S04E25-26: Twilight's Kingdom

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Re: Let's Re-Watch Week 22 : Twilight's Kingdom

Postby Homeswirl (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:48 pm

Wylie wrote:I would love to have been a fly on the wall during the writer's retreat when they were blocking this story out.

:ponynet: "We have to get Twilight into 'righteous fury' mode. How do we do that?"

:smirk: "We... we have to kill books. It's the only way."


Personally, I think it was a toy mandate. Princess Twilight needs a Castle, so the library gets Optimus Prime'd and the PT castle toy sets are immediately released.

Even though I don't buy MLP merch, it's still a travesty that a library playset was never released. As a kid, sometimes having basic "home base" and regular "town" stuff was more desirable than all the flashy kit, because it was a better frame of reference for more dramatic play, and in the end more versatile than all the specialized toys.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:39 pm

Headless Horse wrote:
Not just that, but let's be honest: we've already seen Celestia and Luna in a knock-down drag-out brawl once this season. (We've even seen Cadance fighting.) If they went into horn-lasers mode again here, it would only serve to make us all more :-/ than we already were.

I really think the writers go to great lengths to avoid retreading the same ground; they always have. Sometimes it even gets to the point of being distracting or leading to a plot hole, when they're so obsessed with doing something original that they miss an obvious route that would have been more predictable. But frankly it's always been one of the things I've respected most about the show (i.e. always handling the friendship letter differently every single time), and I'll happily take it over a bunch of lazy rehashes of the same plot formulas over and over.


Well that's part of the plot hole. Give Celestia or Luna the power and Tirek is defeated in a few seconds. Twilight has no experience controlling power like that or any experience fighting Tirek. Despite that, she managed to draw with Tirek. Put a pony against him with the same power, but also has experience using power like that and experience against the enemy and they would probably have won.

But they needed the Twilight fight scene, it didn't have to make sense how they got there.
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Postby Discord (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:11 pm

I still love this episode. :awesomedash:

It cashes in on all the anxiety that even the fanbase was having on Twilight's role so brilliantly, making it feel like it was an on-going thing even if they didn't address it much during the season.

"You'll Play Your Part" is, for my money, the best song of the series. It may not be the catchiest, or even the most musically strong (though it's up there), but they pack so many layers of meaning in it for young girls watching that I just adore it. :allears:

Discord's arc gets a really satisfying resolution here, and they play it excellently. They keep him on the line between friend and foe all season, which pays off very well. It's a believable betrayal, and a believable rise.

The fight sequence is awesome. I don't care if it's cliché or too anime; it's loads of fun and legitimately suspenseful. The emotion and stakes are higher than ever, and I for one love the blowing up of the tree for that reason. The animation on is incredible for flash. And you know what, I like that we have a little girls' cartoon that's willing to throw in a badass fight sequence like that. It's not typical of ponies, but I think it works as a one-off given the circumstances. Plus, I really appreciate the lack of dialogue throughout it; makes it feel more realistic in a sense, because really, what can Twilight say at that point to convey her loss and anger?

The rainbow power and the new tree have grown on me. The tree does feel out of place, but I'm fairly sure that'll get addressed. They set up a lot of cool story possibilities in this episode, much like MMC, and I look forward to seeing those flourish.

And I admire McCarthy a lot for this:

Twilight Sparkle: As princess, I believe I have the power to spread the magic of friendship across Equestria. That is the role I am meant to have in our world! The role I choose to have!


She put so much effort into really digging into popular culture's ideas of the princess and transforming it into something more progressive for young girls. And she succeeds, capped off superbly with this line. That, in my mind, is more important than any criticsm you can lobby against this episode.


The Doctor wrote:
Well that's part of the plot hole. Give Celestia or Luna the power and Tirek is defeated in a few seconds. Twilight has no experience controlling power like that or any experience fighting Tirek. Despite that, she managed to draw with Tirek. Put a pony against him with the same power, but also has experience using power like that and experience against the enemy and they would probably have won.

But they needed the Twilight fight scene, it didn't have to make sense how they got there.


This presumes that Celestia and Luna thought that the alicorn magic could go up against Tirek at that point, but I don't think they did. And considering how close it was, that's an understandable mistakes. Plus, I'd argue that all of Twilight's magical studying, in combination with her raw emotion in that fight, may have made her as good a wielder for that magic against Tirek as Celestia or Luna would be.
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Postby Homeswirl (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:23 am

Discord wrote:She put so much effort into really digging into popular culture's ideas of the princess and transforming it into something more progressive for young girls. And she succeeds, capped off superbly with this line.

