S05E17: Brotherhooves Social

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Re: S05E17: Brotherhooves Social

Postby theGECK (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:25 pm

Wait, this isn't something that was common? I saw it randomly talked about somewhere in my first week of officially joining the My Little Pony fandom so I figured it was something that had just been out there! So, I'll have to find it again.

###TIME PASSES###

:gonkity: I'm searching for it but I can't find it again! So, it was very thin "evidence", but it was one of those things where you went "Huh. Yeah, that could be interesting if it was true," and then from that point on I just thought it added an interesting and fun dimension to Rarity's character that I didn't think would ever be canon but was fun to think about.

Um...let me see if I can remember some of the points that were made?
    -Rarity wears false eyelashes - MMMMystery episode
    -Rarity puts a huge emphasis on correctly gendered expression, something that trans people frequently do?
    -Rarity does beauty treatments that aren't normal for the other Mane6? Oh, I found this one again - she gets her horn filed down, and I guess that in the animation the colt's horns are longer than mare horns? So since we don't see the others get their horn filed down, it suggests that she's intentionally making her horn look a specific way.
    -Rarity has more physical strength than we see from other unicorns.
    -Rarity's voice changes in pitch more than the other ponies, suggesting she had to train it to be at that pitch.

The only thing I really could find was this post and this TVTropes page.

So yeah, like I said up there - nothing that actually says "Rarity is transgender", but just a fun thing to add to a character's headcanon that colours her interactions with the others and never actually matters to the story. And honestly, if there was a transgender character in MLP, that's how I would hope it would be handled.

PROTIP: "My Little Pony Transgender Rarity" is something that I probably shouldn't have searched while I was at work.
But at least I got to hear MLP in a different language on YouTube! I have no idea why this got in the search results, but I'm not complaining. I think it's Norwegian?
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Postby Juniper Phoenix (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:24 pm

That's new to me. :starity:

I mean yeah, no way that would ever be the case, but still, that's a...fascinating interpretation. Holy shit. :flutterdear:
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:43 pm

I *MIGHT*'ve heard it mentioned once before, maybe, but I wouldn't say it's common - Considering I'm not even sure I have. :P But interesting. Never noticed that about horns. The one thing about that MLPForums post that made me facepalm was the thing about the supposed "sexy" pic of AJ, though. I know what comic that's referring to, and I don't remember the pic being "sexy". The colorist made a post here on these forums saying she was pretty sure the (perfectly normal) AJ pic was only there because AJ's Andy Price's favorite pony, too (something Price later confirmed).
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:30 pm

Crimson Foxtail wrote:
"Intent matters" and "don't lash out at creators" are nice thoughts in a vacuum, and obviously attacking the creators is bad, but at the same time, "intent" does not change the fact that many trans people who thought MLP was a safe space for them found this episode painful, and focusing only on the 'aggressive internet fans' part kinda trivializes that. It's not fun to see things that torment you in real life be excused as simply cheap gags, no matter the intent.


To be fair on myself, the only reason I was talking about those particular fans was that they were the ones specifically mentioned in this thread.

Regarding trans people who were upset by this episode, I'm sorry it had that effect on them. I think the best thing that could come out of this would be if a few people calmly tweeted someone like Meghan McCarthy (as opposed to a staff member with no direct involvement in writing) with their feelings on the matter. If she hadn't considered the possibility of hurting the trans community when this episode was approved, perhaps she might when approving future episodes.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:32 am

All right, I finally got to watch this episode. :pinkietoot:


First off: While having Big Mac pretend to be a mare was dumb, this episode definitely handled it a lot better than I had feared from the preview alone. As pointed out at the end of the race, Big Mac's gender was never a problem in the first place, and none of the events strictly required each team to be a team of two female ponies. Likewise, all of his competitive transgressions came from a desire to win, not a desire to keep up his guise. (This even ended up being a surprise to me, since for a while I felt like his use of force was largely an example of the show being cartoony, not an actual plot point.) Overall, while it would've been best if this episode hadn't bothered with that joke in the first place, I still think this show did it quite a bit better than cartoons of yesteryear have.

Aside from that, I loved this episode for finally getting to show a true emotional part of Big Mac. In the past, most stuff we've had him in has either had him strictly be the straight man (thinking mainly of the issues of the comics where he's starred, also Filli Vanilli a bit) or has had him been uncharacteristically goofy for comedic purposes (H&HD). I doubt the show has too much more time on the air, but maybe S6 or the comics can give us a bit more of this side of him.
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Postby Mir (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:33 am

Honestly, yeah... the whole episode made me super uncomfortable. :fluttersmith:

That's really all I have to say on the matter.
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:11 am

Y'know, some of the things in this episode did skirt close to issues close to home. And I say this as someone who (trig: transphobia) went to a dinner-and-show place while presenting only to be confronted by the host going 'you're freaking me out man' over and over, and during the show a 'free-balling' act was performed. Not... not fun.

