S05E08: The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone

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Re: S05E08: The Lost Treasure of Griffonstone

Postby Bremen (?) » Sun May 24, 2015 11:45 pm

Bakertoons wrote:Just wondering. Anyone feel that, after seeing this episode, the ending of "Griffon the Brush Off" feels depressing in hindsight?


Not really, no. It's been awhile since I last watched it, but it wasn't like the ponies chased her off with pitchforks; she stormed off because she was too proud or angry to back down. At any time in the last four seasons she probably could have come back with a few apologies and fixed things, but didn't until Pinkie was around to help her.

So of the early antagonists, I actually felt more sympathy for Trixie, even though they were both jerks; Gilda had a chance to make up for her mistakes and refused it, Trixie never got that chance (well, at least until Magic Duel).
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:00 am

Bremen wrote:So of the early antagonists, I actually felt more sympathy for Trixie, even though they were both jerks; Gilda had a chance to make up for her mistakes and refused it, Trixie never got that chance (well, at least until Magic Duel).

Honestly, I think Trixie did have all the time in the world to make up for what she did. She chose to do this by getting revenge, as seen in the entire events of Magic Duel. Considering that she came back and caused some seriously bad shit (remember, she took over all of Ponyville), it's harder for me to feel sympathetic for her, to say the least.

Meanwhile, even though Gilda never came back to Ponyville, I don't see any malice in that. As I saw her here, it felt to me like she was actually somewhat ashamed of what she did way back then, that she lost a friend who was so dear to her when she was young. Thinking of it from her perspective, Gilda's story feels outright tragic to me, that she couldn't take the necessary hit to her pride in order to start making things right.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:12 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Meanwhile, even though Gilda never came back to Ponyville, I don't see any malice in that. As I saw her here, it felt to me like she was actually somewhat ashamed of what she did way back then, that she lost a friend who was so dear to her when she was young. Thinking of it from her perspective, Gilda's story feels outright tragic to me, that she couldn't take the necessary hit to her pride in order to start making things right.


...which seems like a running theme in Griffon culture, based on what we've seen in this episode.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:12 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Honestly, I think Trixie did have all the time in the world to make up for what she did. She chose to do this by getting revenge, as seen in the entire events of Magic Duel. Considering that she came back and caused some seriously bad shit (remember, she took over all of Ponyville), it's harder for me to feel sympathetic for her, to say the least.

Meanwhile, even though Gilda never came back to Ponyville, I don't see any malice in that. As I saw her here, it felt to me like she was actually somewhat ashamed of what she did way back then, that she lost a friend who was so dear to her when she was young. Thinking of it from her perspective, Gilda's story feels outright tragic to me, that she couldn't take the necessary hit to her pride in order to start making things right.


Well, this was all pre-Magic Duel. And I don't feel like Trixie really could make up for what she did; she could have apologized until she was blue in the face (well, more blue) but it wouldn't make the town like her or forgive her, whereas a heartfelt apology would have done wonders for Gilda. Don't forget, Twilight had to convince Rainbow not to chase after Trixie. And no, I'm not saying Gilda never coming back means she was malicious, just that all that stood between her and repairing her friendship with Rainbow Dash was her stubbornness and pride, so I don't feel a lot of sympathy for her.

Magic Duel does complicate the situation, admittedly, but that's a whole different discussion.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:21 am

Keep in mind that "all" Trixie herself did back in Boast Busters was to hugely lie about her own accomplishments and insult anyone who stepped up to her. Snips and Snails were the ones who woke the Ursa Minor and lured it back to Ponyville, after all.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:24 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Keep in mind that "all" Trixie herself did back in Boast Busters was to hugely lie about her own accomplishments and insult anyone who stepped up to her. Snips and Snails were the ones who woke the Ursa Minor and lured it back to Ponyville, after all.


Yep. I more or less see Gilda and Trixie as equitable; both were jerks and bullies; Trixie was also a fraud, and Gilda was also a thief. Of the two, I figure Trixie got off much worse though, so I had more sympathy for her after their respective first episodes.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:30 am

On one hand, Trixie was able to come back as a legit supervillain and still be forgiven, even though she barely changed after her apology.

On the other hand, she was then shipped off to Dougworld to be a villain all over again, so I guess it evens out.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:43 am

This redemption made sense, where Trixie was just "I think I'll be nice now", with no real reason for her change being given.
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 1:09 am

The Doctor wrote:This redemption made sense, where Trixie was just "I think I'll be nice now", with no real reason for her change being given.

