S06E01-02: The Crystalling

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Re: S06E01-02: The Crystalling

Postby Sidotsy (?) » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:16 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:If anything, I was a little bothered that they ended with Twilight beating herself up because her friendship lesson wasn't perfect. Sure, she and Spike should have realized friendships need to grow naturally, but that, "Oh no, I failed everyone!" ending seems to be really common for Twilight puppet master episodes. Just let it play out as her goofy checklist obsession (like they paint it at the beginning of the episode), and have Twilight say, "Oh, that's a much better way of making friends! :-I" at the end.


naw, she just learned a lesson that friendship is best learned by DOING stuff yourself instead of learning from books. Just like she had to do. I think that's really important and she isn't going to beat herself up over it anymore, I think she'll make a better teacher now for realizing that.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:25 pm

I didn't mind that Twilight felt foolish about it. I am also glad it didn't turn into a multi-episode arc. Twilight seeing how silly her approach to things were was a nice touch. She's a teacher, but she's still got a long way to go in her own journey. Having her learn to let Starlight walk on her own was a good lesson for her.
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sat Mar 26, 2016 11:28 pm

Episode was alright. Starlight is pretty okay by me. That's about it. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:01 am

PictishBeast wrote:I liked how Celestia and Luna told Rainbow Dash to stay away from the storm clouds for her own safety--they, the immortal alicorn princesses, would handle it

Then at the end of the episode Dash is up there busting clouds anyway :jingo:


And then she gets her wings frozen solid, so she comes down and runs with the group with this shell-shocked :starity: expression on her face, that was great :lol:

Also she was still covered with ice in the next scene when they burst into the crystal heart room.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:15 am

One thing that I couldn't help thinking about on a meta level throughout this was how they were drumming on baby magic being a key plot element. You could almost feel the self-consciousness in the writers: they know, thanks to brony attention, that that they're being compared to the writers of shows like Korra and Gravity Falls and Steven Universe, and so they're going to want to make it appear that seeds planted way earlier in the show are coming ripe now. They want it to look like Baby Cakes was done intentionally to set up the premise for a big-time season premiere four years later.

Of course we know as well as they do that it's just not possible for that to have been the case, knowing how every season has been a touch-and-go affair, even putting aside the post-Lauren drama (it's funny and a bit uncomfortable to think that there's overwhelmingly more non-Lauren pony now than otherwise) and the effect that it would have had on any potentially planned long-term arcs.

But it seems like Haber wants us to think that's how they're approaching the show now: they want it to look like there's a plan, there was always a plan, no really you guys. Whether we buy it or not. Because (and I'm just kinda spitballing here) I kinda think FiM at its outset kinda kicked a lot of the other, newer shows into gear, spurring them to take writing for kids' cartoons more seriously; and they succeeded so well that now FiM is playing catch-up.

They could have left well enough alone and just kept floundering on with a sort of scattershot universe of half-baked ideas like the crystal empire and cutie marks and alicorn princesses; but evidently they're going to make a game attempt at trying to tie it all together somehow.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:19 am

Also it's fortuitous that I'm hatereading Wheel of Time because I can't help seeing all the magic lazerworks in this episode in the context of channeling and weather control, in fact I think the plot of this episode was basically the same as book 7 :v:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:21 am

Eh, I don't think there's ever been a plan beyond season by season. Even now it seems like they're trying to find some new way to work the new Princess Mandate. There was no reason for her to be an Alicorn, but the suits wanted it, and they tried to fit it into the lore.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:28 am

Well no, obviously not, but it just seems (from this one data point) like they're trying to be more coherent about it than they have been in the past.