But... I appreciate the episode. Big Mac never winked to the camera; when he was being Dame Macna Everage he was Dame Macna Everage, and everybody else accepted that. RD took issue, and in the response what she was doing was equated with what Big Mac's doing - a complete nothing. Nobody blinked at RD, nobody blinked at Big Mac. I appreciate that they built off of Big Mac instead of pulling out a burner like for Discord's episode. I appreciate that they opted to address a difficult issue instead of just erasing it. I appreciate that they put in the effort to paint the pony world's handling of the issue in a way that is neither harshly close to home nor unrealistically saccharine. Instead it paints a portrait of a world where yes, breaking gender norms can be a little tricky (friends and family tend to have trouble most of all) but things are okay and what you're doing is fine. It's a reachable ideal, it's the tomorrow the children of today can, and hopefully will, build.

I gotta lot of thoughts on this episode but rambling more isn't going to do any good. So I guess my thought here is: The big line for the show is that there are many ways to be a girl. And this episode closed the deal - Big Mac became, for an episode, a girl, and the show showed that what he's doing is no less valid a way to be a girl than any of the other main characters.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:28 pm

Didn't like this episode, felt it was not only made of a trite and drawn out cliche but also just plainly tonedeaf as hell. I'll just go ahead and copypaste what I said before:

The issue is that this very cliche can be offensive and while lucky people like you and me are not affected since we don't have the legitimate worry of just being seen as "that man in the dress", transpeople don't have that luxury, and I don't blame any of them for saying "yo, these jokes are old and shitty, I'd like to have more representation for people like me that doesn't boil down to 'look at the man in the dress'"


I'm glad there are transpeople who felt this episode was relatable and not insulting. It just doesn't magically make it an amazing portrayal. I really hope we can move away from the whole "the man in the dress is the joke" thing entirely, even if it's handled better than it could have been. To me at least, it's outdated and tired and something I hope media can move past sometime.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:34 pm

One other thought I had is that this was one of the most "real"-feeling episodes I've ever seen, referring to the way Apple Bloom treated Applejack and Big Mac throughout the entire episode. I don't know, maybe I don't have the best frame of reference (I am an only child, after all), but that just seemed so much like what a kid would do with her grown-up siblings that I found it rather heartwarming.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:22 pm

I'm curious to know what would be a proper portrayal of transpeople? What representation would be most encouraging for them? If we can come to a better understanding of the issue then we can work to avoid offending anyone in the future.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:32 pm

Really, the best way is to have a trans person who is treated the same as anyone else. I imagine that if it happened in pony society, it's something that would just be considered an everyday part of life and nobody would bat an eye at it. Pony society seems to be a lot more progressive than our own. Heck, unless they actually called attention to it, we may not even know the character is trans at all. The only other way would be to have a story about a pony going through the transition, but in a children's show, that's just not going to happen.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:02 pm

Soft Snow wrote:I'm curious to know what would be a proper portrayal of transpeople? What representation would be most encouraging for them? If we can come to a better understanding of the issue then we can work to avoid offending anyone in the future.


Well, for starters, writers should be invested in doing their research and actually talking to transpeople to learn, or at the very least look into reputable documentaries and articles. I'm not a fan of the idea that writers should only write what they know - That's not how curiosity and creativity are nurturted. However, research is invaluable and definitely not optional.

As a non-trans person, I'm no authority on this subject, but I feel that a big factor is the amount of respect and power involved. Generally, when a joke is made at someone's expense, that someone is the weak party in the situation. Humour is disarming and can often be used to cope with fears or insecurity - We laugh about people we don't like, people we are afraid of, things that we feel powerless against, etc. Obviously, the issue isn't that humour is inherently humiliating, but rather that humour is a powerful tool to validate or invalidate an experience. Tone and delivery really matter here. Gender issues and humour are not mutually exclusive and never should be, but when your tone invalidates/depowers a trans person, that's not inclusive, that's shitty. The line between a friendly ribbing and a tasteless joke is fuzzy and not set in stone, but that's again all the more reason to talk to people and ask them what's shitty and what isn't.

A lot of time, jokes about transpeople come from places of insecurity or ignorance - When your perspective is strictly "men are men and women are women" and you don't see any reason to change that, someone you perceive to be a man in a dress is funny. It's weird and different and makes no sense because why would a man do that, right? Dresses are for women, after all. And the thing is, humour like that normalizes that kinda thinking - It's a selfperpetuating thing. It's easy to think that when a cartoon or a comedian or a show you like portrays "the man in a dress" as silly and nothing to take seriously, that's really all it is. At worst, a joke like that is incredibly dehumanizing, and turns a person with a legitimate identity and life into a cliche. What should be normalized is the acceptance for those identities, not the acceptance of the cliche.

