S04E14: Filli Vanilli

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Re: Let's Re-Watch Week 36: Filli Vanilli

Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:19 pm

Marioland1 wrote: No, she was completely self-aware both of the situation and Fluttershy's feelings


Disagree with this bit. Pinkie is the least self-aware character of the main cast.

If you were to rank everybody on EQ, Pinkie would score the lowest (Twilight would probably be the next lowest).
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:29 pm

Yea Pinkie pretty obviously has a bad self awareness problem, it's reasonable to say she legitimately didn't understand she was kinda being a douchebag.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:38 pm

Something that really tips it to being bad for me, despite the characters calling it out and Pinkie Pie being notorious for lack of selfawareness is the voice direction. I really hope that whatever made them go for more screechy direction with Pinkie is toned down by season 5. Pinkie saying ignorant stuff is one thing, her screeching it and delivering it in a really grating tone is the other.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:46 pm

See, I haven't seen her having a screechy voice in S4...maybe this episode but certainly not in Pinkie Pride or Castle-Mania. I'm sorry that you feel that way, Perry. :fluttersmith:
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:55 pm

I've yet to hear a difference in the voices, but then again I haven't really listened to them very closely either.
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Postby Doctor Wheeze (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:54 pm

This is my favorite episode of the show. Mostly because Fluttershy is super adorable in it; she spends most of the episode singing and dancing and having fun and it's great :allears:

PictishBeast wrote:Glasses, beard, t-shirt, and weirdly-parted hair. Pick, like, ONE item from "unique traits rarely seen on ponies" if you really want to go there.

The character's name should have been Pony Creator.

He also had a weird accent :spike101:
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:28 pm

Marioland1 wrote:That's probably because Pinkie parties for a living when she's not baking or pulling pranks.

That's a pretty lackluster excuse and a pretty lazy way of looking at Pinkie.
Marioland1 wrote:This was Pinkie Pie magic at work, and each time it was only because Twilight almost spilled a Pinkie Promise. Nopony breaks a Pinkie Promise and gets away with it. It's how they're supposed to work. Didn't you read page 314 of the Official Pinkie Pie Code?

Her "Promise" was causing her mental anguish and tearing her friends apart, but I guess that's all okay because "Pinkie Magic." :-/

The Spike thing was before her major breakdown, so I still count it.

Marioland1 wrote: No, she was completely self-aware both of the situation and Fluttershy's feelings

No, she wasn't. As evident by the dialogue of...

:facehoof:"What Pinkie meant to say was that you were really great."

:conftoot:"Wait, didn't I say that?"
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:17 pm

Yeah, I think it was pretty clear Pinkie had no idea Fluttershy was hurt by the things she said.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:20 pm

Her obliviousness was kind of the whole joke, and the whole running theme of her role in the episode. "But ya know, you kinda sounded like a dude :-P "
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Jan 19, 2015 7:30 am

In Spain's dub, that line is changed to "you sounded like a horse!" I think it's actually funnier. :v:
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Postby Durandal (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 1:37 am

/\ /\ /\ That's hilarious

Really, my favorite part of this episode, as with almost any Fluttershy episode, is the fact that I feel yourself silently cheering her on the whole time. When she's really getting into the music, shaking her hooves and belting out a song, I'm just like "Yeah! Trying new things and getting out of your comfort zone! You go, girl!" and then the curtain falls down and suddenly I'm all :saddershy: . I guess you could say the same thing with most other characters, but in different aspects. Like, Twilight is struggling with school / academic type stuff, Rarity with professional work and image stuff, but Fluttershy is different because she's concerned with things that most people have to worry about every single day.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:39 am

:allears: :"Oh, Rarity, the Pony Tones are really gonna make the Ponyville Pet Center fundraiser so special. Thank you so much for helping me help the animals."

Image :"Oh, yes. It is wonderful when a plan comes together without any sort of draaaaama, isn't it?"

Image :"Eh-heh-heh, you're not foreshadowing, right?"