Which might be to the detriment of the spontaneous humor of the show. I didn't laugh much this episode. A few good gags aside (Pinkie "keeping an eye" on the baby, who is clinging to her eyeball), a lot of it seemed really tedious. And it felt like part of the reason why was that they were burdening themselves with being more careful than usual.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:33 am

Headless Horse wrote:(it's funny and a bit uncomfortable to think that there's overwhelmingly more non-Lauren pony now than otherwise)

I briefly mentioned this earlier, but it occurred to me that, starting with this season, the show is now essentially run by people who were not working closely with Lauren Faust. Jayson, Meghan, and Larson were all around when Lauren was still in charge, and they're no longer on the show proper; Jayson's too busy with the movie to work on the actual show, Meghan's got promoted by Hasbro to essentially run their girls' media division, and Larson's gone off to do his own thing.

By comparison, Josh Haber, the new story editor, didn't start working on Ponies until season 4.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:34 am

I don't know if there's an active attempt to try to and tie stuff together, but boy was this a continuity heavy story. I'm not sure they've ever done one on this show that has direct links to so many other episodes.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:38 am

In light of how much screentime Starlight got, I'm kind of wondering if they aren't planning on going with a new Mane 7 dynamic after all. It seems unlikely that she's just going to show up for a few Starlight Glimmer specific episodes a season after that, at least.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:38 am

To its credit, I thought Sunburst was a great character—good voice work, good writing, and believable motivations and conflicts. That whole "Not everybody goes on to do great things" thing was some Monsters U. shit right there.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:40 am

Headless Horse wrote:To its credit, I thought Sunburst was a great character—good voice work, good writing, and believable motivations and conflicts. That whole "Not everybody goes on to do great things" thing was some Monsters U. shit right there.


I liked that too, especially the distinction they made between theoretical knowledge and practical ability. It's nice to see that kind of complexity, as opposed to CAN DO MAGIC/CAN NOT DO MAGIC.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:42 am

Headless Horse wrote: I didn't laugh much this episode. A few good gags aside (Pinkie "keeping an eye" on the baby, who is clinging to her eyeball), a lot of it seemed really tedious. And it felt like part of the reason why was that they were burdening themselves with being more careful than usual.


A fair portion of the B plot dealt with dealing with disappointment, which tends away from being a yuk a minute. Gimmer and Sunburst putting up facades for each other was mildly humorous, but in a really awkward way, and there wasn't a real comedy payoff there. By the time they got themselves squared away, the A plot had a tiny baby destroying an empire and the entire cast in survival mode.

I think that they know they can't keep banging on the "Twilight makes checklists and that's funny" drum any more, which is why she and Spike had that little chat at the end. I think there's some rich comedy material in the "Twilight tries to learn how to be Celestia" vein- they might be trying to prospect for that for a while.
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Postby Minty (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 12:51 am

This trend of "you might not always do what you want in life and that's okay" is a refreshing change for kids' cartoons. I'm glad several are going towards that direction. It's better than "work hard and you will absolutely get the thing 1000% guaranteed."
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:10 am

The moral of the story: Babies ruin everything

The episode was fine, but I've always preferred slice of life eps to adventure ones, so I'm excited for the rest of the season :excite:
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:12 am

Octavia wrote:The moral of the story: Babies ruin everything

The episode was fine, but I've always preferred slice of life eps to adventure ones, so I'm excited for the rest of the season :excite:
Pretty much this, yeah.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:13 am

Also, did you guys catch the faded-out second and third options for Starlight's friendship lesson?

We could also go to Griffonstone. Making friends with a griffon is a challenge all by itself! Or we could tag along with the CMC's the next time they try to help a pony figure out why they're special!


