S04E17: Somepony to Watch Over Me

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Re: S04E17: Somepony to Watch Over Me

Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:27 pm

ZamuelNow wrote:
Eh, Garble and the rest of the teen dragons were chatty but fully willing to be violent.

And the two dragons from Dragonshy and Owl's Well that Ends Well. And the Diamond Dogs. I think the real difference here is that this episode was far more threatening than any of those felt.
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Postby londonarbuckle (?) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:32 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:And the two dragons from Dragonshy and Owl's Well that Ends Well. And the Diamond Dogs. I think the real difference here is that this episode was far more threatening than any of those felt.


Yeah, none of those other examples threatened to straight-up KILL and eat a main character.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:35 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I think the real difference here is that this episode was far more threatening than any of those felt.
Except the whole lion tamer's gag and the ricotta cut into it.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:35 pm

"What are you doing in my cave, and why are you eating my gems?" made the green dragon sound like he simply wanted to discuss the matter with Spike. :spike101:
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Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:51 pm

londonarbuckle wrote:
Yeah, none of those other examples threatened to straight-up KILL and eat a main character.


I think you capitalized the wrong word. I feel all the dragons were potentially lethal threats but none of them vocalized the ponies (and Spike) as food to the pony's face.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:25 am

Garble & Co. were just being teenagers.

The most lethal force on the planet. :eep:
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Postby Gravenstein (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:07 am

The gags in this were great, but yeah the actual plot was pretty bad. :nnngh: Maybe they should've done something along the lines of "Applejack doesn't actually want to do the pie delivery because it's so dangerous, and is using taking care of Apple Bloom as an excuse not to go" or something?
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:21 am

Gravenstein wrote:The gags in this were great, but yeah the actual plot was pretty bad. :nnngh: Maybe they should've done something along the lines of "Applejack doesn't actually want to do the pie delivery because it's so dangerous, and is using taking care of Apple Bloom as an excuse not to go" or something?

That still would've been pretty bad for Applejack, though. She isn't normally shown to be one who backs down in the face of danger. Castle Mane-ia is about the most we've seen from her as far as cowardice goes, and that was with her facing an unseen foe and with Rainbow Dash unintentionally spooking her every step of the way.
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Postby Quanta (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:52 am

BackgroundPony wrote:AJ has gone around the bend at least once before, in the family reunion. That seemed more organic than this. Work pony trying to do all the work and getting overloaded.

I don't think it's completely ridiculous for AJ to go crazy trying to protect a family member, but the episode should have had something to trigger it. And not a completely contrived ridiculous scenario resulting in some broken dishes, either.

As I see it, the triggers were these:

- The discussion that she, Big Mac, and Granny had as the episode began as to whether they could leave AB alone for an afternoon.
- AJ's fretting as she's leaving to make her delivery. It becomes likely that she was probably vocal about AB not being able to care for herself during the previous discussion, but was ultimately overruled by Big Mac and Granny. Nonetheless, she heads back for a moment, just to be sure she's not being crazy.
- AJ's sudden arrival back at the farm causes AB to create a large mess, fueling AJ's concerns that AB needs supervision. Episode proceeds from there.

Maybe I'm the only one who sees things that way though? :pinkieshrug:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:56 am

Quanta wrote:As I see it, the triggers were these:

- The discussion that she, Big Mac, and Granny had as the episode began as to whether they could leave AB alone for an afternoon.
- AJ's fretting as she's leaving to make her delivery. It becomes likely that she was probably vocal about AB not being able to care for herself during the previous discussion, but was ultimately overruled by Big Mac and Granny. Nonetheless, she heads back for a moment, just to be sure she's not being crazy.
- AJ's sudden arrival back at the farm causes AB to create a large mess, fueling AJ's concerns that AB needs supervision. Episode proceeds from there.

Maybe I'm the only one who sees things that way though? :pinkieshrug:


Not at all I completly agree 110%!


Gravenstein wrote:The gags in this were great, but yeah the actual plot was pretty bad. :nnngh: Maybe they should've done something along the lines of "Applejack doesn't actually want to do the pie delivery because it's so dangerous, and is using taking care of Apple Bloom as an excuse not to go" or something?