One thing I really admire about this show is that it doesn't fall into the whole GRRL POWAH pendulum swing cliche. It simply uses strong female characters and doesn't construct strawmen against the norms it's breaking away from.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:01 am

:crack: :iamapony: I absolutely adore this two-parter so much, for so many reasons. It brings out so many feels for me!
Enjoyed reading through reactions and thoughts about the finale from all of you, and now I feel its time for me to unleash my own thoughts!!
I decided to do a constant stream-of-thought analysis as I re-watched this time (and needing to rewind a few times too, then lots of editing lol), and I admit its quite wordy...
but please bare with me! :twonk: :amazing:

~ ~ ~ ~
I enjoy that they've established the Crystal Empire (though honestly it seems more like Crystal City-State in its modern form) as an equally important seat of political power for the alicorn tetrarchy.

On the one hand I feel that Spike went too far, especially with his half-assed follow up of 'i mean wow, really regal and important', but on the other hand it did seem that he truly didn't mean it on purpose, why would he? Poor guy slipped up his personal opinion again to hurt a friend's feelings.

Princess Twilight's personal crisis of identity and purpose seems like something a lot of well-meaning lower ranking political figures and celebrities may go through. Here she is being admired and gawked at by everyone for her new status, but she can't stand all the fluff. I find the Duke of Maretonia's request to leave Twilight out of the loop for international politics quite insulting. I can't help but wonder why Celestia even allowed for it.

Twilight's opening part of the song hits me deep in the gut, as I'm sure it has a powerful effect on many of us who feel lost and uncertain of what path or direction to follow down in life, or finding the path we're on is more confusing and frustrating and uncertain than we originally hoped. Princess Twilight's uncertainty is a perfect representation for the growing young fans that have watched her over the past years, many probably becoming teenagers for the first time recently!

The three elder alicorns really truly care for the happiness and well-being of their youngest protege! I feel like many fans don't give them slack in regards to the 'no straight answer', because we are viewing and analyzing the show through modern perceptions guided by logic and the five senses. These are creatures of magic and mystery, guided by powerful intuition and vague cosmic energies. Very little is crystal clear to them. I'm definitely one of those proponents of 'Celestia destiny sense', where she doesn't know absolutely everything, just gets powerful feelings and awareness of what may occur.

The grand finale of the Alicorn's song honestly looks and feels like some kind of initiation ritual! The way they circle Twilight, the way they shower her symbolism! She is after all a magical beast of destiny on the edge of her enlightenment, hehe.

I feel its interesting to note that Twilight has worried sad eyes throughout most of the song, understandably. She is worried and stressed, and her three goddess superiors siniging to her might be reassuring, but probably also overwhelming! There are three moments where she visibly cheers up: when Luna expresses how hard it is to wait to 'spread your wings and soar', when Cadence tells her how gifted and strong she is, and when Celestia gives her a big snuggle hug at the end!

Usually I would consider the 'suddenly, sinister villain!' intro to be too much of a mood whiplash, but the music perfectly evolves from the serene ending reassurance to the moody night tension! Tirek's reappearance is an exciting and giddy moment for most oldschool G1 fans, I know I thought it was awesome! The interesting part though is how much of his character invokes attributes of other G1 villains just as much, his intro scene invoking an energy/age-stealing human witch Somnambula, and a nightmare sequence of the demon goat Grogar, in particular.

I don't think Tirek purposefully meant to alert the moon and sun sisters to his presence, despite the implication that he seemed to be 'looking at' Celestia. It is simply too dangerous for him to expose himself so early, after all. I love the moment of vision discussion between the sisters, it gives a glimpse of just how hyper-aware Luna seems to be at all times.

A return to the storybook format is awesome, and OMG Scorpan from G1 Looks SO ADORABLE!! I do still hope he shows up in season 5 and become involved with Spike. He was the original caretaker of G1 Spike after all! It is really interesting to see him portrayed as Tirek's nicer brother rather than just a prince-turned-monster slave-general like in G1, though I can see how both backgrounds might overlap a bit...