That's such fan-bait :gotcha: They want you to know they're agonizing over keeping all their threads together somehow.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:15 am

Octavia wrote:The moral of the story: Babies ruin everything

The episode was fine, but I've always preferred slice of life eps to adventure ones, so I'm excited for the rest of the season :excite:


This story kinda felt like a Slice episode and an Adventure episode jammed together to me. Starlight's stuff with Sunburst felt very Slice, whereas the Crystal Heart/Winter stuff was a bit like the S3 opener over again.
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Postby Brunellus (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:22 am

Headless Horse wrote:One thing that I couldn't help thinking about on a meta level throughout this was how they were drumming on baby magic being a key plot element. You could almost feel the self-consciousness in the writers: they know, thanks to brony attention, that that they're being compared to the writers of shows like Korra and Gravity Falls and Steven Universe, and so they're going to want to make it appear that seeds planted way earlier in the show are coming ripe now. They want it to look like Baby Cakes was done intentionally to set up the premise for a big-time season premiere four years later.

Of course we know as well as they do that it's just not possible for that to have been the case, knowing how every season has been a touch-and-go affair, even putting aside the post-Lauren drama (it's funny and a bit uncomfortable to think that there's overwhelmingly more non-Lauren pony now than otherwise) and the effect that it would have had on any potentially planned long-term arcs.

But it seems like Haber wants us to think that's how they're approaching the show now: they want it to look like there's a plan, there was always a plan, no really you guys. Whether we buy it or not. Because (and I'm just kinda spitballing here) I kinda think FiM at its outset kinda kicked a lot of the other, newer shows into gear, spurring them to take writing for kids' cartoons more seriously; and they succeeded so well that now FiM is playing catch-up.

They could have left well enough alone and just kept floundering on with a sort of scattershot universe of half-baked ideas like the crystal empire and cutie marks and alicorn princesses; but evidently they're going to make a game attempt at trying to tie it all together somehow.


I think we may have noticed some of the same things, but I interpret it as analogous to the filter scene in Apollo 13. "Here's what you have to work with. Make a world."
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:30 am

Yeah, I can go with that.

Haber wants to do right by the world he's been handed, but it's a tall order.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:33 am

Headless Horse wrote:Yeah, I can go with that.

Haber wants to do right by the world he's been handed, but it's a tall order.


I mean, fortunately it doesn't matter so much outside of these big premieres/finales. I doubt we'll get another story this season as continuity-heavy as this opener was.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:35 am

I'll say this again for emphasis, those cute baby noises were on point. Even if they were reused a few times.

I'm surprised no villain showed up. Only baby and bad weather. It's refreshing. Their world threats are becoming more horizontal. More problem solving skills.

I also liked how everyone had a different way to reflect the baby laser.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:37 am

The Doctor wrote:There was no reason for her to be an Alicorn, but the suits wanted it, and they tried to fit it into the lore.

Was this a corporate mandate? Unless there's been any confirmation to that effect, I'm really not so sure here. Unlike with Cadance suddenly appearing at the end of S2 and everyone treating her like it was 100% normal, Flurry Heart being an alicorn was definitely seen as extremely unusual. Sure, this could've been something the toymakers asked for... but given how the show's handling it, does it matter?
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:41 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Was this a corporate mandate? Unless there's been any confirmation to that effect, I'm really not so sure here. Unlike with Cadance suddenly appearing at the end of S2 and everyone treating her like it was 100% normal, Flurry Heart being an alicorn was definitely seen as extremely unusual. Sure, this could've been something the toymakers asked for... but given how the show's handling it, does it matter?


Big Jim in his recent interview with EQG said:

It’s easy to forget that this show primarily exists in order to help market a toy line. So every season, there’s usually a few things that Hasbro Brand asks us to include (previous examples are the helicopter in ‘Testing, Testing, 1, 2, 3, and the upcoming swan boat). There’s an instinct to get caught up in an ‘Aww, man! Really?’ kind of attitude, but over the years, it’s become somewhat of a fun challenge for us to find ways to incorporate these requests in to the series that makes sense in terms of the storytelling. And to be fair, Hasbro Brand has been incredibly gracious and patient with how we do that (think back to how long that helicopter was actually on screen).