Disagree, A plot like that would have been far too shallow & spongebobish, behavior like that would have made AJ look bad and that really would have been bad characterization &/or OOC writing.
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Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:14 am

There's something else to take in mind. While the CMC are already latchkey kids, this was explicitly a business trip where all of the adults were out of town. It shifts the dynamic and the reasoning behind the worry, especially in a world without cell phones. If something were to happen, Sweet Apple Acres is outside of town and it might be a day or so before anyone would find out. I think this episode has some unspoken things that are expected for people to pick up but won't resonate with all viewers.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:28 am

You know what I just realized? Back in JFS, we saw the CMC hanging around their clubhouse, even though Applejack and the other five were way up north. Presumably Applejack was okay with it since Big Mac and Granny Smith were still in Ponyville. But here's the thing: neither of them were actually at Sweet Apple Acres. Big Mac was going out with Cheerilee and Granny Smith was in town taking bribes from Spike. I guess those two have a far higher view of Apple Bloom's maturity than Applejack does. If Applejack had to realize that when she and them were having that discussion in the intro, of course she would've been even further on edge after losing such an argument.
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:49 am

We're slowly starting to get my daughter into naming all hte ponies properly...


:-P is Bubble pie
:v: is Raindass
:angry: is Applesss
:yay: is Flus-shy

And :gotcha: :speakest: :allright: :spoiler: are all PINCESSS
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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:15 am

BackgroundPony wrote:Chalk me up in the camp that thinks this was a weird out of character episode. I know it's never been explicitly stated, but I always got the feeling AJ would treat AB with care, but not smothering overprotectiveness. Looking at previous episodes where they've interacted, there hasn't been an inkling of this. Totally out of left field.

If something would have happened to trigger the behavior, that would be fine, but as is I have to say it just felt like bad writing.


Applejack frequently lays in bed at night and wonders why her mama didn't protect her well enough so that she'd still be there to kiss her forehead just before she drifted off into innocent slumberland, IMHO.

You tend to most fiercely protect what you feel was torn away from you in the harshest way- and I think we just saw that this episode. Only someone who'd lost their own bloom of youth to the harsh reality of running a farm far too young would be that irrational about shielding it in their siblings.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:23 am

All this parents died stuff is great and would have explained this all fine, but again, it's not canon. Sibsy inserting twinkly stars really can't fully count.
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Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:25 am

Wayoshi wrote:All this parents died stuff is great and would have explained this all fine, but again, it's not canon. Sibsy inserting twinkly stars really can't fully count.


:-/ Why not? Especially with Meghan confirming them afterwards.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:26 am

If it's a storyboard-only detail and not the writers' intent... :eenope:

Meghan rushing to confirm via tweet isn't enough for me.
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Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:30 am

Wasn't Philomena's demise mostly due to the storyboarders? The exact sequence with her turning to ash I mean, not that she died and was reborn.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:33 am

Wayoshi wrote:If it's a storyboard-only detail and not the writers' intent... :eenope:

Meghan rushing to confirm via tweet isn't enough for me.



So people that are still activly involved with the show confirming something they arent allowed to openly address isnt good enough for you!?

Damn u one stone cold cat wayoshi!

Also, we do still know that AJ, Big Mac & Granny Smith raised AB, and that the Apple parents are MIA, so, yeah...
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:38 am

Wayoshi wrote:All this parents died stuff is great and would have explained this all fine, but again, it's not canon. Sibsy inserting twinkly stars really can't fully count.

It's still the only rational explanation for why their parents have been gone forever. How else would you explain their complete absence from the entire series, even a family reunion which brought every other member of the. family together? Given how death-averse children's TV shows tend to be, even that sort of symbolism is a big sign.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:39 am

I mean, if the show can never really address it anyways, what good is it if it's confirmed or not? :pinkieshrug:

Fizzbuzz wrote:How else would you explain their complete absence from the entire series

Coldly: sensible apple-related pony names - Granny Smith, Big Macintosh - overtook how sensible the family unit was.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:43 am

Wayoshi wrote:I mean, if the show can never really address it anyways, what good is it if it's confirmed or not? :pinkieshrug:


It explains why AJ is the way she is, thats why. She had to grow up faster without a mom and dad and a baby sister to take care of. ( and to an extent she kinda takes care of Granny Smith & Big Mac too given Granny's age & mac 's occassional bad back). Hell in PAP they basically admitted AJ was the glue that keeps the apples together due to all her hard work.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:46 am

If it's never outright stated though, it's just a wink-nudge situation of "oh, here's why this characterization happened" ("...and hey we covered our asses!") while never playing out on-screen. No juicy fallout or emotional scenes really robs the whole point of having that detail be canon.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:51 am

Wayoshi wrote:If it's never outright stated though, it's just a wink-nudge situation of "oh, here's why this characterization happened" ("...and hey we covered our asses!") while never playing out on-screen. No juicy fallout or emotional scenes really robs the whole point of having that detail be canon.