What I (again, as someone who's not an authority, so take it with a grain of salt) felt was a positive spin of the "man in a dress" cliche was a bit in Steven Universe. The titular character spends the whole episode encouraging a friend Sadie to go on stage and sing, wear flashy dresses, bathe in glitter, etc., but it turns out Steven was just trying to live vicariously through his friend who wasn't even comfortable being on stage. Steven ends up going on stage himself, flashy skirt and glitter and all, and totally rocks the song performance. The situation could have just been the same garbage jokes as in other media, but a few key points make it different - The crowd cheers for Steven; he's not wearing a goofily unfortunate or bad looking outfit, it looks good and appealing; no silly sound effects, over the top "man voice" or other audio cues to paint the situation as a joke; no shocked reactions a la "say whaaaa, he's wearing a skirt?!". Steven is not dehumanized, and he's not turned into the target of the situation. The audience laughs, but not about him, but rather with him, since the situation is portrayed as a fun and endearing moment where Steven gets to fulfill his desire to sing. He's empowered, not humiliated.

Humour is a very powerful tool in social interaction and something that changes and evolves all the time. It has a profound effect on our feelings on things - It can make scary things easier to bear, break ice with strangers, and be a means to bond. But, by the same token, it can also easily alienate and dehumanize. Representation for transpeople is slowly improving, but it's still a tough and often shitty world out there for them, and when the majority of representation still boils down to "look at the man in the dress!", we still got a long way to go. It's like kicking someone who's on the ground and trying to get up - A single shitty joke won't break them, but every single shitty joke contributes to an enviroment that does. Writing about issues of gender involving people rather than cliches would be a start to do better.
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Postby Cthulhu Inc (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:53 pm

Master_Twig wrote:Really, the best way is to have a trans person who is treated the same as anyone else. I imagine that if it happened in pony society, it's something that would just be considered an everyday part of life and nobody would bat an eye at it. Pony society seems to be a lot more progressive than our own. Heck, unless they actually called attention to it, we may not even know the character is trans at all. The only other way would be to have a story about a pony going through the transition, but in a children's show, that's just not going to happen.

I wonder if magic would go a long way to solving the physical part of the problem :ponder:
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:18 pm

Cthulhu Inc wrote:I wonder if magic would go a long way to solving the physical part of the problem :ponder:


Maybe, but in Magic Duel it actually comes up that not even the amulet could turn a mare into a stallion or vice versa.
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Postby Momo (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:56 pm

I just watched this episode and the only impression I'm feeling is that while you can explain away and intellectualize the show's subtext all you like, I don't trust kids to make that distinction. Children's TV should lead by example, and the example this show set is that if someone you care about suddenly shows up dressed as the opposite gender, you should feel embarrassed, and they're going to humiliate you. I don't find the show's portrayals offensive so much as utterly tone-deaf and ignorant. What I do find offensive is that my friends' kids are going to see this episode and think this sort of ignorance is okay.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:50 pm

I'm wholly in the 'totally okay with this' side. Yes, it could have been cringe-worthy regarding the disguise.

And yes, there was cringe. But it was never 'Big Mac is crossdressing' as the source of it, it was 'My older sibling is doing something super over the top, nobody is going to buy this, and I'm afraid of being made fun of' which is like...a legit fear. Kids are pretty darn smart (But also vicious little animals) and to me this is gonna go a ways towards just normalizing it; the 'We didn't care about the clothes' message is hammered home hard at the end.

I appreciate that it makes some people varying degrees of uncomfortable, but...that's going to happen with almost anything that's pushing boundaries. And yea, this tried to push boundaries a bit, but I'd rather laud that then not. It's not perfect, sure. There's almost nothing that is perfect. But it was real and that matters far more to me.
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:58 pm

Perrydotto wrote:What I (again, as someone who's not an authority, so take it with a grain of salt) felt was a positive spin of the "man in a dress" cliche was a bit in Steven Universe. The titular character spends the whole episode encouraging a friend Sadie to go on stage and sing, wear flashy dresses, bathe in glitter, etc., but it turns out Steven was just trying to live vicariously through his friend who wasn't even comfortable being on stage. Steven ends up going on stage himself, flashy skirt and glitter and all, and totally rocks the song performance. The situation could have just been the same garbage jokes as in other media, but a few key points make it different - The crowd cheers for Steven; he's not wearing a goofily unfortunate or bad looking outfit, it looks good and appealing; no silly sound effects, over the top "man voice" or other audio cues to paint the situation as a joke; no shocked reactions a la "say whaaaa, he's wearing a skirt?!". Steven is not dehumanized, and he's not turned into the target of the situation. The audience laughs, but not about him, but rather with him, since the situation is portrayed as a fun and endearing moment where Steven gets to fulfill his desire to sing. He's empowered, not humiliated.


