilight, and Discord has betrayed them. If Tirek doesn't know now, his new accomplice is poised to tell him, as we promptly see happen. Second, she leaves the stained glass window with Twilight in it completely intact; if she's truly trying to hide Twilight's existence, then those two bits mean she's made a colossal oversight of blinding stupidity.

Or, the 'Fourth Princess' bit is just a red herring to get Twilight to go along with the true plan without clueing her into it, since the Key Epiphany isn't something that can be staged, but has to be genuine. Like with Nightmare Moon all the way back in season one, she's rigged the game in her favor before letting it play out.

In short : Tirek wasn't the threat he was made out to be, Celestia used him as a way to both fully redeem Discord, and bring Twilight to the final part of her journey to becoming Princess of Friendship.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:10 am

SoundMonkey44 wrote:

I know right! :allears:

Personally I squeed so hard throughout the whole thing, I'm pretty sure I broke my Squeeer :-P

I can't wait to download it off of iTunes tommorow!! :awesomedash:

True enough and same here. :yay:

I just pre-ordered the Squeeinator 6000. It should arrive before Season 5. :-I
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:12 am

Kronos wrote:
Hasbro mandate.


I'm curious now, how much control do the writers have in the story, compared to Hasbro Mandate. Like, I wish I could find a list of what was Hasbro Mandate really tells them, and what the writers do on their own.

:aghast: What if it was the writers all along who wanted to make Twilight a princess?
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:15 am

Dexanth wrote:...


Excellent analysis. Princess Celestia plays a long game.
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Postby Kronos (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:17 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
I'm curious now, how much control do the writers have in the story, compared to Hasbro Mandate. Like, I wish I could find a list of what was Hasbro Mandate really tells them, and what the writers do on their own.

:aghast: What if it was the writers all along who wanted to make Twilight a princess?



I said that was a reason for why Twilight would stop being adorkable, not that it had happened. Though it does feel like this princess crap is rapidly reducing it all the same.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:17 am

Kronos wrote:
Hasbro mandate.


Man I'm legit tired of that being the go to 'I don't like thing'.

Like, what does that MEAN in this context? They want to sell toys based on her...not being a dork? Will they release the Princess Twilight No Eggheads Playset?
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:21 am

shotgunbadger wrote:
Man I'm legit tired of that being the go to 'I don't like thing'.

Like, what does that MEAN in this context? They want to sell toys based on her...not being a dork? Will they release the Princess Twilight No Eggheads Playset?



I second this. Twy will always be adorkable. But she will also continue to mature as she grows & the show advances. If character growth is a Hasbro mandate, then I say good for Hasbro. :gotcha:

But seriously Twy is never gonna stop being a nerd, just like Dash will never stop being a jock. Just cause chsracters mature doesn't mean they aren't still themselves.
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Postby Kronos (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:21 am

shotgunbadger wrote:
Man I'm legit tired of that being the go to 'I don't like thing'.

Like, what does that MEAN in this context? They want to sell toys based on her...not being a dork? Will they release the Princess Twilight No Eggheads Playset?


They did sell toys based on her not being a dork. That's why Twilicorn happened.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:22 am

Kronos wrote:

I said that was a reason for why Twilight would stop being adorkable, not that it had happened. Though it does feel like this princess crap is rapidly reducing it all the same.


Oh. But you're right, it kind of is. Considering Twilight has nothing left to learn really, going back to how I feel detracting from what the show was about. We had her learning what to do, and what not to do. We had Twilight freaking out over things, which gave some great moments. But now, it looks like adorkable is being traded for being able to do mature Princess stuff.

And you know, maybe that'd be nice for the end of the show, wrapping up a character's arc. But this isn't the end. With a full season ahead, I feel Twilight is just becoming bland because of this.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:25 am

:twonk: THE SUN'S SUPPOSED TO BE UP

Twi's still got some adorkableness in her. That's a good thing.

:whatsup: How do you like the new castle library, Spike?

:yikes: It's nice, but we have made some changes. Do you have the identicard we sent you?

:ponder: Yes. *hoofs it over*

*bzzt* :dearcelestia: Checked and confirmed!
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:26 am

Princess or not, Twilight will always be adorkable. :wingsright:
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:26 am

Kronos wrote:
They did sell toys based on her not being a dork. That's why Twilicorn happened.


They never marketed her as a dork, 'she's a dork' never failed or anything because it was never a marketing style. What would possibly give anyone reason to think 'that's why Twilicorn happened'?

edit: Yea what was said above, did you miss when she forgot her job was to raise the sun and she spun it all around like a spaz? Princesses can be adorkable.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:27 am

Twilight may have grown up, but she will always be a dork no matter how much she matured :wingsright:
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:28 am

The way people complain about Twilight not being "adorkable" anymore you would think that every other sentence she ever spoke was her freaking out or gushing about books.