So, this new alicorn is no different. I seem to recall that this actually came more from a storytelling opportunity rather than exclusively from Hasbro Brand, but they were excited about the possibility of a new alicorn. As with all of these new character/idea introductions will be what we do with them beyond their initial appearance. Can we continue with these ideas and make them relevant? Make the audience care about this new character? Does this change offer us additional opportunities to tell fun and interesting stories moving forward (which, after 5 seasons can prove to be more difficult than you’d think)? Time (and fan reaction) will tell if it was a good idea.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:42 am

This felt more like a slice episode than an adventure episode, despite the stakes.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:44 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
Big Jim in his recent interview with EQG said:


Sounds to me like Meghan and the gang (should I really keep saying that? Meghan McCarthy isn't too closely involved in the show nowadays, but when it comes to making a character like Flurry Heart, I think she'd have at least a bit of a hand) were the ones who first came up with the idea, then.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:45 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Was this a corporate mandate? Unless there's been any confirmation to that effect, I'm really not so sure here. Unlike with Cadance suddenly appearing at the end of S2 and everyone treating her like it was 100% normal, Flurry Heart being an alicorn was definitely seen as extremely unusual. Sure, this could've been something the toymakers asked for... but given how the show's handling it, does it matter?


This is my take. The reactions it got basically set up big neon lights saying "This is a big plot point!" so I'm not dismissing it as just a crammed in corporate mandate.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:46 am

I'd be interested to know if the character was always an Alicorn, or if, just like Cadance herself, she was an original creation that someone later said "slap some wings onto that unicorn!"

For me, I think it just cheapens the lore to keep altering it every few seasons. Would be like Fellowship of the Rings doing the cool ring speech.

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,

Then coming to The Two Towers and learning there's this tenth ring for Man that Aragorn found.


I understand why it's done, and why it has to be done, but I still think it brings down the work, even with the crew doing their best to work it all in together.
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Postby Sidotsy (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:47 am

Aramek wrote:This felt more like a slice episode than an adventure episode, despite the stakes.

I think it was a good mix of both, though it's hard to do a slice episode with SO MANY characters on the scene. I hope they keep going like this, slice + adventure but with a smaller cast would be really entertaining, like the Friend's Forever series of comics.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:48 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Sounds to me like Meghan and the gang (should I really keep saying that? Meghan McCarthy isn't too closely involved in the show nowadays, but when it comes to making a character like Flurry Heart, I think she'd have at least a bit of a hand) were the ones who first came up with the idea, then.


Bremen wrote:
This is my take. The reactions it got basically set up big neon lights saying "This is a big plot point!" so I'm not dismissing it as just a crammed in corporate mandate.


That's where I'm at too. Additionally, we don't know what they've got planned for the rest of the season yet (specifically the finale, going by the usual trend), so we're yet to find out if Flurry being an Alicorn has any particular significance outside of the premiere.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:49 am

This was nice and cute :allears: And to be honest, it's totally what this show needed after the mess that was last season's finale :v:

I was already sold on Starlight anyway, but this episode confirmed it. I hope she'll show up more, not just in the occasional story-heavy episode. She's kinda like awkward s1 Twilight in a way, and that's cool.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:51 am

The Doctor wrote:I'd be interested to know if the character was always an Alicorn, or if, just like Cadance herself, she was an original creation that someone later said "slap some wings onto that unicorn!"

(...)

I understand why it's done, and why it has to be done, but I still think it brings down the work, even with the crew doing their best to work it all in together.


It's a new development, though?

I honestly think this having a baby was a Hasbro mandate, and it seemed like a boring premise so they played with that idea and tried to make it interesting. Hence, baby alicorn (which they haven't explained yet, but they probably will) and a Big Stakes but still slice of life episode.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:55 am

Sidotsy wrote:I think it was a good mix of both, though it's hard to do a slice episode with SO MANY characters on the scene. I hope they keep going like this, slice + adventure but with a smaller cast would be really entertaining, like the Friend's Forever series of comics.