Now I'd like to take issue with this one. Steven Universe has improved on Pony in a lot of ways, but I think this is a matchup where Pony definitely wins.

Steven is fundamentally weird. He's wonderful because of it, but the whole point of his character is that he's weird. Unprecedented. Everyone in town knows him as the weird kid, and love him for being sincerely weird. But that's not the same as empowering, or normalising. He is empowered, but by the fact that he exists outside the rules.

Big Macintosh is, however, normal. Of all the characters in the show, he is perhaps the most normal. Might it have gone down smoother if he had not been a participant in the jokes? Certainly. It's not perfect. I cringed. A lot. But most important is that for all the personal drama over him going as Dame Macna Everage to the Sisterhooves Social, he's treated as normal. What he did for Apple Bloom was portrayed as a wholesome thing, a mark that he's a Good Sibling. This was A Correct Way To Be A Girl, and outside of AB and RD having teething pains over the idea, the episode backs that up.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:58 pm

Pingcode wrote:Might it have gone down smoother if he had not been a participant in the jokes? Certainly. It's not perfect. I cringed. A lot.

One point I noticed even in other sites' discussion is that this was definitely a cringey episode no matter how you viewed the dressing up.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Tue Oct 06, 2015 8:05 am

Pingcode wrote:
Now I'd like to take issue with this one. Steven Universe has improved on Pony in a lot of ways, but I think this is a matchup where Pony definitely wins.

Steven is fundamentally weird. He's wonderful because of it, but the whole point of his character is that he's weird. Unprecedented. Everyone in town knows him as the weird kid, and love him for being sincerely weird. But that's not the same as empowering, or normalising. He is empowered, but by the fact that he exists outside the rules.

Big Macintosh is, however, normal. Of all the characters in the show, he is perhaps the most normal. Might it have gone down smoother if he had not been a participant in the jokes? Certainly. It's not perfect. I cringed. A lot. But most important is that for all the personal drama over him going as Dame Macna Everage to the Sisterhooves Social, he's treated as normal. What he did for Apple Bloom was portrayed as a wholesome thing, a mark that he's a Good Sibling. This was A Correct Way To Be A Girl, and outside of AB and RD having teething pains over the idea, the episode backs that up.


Fair enough, that's certainly a valid way to see it. As said, I'm no authority on this. I just feel like the way the episode portrayed Big Mac as anything but normal - He looked goofy, acted goofy, it was all around silly. To me, it felt clearly like the audience was not supposed to find this normal. We were supposed to see Big Mac as odd and silly, not as a wholesome part of the crowd. In my opinion, the (genuinely sweet!) ending doesn't undo that.

At the end of the day, I think my biggest issue is that you could switch out the "man in a dress" plot for any other "big brother tries to impress younger sibling and ends up being embarassing instead" plot and not lose anything. Does anyone here think the episode would have lost anything? Genuine question, I'm curious. Personally, I feel the episode didn't gain anything from trotting out that particular cliche, and even ended up detracting quite a lot from its potential. Make Big Mac try to put on his own "Brotherhooves" Social and have it be over the top and trying too hard to appeal to Applebloom. Make Big Mac join Applebloom in all her activities with friends and have him try too hard to be cool and fit in. You know, that kinda thing. Would have been funny and endearing and gotten the point across just fine, and not added to the pile of media going all "those men in dresses are silly!".
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:43 am

I do think Big Mac's participation in the actual Sisterhooves Social was important since it showed how badly he wanted to win it for his youngest sister, so having him put on some other wacky event wouldn't be the same. As such, in that regard I can see why having him try to pretend to be someone else seemed like an appealing option for this episode, since the overall moral was that your gender doesn't matter so much as your bond with other loved ones and also your personal conduct. Where it erred was in having as many jokes as there were about a man pretending to be a woman, since those are old and stale at this point.

This is another one of those episodes where I'd most like to hear from the children in the show's target audience. I feel like the episode clearly stated its moral when Big Mac was disqualified, so I doubt there were many kids left thinking that transgender people deserve to be mocked, but maybe some of the youngest watchers thought that.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:41 pm

But...I mean, from a certain perspective, which were the 'jokes'? There were jokes about yea, it's awkward cause everyone knows this and knows he's just doing it to enter the contest for AB's sake, but...

