S05E07: Make New Friends But Keep Discord

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Re: S05E07: Make New Friends But Keep Discord

Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:14 am

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:amazing: In the event of a water landing, Maude can be used as a flotation device.

Fizzbuzz wrote:I don't think so. Why would Sweetie Belle's cutie mark be a poison joke flower?


:spike101: Its a bluebelle
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:20 am

The Doctor wrote:
:spike101: Its a bluebelle

Blue, five petals, four protruding stamen?
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It's pretty clearly poison joke.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:23 am

My headcanon for the lack of Luna between the S1 premiere and Luna Eclipsed was that Luna was shut away from society for a while - Adjusting, learning about the present day, recuperating, y'know? (Obviously she didn't do a perfect job of it, considering what went down in Ponyville :P)

Not sure what to do with that headcanon now, though. Anyhow, Luna aside, the whole gala seemed a lot... sparser this time around, didn't it? Just a handful of background ponies in attendance, from what we could see. No fancy orchestra, no Wonderbolts VIP section... Sure doesn't give it a "Grand" feel.

Edit: Did we see Blueblood in this episode, by the way? I didn't notice him, but that's not saying a whole lot. :-P
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:23 am



We've actually seen both her eyes since episode 1.

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Headless Horse wrote:That front 3/4 view of Celestia is something they've only started using since S3, and I'm not too sure how I feel about it either. It seems like her snout is too wide.



I think they started using that angle in S2 with Lesson Zero.

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Fizzbuzz wrote:
It's pretty clearly poison joke.


:pinkieshrug: Why would Rarity decorate her sister with Poison Joke?
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:34 am

Headless Horse wrote:So I guess I'll be the one to say it...

If we're looking for something "groundbreaking" in this episode, how about what it did—quite matter-of-factly—with gender roles?

It's pointed out to us front-and-center that the ponies with the invitations are taking their "plus ones" as dates. Maybe it's a turn of phrase, maybe whatever—but the end result is that every couple we see at the Gala, or at least every one we spend any time with, is a same-sex pair. Sure, every one we see also has a reason we should treat it as something other than a date date (the CMCs are going with their big sisters as kind of a sympathetic joke, like the way you'd take your mom to the prom, and Fluttershy and Tree Hugger are obviously just buddies); but the pervasiveness of the way the couples are presented leaves you feeling that something important has been established about this world.

Whether it's saying that the Gala isn't the kind of event you'd take a romantic date to, or that romance is a completely tangential concept to the way you'd approach taking a "plus one" to a fancy dress party, or that dating in Equestria isn't even visibly a heteronormative thing, it's quite a departure from how this sort of idea would ever have been handled in a previous era.

Honestly, for the other five it feels coincidental more than anything else. Keep in mind that they all brought family members (counting Scootaloo as Rainbow Dash's "sister" and assuming Spike was invited via Twilight). Maybe the show would've avoided the "date" phrasing in another era.

In the case of Tree Hugger, it seems like she could've just as easily been a stallion with no effect on the story, so maybe the decision to make her be a mare in this context is the show's way of wanting to not be vanilla straight. I do think the people making this show would like to have more LGBT representation in children's media, but not only is it difficult to put romance into FiM, but the show still has to be sellable to distributors in Russia and other third-world countries that love to oppress anything that's the least bit queer. As such, I think DHX is stuck with only the most roundabout and plausibly deniable opportunities for that, such as Fluttershy and Tree Hugger here or the Lyrabon piano thing in EqG.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 3:18 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Honestly, for the other five it feels coincidental more than anything else. Keep in mind that they all brought family members (counting Scootaloo as Rainbow Dash's "sister" and assuming Spike was invited via Twilight). Maybe the show would've avoided the "date" phrasing in another era.