Pretty sure Twilight expressed how glad she was about Cereberus being free back in 'It's About Time!', if only because she thought it meant she was guaranteed to solve a crisis. Eat your words, princess! Cadence can be so warm sometimes, in stark contrast to how Celestia can be cold sometimes. “I know just the princess who can stop him” followed up with “NO, Twilight.” Feels like she just shot down Twilight after lifting her up on a pedestal. True, she's going by what she thinks is the most tactical choice at the moment in sending Discord, but still.

I feel truly terrible for Fluttershy being stuck in the middle between her mane six buddies and Discord all the time. She is very often expressing silent discomfort in the background. Discord may be obnoxious, and he certainly was downright horrible when they first met him, but these ponies can certainly learn how to be more forgiving. Applejack, Rainbow Dash and Rarity in particular never, ever cut him any slack. Like a proper trickster god, discord is willingly giving the mane six helpful info, but in as convoluted and indirect a way as possible. Of course, he knows Twilight is smart and perceptive enough to realize about their journal for the chest.

Tirek and Discord's alley scene reminds me of the power-play and intrigue between deadly villains back in the original G1 series, something rare in G4, where they're usually focused on the mane six or the alicorns. Tirek is clever and crafty, but much of that is due to his inherent awareness of others 'magical power level' (for lack of a better term). He knows right off the bat that he cannot defeat Discord in his current state, and Discord on his part displays a rare moment of sinister power and domination that he never really expresses since his reformation.

Quite frankly these two are about even on the 'creepy sinister' factor when they want to be! That literal head-splitting moment, complete with frowning glare, wow. Tirek and Discord are likely of the same 'type' of creature in the world, they are both demons, essentially. They crave power and control beyond all else, in any way possible. 'Freedom' is the magic word and it is not much more for Discord to be tempted to teeter away from his truce and revert to his selfish depravity again.

The follow-up scene connecting all the lessons about their elements the mane six learned is a great way to show how Discord is able and willing to become a friend, though! I personally wish that they did show a small clip of each moment that the ponies had their self revelations, but I am glad they at least showed the breezies leaving, Seabreeze bowing, and Fluttershy's sadness. That was a really moving moment of an episode I really enjoyed.

Pinkie Pie's madness saves the day again, or maybe its just that Boneless is such a helpful rubber chicken, haha! It makes the most 'magic sense' for their objects of element awareness to simply transform to the keys, its fairly 'straight forward'. Twilight once more feels frustrated for not having a key and being 'not good enough', but Spike knows just what to say this time! He really can be such a sweetheart, an underdog of encouragement!

Then right on cue, Twilight's destiny comes into motion. The scene with Discord and Tirek in the theatre is truly disturbing, showing quite clearly how Discord immensely enhances Tirek's capability of devouring magic, bringing him into a place where he can access so much so quickly! Its also pretty clear Discord is sadistically enjoying aiding his new demon buddy in devouring the ponies' magic. The fadeback to Twilight expressing sincere surprise and outrage at Discord's betrayal really hits home how she has been gradually warming up to him, her hurt seems real.

Celestia's words of 'rid ourselves of our magic' sound defeatist, but the look in her eyes speaks of determination and certainty. She may have made a mistake before, but she doesn't intend to make another one during this demon crisis! Now all rests on Twilight's shoulders, her elders sacrificing their powers in a bid to defeat Tirek. Tirek not knowing anything about a 4th alicorn, though a confusing plot hole, is ultimately irrelevant, because he is guaranteed to find out anyway. When Celestia warns that Twilight's friends shouldn't get involved in this mission, I do believe that she is not expressing worry about Tirek so much as she is about how INSANELY POWERFUL Twilight has become. She very nearly injures Spike and does sudden bursts of dangerous magic, after all!

Discord sensing the magic transfer and not admitting it to Tirek is interesting, shows he doesn't fully trust Tirek yet, keeping a card up his sleeve. The ritual of transferring the alicorn magic was well done, it looked very difficult and risky and stressful indeed. Twilight twitching with magical energy in mid-air reminds me of when she first unleashed her own magic in the flashback of Cutie Mark Chronicles. This really seems to drive home how she's a living conduit for magic in general! Those poor alicorns at the end look so exhausted, and its so strange seeing Celestia and Luna without wavy manes (lucky for Cadence she's a demi-god and doesn't have to deal with that loss to begin with!).

Considering all the high stakes tension going on, it's nice to have a goofy 'lol dorky Twilight' scene with her accidentally flinging books around, and failing to lower the moon and raise the sun in a proper elegant manner. Celestia and Luna make it look so easy, lol!

