S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

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Re: S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

Postby Ragnar (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:33 am

Headless Horse wrote:And there's got to be some significance to the fact that Waking Luna (particularly in this episode) had a very different, much more casual voice than Dream Luna. What that significance is, well, there you've got me.

:amazed: Wait... am I dreaming again?
:speakest: LOL NO I AM JUST HANGING OUT BACKSTAGE DURING REHEARSAL LIKE A COMPLETELY NORMAL PONY
:sweetiefrown:
:speakest: OH SO AS I WAS SAYING IN YOUR DREAM

I figure it's for a couple reasons:
1. In SB's dream, SB had just messed up Rarity's thing in a way that resonated with Luna in such a way that Luna feels the need to lay down the law. The next day, though, SB is doing the right thing and of course Luna is happy to help.
2. In real life, Luna is important, but she's important in an "I am the least interesting Beatle" way (I don't know anything about the Beatles, but I assume there's a boring one). In dreams, Luna is a mother fucking god.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:12 am

Headless Horse wrote:And there's got to be some significance to the fact that Waking Luna (particularly in this episode) had a very different, much more casual voice than Dream Luna. What that significance is, well, there you've got me.

Apparently Tabitha lost her voice for awhile at some point and this might be related. :pinkieshrug: (First time I heard about it was today)

But since Rarity was fine, I'm not fully buying that was a factor
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:14 am

Semi-connected thoughts time, go!

So, after rewatching the episode, I think this is one of the episodes that appreciates on repeat viewings. It is not our usually lighthearted show, this thing is serious all the way down. It's way more serious than Sisterhooves, which had plenty of silly comedy moments to break up the heavier stuff. Even the funny bits we do get are only a gateway to tragedy (SB's "big girl" makeup, anyone?).

Like, this bit is something that only makes sense in full context.

Image

Rarity has just rushed in with the dresses, and Sweetie Belle's sense of good taste is ringing. She knows these dresses are fab and way better than the ones she did. Sweetie was expecting alterations, not a re-do from scratch. It brings back memories of all of the times that she thinks Rarity showed her up—true or not.

Image

But she decides to put that thought away. "No, Rarity wasn't doing this to show me up, she just wanted to help. She's not lying." Doubt is clouding her judgment. The show isn't ruined, and they are pretty fab, so whatever, she'll roll with it.

Sweetie Belle is fishing for compliments at the after party, and it's clear that her parts of the show might not have been the best, so the other ponies spare her feelings by lying through omission. They thought that giving Sweetie Belle any kind of compliment would have been fine, so they complimented the dresses—exactly what she didn't want to hear.

Aside from sibling relationships, it's also a cautionary tale about accepting the flaws and trying to improve in one's own creative process, even though it's not at the forefront. SB is too emotionally invested in her own work to recognize its flaws, while the older, more mature ponies don't give her a straight answer in response to her prodding for reviews. She blames the success of the show (or rather, lack of compliments towards her) on Rarity instead of stepping back and realizing that hey, this was her first stab and that it wasn't exactly High Art. Accepting that Rarity was not out to get her also forces her to actually think about why those dresses were getting complements instead of her own work.

It's not exactly front and center, and a whole episode could be done on a moral dealing with this, but for a secondary moral it's good. The girls gave lip service to being gracious, modest, and classy, but in the very next scene the CMCs (and especially Sweetie Belle) are all looking for compliments and strutting around like they own the joint. Being gracious and modest is about doing things for their own sake, because they are good on their own merits, not because you want to impress other people. It's a pattern of behavior that goes way back for Sweetie Belle—hence the fifth birthday party. She thinks being like Rarity means being a diva, being showy, and getting compliments, but what being like her sister REALLY means is giving more of yourself than you expect in return.

As far as :speakest: goes...