Still a better redemption than Discords. :v:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 1:22 am

Strangest Letter wrote:Still a better redemption than Discords. :v:


Discord's is still kind of "in progress"
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Postby InsertAuthorHere (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 1:42 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:On one hand, Trixie was able to come back as a legit supervillain and still be forgiven, even though she barely changed after her apology.

On the other hand, she was then shipped off to Dougworld to be a villain all over again, so I guess it evens out.


The only time EqG!Trixie ever did anything straight-up evil was during a time when the entire school had been brainwashed into being evil jerks. Everything outside of that still has her being a jerk, but on a much smaller scale.

I generally felt for Trixie more than Gilda, especially now that we know what happened to each of them afterwards. Trixie was a braggart and lied about her accomplishments to make herself look and feel better than everyone else, but she was also putting on a show, the Mane 6 were heckling her (including Dash, who is just as egotistical as Trixie is), and the episode ends with Trixie's wagon destroyed and her running off. Gilda was initially just visiting an old friend, but she then proceeded to steal, frighten the elderly, and essentially assault ponies that got in her way. We knew less about Trixie as a character, but there was enough ground to judge Gilda, and she just was not a good person.

Fast forward to their return episodes. Gilda apparently went back to Griffonstone and began selling griffon scones in order to get enough bits to move away. Trixie got to watch as her career was ruined because of her Ursa Major lie, to the point where she was forced to eke out an existence on a rock farm. She eventually gave in to revenge, and apologized afterwards. Both Magic Duel and Lost Treasure of Griffonstone had rushed endings and redemptions, but Trixie at least took the initiative and said she was sorry; Gilda had to be guilt-tripped into it by Pinkie and had to wait until Dash's life was in mortal peril before she changed her ways.

What I'm more interested in is how they'll handle Gilda now. The episode ends with her behaving quite differently from the grouchy, confrontational griffon we know and, for lack of a better term, love. One of the most important things about redeeming a villain character is that you don't make them unrecognizable once they change alignments. Trixie is no longer bragging to elevate herself, but she's still egotistical and hammy to the extreme. Discord is no longer attempting to take over Equestria, but he's still a jerk and willing to throw a pony into another dimension if he thinks they're jeopardizing his only friendship. Sunset Shimmer did a personality change, but Rainbow Rocks sidestepped this by focusing on how everybody else wasn't willing to forgive her. Hopefully they'll find something they can fit Gilda into, even if it's only in expanded universe content, without drastically rewriting her.
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Postby Illuminations (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 2:10 am

Sorry for being late to the party but I loved seeing the little slide-show styled images of Griffonstone's history. Their visual/art styles resemble medieval manuscripts with pictures in them.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 2:10 am

:rage: The perfect gift for me...is a smile as wide as a mile!

Image Nailed it!
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby Thaddeus (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 2:33 am

I'm hearing some sort of weird Screamo version of Smile in that conversation.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 2:43 am

Illuminations wrote:Sorry for being late to the party but I loved seeing the little slide-show styled images of Griffonstone's history. Their visual/art styles resemble medieval manuscripts with pictures in them.


I love the storybook sequences when they do them. Not only is the artwork always great, but it gives them a chance to hint at big events that they probably wouldn't have the time or budget to execute effectively in full animation.
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 5:33 am

Luckily I didn't miss the episode while attending Midwest Brony Fest. A few people were streaming Bronystate on their laptops in the prefunction area and I got in on one (tried it on my laptop, but it isn't strong enough for streaming).

Awesome episode. I think I could hear Gilda fans around the world yelling over the noise of the con. :-P The backstory flashback was :allears:
The Pinkie and Gummy moment was hilarious. And then Pinkie messing up with the rope twice.... :facehoof:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 6:13 am

Mic Roe Pony wrote:I'm hearing some sort of weird Screamo version of Smile in that conversation.


Now I'd like to hear a cover like that. It'd probably be the first screamo song I like. :-P
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 6:19 am

Huh, somebody pointed out that Gilda does appear in the book Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell, where she teams up with Trixie to give bad advice to Twilight. Also, Gilda is a citizen of Ponyville in the book.