Shining Armor makes an honourable stand against impossible odds, and it is sad to see Discord and Tirek being so callous and sadistic towards him. Discord is truly back to his old sociopath ways at this point. Tirek also expresses his first moment of being a 'cool bro buddy' with Discord, offering for him to go be an ass to the poor Canterlot ponies, tho its possible he just didnt want interference while he focused on the alicorns, too.

I admire the courage and tenacity of the Alicorn princesses. They stand their ground as the ruthless conqueror smashes through their throne room, willing to face the demon and bide Twilight time to control her new powers. Celestia's little peek at Tirek when his face lights up with a rare moment of shock and surprise was fantastic, even moreso when she gives him a smug glare at his angry confusion. She certainly knows how to be in control, even when she's technically not! Luna just frowns and glares, and Cadence seems to be doing her 'breathe in, breathe out' exercise, none of them phased.

Twilight continues to invoke absurd degrees of magic energy, nearly injuring Spike as she takes off! All her friends are understandably worried, and its sweet how Rarity offers their company, but Twilight is worried of her friends being seriously hurt, whether by her or Tirek. Twilight's dismissal of her friends, and going it alone, is a subtle callback to when her friends suggested that Twilight should stay behind when they went on the quest for the Tree of Harmony. Now it is the others who feel frustrated and left out of the grand adventure!

Tirek shows how arrogant and short-sighted he can be, so sure that the alicorns tossed away their magic as a last moment panic that still guarantees his victory. He should know better, considering they've captured him before! The 'gate to hell' sequence was pretty badass, flinging the alicorns into Tartarus like that.

But then a moment later we see Discord asking 'You meant OUR will, DIDN'T you?' while apparently toying with the alicorns on one of the stained glass window. Its quite probably metaphorical, but the symbolism is still kind of scary and disturbing. It really drives home how these two are still on the same level, without that alicorn magic, and Tirek can certainly sense it. He is not willing to screw with Discord yet, he knows he can't win.

It's entirely possible that Tirek was honestly willing to consider Discord a buddy at this point too. He did help Tirek A LOT, after all. In fact, guaranteeing victory that he wouldn't have had otherwise. Certainly seemed to like the 'comedy buddy stained glass' window. Whether he really is grateful or not, his attitude and behaviour certainly changes when he realizes Discord has held back knowledge about the 4th alicorn, becoming aggressive and pushy with his fellow demon again. Discord on his part still believes a token of gratitude proves their friendship, misplacing what he learned from ponies and placing such expectations of social conduct on a fellow demon!

Discord's betrayal of Fluttershy is truly heartbreaking, foolishly letting his ego and selfishness get in the way of true friendship and compassion. The way he addresses her and scoffs at her sadness is cruel. Now that Tirek has devoured the magic of the admittedly powerful mane five ponies, it would seem he can take on Discord now. The lord of chaos has visably proven his untrustworthiness multiple times now, so any possible gratitude Tirek felt for his help is absolutely gone now, and he doesn't hesitate to graphically devour Discord's own magic and verbally condemn him. That Applejack willingly expresses concern for Discord shows how empathic these pony creatures are, and Discord certainly feels all the worse for what a treacherous jerk he has been.

The beautiful shot with the old Everfree Castle in the background, with Twilight standing over the cliff edge, then expressing 'I can do this!' and teleporting down in an effort to control her magic. I LOVED this bit, this is SUCH a callback to original G1 Twilight's 'I wish, I wish, I wish!' sequence on the cliff edge in the very first special!

Twilight's final battle with the jerk invader demon begins! Evasive maneuvers and reconnaissance is what she has in mind at first, trying to determine how best to fight Tirek. But he senses her position, and suddenly all planning and tactics are gone. She has but a moment to save Owlowiscious, but loses the tree house library, her home and place of memories for four seasons now! Anyone who has lost a home dear to them so suddenly and terribly would justifiably feel anger and fury! She does not hold back in her magic assault, nor should she have any reason to. It's clear Tirek has no qualms about inadvertently injuring or killing others in his quest for power, and she is the only one who can stop him now!

The fight sequence is, honestly, quite cathartic. This isn't just her rage and resentment of the tree-house loss, of the protective counter-offensive to save her loved ones, this is also her unleashing all the pent up frustration and uncertainty she's had for quite some time, not knowing who or what she really is, and having what little cohesion and stability in her life being threatened by this complete asshole. Why would she hold back? Why would he? This background of emotion and ego is what intense meaningful fights are made of. As the dust settles, after all the savagery and brutality, the lack of mercy, the demi-god and the demon are still completely intact.