Welp thats one way to look at it, or you could view it as a piece of character building that works because it isnt flat out thrown in your face. But hey, whatever floats your boat . :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:54 am

SoundMonkey44 wrote:you could view it as a piece of character building that works because it isnt flat out thrown in your face

I suppose that's true... and deepening analysis among the fandom is always great.

The combination of never going to happen on-screen and using such a fact to justify wonky characterization was just not a good one for me this week.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:58 am

Fair Enough. I can understand why that would bother some people more then others. But on A more light hearted note, I think we can all agree AJ is one heck of A Chimera Wrangler! :twasnothin:


Edit: All this AJ being like A surrogate mom to AB talk over the past 2 days made me think of these doodles, relivant because cute & :ponydrugs:

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Postby fenster (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:15 pm

SoundMonkey44 wrote:

Welp thats one way to look at it, or you could view it as a piece of character building that works because it isnt flat out thrown in your face.


Well first off, as nice as a character trait as it may be, it can't ever really be seriously used for reasoning since it isn't explicitly established. The Stars were cute in AFR, but most of the audience won't (and didn't) notice it and most people just casually watching the show are not going to come up with this notion. Until it is explicitly established, it should stay where it is: a cute little idea of no serious consequence to the larger show.


I'd like my character building to actually be things that we, you know, see. Justifying whatever unprompted-yet-important characterization with inconspicuous reasoning or events outside the audience purview isn't impossible to do and can make sense, but it's straight up lazy (or, in timed constrained shows like this, insufficient) writing. If this were some other cartoon, perhaps it'd be fine, but MLP has raised the bar on our expetations on consistency. FiM is a cartoon that mostly has kept it's characterizations relatively consistent, and is the kind of show where it's expected that these characters remain within these relative bounds because of what it itself has established and complaints about sudden shifts in characterization are very real critiques to watch out for in newer plots. If there is a sudden shift, then we expect to actually understand and see what happened because of how important the character consistency is.

For example, opening the gates on whatever flimsy excuse for the sudden change in this case would be the same as opening up to excuses for whichever Merriweather Williams episode that gets commonly criticized for "poor characterization" because in all these cases no reason is explicitly established for why everyone is acting different. I don't think Williams's episodes should get the hate that they do, but even I can agree that writers for the show need to keep certain things consistent, and thus I won't try to come up with hairbrained explanations for why everyone was weird in the HWE play or why Scootaloo decided to not care about her (assumed) long time hero in MDW.

I certainly like the idea that AJ overacted as a result of trauma over dead parents or w/e, and to be honest I even like the characterization of AJ in this episode that sort of harkens back to Season 1 Bridle Gossip worry over her sister, but this is a show that has raised the bar on characterization, and in turn that means that it's not satisfactory to have characters have offscreen sudden growth/change or hide important character details away when they are important for establishing the plot.

MLP is too good for it's own good. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:19 pm

Meh I think the show actually showing everyone everything would be silly, and would kind of be looking down on the audience, enough shows treat their audience like idiots, showing/explaining every little thing * or poorly trying to*. I'd rather there be character traits & reasonings left up to viewer interpretation.

But hey, to each their own. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Quanta (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:29 pm

AJ's parents don't even have to be "dead" dead; they just need to be missing for whatever reason (hot air balloon crash in the ShooBeeDoo Triangle? :ponder:). However, I suspect that even that would deviate too far from the tone of the show since, while bad stuff does happen occasionally, it's never "dead parents" bad. I'm sure that kids with guardians can relate to AB's situation of being raised by brothers/sisters/grandparents without having it explicitly spelled out that "HER PARENTS ARE DEAAAAAAAAAAAAAD"!
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:57 pm

Agreed, even with flat out stating it, it's plain to see there are no parents present in the mix. Thus the reason why AJ has to a degree had to take up the role of parental figure *along with Granny Smith most likely* on top of sister.
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Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 3:21 pm

fenster wrote:Well first off, as nice as a character trait as it may be, it can't ever really be seriously used for reasoning since it isn't explicitly established. The Stars were cute in AFR, but most of the audience won't (and didn't) notice it and most people just casually watching the show are not going to come up with this notion. Until it is explicitly established, it should stay where it is: a cute little idea of no serious consequence to the larger show.