It's safe to say that this episode made the book non-canon :v:
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Postby NoponyImportant (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 6:35 am

Is it bad that the 'no singing' made perfect sense to me, since the gryphons would probably try to sing everything in G major? :wat:
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 8:25 am

Bakertoons wrote:Huh, somebody pointed out that Gilda does appear in the book Twilight Sparkle and the Crystal Heart Spell, where she teams up with Trixie to give bad advice to Twilight. Also, Gilda is a citizen of Ponyville in the book.

It's safe to say that this episode made the book non-canon :v:


Not sure the book said she was a citizen of Ponyville, actually. She just showed up (I think), but then so did Trixie.

...Or my memory might be wrong.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 10:40 am

Illuminations wrote:Sorry for being late to the party but I loved seeing the little slide-show styled images of Griffonstone's history. Their visual/art styles resemble medieval manuscripts with pictures in them.

Me too, I thought they were really pretty. Their look was pretty damn unlike FiM's (especially the story of Griffonstone's downfall), but I thought that contrast was used to great effect.
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Not sure the book said she was a citizen of Ponyville, actually. She just showed up (I think), but then so did Trixie.

...Or my memory might be wrong.

That's how I remember it going. Trixie and Gilda were just kind of... there. Their totally evil scheme was to pour out barrels of cider and refill them with pond water.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 10:46 am

It reminds me a little bit of the storybook opening in the pilot. I love it when the show does that and hope it happens more often. :allears:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 12:36 pm

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 1:52 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Considering Rainbow Dash's level of artistic ability (see TT123), maybe she scribbled that on the cover.

Well, whoever did it, they were copying Twilight's book:
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Also, dice from the iTunes copy:
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The green one does look like a d10.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 1:59 pm

:shock: Pinkie Pie, your cutie mark was summoning you to the Hall of Friendship! Why didn't you answer?

:-P I was busy baking something, so I let it go to voice mail.
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 2:11 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:
Also, dice from the iTunes copy:
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The green one does look like a d10.


Griffon society is best society sorry pones there's a new cool ass society in town.
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Postby LardLad3545 (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 3:38 pm

So, something I noticed. We didn't get an establishing shot of the map room, which I thought was kind of odd. I'm pretty sure it's the first time we've seen it since Castle, Sweet Castle. Basically what I'm getting at is I thought it would've been a nice reference to naturally show the Golden Oaks roots hanging from the ceiling. I dunno... I'm just musing. :ponder:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 3:42 pm

Could be that they're saving that particular moment for the next map episode.
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 4:10 pm

Or that they weren't 100% sure that Castle Sweet Castle was going to air before Griffonstone, so just in case, they cut that shot out of the storyboard.
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Postby Thaddeus (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 4:23 pm

Considering there was already allegedly some higgeldy-piggeldy over who wrote this episode, that wouldn't be too surprising.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 7:27 pm

It may just have been a coincidence, too. After all, the opening shot of that scene had Twilight staring at the tiny image of Griffonstone on the map, so there really wasn't any need to make an establishing shot that would include the chandelier in the picture.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 8:27 pm

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I found it interesting/notable that they "went there" with Pinkie and King Grover. Of course it's all a gag, but those flirty "You old charmer" lines take us into new territory for Pinkie at least.
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 8:33 pm

Headless Horse wrote:I'm gonna go ahead and say that I found it interesting/notable that they "went there" with Pinkie and King Grover. Of course it's all a gag, but those flirty "You old charmer" lines take us into new territory for Pinkie at least.


They had Pinkie dress up in a burlesque outfit way back in season one.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 8:37 pm

Do you think it's interesting just because it's a side of Pinkie Pie that we've not really seen before, or also because it's a kind of joke which the show does not normally make? It did feel unusual to me for that second reason, but I suppose we've seen enough of that kind of behavior from Rarity that it really is not especially new territory for FiM.
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Postby Illuminations (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 10:59 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Do you think it's interesting just because it's a side of Pinkie Pie that we've not really seen before, or also because it's a kind of joke which the show does not normally make? It did feel unusual to me for that second reason, but I suppose we've seen enough of that kind of behavior from Rarity that it really is not especially new territory for FiM.