Tirek realizes this, and his declaration of 'it appears we are at an impasse' is almost word for word the social stalemate Discord has with the mane six over their accusations back in the season premiere... only with much more at stake this time! Tirek plays his final card, threatening the safety of her dearest friends if Twilight does not give in and relinquish her power to him. It would seem as though Celestia's '4 in 1' alicorn magic gambit was for nothing, but in truth this stage of Twilight's destiny manifesting would not have been reached if she didn't have anything to barter with to begin with, and the rule of alicorns over Equestria would've been over already!

Her friends ask not to give in, and Discord throws in his two cents of his shame and realization of what he has thrown away: the magic of friendship. Twilight experiences the rainbow vision like her fellow elements before her, all the pieces clicking into place, as she realizes what is truly important in life. She may be giving Tirek ultimate power, but with her friends she knows there is always a chance to strike back! Nothing is impossible with the power and magic of friendship!

Then she reaches her true zenith when she demands 'release ALL my friends', even Tirek questioning her choice of releasing a manipulative traitor. She is adamant though, because she has learned how to accept and how to forgive, to accept the possibility of what Discord COULD be: her true friend.

Discord and Fluttershy share a brief emotional exchange: 'I'm sorry' / 'I know'. It is Fluttershy who is hurt most of all, and I do hope Discord makes an active attempt to reflect the kindness of the pony who first opened up to him now.

I hate to cast a snarky aside at this point, but I have to say that the one thing that really bugs me with this finale is this moment where Discord and Twilight are having this shared revelation of sorts... but isn't Tirek growing to INSANE SIZE with the SHEER POWER he just stole.. RIGHT NEXT TO THEM? Shouldn't you all be running the hell out of the way before you get squashed first? Lol!

Discord realizes what Twilight has done for him, knowing that it would’ve cost her nothing to let him suffer as an abused lackey for Tirek, or just left to rot with no-one in the world willing to give a damn about a de-powered trickster. He sees that she sees that he is still worthy of compassion and friendship, and now he truly understands what is most important in his long and lonely life.

And so the princess of order and the lord of chaos invoke the final puzzle piece for the flower chest of the Tree of Harmony, Discord having willingly guided the Mane Six into realizing the other pieces, to help unlock more magic from what was once his greatest foe (the tree itself). All the mane six are now infused with the doubly enhanced energy of their elements, now carrying the lessons of self-awareness and self-restraint that they all had to learn to better represent the elements. These ponies are not perfect, just humble enough to learn and grow, and that's the key!

Tirek is justifiably furious that there is – to his clouded eyes – an absurd deux ex machina rising up before him, the mane six having now become the living embodiment of old G1 Tirek's most deadly foe: the Rainbow of Light! “How is this possible!? You have no magic!” How little he understands! Friendship. is. Magic!

The Tree of Harmony awards the mane six and spike for all their learning and growth, invoking a new home for Twilight, a new tree manifested from her own trials, and those of her friends! The sacrifice of Golden Oaks library tree-house was not in vain, and is likely not to be forgotten anytime soon, for now all the lessons and love she has experienced in that home has manifested in this new home.

Discord feels small and ashamed amongst these empathic creatures that have given him so much while he has tried to take so much away, but Twilight gladly levitates him into the circle of friendship, and they share a big group hug for the first time! Even trickster gods deserve the opportunity to learn and grow! He does make one final selfish clueless quip, but hey, chaos will be chaos, and he doesn’t mean bad by it: Fluttershy understands!

The final song welcomes the citizens of Ponyville to the castle of their Princess and her Mane Six Knights, excited and overjoyed for her sake. The Mane Six have done so much for them and vice-versa, after all, and now they have a place to invoke the Rainbow of Light to spread magic of friendship across the land!

The final callback to each of the ponies that have shared lessons of the elements is a beautiful final touch, really tying in all the cohesiveness of this Tree of Harmony storyline, showing everyone more content than they were before!

Discord presents 'Im sorry' flowers to his ancient enemy Celestia, but its assured she has forgiven the demon already.