I've always found some people's reaction to the stars a rather interesting example of cultural shift. The very first thing I thought even before it got confirmed was an unspoken reference about the parents passed away but watching over them. It used to be a very common visual shorthand but it's used far less nowadays. "Dead parents are taboo in kid's entertainment" is really a product of the past decade since Disney used to be built off of orphans and single parent homes. It also feels sorta rude to dismiss the animators' contributions. Filling in the gaps happens in a number animated shows and I know that with AFR I would have been taken out of the episode completely without the stars or some other sort of acknowledgement of the parents not being there. I mean, Meghan could have just as easily denied the stars' meaning or kept silent about it.
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Postby fenster (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:39 pm

ZamuelNow wrote: It also feels sorta rude to dismiss the animators' contributions.


It's a critique, not an insult. If the show tries to pass off a flimsy little detail as an excuse for a sudden character shift without executing it in a conspicuous or meaningful fashion, then I'm going to call it flimsy. As a premise, it's fine, but even the Star scene itself is weak in communicating any actual emotion from Applejack about how she feels about dead parents for a variety of reasons, making it not a legitimate or satisfactory as a substitute for actually exploring the character to the audience, essentially making the entire thing worthless except as a *wink wink nudge nudge* background detail that only the creators and some extensive fans will understand. This is what I'm getting at here: common viewers (and even a significant portion of the fans!) will not really get the implications of that scene as a use for AJ's shift in character because there is such a thing in writing as too subtle, so while it's existence is perfectly fine, it's use as an element to properly establish AJ's motivations and emotions is weak.


Filling in the gaps happens in a number animated shows


Filling in the gaps happens with everything. That doesn't make it good. Sometimes it's okay, sometimes it adds a lot, and sometimes it goes too far. It's all about the execution and how it all fits together, and like Wayoshi said these pieces are pretty weak when it came to putting it together for this week's episode.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:49 pm

Their hands are tied. If they could, they would say her parents are dead, but people above them say no, so you have to do it in whatever way possible. It's not rocket surgery.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:58 pm

I personally believe that the whole “two shooting stars” thing is a perfectly valid interpretation for people to roll with.

No, Applejack’s parents have never explicitly been mentioned as dead (or missing or whatever). But this show isn’t a novel. In a novel, the only medium for relating the story is the printed word. Dialogue and text carry all of the weight of characterization, development, and every other little nuance. So 100% of the responsibility for that is on the writer.

But My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is most certainly not a novel. While it's sometimes easy to think that the entire narrative of an episode is controlled solely by that week's writer, the truth is that this show is a collaborative effort among a bunch of extremely talented folks. The writers, animators, storyboard artists, voice actors, etc all contribute to the show in their own ways.

Now, I'm not going to get into authorial intent or the "death of the author." But I do think it's important to remember just how many people besides the writer influence these weekly stories. The two shooting stars were obviously put there for a reason. Take from that what you will. It's massively open to interpretation and opinion. But just because the writing aspect of the show has never brought it up, doesn't mean that it has any less significance coming from the storyboard/animation/artistic side of things. This wonderful show is the sum of its parts. And every single one of those parts contributes to making it the show we all know and love.

But that's just my two pennies. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:08 pm

Well said, Negaverser. Each and every aspect of the show is what makes this so wonderful to watch and little touches like the shooting stars represent that.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:26 pm

I feel at this point we arent even debating the episode as much as we are an unspoken aspect of Applejack's personal natrative.

I can understand Wayoshi & fensters critique, but at the same time weather this aspect is a weakness or not is subjective imo. And if it didnt matter we wouldnt debate it as much as we have.