In the case of Tree Hugger, it seems like she could've just as easily been a stallion with no effect on the story, so maybe the decision to make her be a mare in this context is the show's way of wanting to not be vanilla straight. I do think the people making this show would like to have more LGBT representation in children's media, but not only is it difficult to put romance into FiM, but the show still has to be sellable to distributors in Russia and other third-world countries that love to oppress anything that's the least bit queer. As such, I think DHX is stuck with only the most roundabout and plausibly deniable opportunities for that, such as Fluttershy and Tree Hugger here or the Lyrabon piano thing in EqG.


I actually figured they had Fluttershy take a mare so that it wouldn't be assumed by default that it was a romantic date. Not that I have any issue with the show having a same sex pairing, and for that matter I agree with you that the show staff probably wouldn't have an issue, either, but I think for the most part they try to avoid the appearance of romance regardless of gender. And Fluttershy taking a new male character to the Gala would cause a lot of people to assume that she was in a relationship with them. It's kind of unfortunate, but the show staff do have to consider that sort of thing.

Or maybe she's just dating Tree Hugger. That would be fine too :party:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 3:23 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Lyrabon piano thing in EqG.


On that note, I was kind of surprised to see Lyra at the Gala with a Pegasus

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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 3:25 am

Spikes +1 was the diamond cupcake
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 3:26 am

The Doctor wrote:
On that note, I was kind of surprised to see Lyra at the Gala with a Pegasus

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To be fair, that dude can be seen chatting with pretty much everypony at the Gala at one time or another.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 3:26 am

As usual, Discord shows up and I love it. Really fun and funny episode with a lot of great little pieces to it. The stand-up, Maud, sock puppets, smooze, Celestia, Twilight trying to go all princess mode and the awesomeness that is Tree Hugger, it was a delight.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 3:29 am

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:Spikes +1 was the diamond cupcake


I'm up to three Spike sightings, and he's got food in his claws in each of them:

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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 4:28 am

Headless Horse wrote:My favorite thing in the episode, by the way, was this shit:

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So that's what "Ommm"-ing in horse world looks like, is it. :v: That "eee-ee-eee-ee-ee-ee-eeee" whinnying thing had me doubled over, and they kept on doing it and it kept getting funnier


Doubling this. At first I was wondering what this sonic-attunement-whatever thing was gonna be, like she'll have some inexplicatble magical ability to produce subsonic waves or something dumb. And nope, it's just meditative noises, and really silly ones at that. Ok!

I just realized, those are some serious eyebrows she has going, and I don't recall ever seeing any major or minor non-BG/one-shot pony character with that prominent eyebrows.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 4:37 am

Things I never thought I would see referenced in My Little Pony that now have been:

Metal Gear Solid
Dumb and Dumber
Warhammer 40k
Game of Thrones
The Big Lebowski

Discord is the perfect kind of character to do it. I thought the episode was great. DeLancie is clearly having a blast doing the voicework. I usually don't like referential humor, but I think it worked well here. Just a fun and silly episode. I loved Celestia in it and would really like to see more of her as a bit of a joker and prankster. It fits her so well. Seeing Maud again was pretty cool too.

Didn't see Octavia or Derpy though, which surprised me a bit.
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Postby Jill (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 4:59 am

Liked this episode. :yay: Don't really have much else to say considering it was largely a gag-fest with a very straightforward lesson on jealousy, but I think it delivers about as well as it can on both accounts.

Headless Horse wrote:It's telling us that some people just need more work to be understood; and it also retroactively makes the point that Fluttershy wasn't wrong for seeing that Discord was still a worthwhile person underneath his fuck-everything exterior. She can really see the deep-down values that people have, where someone else might just write them off.
Thank you for at least putting some thought back into this.