The final group shot photo ends the finale on a homely cozy note after all the wild fantasy epic intensity, and so it ends, before it begins the next season!
~ ~ ~

Thank you to anyone who has bothered to read through all this, I feel really passionate about this finale, especially with the various subtle (and less subtle) ties it has to the original G1 Dream Valley series, in particular the epic adventure tone and the high intensity of emotions.
I am very happy with how this series has progressed, and I hope that it has encouraged many people to be more loving in their lives!
:excite: :whatsup: :hilarious: :wink: :party: :3:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:15 am

Discord wrote:This presumes that Celestia and Luna thought that the alicorn magic could go up against Tirek at that point, but I don't think they did. And considering how close it was, that's an understandable mistakes. Plus, I'd argue that all of Twilight's magical studying, in combination with her raw emotion in that fight, may have made her as good a wielder for that magic against Tirek as Celestia or Luna would be.

That's definitely how they pitched it to Twilight in the episode: "You're the Element of Magic -- this is your specialty."

I think we assume that Celestia and Luna have gone through thousands of years of carving their utopia out of some horrible nightmare land, so they must be ultra-badasses who can just drop the literal sun on anyone who seriously challenges them, but given how rarely they try to leap into the fray, maybe they aren't actually that good at fighting anymore.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:13 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:That's definitely how they pitched it to Twilight in the episode: "You're the Element of Magic -- this is your specialty."

I think we assume that Celestia and Luna have gone through thousands of years of carving their utopia out of some horrible nightmare land, so they must be ultra-badasses who can just drop the literal sun on anyone who seriously challenges them, but given how rarely they try to leap into the fray, maybe they aren't actually that good at fighting anymore.


Celestia knew when to get involved in the mirror arc. Other comic arcs show her and Luna far more involved than in the show. I think it's just more of the pattern the last few seasons that Celestia and Luna in the show are just their jobs, not characters. There to dispense sagely wisdom and exposition, and usually get captured.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 1:46 pm

Discord wrote:She put so much effort into really digging into popular culture's ideas of the princess and transforming it into something more progressive for young girls. And she succeeds, capped off superbly with this line. That, in my mind, is more important than any criticsm you can lobby against this episode.


Echoing this. They really dug in their heels on the idea of princessing being a job, rather than an end in itself. "Smiling and waving" is unequivocally shown as being the worst possible thing for Twilight's career aspirations. That's the whole premise of her arc in the season and the episode in particular—she wants being a princess to be more than just looking pretty with accessories, which is a rather neat microcosm of the idea of female empowerment itself.

:wingsright:

THIS IS NOT A COSTUME AND IT IS NOT OKAY :twonk:
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Postby Ransom (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:06 pm

The Doctor wrote:
Celestia knew when to get involved in the mirror arc. Other comic arcs show her and Luna far more involved than in the show. I think it's just more of the pattern the last few seasons that Celestia and Luna in the show are just their jobs, not characters. There to dispense sagely wisdom and exposition, and usually get captured.


Yeah, and to some extent I understand that's just sort of the nature of the beast with this show. That or Celestia just feels she's put her time in already.

:dwi: Look, I've dealt with monsters and Equestria threatening villains ALONE for 1000 freaking years. This is MY time to kick back and delegate.

I actually do sort of get the giving of their magic to Twilight from the perspective of A: Giving her more time to unlock the box and B: letting one pony wield all that magic in concentrated attack form. As said, Twilight is the element of magic and may actually have some inherent skills at fighting as opposed to the other princesses. I'm thinking of Twilight's concentrated blast on Tirek vs four weaker beams.

Still, yeah, I would have liked Celestia to do more. I don't need another laser fight, just something beyond delegating to Twilight here.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:41 pm

Ransom wrote:

We do know from the Canterlot Wedding arc that Celestia knows at least some offensive spell, Luna knows one from Zecora's potion flashback, and even Cadence has an attack in the form of her "Love Nova" (I've got no actual names for it, so I'm just making one up). Clearly, 4 vs 1 would be possible, but that doesn't necessarily make it effective. Given how much Tirek was affected by even the massive bolts Twilight threw at him, it's clear that something so small as the individual Princesses lasers would have done absolutely jack unless they combined them together, which (guess what?) they just happened to do through Twilight.