Responding to Perry's point : I don't think there's any vehicle that would have been as effective in conveying this. Creating a 'Brotherhooves' or something similar wouldn't lack the same awkward 'Oh dear me no' as 'My older sibling is being a complete doofus and is gonna embarrass me'.

The other part is - yea. Guy in dress is old hat usually done badly. But...just because it's been done badly isn't cause to write it off as 'You can never use this again'; a lot of the dislike I see here seems less about Pony's specific presentation and more about the fact there's so much baggage with the trope that they don't want to see it invoked anywhere.

And on some level yea, I get that; on the other, though, baggage will always accumulate, and if the response past a certain level is 'This is now too tainted to use, ever', you're going to slowly but consistently limit what you can and cannot express. To a certain extent we see that with language now; we can chart a whole heap of words that originally were just descriptive, became seem as derogatory, and now are varying degrees of toxic. Some, sure, I'll readily concede the stain is so great at this time one shouldn't use it, but others - it really seems like it's a matter of 'Okay, when does the current word become too tainted to use?'.

As relates to this, if you assume the trend is only one way, then its irrevocable; pony here I think did great strides towards handling it the way it should be handled, and if more shows were to do it the same way then such tropes could be brought back from the abyss and added to the lexicon of 'Okay, we can use this, and it doesn't matter'.

Portlandia, as an example, has the two main actors constantly portraying the opposite gender; there's never really any reason for it, other than 'Just because' and it adds another layer of weirdness to a show that revels in being weird. I could see how one might see that as offensive, yet - well, 'We shouldn't do this, period' is something I'm exceptionally leery to leverage.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:09 pm

I don't mean to trivialize anyone's feelings if they were hurt by this but I didn't find it offensive. The main factor for me was that most of the adults knew he was wearing a dress but didn't seem to care. As best as I can recall none of them questioned him, gave a gasp of shock, a dismissive sigh nor even a raised eyebrow at the thought of him wearing a dress. It was perfectly fine with them. That is kind of where I want us as a society to be at.

The kids were shocked but then again they are kids and probably to inexperienced to grasp the situation. This was probably the first time they seen him dressed like this. When my little sister first saw a Christmas tree she too was shocked at it because she thought trees belonged outside and not in a houses. Dash was only opposed to it because she thought it was cheating rather then her being opposed to him in a dress.

His clumsiness also made sense to me. While he fit the dress and part very well, he wasn't use to doing those kinds of physical activities in those clothes. In a normal situation he probably wouldn't have scarfed down those pies as quickly in a dress.

The singing part is more of a grey area for me. I would like to imagine he was just a bad singer that fell out of character during the performance. Then again he was shown to be good at singing during his part in the Pony Tones. But then again even some good singers have trouble singing while doing different voices. I think the whole part was to show that they thought they were fooling the audience when in reality they weren't.

The biggest part we are missing about this is that in pony society clothes are optional, not required. We really have very little perspective on how ponies view wearing or not wearing clothes in public. Ponies love wearing dresses but only during special events. Big Mac wasn't so much out of place wearing a dress but rather wearing a dress at this event. Many him wearing a dress wasn't seen any different then him wearing any other piece of clothing. Seeing how going naked causes just as much concern as wearing a dress does.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Oct 06, 2015 11:35 pm

Dexanth wrote:But...I mean, from a certain perspective, which were the 'jokes'? There were jokes about yea, it's awkward cause everyone knows this and knows he's just doing it to enter the contest for AB's sake, but...

I think the one that was on the nose in this regard was at the end of their song, with Big Mac dropping to his normal voice for the big finish. Even then, it might not have been so bad if the animation hadn't pointed out his Adam's apple (do male horses even have prominent Adam's apples?), but that was the only one that I majorly remember as having been a joke about him very obviously being a stallion in feminine clothing.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:23 am

I think we're all putting different amounts of importance on the audience here. I see a lot of arguments being made that in the context of the show's setting and the characters, the portrayal wasn't so problematic. I just can't take that point at face value, because the audience isn't composed of ponies, or even people who all very consistently watch this show. The dress thing isn't some clever play on the characters that requires intense knowledge of the show. I still maintain that it's a trite cliche that was not used well here and that a lot of people in the audience are going to see it as just that, not as an endearing character plot. Again, I gotta ask - If the plot was really all about the underlying emotional conflict rather than "lol man in dress", why was that cliche plot necessary in the first place? Why not have Big Mac act more like Applejack, trying to mimick what Big Mac thinks Applebloom wants in a sibling? Why did it have to be a weird and offputting caricature rather than something actually properly related to the issue at hand?
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:16 am

If the plot was really all about the underlying emotional conflict rather than "lol man in dress", why was that cliche plot necessary in the first place? Why not have Big Mac act more like Applejack, trying to mimick what Big Mac thinks Applebloom wants in a sibling? Why did it have to be a weird and offputting caricature rather than something actually properly related to the issue at hand?