I'm beginning to feel like I'm the only person who understood KCFO right away. :-/ It's an amazing episode on its own that by far makes the most important statement of any. There is nothing clumsy about the way it's written and there is no reason any further development should need to justify it to anyone, but I guess that just underlines how profound of a statement it is to some people.
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Postby Juniper Phoenix (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 5:08 am

PaulloDEC wrote:I'm up to three Spike sightings, and he's got food in his claws in each of them:

Congratulations Spike! You're the new Derpy. :-I
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 6:18 am

Never noticed that Spike running gag. Now that I see it, it's pretty funny in its own way.
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 9:44 am

Very good, very enjoyable. :party:

I think for me this is the best episode where Discord's been the main focus. Probably my favourite portayal of Celestia to date as well.

I wondered if Tree Hugger was going to be not very nice when we first saw her, thankfully no. Very Maud-ish voice.

I wondered if we were actually going to see Maud for a while, it took a while for her to show up and we kept seeing Pinkie without her. Seeing Discord getting burned by Maud made it worth the wait though. :v:

Would have been nice to hear The Smooze say a few words but oh well. :pinkieshrug:

Further to previous posts, yeah I think Celestia definitely had a few beers inside her :gotcha: . When she laughed at Discord's joke at Twilights expense was great. And at the end too: :pcstare: "come on Twilight, get your ass on the dancefloor!" (or words to that effect).

Anyway, this ep definitely gets two thumbs up from me, probably doesn't quite top the Rainbow Dash episode but still really really good, my second favourite episode of s5 so far.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 10:12 am

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Postby Homeswirl (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 10:46 am

Wow, that was fun! It didn't do anything grand, the plot was very "cartoon", but they played every piece of it so well. I loved the characterization of Tree Hugger, Discord's misunderstandings, and especially that Fluttershy didn't hold anything back in yelling at Discord at the end. This show does genuine character so incredibly well, with enough exaggeration to make it fun, but not enough to blow it out of believability.

This episode likely had the highest comedic density of any episode yet.

I actually didn't like Celestia's comments at the very end. It felt like too forced and exaggerated of a rehash of S1's GGG. I think something like Twilight realizing Celestia invited him, and a nice :gotcha: would have been much more appropriate.


I literally burst out laughing at flutter-|
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(and also teared up with AJ. :modesty: )

This was 100% :ponydrugs:
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 10:58 am

Jill wrote:I'm beginning to feel like I'm the only person who understood KCFO right away. :-/ It's an amazing episode on its own that by far makes the most important statement of any. There is nothing clumsy about the way it's written and there is no reason any further development should need to justify it to anyone, but I guess that just underlines how profound of a statement it is to some people.


I think it comes down to how much in control people see Fluttershy in that episode. I always felt like she knew what was happening and was giving Discord a chance, but also made it clear that she wasn't her season 1 self anymore who would get backed into a corner by small conflicts. And Discord is an ass, but Fluttershy isn't having any of his shit.

KCFO, to me, was its most significant regarding Fluttershy in this bit:

Rainbow Dash: You see Discord's behind all this, right?
Fluttershy: Oh, of course I do! Do you all think I'm a silly, gullible fool?
Rarity: Only in the sense of being silly and gullible...
Pinkie Pie: [simultaneously] Um, well...
Applejack: [simultaneously] Uh... uh, no, not exactly...
Fluttershy: I've just been trying to gain his friendship any way I can, so he'd come to trust and listen to me!


Fluttershy wants to give Discord a chance and establish a genuine friendship with him, but she's also absolutely and clearly aware of his past and his potential to screw things up. And she knows she can't forcibly change him, but possibly be a positive influence on him. She has shown in several episodes now, including the most recent one, that if things go to far, she puts her hoof down and tells him off. Discord is a jerk, and she knows it. She just wants to help him be less of a jerk if at all possible.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 11:44 am

I agree, and I really liked Keep Calm and Flutter On for the same reason. I think some people saw it and thought Fluttershy was being a battered housewife, that she was passively putting up with Discord's shit and continuously finding ways to justify it to herself. Considering the lines you quoted, I'm not sure how Fluttershy could be seen that way regardless.
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Postby InsertAuthorHere (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 12:22 pm