Image :"No..."
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:31 pm

Yeah, count me in as someone who finds Pinkie's voice getting annoying in later episodes. Like, wow, it's like they're trying to crack my eardrums :bluh:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 3:33 pm

Again, I still don't really hear it. Pinkie's voice sounds almost exactly the same from S1 to me. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:06 pm

Well, compare this:



to this:


(particularly notable is the bit with Pinkie and Twilight at the library party, but the whole video helps since it's a compilation of season 1 and 2 moments)

In both the bit from Filli Vanilli and the bit from Friendship is Magic Part 1, Pinkie Pie is being "annoying", as in, she talks fast and goes highpitched and over the top; but in Filli Vanilli, she goes beyond that into a screechy, grating tone. In similiar moments in season 1 and 2, she does that next to never. There, she's highpitched and excited too, but doesn't enter that screechy area (not even when she yells "You know what this calls for? A PARTY!")

Bits like the one from Filli Vanilli started popping up rather regularly in season 3 and further in season 4. Episodes like Pinkie Pride manage to mostly avoid it, so it's not a totally consistent issue, but it does happen much more often in season 3 and particularly 4. Whether it's going to be a continuing trend in season 5 remains to be seen, but I personally hope they backpedal a bit to Pinkie being bouncy, but not constantly screechy. Even when she talks normally in seasons 3 and 4, her tendency to go over the top seems to be more present.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:11 pm

Hmm...OK, I see where you're coming from but it still doesn't seem to differ that much from one to the other. Regardless, I sincerely hope that it changes so that you can enjoy her again.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:16 pm

You really need to stop thinking that it's a black-and-white thing. I never even once said "I don't enjoy Pinkie Pie at all anymore, ever", I said "this tendency annoys me and makes some episodes with her really grating". Like I said, episodes like Pinkie Pride get it right by using that screechy tone much less, and I loved episodes like Pinkie Pride and Pinkie Apple Pie. I just find this tendency in voice direction really bothersome, because it especially affects bit parts of Pinkie, like in Filli Vanilli.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:26 pm

Oops, sorry about that, I misread what you meant by that.
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 4:31 pm

I made a post backing up Perry a few weeks ago in the offseason thread, but with different videos:

Seven Seas wrote:Pinkie Pie has been heading the opposite direction... actually, I guess it's that she's been kinda all over the place compared to the other characters. There was a period in Season 2 when Pinkie seemed to be settling on a more natural, conversational inflection that I really liked. But lately, outside her emotional focus episodes like Pinkie Pride, Maud Pie, etc., it seems like she's been getting progressively more shrill and screamy and it makes me sad. :deflated:



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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:39 pm

I don't know if it's a change in voice direction so much as it is a change in how Andrea Libman performs the character. Like I've seen her do Pinkie's voice at conventions and every line ends with a scream--which to be fair gets huge applause and cheers from the audience and I'd be tempted to do it too.

:flutterunsmith: "Um, I have a question for Andrea, um could you do Pinkie reciting the um, the Gettysburg Address"
:rant: "Four score and SEVENYEARSAGO"

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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:41 pm

Could be a mix of both, too. Voice direction and actor influence each other pretty hugely.

Getting loud at the end of the line works, it's not like they should never do it, but I find it very overused.
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Postby doodlesplat (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm

In the first video of Perry's post "you'd be there on stage...", I think the writing might have something to do with it too. I don't think those lines would've worked as well if they were unharshly delivered.

"It's a flyer..." scene sounds definitely shriller than strictly necessary. This harshness, when it happens sporadically, doesn't acoustically* bother me, but it does change my perception of Pinkie's character slightly. If used too much, it would make me nostalgic for the more laid-back and goofier early Pinkie. So far, with the exception of Filli Vanilli, I haven't felt it was overused. I also can't tell if there is a trend without actually going back and reviewing all of Pinkie's performances.
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* YMMV; I watch stuff in a quiet room using headphones at moderate volume.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 8:56 pm

Pinkie's screechiness here isn't something I hold against Andrea Libman or anyone else involved with the show. After all, she doesn't come across like that all that often otherwise, especially in episodes that are starring her. She was just very excited and thought that she could make Fluttershy feel better by acting so exuberant, but she's just not quite empathetic enough to understand that that's the sort of thing that does not work on people like Fluttershy.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:30 pm

How obscure a reference is Milli Vanilli these days?
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:53 pm

Rewatch aaaaaaa

Sweet holy fuck I can't put into words how much I love this episode.

It's like the opposite story of Green Isn't Your Color; same character dynamics in play, same mental obstacles to deal with, but in this case instead of being a story about Fluttershy going along with something she doesn't want to do out of a misguided sense of loyalty or demureness, now it's about Fluttershy indulging in a pursuit that she genuinely enjoys but that is as dangerous—to her—as a rock climber tackling El Capitan. She's putting her mental well-being at risk, in a form of thrill-seeking that is meaningful only to someone like her for whom dabbling with mortal danger means something like "appearing on stage".