Credit to Josh for handling so many characters so well. That's been my biggest gripe about many of the two parters (really all except the S5 opening) is that the other character play little to no role in them. It's Twilight's story. This one had good moments by most of the Mane 6 (admittedly, Fluttershy and Rarity didn't get to do much). Cadance and Twilight have their moment, going to search the Library, working together (something that should have been done in The Crystal Empire). Celestia and Luna are buying them all time, rather than just being taken out of the action immediately like in Meghan's episodes. And he wrote in a fun side plot with Starlight and Sunburst that ended up tying in directly with the the other plot regarding the baby and the weather.

This episode just manages to balance everything really, really well. I'd rank this as the best two parter since Return of Harmony.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:56 am

The Doctor wrote:I'd be interested to know if the character was always an Alicorn, or if, just like Cadance herself, she was an original creation that someone later said "slap some wings onto that unicorn!"

For me, I think it just cheapens the lore to keep altering it every few seasons. Would be like Fellowship of the Rings doing the cool ring speech.

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,

Then coming to The Two Towers and learning there's this tenth ring for Man that Aragorn found.

I understand why it's done, and why it has to be done, but I still think it brings down the work, even with the crew doing their best to work it all in together.


I absolutely understand the feeling, but I think it actually kinda fits with the way things have been going on the show for a while. The days of two Princesses running everything seems to be coming to an end, first with Cadance, then with Twilight and now with the revelation that naturally-born Alicorns from uplifted Alicorn parents is a thing.

I think it helps to think of it as times changing in Equestria more than the lore of the show changing (however accurate that statement might be).
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 1:58 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
I absolutely understand the feeling, but I think it actually kinda fits with the way things have been going on the show for a while. The days of two Princesses running everything seems to be coming to an end, first with Cadance, then with Twilight and now with the revelation that naturally-born Alicorns from uplifted Alicorn parents is a thing.

I think it helps to think of it as times changing in Equestria more than the lore of the show changing (however accurate that statement might be).


I don't know that I buy that. Twilight being the one saving the day has never really come off as "the times are changing" to me. It's come off just as "we have no clue what to do with these other alicorns during these episodes"
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:00 am

The Doctor wrote:
I don't know that I buy that. Twilight being the one saving the day has never really come off as "the times are changing" to me. It's come off just as "we have no clue what to do with these other alicorns during these episodes"


Oh, I wasn't really talking about who is actually doing what. I just meant that Celestia and Luna choosing to uplift Unicorns to join them as leaders signals a significant change in policy from what they'd been doing for the few thousand years prior.
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Postby DaBatGuy (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:10 am

A good pair of episodes, though not my favorite of the 2 parters it's probably the most consistent in quality. Aside from the repetitive and direct exposition which I've accepted as a consequence of writing for a younger audience I can't think of any glaring flaws. However their aren't any elements that really impressed me like Discord, "This Day Aria", or The Tirek fight did for their respective episodes.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:12 am

Wasn't Cadance a pegasus before she became an alicorn? :ponder: I'm pretty sure that was in one of the books.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Mar 27, 2016 2:13 am

Headless Horse wrote:They could have left well enough alone and just kept floundering on with a sort of scattershot universe of half-baked ideas like the crystal empire and cutie marks and alicorn princesses; but evidently they're going to make a game attempt at trying to tie it all together somehow.

I was wondering the same thing. Haber hasn't written enough episodes yet to really pin down his philosophy, but he did write the last season finale, which was a big, serious, complicated, reference-filled episode. He also wrote Applebloom's nightmare episode. Maybe he's approaching it as a writer reading through the show bible and trying to piece together something consistent.

On one hand, I enjoy shows that feels like they've at least thought through the basic questions their world raises, even if they don't come out and tell us. Like, what's the deal with the Tree of Harmony sprouting jewelry and castles and stuff?

But on the other hand, this has never really been a serious show about fighting evil, and I hope they can stay lighthearted through this season and leading into the movie.
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