- Because it was a fast way to introduce 'Here is a situation AB is uncomfortable with, which makes sense in-context, and as the show only has 22 minutes spending a bunch of time setting something else up is probably not viable'. Big Mac pretending to be someone else is instantly recognizable to anyone watching as 'Ok, he's trying to compete in this thing that everyone thinks only girls can compete in'.
- And do what, here? He's dressing fancy and frou-frou to create contrast, and also because it helps conceal him 'better', at least in his eyes. Following off of it, what would this be, again? Now it seems you're creating an entirely new plotline that doesn't use the Social at all.
- 'Weird and offputting' is relative, but I think the case here is twofold. One, he has to go to extremes because he's trying to conceal himself, and the clothing conceals Cutie Mark, the wig has hair, and so forth; being a country-Apple would make it more obvious who he was, in his mind. And, two, the whole point is that in his mind, this is a way to give AB what she wants - to compete in the social. He doesn't see a way /other/ than this to compete.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:29 am

I would like to hear possible alternatives that would capture the same effect. Like what else could Big Mac have done to be more like Applejack to Apple Bloom? I'm not very creative in rethinking stories like this.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:38 am

They set up in the opening that AJ and Apple Bloom had been practicing. Any mistakes by Big Mac didn't have to be because "LOL! Guy in Dress!", but could have been easily explained by him not practicing the routine with her.

Also, while it would have been a little heavy handed in the gender reversal story, they could have had Apple Blooms reservations be because she's the only pony competing with her Brother, while everyone else has a sister.
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:28 am

Perrydotto wrote:I think we're all putting different amounts of importance on the audience here. I see a lot of arguments being made that in the context of the show's setting and the characters, the portrayal wasn't so problematic. I just can't take that point at face value, because the audience isn't composed of ponies, or even people who all very consistently watch this show. The dress thing isn't some clever play on the characters that requires intense knowledge of the show. I still maintain that it's a trite cliche that was not used well here and that a lot of people in the audience are going to see it as just that, not as an endearing character plot.


What I argue is that the portrayal is a positive step worth recognising in the context of the state of media. It's flawed, but comparing to transfolk portrayals in other media it's one of the better ones and that's worth recognising. Contrast the Bioware approach, which is positive but harmful as portrayals go because they invoke near cosmic punishment on anyone who dares be transphobic.

For the cliche... Well, here's a thought experiment. Imagine Big Mac is outright going to the social while presenting. Imagine if in that offscreen introduction, he said something like "Let me have this, Apple Bloom," and she agreed but was uncomfortable with the idea because okay let's be fair this is tricky for real life close friends and family.

Making this assumption recasts the episode into one of discomfort with a transgendered relative. Fear of judgement by others. Actual judgement by others. Inevitable mistakes. But finally, acceptance, as Apple Bloom signals that she recognises 'Cousin Orchard Blossom' as her sibling, inviting Big Mac to take on her persona once more.

Does it bear out in the context of the greater show? Maybe, maybe not. You could argue a case, they'd never get away with doing it even more openly than they've done here on mainstream TV, but I credit them for what they seemed to be trying to achieve.

Again, I gotta ask - If the plot was really all about the underlying emotional conflict rather than "lol man in dress", why was that cliche plot necessary in the first place? Why not have Big Mac act more like Applejack, trying to mimick what Big Mac thinks Applebloom wants in a sibling? Why did it have to be a weird and offputting caricature rather than something actually properly related to the issue at hand?


The plot was all about the underlying emotional conflict, the episode was all about Big Mac going out in a dress. Better that they tried to address a difficult topic than not try at all. Knowing the episode exists and given the chance to erase it and start anew, I would not ask that they do it differently - there may be mistakes made, but I consider falliable, experimental attempts far preferable to the alternative of transfolk* being erased entirely from MLP.

*Inclusive of transvestism, in this case. I doubt the show will ever be so mad as to explicitly draw a distinction on a primetime show.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:15 am

The Doctor wrote:They set up in the opening that AJ and Apple Bloom had been practicing. Any mistakes by Big Mac didn't have to be because "LOL! Guy in Dress!", but could have been easily explained by him not practicing the routine with her.

Also, while it would have been a little heavy handed in the gender reversal story, they could have had Apple Blooms reservations be because she's the only pony competing with her Brother, while everyone else has a sister.