The interplay between Rarity and Fluttershy is that much more in-depth given their long history together; Rarity cottoning on to what's going on in Fluttershy's head (both when she defers to Fluttershy's wishes not to peform, and later when she realizes that Fluttershy is begging to be given the spotlight now that there's a way she can deal with it) is something that the self-absorbed Rarity of GIYC would probably not have done so readily. She's still Rarity, of course, but she's grown from having had to accommodate her friend for so long. And this is a new wrinkle in their relationship, something they haven't experienced before.

I simply cannot say enough good things about the song. I mean god damn. Musically and lyrically, it is head-and-shoulders above 95% of the rest of the songs in the show in terms of both ambitiousness and in the skill of its execution. It's just freaking beautiful to listen to; it's well constructed and the music is both exuberantly simple and cleverly surprising. It's even got a lyrical theme that underlines Fluttershy's state of mind every time she sings it; whenever she says "I've got the music in me", it's a recapitulation of the fact that stage fright or not, she loves to sing and is really good at it, and she's pining for a way to express it that doesn't clash with her psyche. I don't know how the team was able to come up with something so uncharacteristically rich and stylistically correct and innovative, whether it's Amy Keating Rogers doing overtime on the barbershop research beat, or if this was a matter of Ingram arranging the hell out of things and pulling together a quartet that could rock the hell out of their performance (I think AKR probably did the heavy lifting, since a lot of the surrounding writing—like Rarity complaining about how she'd have to rearrange the parts—sounds like it comes from someone with a well-established musical composition background in her own right). But however it came together, the whipped cream on top of it is the reprise at the end that manages to fold in Fluttershy's own little trees-and-flowers song from the beginning, and make it all feel like a natural fit even though the two songs didn't start out very similar at all.

The song also has what has to be one of the top five moments in the entire show for me, the moment where Fluttershy realizes to her own astonishment that she really really loves what she's doing:

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I mean you even see the tip of her hair curl up to punctuate it, oh my gooooooood :yay:

Dear fucking god the whole main first run-through of the song is just such a beautiful experience. The fact that they give it all plenty of time to breathe and play out, that we get to hear the entire song and not just a clip as part of a montage, is just such a bonus—storytelling-wise they could have cropped it down into a shorthand version of what we in the audience would have realized was just a stand-in for what the full-length song would have sounded like, and the impact (emotionally and musically) would have been sorely reduced. But as it is, you get both barrels right in your face, and the song is genuinely every bit as good as the on-screen audience is acting like it is, which is such a rare treat in any cartoon.

The only gripe I have about it is kind of a weird one. Big Mac/Fluttershy has the opening stanza, obviously; but then, the second stanza has the blue tenor guy stepping out to do his own solo. But the soloist voice I could swear is a female alto. I've listened to it several times now and I just can't hear it as anything other than that they meant for the other female singer (not Rarity) to have that line, but the animators gave it to the blue guy (whose real tenor voice you can hear pretty clearly in other parts of the song).

Song aside: there are a lot of interesting tableaux/establishing shots, particularly surrounding the pet fair (which I love from a worldbuilding perspective; the idea that the ponies would have a fair in which random attendees would get to go up to booths and play with seals and turkeys and deer and decide who they might want to adopt into a horse household is just so delightfully goofy). Lots of ponies in the background wandering around and decorating things, but surprisingly few visual gags. It's a lot of ambient action but no jokes. Very interesting atmospheric choice. I kept wondering whether I was supposed to be looking for things to giggle at, but all I ever found was that weird OC guy and his daughter. (Seriously WTF)

Pinkie, I dunno, I thought she was funny, and the fact that they kept lampshading and calling out how inappropriate her behavior was defangs the arguments against her for me. As for her screechiness, it was interesting that it was actually set up intentionally that way here—Pinkie's very first line, when the ponies hear comment on Fluttershy's singing, was "Singing with the MOST BEAUTIFUL VOICE! :amazing: " —which I think was an intentional inside riff on the fact that it was Andrea Libman delivering that line, in what is meant to be as much of a contrast with Fluttershy's sweet and melodious voice as possible. She's trying to sound like the anti-Fluttershy there, and that theme just carries over throughout the rest of the episode.