I did not like KCaFO, but it wasn't because of Fluttershy. In fact, she was the best part of that episode, as she's shown very clearly in control the whole time, despite Discord's attempts to manipulate her. My problem with that episode is that I cannot wrap my head around why reforming Discord was a good idea. He was great as a straight-up one-shot villain, but after coming back, most of his gags feel very forced and he simply isn't funny. Plus, it is awkward to see Celestia happily invite someone who, a year prior in show time, wrecked the entire land, corrupted her student and her friends, and was a particularly nasty overlord to ponies for however long he ruled before the Two Sisters petrified him a thousand years ago. Heck, he had just recently betrayed them all just so he could have fun being evil again, and only felt sorry for it after his "friend" betrayed him.

I think that's why I liked this episode a lot more than most of Discord's stuff. While he's mostly been an annoyance (aside from that lapse into villainy in Twilight's Kingdom), here he's the full-blown antagonist again without making him an actual villain - he still self-realized his friendship lesson, after all. His passive-aggressiveness towards Tree Hugger is hilarious (particularly when he drops the "passive" part), most of the references and jokes he makes are actually funny, and because there are more characters at play here, he's given more to work with than, say, that time he only had Twilight and Cadance to play off of. We also got to see more of the Fluttershy from KCaFO, especially when she chews out Discord for essentially pole vaulting over the line. And the Smooze was hilarious, slightly terrifying, and probably the most sympathetic of the lot. Discorded invited it to the Gala, it got as dressed up as a blob monster could, and then it proceeded to find itself used to make Discord's real friend jealous. At least it got to dance with Pinkie in the end.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 1:58 pm

The trouble with KCaFO for me is pretty simple.

1) I don't believe for a second that the Discord we saw in Return of Harmony could be reformed in the way this episode suggests, or even at all
2) As a result of this, Fluttershy looks astonishingly reckless for giving him so much rope

That being said, the whole Fluttershy/Discord friendship has been a really fun addition to the show, so perhaps the ends justify the means.
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Postby DaBatGuy (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:49 pm

That was a fun episode although it's probably my least favorite Discord focused episode so far. The references are getting a tiring and the conflict was basically Griffon the Brush off again but with a better resolution. Tree Hugger, Maud, and Celestia made this episode great though; Hugger is goofy and adorable, best new character of the season, Maud had the best line in the episode, and Celestia being more informal and playful than she's been in a couple of seasons.

Also poor Spike, I completely missed him at the Gala during my first viewing. I imagined he was still alone in the tree castle terrified of villains popping out of his unmentionables again.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 2:58 pm



Please make these real emotes.

:happylestia:
:shmooze:



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I wish you could do a zoom in animation on these
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 4:52 pm

It was hard to fully buy Discord's reformation at the time with that ambiguous ending KCaFO had, also. Along with the complete change in tone from the largely loved Return of Harmony, and there was ample reason for many to believe that Discord's character was ruined.

No matter how much better KCaFO may look now from a narrative standpoint, the first impression for some was pretty bad, and that will stick.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 5:02 pm

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#rekt, as the foals say.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 8:49 pm

I don't get the title. The phrase is usually "make new friends but keep the old" but "the old" doesn't even remotely sound like "discord" so it doesn't work as a pun unless I'm missing something.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 8:56 pm

Sometimes you have a really neat idea, and you're determined to use it even if it winds up not working out.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 9:03 pm

:allears: Make new friends but keep the old. One is silver and the other is gold.

:pcstare: Well said, Fluttershy! Twilight, why don't you come up with things like that?

:-/
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 9:27 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:The trouble with KCaFO for me is pretty simple.

1) I don't believe for a second that the Discord we saw in Return of Harmony could be reformed in the way this episode suggests, or even at all
2) As a result of this, Fluttershy looks astonishingly reckless for giving him so much rope


I am no great fan of the erstwhile garden gnome myself, but the best explanation I have heard of the obvious personality change that had happened to Discord in Keep Calm and Flutter On is that Discord spent the intervening time since Return of Harmony being Q. Q was a complete ass initially, until (the one true) Captain’s good influence made him (a little) less intolerable.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 9:39 pm

The Doctor wrote:Theory:


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We've now seen the CMC's cutie marks.