I think that's entirely what AB's reservations were about- maybe not that she was the only one competing with her brother, but that she wasn't competing with Applejack, which was what she was looking forward to so much. Add to that Big Mac's feelings that he's losing touch with his sister, and her -knowing- that and having to accommodate him, and there's a pretty big emotional load there even before Big Mac put the dress on.

There's a scene that happens off-camera where Big Mac explains his plans to AB that practically writes itself- Big Mac thinking he's found a way to do the best favor ever for his little sister, Apple Bloom reacts badly, Big Mac reacts badly to that, Granny Smith plays referee and tells her that yes, Big Mac can actually do what he's planning and "Gol-durn it, young-un, yer gonna go compete with yer big brother!" You can see the results of that off-screen conversation in how Apple Bloom shows up to the Social looking like she wants to crawl into the nearest crack in the sidewalk and hide.

I've been watching the debate here for the past couple of days, and I'm proud of everyone here for keeping things civil. I'm not even sure I'm qualified to speak on the whole "is it offensive or not?" question, because I'm just this guy, you know? I don't live these issues like some here do. But I give the show credit - after watching the preview clip, I was worried it was going to go way off the rails. But then it didn't, really. Nobody made fun of Big Mac, nobody (save the comic relief old man) was even fooled- not even Sweetie Belle, and Big Mac's scheme unraveled not because his disguise failed, but because he was too competitive and basically destroyed the last half of the course.

This show has shown time and again that it can find a new angle on a well-worn cartoon cliche, and I think they did it again. It wasn't my favorite episode ever, but I think it succeeded in what it was trying to do.
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Postby Marimo (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:09 am

Perrydotto wrote:Does anyone here think the episode would have lost anything? Genuine question, I'm curious. Personally, I feel the episode didn't gain anything from trotting out that particular cliche, and even ended up detracting quite a lot from its potential. Make Big Mac try to put on his own "Brotherhooves" Social and have it be over the top and trying too hard to appeal to Applebloom. Make Big Mac join Applebloom in all her activities with friends and have him try too hard to be cool and fit in. You know, that kinda thing. Would have been funny and endearing and gotten the point across just fine, and not added to the pile of media going all "those men in dresses are silly!".

I think him dressing up was symbolic of how he was hiding how he was really feeling. He tried not addressing what he was feeling to Apple Bloom, and so he tried not to make it about him and used a new persona to fill Applejack's shoes. And that kind of fits the second thing, he feels insignificant compared to Applejack. He tried to use that old toy trick in the beginning, and Apple Bloom didn't really notice and only focused on how great Applejack was. So he goes pretending to be a woman in order to be closer to what Applejack is, a sister or at least a female relation like what Applejack is, rather than make it about what he is, a brother. That's kind of why I don't think your Brotherhooves Social would work, Apple Bloom wanted to win the Sisterhooves Social, so he was going to give her that victory for the SS just like Applejack would've done, and he wasn't going to make up some Brotherhooves Social as a cheap imitation (there's no way he would have been able to set something up in time to compete with the SS without it being embarassing anyway), nor would he want something that definitely puts more spotlight on him doing this because he wants her adoration. And I don't see him trying too hard to be "cool" as himself as something that would work either. Big Mac's a naturally shy guy, which is why I think a disguise like Orchard Blossom is necessary for him to be more vocal and act out like how he did during the rest of the episode.
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Postby DaBatGuy (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:38 am

This was an... interesting episode to say the least, personally I enjoyed it for the most part because of how Big Mac's actions were framed. To me the jokes weren't based on his gender but the flashy attire, contrary personality, and his inexperience in keeping up a disguise. The competition was mostly based on physical and athletic events that weren't judged by how stereo-typically "feminine" the competitors were. None of the other mares wore outfits as gaudy as Orchard Blossom's, if anything, and we know Big Mac is good at physical activities. He failed at most of the activities because the clothes were impractical for the events regardless of gender. Had he simply wore a wig and covered his cutie mark he could have competed much better. Also I never saw Orchard Blossom as anything other than a disguise, not an act of self-expression, or transitioning to a new identity which definitely would have been more problematic. The protagonists of the show have always been characterized as too honest and inexperienced at lying to deceive anyone so I felt Big mac would be no exception. It was also really humorous to to have the most mellow and quiet character suddenly be more expressive and talkative than he was while under the influence of a mind altering love potion.