Random: the out-of-the-blue Matrix bullet-time effect when Fluttershy tosses the seeds in the air :lol:

Also the little rapid-fire scene between Applejack and Big Mac where she instantly guesses the entire course of events and all he has to say is "eeyup" and "nope"—I can't believe they're still coming up with new ways to play with that schtick and keep it actually funny.

I'm a bit iffy on the scene where her friends logic Fluttershy into submission about how much she must have enjoyed performing, because weren't the screaming fans and all the adoration just great? I mean, maybe the answer is still no, right? Maybe Fluttershy really seriously can't deal with that much of that kind of attention, even if she enjoys the Zen-like experience of singing with a group. These are subtle interactions of mental stimuli, and someone like Fluttershy surely is packed full of competing impulses that fight with each other all the time. The imagery of spotlights that conflate the adoration of stardom with being chased down an alley by police are very clearly playing off this theme; and it's a little bit disappointing to me that the story kind of gives up on that thread by having Fluttershy just give in to her friends' prodding rather than making them understand that even still, even now, she really just doesn't like being on stage in front of people, and no amount of logic and common sense and shaming is going to change that. In the end she's up there triumphantly singing, and the end result of the lesson seems to have kinda gone off into the weeds a bit, with the message being "Hey, just get over it, it's all in your head, you'll thank us later".

But that's a small thing. Overall, damn: best episode of Season 4 for me by a long way, and definitely some of the show's best work ever. It's the kind of thing I'd unhesitatingly show a newcomer, if it weren't for the reliance on the Bridle Gossip callback. (Incidentally even Zecora's part is really good; she had some excellent and organic-sounding rhymes, way better than some of her other more wacky appearances, some of which AKR was also responsible for.)


E: I hadn't noticed this before, but early on when the Ponytones are rehearsing, Fluttershy is singing along with them while she sets up birdhouses. At least for a moment, until she thinks people are watching :modesty:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:15 pm

Headless Horse wrote:I'm a bit iffy on the scene where her friends logic Fluttershy into submission about how much she must have enjoyed performing, because weren't the screaming fans and all the adoration just great? I mean, maybe the answer is still no, right? Maybe Fluttershy really seriously can't deal with that much of that kind of attention, even if she enjoys the Zen-like experience of singing with a group. These are subtle interactions of mental stimuli, and someone like Fluttershy surely is packed full of competing impulses that fight with each other all the time. The imagery of spotlights that conflate the adoration of stardom with being chased down an alley by police are very clearly playing off this theme; and it's a little bit disappointing to me that the story kind of gives up on that thread by having Fluttershy just give in to her friends' prodding rather than making them understand that even still, even now, she really just doesn't like being on stage in front of people, and no amount of logic and common sense and shaming is going to change that. In the end she's up there triumphantly singing, and the end result of the lesson seems to have kinda gone off into the weeds a bit, with the message being "Hey, just get over it, it's all in your head, you'll thank us later".

The thing is, that's actually all quite real. I've always had friends and family prodding me into doing things like that and I am definitely a lot less uncomfortable about doing things for people whom I know. Remember that, in the end, Fluttershy and the Ponytones were only performing for the other four of the Mane Six, Spike, and several of Fluttershy's animals. It's not as if she miraculously got over her social anxiety during the course of this episode's events, but she did make a small step towards moving past that aspect of it, and I think that was the main lesson here.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:17 pm

Yeah, and that's why I overlook the muddiness of the message's delivery. Because, like, after that performance her friends started to act like now the problem is solved :twiright: , but only then did she drive home to them that she still wasn't about to go off on a world tour with her newfound confidence. They still didn't quite get it, being (for the moment) traditional cartoon characters from a the-problem-of-the-week-is-over cartoon world, but now they probably do.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:21 pm

I didn't see that as a problem with the episode, though. In my experience, that's exactly how most other people are. For those who haven't personally experienced it, social anxiety is rather difficult to comprehend, especially for extroverts. As such I majorly appreciated that aspect of this episode's lesson.
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 6:06 pm

Headless Horse wrote:The only gripe I have about it is kind of a weird one. Big Mac/Fluttershy has the opening stanza, obviously; but then, the second stanza has the blue tenor guy stepping out to do his own solo. But the soloist voice I could swear is a female alto. I've listened to it several times now and I just can't hear it as anything other than that they meant for the other female singer (not Rarity) to have that line, but the animators gave it to the blue guy (whose real tenor voice you can hear pretty clearly in other parts of the song).