Image

This is the look of "take your medicine, kid." Throughout the whole thing she's very serious, and pretty quiet. As a teacher, Luna is letting Sweetie Belle work through the problems on her own. Sure, she could have skipped to the big finale, the "this is what happens because of you," but it wouldn't have addressed the core problem of the relationship. The obvious parallels are there between Luna/SB and PC/Rarity, but Luna isn't just coming out and saying it. You could have slid PC into Rarity's role and Luna as SB in the fifth birthday party (just change the plot to something about royal duties) and gotten the exact same emotions, but it would have been a bit redundant and not as relevant to the episode's primary characters. Luna only briefly mentions her past; it's a perfect example of a "show, don't tell" in the context of teaching. Luna could have lectured SB about the dangers of jealousy, but she was able to show everything first hand. SB learned from her own mistakes and matured a lot.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:33 am

I agree with others that this is one of the more "dramatic" episodes the show has done. There were some light-hearted humor, but they took the backseat in favor of the emotional tensions between the two siblings. It's even more interesting because this was by Dave Polsky, who is primarily the show's "funny" writer. Nice to see that the dude has range.

I know that I always go on about how I prefer "gag" episodes over the "serious" ones, but this one worked out pretty well.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:44 am

Mr. Big wrote:I know that I always go on about how I prefer "gag" episodes over the "serious" ones, but this one worked out pretty well.

I pretty much universally like the funnier episodes better than the serious ones. I like when ponies make me laugh. :lol:

I did like this episode, but not as much as Sisterhooves Social. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Weird Autumn (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:47 am

Ragnar wrote:2. In real life, Luna is important, but she's important in an "I am the least interesting Beatle" way (I don't know anything about the Beatles, but I assume there's a boring one). In dreams, Luna is a mother fucking god.

Nah, the comparison doesn't really work. Luna is the show's literphorical dark horse; Ringo's just the less talented one nobody cares about.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:49 am

Miss Cheerliee seemed to have picked up a little snark in this episode with her "Hello..." comment when calling the CMC for the play. I'd prefer she didn't have it, but that's just me. I didn't mind her grin, though. :memories:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 4:54 am

Octavia wrote:I pretty much universally like the funnier episodes better than the serious ones. I like when ponies make me laugh. :lol:

I did like this episode, but not as much as Sisterhooves Social. :pinkieshrug:

Yeah, I prefer funnier episodes as well. I made an exception to this one because it was well-done enough.
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Postby Ragnar (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:19 am

Opposing Farce wrote:Nah, the comparison doesn't really work. Luna is the show's literphorical dark horse; Ringo's just the less talented one nobody cares about.

In the fandom she's the dark horse, but in Equestria she's the night shift. Maybe that doesn't affect how big of a deal she is, but it used to.

Then again, I don't know anything about Ringo. Apparently he's an okay drummer? I don't know, I could maybe have thought a bit more and come up with a different analogy.
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Aramek wrote: :eyebrow: Hmmf, Ragnar the Red indeed.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:29 am

Well at least with the comics, we see that Luna does not take an active role in the actual ruling of the country. Another reason that I think the dream thing is a new thing so she can engage the populace.

One bit of world building that came from this is that Luna's dream visits are not limited to the children of Equestria, but the adults as well.

:pcstare: did you tell Twilight and her friends to bring us snacks for the game tonight?

:speakest: yes. And I told the apple one to bring us a barrel of cider, and the Pink one to bring you those cupcakes you like so much.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:32 am

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Cheerilee, consult the coolio CMC if you want to talk again anytime soon. :cooliebelle:

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Next time Sweetie, jump off of Star Road Swimming Pool Board. You gimped the jump!
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Postby Eshe (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:33 am

The impression I'm getting from this thread is that the general consensus is a great episode, but not fabulous. For me, it was a solid 11/10, probably one of my favourite episodes and I'm not even a huge fan of Rarity/Sweetie Bell! The feels! As one who has competed for her mom's approval with my own sister, I totally get the whole "outshining" thing and I was teary by the end of the episode. I LOVED Luna. I haven't read any of her comics and I don't read fanfics, so I've only experienced show Luna. I love that she truly cares about her subjects. She could have easily dismissed Sweetie Bell's actions as petty, disrespectful or spoiled, but she actually took her seriously and helped the rift between her and Rarity.

Ack! I barely even know how to write how I feel. I just loved this episode to pieces. The darker theme. The return of Luna. The dramatic reactions.

Not to mention the whole cherry/cinnamon/red thing made me laugh. :gotcha:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:34 am

Why didn't I like this one? All the pieces were there: Rarity/Sweetie, continuity, ponies fighting, cute shit... But for whatever reason this never got off the ground for me. The whole thing felt weird and off-model and I can't put my finger on why.