Ultimately, the Orchard Blossom disguise might have been necessary to justify his reckless actions in the last event without radically changing the events or breaking continuity. All of his failures in the episode need to be his own fault to give the last scene the emotional impact it had. If it was suddenly the "Siblings"-hooves Social this year there would have been no conflict with Big Mac competing as himself. Then the only way to explain him failing enough to become desperate at the last event would be to -
a. completely change the events from the previous years to things he's inexperienced with.
b. have a Spike at Your Service level of ignoring skills displayed in previous episodes.
Once the judges revealed that their definition of sister was purposely vague I though that some of the other mares competing would revel that they were stallions also (although that would just raise more questions on why the event is "gender" specific at all. Is their even an actual Brotherhooves Social where Thunderlane and Rumble compete?)

I'm not trying to defend all of this episode, I do realize that the depiction is flawed and that my interpretation of the episode probably is too. As a straight male I don't feel I have the knowledge or experience to properly comment on the gender representation issues here.

I torn about how to feel about this episode, there's so much that it does great. I think this is the first episode outside of a season premier/finale that has characters acknowledge the fact that the mane 6 have literally saved the world at least half a dozen times now and deserve some degree of adulation and respect for their accomplishments. Also seeing how the girls' status as pseudo-superheroes affected their usual lives is something I've wanted show to explore for years, as well as an episode that further explored Big Mac as a character and his relationship with AppleBloom. That last scene was gorgeous, definitely the most emotional and adorable moment since the conclusion of Sleepless in Ponyville. Speaking of which Dash and Scoots, while while not having a big role, were great in this episode, their relationship having developed almost as much as Bloom and Jacks' has. I want to place it as my second favorite of the season just below Lost Treasure of Griffonstone. However it's difficult to honestly enjoy something that offends people on such a personal level. At least there have been a lot of informative and varied opinions on this episode, for better or worst. I'm more intrigued by discussion on this one than the last three despite them all being about the best fashion marshmallow.
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:50 pm

One of my fav moments tho was how Applebloom was worried cuz time took aj a while you learn the song routine and Big Mac was like "oh DID she now?" Cuz it's continuity call back to how he's a great singer.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:55 am

DaBatGuy wrote:I torn about how to feel about this episode, there's so much that it does great. I think this is the first episode outside of a season premier/finale that has characters acknowledge the fact that the mane 6 have literally saved the world at least half a dozen times now and deserve some degree of adulation and respect for their accomplishments. Also seeing how the girls' status as pseudo-superheroes affected their usual lives is something I've wanted show to explore for years, as well as an episode that further explored Big Mac as a character and his relationship with AppleBloom.


The scene of AJ and AB horsing around was great and organic ("Ya little trickster!"). And I also really want to give props to the writing for interleaving this episode with the previous one in a way that nicely de-exoticizes the whole "superhero being called away by the map" thing. It's just a responsibility you have to deal with, like jury duty, and once you hear the call you're as liable as not to have an argument with someone around scheduling.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:35 am

That reminds me, something I would like for the show to explore is what each of the Mane Six think of their duties now. After all, they don't all have the same love of heroics and adventure that Rainbow Dash has, and these past two episodes have proven that the map will call them even at personally inopportune times. They never asked for this, but here they are, having to go and fix stuff anyway.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:23 pm

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Postby Kitsune (?) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:42 pm

Headless Horse wrote:https://twitter.com/ActorPeterNew/status/651984615834456064


That's... kind of a standard "I'm sorry you were offended but I did nothing wrong" non-pology.

Like there's some nice sentiments, I guess, but all this does is take the attention away from MLP and what it did, as if that changes anything. Which it doesn't.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 10:40 pm

Crimson Foxtail wrote:
That's... kind of a standard "I'm sorry you were offended but I did nothing wrong" non-pology.


Did he do something wrong?
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Postby Frith (?) » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:49 pm

I think this was one of the best episodes of S5. It wasn't perfect but I think the positive things well outweighted the negative things. And it was great to see finally Big Mac-centric episode.

My opinion about Big Mac in dress is rather neutral. It didn't bother me but I didn't found it particularly funny either. I think the only joke that was too over the top was the adam's apple joke. That was the most awkward moment of the episode.

Otherwise the episode was just amazing. Big Mac's problem was shown really well at the beginning of the episode and the last scene was really touching.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:55 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
Did he do something wrong?


I mean, I've seen plenty of people upset about this episode - maybe not in this thread, but it's definitely a sentiment a lot of people have - and yeah, a lot of people here were fine with the episode, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people still weren't so... Yeah, many things were done wrong.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:27 am

Crimson Foxtail wrote:
I mean, I've seen plenty of people upset about this episode - maybe not in this thread, but it's definitely a sentiment a lot of people have - and yeah, a lot of people here were fine with the episode, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people still weren't so... Yeah, many things were done wrong.


We're talking about Peter New here, though. The dude is an actor, he has no influence on the script. He went out of his way to write a sensitive, thoughtful response to the controversy, and yet it seems like that still isn't enough. What more could he have done?
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