Fun fact: I did a string quartet arrangement of this song the week of the episode because there was no other fucking way to get it out of my head. :amazing: That's actually a duet in close harmony, not a solo. The alto's on top with the melody, and the tenor mostly mirrors the same line a third below (but is for some reason super far down in the mix, so he's tough to hear). The animation mostly reflects that, though Torch Song doesn't immediately step out.

Also, that happens to be one of my favorite details in the episode. :allears:

Seven Seas wrote:I love that song. I LOVE THAT SONG SO MUCH. :sweetielarm: The whole video is overflowing with adorable moments (Aloe and Lotus at 2:05!!!), and wonderful little character-building tidbits economically conveyed. But as a musician, my favorite moment is at 0:55-1:00, when Toe Tapper and Torch Song (the background ponies) are singing those close harmonies and their eyes lock onto each other from across the stage and they're both glowing, because that's it, that's what it is when you're in an ensemble and everyone's on fire and the two of you are reading each other's minds and for that moment, you are the two closest people in the world.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:43 pm

I should change my avatar back to Flutterbegeyes in honor of this great episode.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:05 pm

Seven Seas wrote:Fun fact: I did a string quartet arrangement of this song the week of the episode because there was no other fucking way to get it out of my head. :amazing: That's actually a duet in close harmony, not a solo. The alto's on top with the melody, and the tenor mostly mirrors the same line a third below (but is for some reason super far down in the mix, so he's tough to hear). The animation mostly reflects that, though Torch Song doesn't immediately step out.


Yeah, I see what you mean; I saw her pop out into the foreground later in the line, and saw her mouth was moving with the melody, so I figured they were trying to at least have her singing the same words. But the animation really seems to be emphasizing Toe Tapper more, because he's the first one you see, even though the alto line is way more prominent in the mix, I guess.


BTW, I don't know if it's the Da Vinci's Notebook fan in me or what, but I have such a soft spot for a cappella/barbershop music that has just a little bit of instrumental accompaniment, like percussion. :allears:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:40 pm

I think the crux of the argument at the end (and the point that Fluttershy finally had to admit to) was Rarity's, which was not "now everything is solved," but more "you faced this thing that you had built up to be terrifying, now look back at it: was it really as bad as you thought?" It's an interesting point to make, and it's up to Fluttershy to decide for herself that it really wasn't, which is a nice subtle point in this episode's favor.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:44 pm

Wylie wrote:I think the crux of the argument at the end (and the point that Fluttershy finally had to admit to) was Rarity's, which was not "now everything is solved," but more "you faced this thing that you had built up to be terrifying, now look back at it: was it really as bad as you thought?" It's an interesting point to make, and it's up to Fluttershy to decide for herself that it really wasn't, which is a nice subtle point in this episode's favor.


I liked that approach to the situation as well.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:49 pm

Yeah, the interesting angle is that even though the big blaring point of the story is :speakest: BE SENSITIVE TO PEOPLE WITH PHOBIAS AND SOCIAL ANXIETY, the lesson at the end—that she still had some hard work to do herself and she was at fault in a way unless she did it—was still Fluttershy's to write.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:04 am

Ooh- one last point on this one:

:vogue: Fluttershy, you must join us and make the Pony Tones Quartet the Pony Tones Quintet!

(not much time passes)

:wat: We can't perform without Big Mac! We'd have to rearrange all the music!
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:41 am

Wylie wrote:Ooh- one last point on this one:

:vogue: Fluttershy, you must join us and make the Pony Tones Quartet the Pony Tones Quintet!

(not much time passes)

:wat: We can't perform without Big Mac! We'd have to rearrange all the music!

While I don't know much about music theory, I would guess that it's far easier to add a fifth part to an existing song than it is to deal with losing one of the existing four parts.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:27 pm

Also adding her wouldn't be under time pressure; even if they weren't ready for her at the pet fundraiser, she could perform in the future. Losing Big Mac meant they'd have to prepare an all new performance by that evening.
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:30 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:While I don't know much about music theory, I would guess that it's far easier to add a fifth part to an existing song than it is to deal with losing one of the existing four parts.


Yep. Especially if you'd be replacing a bass/baritone with a soprano.
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