The play felt off. Why is Sweetie putting on a show for adults, and why would they want to see it? The setting seemed off. Why is Sweetie sleeping at Rarity's, and not at her parents' house? The Sapphire Shores mansion felt off. Something about the structure and the earpiece guard at the entrance felt like a weird import. The flashbacks felt off. Too much explanation, not enough emotion. Luna felt off. She didn't have her archaic speech or her melodrama, and came across as stiff and clinical.

None of this stuff is bad, necessarily -- it's a good thing when pony tries something new, right? On paper most of those things sound fine. But man, almost nothing in this episode jelled with me. It was like an out-of-body pony-watching experience. It was like an episode of pony made by aliens using a set of magnetic poetry. :gonkity:

Things I liked:
  • Sweetie bitching about shades of red and doing a spot-on Rarity impression.
  • Sapphire Shores sporting a "behind the scenes" look and not simply being copy-pasted from her previous appearance.
  • Sapphire Shores being a weirdo diva, what with her "bad luck" superstition and her love of dolphins and having a petty, cruel streak if the vision of the future is to be taken at face value. Seriously, at this point Sapphire Shores is a more well-rounded character than Shining Armor.
  • Cheerilee!
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:37 am

Headless Horse wrote:And there's got to be some significance to the fact that Waking Luna (particularly in this episode) had a very different, much more casual voice than Dream Luna. What that significance is, well, there you've got me.

Image I'm not on the clock.

Image :speakest: FAAAAACE YOURRRRR FEEEEEARRRRSSSSS

Image Rather a lot of effort to keep up appearances.
But after dark, or more accurately, after-after dark, I tend to let my hair down.

:amazed: Wait... am I dreaming again?
:speakest: LOL NO I AM JUST HANGING OUT BACKSTAGE DURING REHEARSAL LIKE A COMPLETELY NORMAL PONY
:sweetiefrown:

:speakest: An interesting fact, one of a few perks of being a Princess of Equestria is a standing all access VIP pass to every show, including rehearsals. Of course, we seldom take advantage of this due to our busy schedule.
:ohboy: COOL!
:unenthused: But on occasion this fact slips the mind of the staff...

Image Name?
:unenthused: Surely you are joking.
Image NAME?!
:speakest: Princess Luna the First and Only of her name, and by the Grace of Lauren, Eternal Princess of Canterlot, of the Moon, of Equestria, of the Night and the Realm of Dreams, Defender of the Equine Race (and the occasional Dragon)
Image Let me check the list ...


Image Nope, you're not on it.
:unenthused: Mayhap I am simply listed as simply 'Luna'.

:unenthused: Might I see this list?
Image I can't let you do that.
:unenthused: Why not?
Image Policy.
Image Policy?! I was led to believe that my sister and I had a standing arrangement...
Image I know of no such thing, miss. Now if you could move along.
:speakest: Do you have any idea who I am?
Image Do you have any idea how often I hear that?
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:38 am

Sweetie at Rarity's didn't bug me at all. After Sisterhooves Social, I think Sweetie Belle probably spends the weekends over at her Sisters and Rarity is (usually) happy to have her and spend time with her.

The play for adults was odd. There was no reason not to just have it be in front of the school ponies.
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Postby Weird Autumn (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:47 am

The Doctor wrote:The play for adults was odd. There was no reason not to just have it be in front of the school ponies.

Look, I know it can be hard to tell what with the eternal nights and the resurrected chaos gods and the existence of Pinkie Pie, but in between all of that stuff life in Ponyville gets really boring.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:48 am

PictishBeast wrote:Why is Sweetie putting on a show for adults, and why would they want to see it?
The setting seemed off. Why is Sweetie sleeping at Rarity's, and not at her parents' house?
The Sapphire Shores mansion felt off. Something about the structure and the earpiece guard at the entrance felt like a weird import.
The flashbacks felt off. Too much explanation, not enough emotion.
Luna felt off. She didn't have her archaic speech or her melodrama, and came across as stiff and clinical.