Didn't see this post before but I have to say, this seems a little farfetched. Applebloom's might work but I can't see it for Sweetie Belle or Scootaloo at all.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 10:45 pm

Wayoshi wrote:It was hard to fully buy Discord's reformation at the time with that ambiguous ending KCaFO had, also. Along with the complete change in tone from the largely loved Return of Harmony, and there was ample reason for many to believe that Discord's character was ruined.

No matter how much better KCaFO may look now from a narrative standpoint, the first impression for some was pretty bad, and that will stick.


Oh, I get the criticisms, and I'm definitely not gonna tell anyone who's uncomfortable with Discord that they're wrong. However, the episode does present plenty of evidence that Fluttershy isn't the pawn that people might have thought she was. Whether that's enough for anyone to feel okay with Discord as he is now is up to them, but I dunno, Fluttershy should at the very least get the credit she deserves instead of people thinking she's some sad snowflake who hasn't developed enough in 3 seasons to know that Discord is an asshole.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 11:28 pm

PictishBeast wrote:I don't get the title. The phrase is usually "make new friends but keep the old" but "the old" doesn't even remotely sound like "discord" so it doesn't work as a pun unless I'm missing something.


"Discord" sounds a lot more like "the old" than, say, "giraffe" does. Or "mimosa" or "Fahrvergnügen".
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Postby Glazius (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 11:29 pm

Maud Pie: Cosmic Straight Pony does have some heft to it.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 17, 2015 11:55 pm

Perrydotto wrote:people thinking she's some sad snowflake who hasn't developed enough in 3 seasons to know that Discord is an asshole.

MA Larson had just used her that way in Magic Duel. I can see what happened. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 12:35 am

I don't care if he's a jerk, I don't think Fluttershy is oblivious to him or anything, I just feel this whole arc wasn't handled well. Since he's an omnipotent god they had to tone him down a lot to make him part of the cast and frankly he's boring these days. Other than his song I can't remember a single good moment he's had since RoH :rariwhat:

It's subjective and I still liked this episode, but I'd rather see new characters or say, a Celestia or Luna episode rather than more Discord :pinkieshrug:
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 12:42 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:I don't care if he's a jerk, I don't think Fluttershy is oblivious to him or anything, I just feel this whole arc wasn't handled well. Since he's an omnipotent god they had to tone him down a lot to make him part of the cast and frankly he's boring these days. Other than his song I can't remember a single good moment he's had since RoH :rariwhat:

It's subjective and I still liked this episode, but I'd rather see new characters or say, a Celestia or Luna episode rather than more Discord :pinkieshrug:


You didn't like his turn in Twilight's Kingdom? That bit almost justified KCaFO for me, because it showed just how easily Discord could be swayed back to his old ways. That while he is capable of changing for the better, his callous nature and thirst for chaos still lurks beneath the surface.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 12:47 am

I completely understand why people would find Discords arc to be less than good, but I enjoy it. Kind of ironic that people are complaining that an agent of chaos is inconsistent. :v:

I don't see Discord as ever really having become a complete good guy. He'll always be a chaotic trickster. He's just not outwardly malevolent anymore. Really more of a move from chaotic evil to chaotic neutral. I particularly like him as a foil to Twilight. If there was going to be another episode with Discord, I'd like it to be one where Twilight, with no other options left, needs to enlist his help to solve a problem.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 1:07 am

And to reiterate the earlier discussion, if they end up having been able to retroactively recast all his power-tripping and selfishness as the product of just him being poorly socialized and unable to relate to others on basic concepts of Friendship, it'll be a pretty deft thing for the writers to have pulled off.

There but for the grace of Celestia could have gone Twilight. :-I
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