Again, no matter the state of the Apple siblings parents, the fact remains they are not there to be an active force in their childrens lives, and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see AJ has done her best to make up for that aspect in her life be it taking care of the farm or taking care of Applebloom.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:34 pm

I just see the shooting stars as a reminder that AJ's parents are watching over them. It's done simply and gets the point across. That's all that's needed. :twasnothin: :eeyup: :anticipation: :granny:
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Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:59 pm

fenster wrote:worthless except as a *wink wink nudge nudge* background detail that only the creators and some extensive fans will understand. This is what I'm getting at here: common viewers (and even a significant portion of the fans!) will not really get the implications of that scene


:pinkieshrug: A lot of my argument, and the reason I mentioned cultural shift, is that I view it as non obscure and common knowledge though it's fallen out of use. Was incredibly surprised by the number of people who didn't get it when AFR first aired. It was subtle...but that's simply being in good taste compared to the various "My parents are DEEEEAAD!!!" comments many, myself included, make at times. I'm shocked we got an episode like Simple Ways before more direct Apple parent confirmation. Now, I'm not going to say StWOM is perfect. It's not. There's ways some of the transition could have been better. A lot arguably falls on the shoulders of not having better lead in to this. But I don't see this as being as OOC as some complain considering some of AJ's past actions and reactions.

Switching gears slightly, there's three things of interest here. One is the reconfirmation of Applejack as a master chef. Food so good, you'll insult yo momma. Second is the fact that a talented carpenter could actually make a variant of AJ's lion tamer chair. Third is AJ getting a Dangerous Mission Outfit. That just leaves Rarity unless we wanna count her biosuit from Bats!.
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Postby Pocket (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:15 pm

Is there still room in the Round Table for this one? I seem to be cursed with checking every active thread in the forum except the new episode thread on Mondays.
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Postby fenster (?) » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:38 pm

kefkafloyd wrote:Their hands are tied. If they could, they would say her parents are dead, but people above them say no, so you have to do it in whatever way possible. It's not rocket surgery.


I'm not saying I don't understand why they don't explicitly say why the parents are dead. And it's not like I'm completely rejecting the idea that the Parents are dead at all. That doesn't really make these episodes where we have ill-defined shifts in characterization any better though, because it's a matter of execution. It's an unfortunate situation, but it doesn't mean that the episodes are above criticism when the motivations are weak.


SoundMonkey44 wrote:it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see AJ has done her best to make up for that aspect in her life be it taking care of the farm or taking care of Applebloom.


This is the part I disagree with, because it's pure speculation. Unless I missed something, we have never seen anything (barring arguably the Star scene but we already covered that) from AJ that implies she acts over protective to "make up" for anything. As we've seen it, She works hard because that's been her life and what she enjoys doing, and she's worried about AB because...I guess she's a normal sister.

I don't really care about whether AJ's parents are alive or dead, since as far as it's been presented this doesn't really matter to AJ's motivations. I care about actually getting a reason for why AJ acted more paranoid in this episode than in recent memory, not speculation. If the writers really intended it to be because of some hidden detail from last season which wasn't clear, then it's simply a faulty writing mistake for something important to be hidden so. They can have whatever excuse, that's fine, but it doesn't make the episode any better.

ZamuelNow wrote::pinkieshrug: A lot of my argument, and the reason I mentioned cultural shift, is that I view it as non obscure and common knowledge though it's fallen out of use. Was incredibly surprised by the number of people who didn't get it when AFR first aired. It was subtle...but that's simply being in good taste compared to the various "My parents are DEEEEAAD!!!" comments many, myself included, make at times.


You kind of answered yourself there. I think time's have changed from whatever that standard you were describing was, or at the very least I would not expect a supposedly big character motivation to be behind this kind of small detail for a kid's show. To put it in example, you could put that kind of scene in Aladdin and it would be fine because nothing in the original Aladdin was reliant on Al's feelings about his parents, but you'd need Al's monologues/feelings and the setup in Aladdin 3 because the whole movie is about Al and his father and requires more detail since it's so crucial.

And I don't think going super subtle as to be only in the background, if it's actually that crucial to AJ's motivations, is the only way to handle this in "good taste". Saying things explicitly isn't necessarily Bad Writing, you just have to not write it badly. :pinkieshrug:

ZamuelNow wrote:But I don't see this as being as OOC as some complain considering some of AJ's past actions and reactions.


Like I said before, I don't completely disagree with this. I do think there is some precedent to AJ's behavior here, and I actually felt AJ was perfectly spot on for what she should've been in this episode.

However, even if I feel that way, it's still very clear that the recent trend of AJ's personality has been completely different from what we see here and the episode made no effort to explain why AJ was acting this way. If this episode came out in S1 or early S2, I wouldn't think much wrong, but it's definitely very late to be pushing this considering we have multiple season's worth of interactions of AJ/AB to go on.
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