Again, I'm convinced none these people remember a thing about the writing in season one.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:30 am

On another note. I wonder how long before the comics Incoperate Rainbow Power/ Twilights Kingdom. They waited what, 8 months after MMC to put princess Twy in the comics... So wonder if the wait for these elements will be longer/shorter!?
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:33 am

Oh, well by "adorkable", I mean her overall ability to freak-out over something, and really she had moments every other episode, not every one even. Like in Crystal Empire, or Lesson Zero, It's About Time, Swarm of the Century, etc, where are those kinds of moments when something doesn't go as she intends? I'm personally not just talking about season one, or even her love of books.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:33 am

Pretty sure if Alicorn Twilight failed to ruin the show forever, just like Cadance and Shining Armor failed before her, then a glorified treehouse won't fare much better.

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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:34 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:Oh, well by "adorkable", I mean her overall ability to freak-out over something, and really she had moments every other episode, not every one even. Like in Crystal Empire, or Lesson Zero, It's About Time, Swarm of the Century, etc, where are those kinds of moments when something doesn't go as she intends? I'm personally not just talking about season one, or even her love of books.


She freaked out about the sun not being up, realizing that was now her job, and then flying with her suped up magic was classic Twilight, and that's just off the top of my head from the finale.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:39 am

There's also the :spoiler: emote which just screams adorkable to me. :-I
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Postby Dal (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:39 am

Castle Maneia has some weapons grade adorkable Twilight in it.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:43 am

I think this episode filled in a huge chunk of Twilight's character that MMC failed to do. Like, MMC took a house and constructed the frame of an extension onto it, but nothing more. A few bits and pieces got added in Three's a Crowd and Twilight's handful of other moments in S4, but it wasn't until Twilight's Kingdom that it all got filled in and finished. As Twilight herself said, she felt like she had no purpose as a "princess," but now she's found it. She feels whole again, now. :flutterunsmith:
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:44 am

DerFurShur wrote:
She freaked out about the sun not being up, realizing that was now her job, and then flying with her suped up magic was classic Twilight, and that's just off the top of my head from the finale.


I apologize then, I still haven't seen the finale. But I'm still referring to the season overall, I don't think a handful of things in the finale will cover up what already was missed in the season.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:44 am

Bravinim wrote:Does anyone really think Twilight isn't going to fill up her new place with with mountains and mountains of books?

:sheepish: Dear Princess Celestia, would you mind if I built a new castle next door to the old one? Mine's full.

Niels Olof wrote:And let me just add for the record that I get a kick out of every time Princess Celestia says "Princess Twilight". Good times.

I can never hear that and not mentally add a ™ at the end.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:49 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
I apologize then, I still haven't seen the finale. But I'm still referring to the season overall, I don't think a handful of things in the finale will cover up what already was missed in the season.

You really should watch it, if only to form your own opinion on it. If you're just reading about what happened then I think it's easier to focus on the parts you dislike far more than the actual episode did.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:51 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
I apologize then, I still haven't seen the finale. But I'm still referring to the season overall, I don't think a handful of things in the finale will cover up what already was missed in the season.


Well she did go to a history nerd convention with her sister-in-law (in cosplay no less), she tried to give away the joys of learning by trading her books and then preceded to reminisce about said books, and when all of the foals of Ponyville just randomly show up on her doorstep wanting her to teach them, she sets up an impromptu learn-a-torium

EDIT: Holy crap I almost forgot Twilight eating a hamburger......one of the cutest (and arguably secondary embarrassing) things in the entire show
Last edited by DerFurShur on Mon May 12, 2014 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:54 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:You really should watch it, if only to form your own opinion on it. If you're just reading about what happened then I think it's easier to focus on the parts you dislike far more than the actual episode did.


I know that's true. Unfortunately, it's just that as I said earlier, since the S3 premier I would always put off watching MLP premiers/finales regardless of liking the premise or not, and I really don't know why.
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Postby londonarbuckle (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 2:59 am

Yeah, this season's use of Twilight has been pretty weak overall but I agree with fizzbuzz, this episode satisfyingly filled in the gaps that I felt have been missing ever since she was first princessified.

(I refuse to say "adorkable," it reminds me of Zooey Deschanel or something. :vomitpony: )
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 3:03 am

On a Random note... Cadence hair looks way too big for her head here IMO.
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:gotcha: oh my Cadence it seems your hair's power is growing faster then the rest of you.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 3:11 am

That's just the other side of her head -> :vogue: :ohrarity:

Angel Beat wrote:There's also the :spoiler: emote which just screams adorkable to me. :-I


Take away the wings, horn, and crown and you're left with a girl who knows entirely too much about astronomy and she won't stop until you share her level of enthusiasm. :excite:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 3:13 am

And StarSwirl the Bearded, don't forget her obsession with StarSwirl The Bearded!! :spoiler:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 3:17 am

I was amused that after two seasons of Star Swirl the Bearded being mentioned off-screen but never seen, now in the tail end of S4 we've gone through visual confirmation (in Three's a Crowd) to Star Swirl being seen in the Scorpan flashback but only described as "a young unicorn wizard". :-I
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon May 12, 2014 3:22 am

Headless Horse wrote:I was amused that after two seasons of Star Swirl the Bearded being mentioned off-screen but never seen, now in the tail end of S4 we've gone through visual confirmation (in Three's a Crowd) to Star Swirl being seen in the Scorpan flashback but only described as "a young unicorn wizard". :-I

We finally did see Star Swirl in his true form, though...

...in the comic books :v:
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