If the fandom has taught me anything, its that I shouldn't expect or perceive Pinkie Pie to not display such subtle expressions of flirting and/or teasing. Considering that she is one of most open-minded, cheerful and approachable mares in Equestria, I wouldn't put it past her to show those sorts of behavioral acts and feelings on occasion.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 11:04 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Do you think it's interesting just because it's a side of Pinkie Pie that we've not really seen before, or also because it's a kind of joke which the show does not normally make? It did feel unusual to me for that second reason, but I suppose we've seen enough of that kind of behavior from Rarity that it really is not especially new territory for FiM.


It's the second one, yeah. Thing is, Rarity was designed to sort of be the only one of the main cast who had any indication of romantic inclinations, as though she'd sort of be the heat-sink for the whole group—letting that be just one aspect of one character's personality, and in the process emphasizing that it's by no means universal to all their definitions the way it would be in a less Bechdel-test-defying show. But having Twilight entertain notions of romantic relationships (even if "out-of-band"), and now Pinkie acting coquettish, maybe feels to me like the show thinks it's made its point and is now going to just do what's funny regardless of what message it sends.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 11:13 pm

Headless Horse wrote:
It's the second one, yeah. Thing is, Rarity was designed to sort of be the only one of the main cast who had any indication of romantic inclinations, as though she'd sort of be the heat-sink for the whole group—letting that be just one aspect of one character's personality, and in the process emphasizing that it's by no means universal to all their definitions the way it would be in a less Bechdel-test-defying show. But having Twilight entertain notions of romantic relationships (even if "out-of-band"), and now Pinkie acting coquettish, maybe feels to me like the show thinks it's made its point and is now going to just do what's funny regardless of what message it sends.


Personally, I never really felt that Rarity was supposed to be the only one with romantic inclinations, just that the show didn't focus on romance for it's own sake (I've actually heard that romance is a big turnoff to many kids in the show's target age range). But seeing Twilight or Pinkie occasionally show romantic interest doesn't really feel odd to me.

Of course, your experience may vary.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 25, 2015 11:26 pm

That could well be the case; maybe at the heart of a lot of the problematic feminine characterizations in past shows is a vicious circle in which the adult writers put in romance as a source of drama or humor, because let's face it, romance is funny—but they fail to realize that the kids in the audience don't inherently have an affinity for that sort of thing unless they're conditioned for it. So then they watch the shows, and in the absence of the kind of drama or humor that they would like, they glom on to the romance stuff just because that's what the writers found easiest to work with, and the kids grow up thinking romance is all there is to the world, if TV is to be believed.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Tue May 26, 2015 12:09 am

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:
They had Pinkie dress up in a burlesque outfit way back in season one.


I guess the point with that was that only adults would recognise it as a burlesque outfit (or even have any concept of what burlesque was). For kids, she was just wearing a funny dress.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue May 26, 2015 12:47 am

Headless Horse wrote:
It's the second one, yeah. Thing is, Rarity was designed to sort of be the only one of the main cast who had any indication of romantic inclinations, as though she'd sort of be the heat-sink for the whole group—letting that be just one aspect of one character's personality, and in the process emphasizing that it's by no means universal to all their definitions the way it would be in a less Bechdel-test-defying show. But having Twilight entertain notions of romantic relationships (even if "out-of-band"), and now Pinkie acting coquettish, maybe feels to me like the show thinks it's made its point and is now going to just do what's funny regardless of what message it sends.

At the same time, by doing this it makes Rarity's usual behavior feel more natural by comparison. Had she continued to be the only one of them to show any romantic behavior, eventually she'd just get pigeonholed. However, by letting some of the others occasionally show those sorts of inclinations, those sorts of feelings come off more as the sort of thing that most people tend to experience to one degree or another, with Rarity just being someone who experiences them very strongly (as opposed to being strictly the romantic of the Mane Six). I'd be worried if all of them started acting like Rarity did (or even worse, if all of them started acting in FiM like Twilight did in EqG :vomitpony:), but from what we've seen here I think it's been done just enough to where it makes the cast feel more rounded overall.


It could also be that the show is growing up some more. Like, the "naked" Rarity joke from the last episode is something that I don't think would've been very funny or would've even made it into the script back in S1, but with the decreasing horsiness of the show's characters over time, the idea of ponies wearing clothes has become normal enough to where that joke actually has some impact now. In that same vein, Pinkie Pie dropping a line that sounds the least bit flirty would've likely felt wildly out of place way back in 2010, but she and the others have matured and been fleshed out enough now to where it's more acceptable for her to do something like that.
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