That's really the best possibility I can think for Celestia to play her cards this way, and it does make some sense. After all of this thought, hiding Twilight from Tirek doesn't seem like it was the only reason for the transfer after all.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:44 pm

By the way, I liked that one little throwaway line that suggests Luna inhabits Discord's dreams just like everyone else's. :amazing:
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Postby Discord (?) » Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:02 pm

Headless Horse wrote:By the way, I liked that one little throwaway line that suggests Luna inhabits Discord's dreams just like everyone else's. :amazing:


I didn't fully appreciate it the first time around, but I considered it on this rewatch and smirked a little. There's a lot of comedic possibilities with that one.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:10 am

Headless Horse wrote:By the way, I liked that one little throwaway line that suggests Luna inhabits Discord's dreams just like everyone else's. :amazing:

Wait, what?
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Postby Discord (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:30 am

Ransom wrote:Wait, what?


Roughly-

:excellent: Maybe they should make me an alicorn princess.

:rainbert: In your dreams.

:excellent: Oh, I never dream of such things. Ask princess Luna.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:55 am

Discord wrote:
Roughly-

:excellent: Maybe they should make me an alicorn princess.

:rainbert: In your dreams.

:excellent: Oh, I never dream of such things. Ask princess Luna.


I loved that moment, Rainbow Dash making him 'knock it off', literally with a punch to the crown!

Luna probably can visit Discord's dreams, it seems implied they're on equal level when it comes to otherworldly powers!
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:18 am

That, and the night trump chaos when it comes to dreams anyways, so Luna's the magical trump card on that front.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:47 am

:pcstare: So ... You've spied in on Discord's dreams ... Is he planning anything underhanded?
:unenthused: He caught me.
:areyousure: Oops.
:speakest: He said that trust was a two way street.
:gotcha: He's right, you know.
:unenthused: what a jerk!
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:11 pm

Amethyst_Gem wrote:I enjoy that they've established the Crystal Empire (though honestly it seems more like Crystal City-State in its modern form) as an equally important seat of political power for the alicorn tetrarchy.


[Lots and lots of good points snipped]

My interpretation of that aspect was that the Crystal Empire, being away from the center of power that Canterlot must represent housing as it does the two celestial Princesses, is a more low-key, neutral meeting ground for sensitive dealings with foreign dignitaries. Besides, they just spent untold fortunes on shining the place up for the Games, so why not reuse it?

Late to this discussion. This is clearly IMO a good to very good episode, though I would not have predicted that it would win the EqD's best episode competition. That OTOH had more to do with the structure of the voting process (season per season)—in a direct vote I think the results might have been different.
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Postby everyponytothelimit (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:09 pm

I wonder how much of that was just "omg explosions and dbz fights" or that it's the most recent episode. It's a good episode(s), don't get me wrong, but best in show? Especially when the runner up was Luna Eclipsed, which again, decent episode but we all know it got voted for because of "precious Woona".

Not intending to knock anyone who does actually consider either of those their favourite or the best, just, you know.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:15 pm

everyponytothelimit wrote:I wonder how much of that was just "omg explosions and dbz fights" or that it's the most recent episode. It's a good episode(s), don't get me wrong, but best in show? Especially when the runner up was Luna Eclipsed, which again, decent episode but we all know it got voted for because of "precious Woona".

Not intending to knock anyone who does actually consider either of those their favourite or the best, just, you know.

When was their poll conducted? If it happened shortly after this episode aired then I see why the hype would have sent it right to the top. (And if they love Luna so much, what did they think of For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils? :smirk:)
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:57 pm

EQD has been doing their favorite episode polls for the past couple of weeks.

They split the episodes into seven brackets of thirteen. This one took over thirty percent of the poll with Pinkie Pride (thee other season 4 episode) in second.

Oddly enough the episode that git last place in the final round was Magical Mystery Cure which won it's round by the smallest a amount and was the most controversial episode in the group.
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Postby everyponytothelimit (?) » Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:06 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:When was their poll conducted? If it happened shortly after this episode aired then I see why the hype would have sent it right to the top. (And if they love Luna so much, what did they think of For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils? :smirk:)


The finals were fairly recent, but as Niels mentioned it was done in season or half-season brackets and I don't know when those started. The brackets I think might have hurt some episodes, because for example the second season 2 group had Putting Your Hoof Down against Hurricane Fluttershy which would divide Fluttershy fans, although Canterlot Wedding is a pretty deserving winner anyway.

Just from a brief look it seems that episodes that have 'memey' or 'nerdy' content tend to do disproportionately well compared to more all around solid episodes (IMO, of course). Luna Eclipsed and Sleepless both did very well, although For Whom not so much. Magic Duel gets huge ups (Trixie) although Boast Busters doesn't. Bats! and It's about Time both do surprisingly well. Spike episodes are pretty much universally despised :shepspike: The almost universally praised Sisterhood social lost horribly to Luna and Lesson Zero, which while solid episodes, seem to be praised more for being more quotable and having Luna and silly Twilight faces. Same goes for Party of One. Generally the trend is episodes that introduce or deal with fan-favourite characters, memes, concepts and songs, sometimes, did very well, at least compared to my own, limited perception of how the episodes were received generally by fans. Other than those few exceptions things generally match up how you'd expect ie. MMDW, Daring Don't, Games Ponies Play and other not well thought of episodes didn't get voted for :iiam:

I want to emphasize again that this is not an attack or complaint against anyone who does consider any of those episodes the best or their favourite. I actually really like consider many of those I just listed to be quite good! It's just a trend I noticed and I like considering those kinds of uh, pop-psychology statistics type things.

...

sorry for the derail. I'd say more about Twilight's Kingdom but most of what I'd say has been said so I'll summarize:

Good episode, good lesson, good song, great villains, impressive visuals, exciting direction, high stakes, some plot holes but who cares about those it's talking magic horse time for five year olds, gaudy toy tie-ins but that's to be expected its talking magic horse time for five year olds.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:35 am

You know, if we're to take the bookmarks literally, then the 5 'key' episodes occur in a far, far different manner than what they were broadcasted as...
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:08 am

Dexanth wrote:You know, if we're to take the bookmarks literally, then the 5 'key' episodes occur in a far, far different manner than what they were broadcasted as...


Ha! Good point. I had not considered that. Chronology within seasons is iffy at best.

Edit: Upon reflection, it occurs to me that it is more likely that our Purple Princess of OCD chaptered the book prior to lending it to her friends.
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Postby Sobana (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:58 am

Maybe each of of them just had their own section to write in the book? :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:10 am

Dexanth wrote:You know, if we're to take the bookmarks literally, then the 5 'key' episodes occur in a far, far different manner than what they were broadcasted as...

Meghan McCarthy has said that she can't know for certain the order in which a season's episodes will be aired, short of obvious things like the premiere and finale. As such that restricts the amount of intra-season continuity; i.e. the show can easily reference events from past seasons, but when referencing something that happened in the same season, the reference has to be incredibly vague (unless it's in the finale) so that it doesn't confuse viewers should Hasbro or the network randomly decide to fuck with the airing order. In future seasons, I do hope Meghan and the gang can get an assurance that episodes will actually air in the order that they specify, so that they can then do a proper season-long story arc instead of having to save everything for the finale.
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Postby Sobana (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:42 pm

That is strange. They should at least show them in order the first time before scrambling them up like that. Can you imagine if they they did that with Avatar. :v:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:52 pm

That sort of thing has fucked shows up in the past. For example, Firefly (the early 2000s cult classic sci-fi TV series) got a rather lukewarm reception from general audiences due to Fox airing its episodes out of order, overly pre-empting it for football, and canceling it only after 11 of its 14 episodes aired.
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Postby Sobana (?) » Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:09 pm

You think they would treat thier best show with more respect. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Sat May 30, 2015 8:30 pm

I finally got around to seeing this. It was honestly really mediocre and predictably. I'm really hoping they'd change the Twilight episodes for the finales and premiers eventually. It seemed to change a bit towards the end, but it'd be better if it was more of a team effort from the start.

And Tirek was okay I guess, though I'm hoping this is the end of the whole "Can we trust Discord" thing.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat May 30, 2015 8:31 pm

Keep watching :-I
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 30, 2015 8:40 pm

ShieldedDiamond wrote:I finally got around to seeing this. It was honestly really mediocre and predictably. I'm really hoping they'd change the Twilight episodes for the finales and premiers eventually. It seemed to change a bit towards the end, but it'd be better if it was more of a team effort from the start.

And Tirek was okay I guess, though I'm hoping this is the end of the whole "Can we trust Discord" thing.


I didn't like this episode either and S5 so far has been a wonderful surprise.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat May 30, 2015 8:42 pm

ShieldedDiamond wrote:I finally got around to seeing this. It was honestly really mediocre and predictably. I'm really hoping they'd change the Twilight episodes for the finales and premiers eventually. It seemed to change a bit towards the end, but it'd be better if it was more of a team effort from the start.

And Tirek was okay I guess, though I'm hoping this is the end of the whole "Can we trust Discord" thing.


You're in luck...I think you'll love the S5 premiere. :allears:
:plonk: Image :)
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