-Can't argue this one. They just made a bunch of schoolpony models for Twilight Time. It's somewhat weird, although it's such a minor part of the episode, I don't see it as a major strike.
-I dunno, I love the idea of Sweetie coming over sometimes and sleeping at her big sis's.
-Uh... I have been thinking the whole time it was like her workplace complex or something, not where she lives. Maybe that's not the issue you're getting that, though. :pinkieshrug:

Image

It's as unique and classy as she is. :vogue: But re: bouncer pony, I can see how he looks similar to the guy you disliked in Vanilli.

-Even though we know everything will be fine and Luna is probably exaggerating for Sweetie's sake, Sweetie's still scared shitless. Plenty enough emotion for me, gimme some more Lesson Zero freakouts (even if imagined). :excellent:
-I will say this about Luna - maybe I just don't care about Luna much, but for a Sweetie episode, Luna being Celesta Jr. and simply guiding Sweetie and thus making the episode Sweetie's was totally fine with me. :pinkieshrug: Now obviously this could have been done while maintaining the archaic / melodramatic tone to a degree too, so that's not really a defense, just a comment.
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Postby BartonFink (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:50 am

Ragnar wrote:Then again, I don't know anything about Ringo. Apparently he's an okay drummer? I don't know, I could maybe have thought a bit more and come up with a different analogy.

Luna is Garfunkel to Celestia's Simon? :gotcha: :unenthused:
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 5:57 am

Oh my goddess, this episode. :allears: Had me hooked from start to finish. :yay:
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:32 am

I looooved that episode, oh I simply adored it! So many good things to say about it! :ohboy: Rarity and Sweetie Belle, best sisters. :vogue: :cooliebelle:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:53 am

Headless Horse wrote:And there's got to be some significance to the fact that Waking Luna (particularly in this episode) had a very different, much more casual voice than Dream Luna. What that significance is, well, there you've got me.

:ohboy: Princess Luna! Are you here to help me stitch this dress back up?
:moonie: WHOA, AM I DREAMING AGAIN?
Image W-wait, what? I dreamed that you came and told me to fix my mistakes!
:moonie: DUUUUUDE, I HAD THE SAME DREAM!
Image
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:25 am

Personally, I love the whole dreamwalking idea and I hope they do it with a member of the Main Six one day.
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Postby Ragnar (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:44 am

ROBOT B9 wrote:Personally, I love the whole dreamwalking idea and I hope they do it with a member of the Main Six one day.

Hey that's right, the mane six have never had a Luna dream. Do they even know she can do that?

And it's an old joke, but when Sweetie Belle asked Luna whether she was really Princess Luna, or whether SB was just dreaming, Luna should have just said been like,
:speakest: Yes.

SlateSlabrock wrote: :ohboy: Princess Luna! Are you here to help me stitch this dress back up?
:moonie: WHOA, AM I DREAMING AGAIN?
Image W-wait, what? I dreamed that you came and told me to fix my mistakes!
:moonie: DUUUUUDE, I HAD THE SAME DREAM!
Image

Secret twist: Luna isn't a dreamwalker. Scootaloo just had a dream about that, and then Sweetie Belle heard about Scootaloo's dream and ended up having a similar dream because she'd been thinking about that recently, and then Sweetie Belle runs up in this episode and yells "There you are, quick, help me fix this" and Luna says,
:speakest: I beg your pardon?
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Aramek wrote: :eyebrow: Hmmf, Ragnar the Red indeed.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:49 am

I'd assume Twilight would know about it...but it would still be really cool to see.
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Postby !saak (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:42 am

First watch, I'm not sure what to say :allears: I still need to let it sink in but holy moly was this a good episode. It feels like the complete package, taking the established parts, weaving new plot threads with them and ultimately crafting an episode that's more than the sum of its parts. A culmination of sorts. One of my favourite episodes this season so far.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:06 pm

The Doctor wrote:Sweetie at Rarity's didn't bug me at all. After Sisterhooves Social, I think Sweetie Belle probably spends the weekends over at her Sisters and Rarity is (usually) happy to have her and spend time with her.

That's about how I see it, too. It is a slightly unusual living arrangement, but given that Rarity is an adult, it seems to work out pretty well. Maybe their parents do a lot of traveling and Rarity was willing to continue looking after her sister like that.
The Doctor wrote:The play for adults was odd. There was no reason not to just have it be in front of the school ponies.

Maybe their classmates would've just been too honest. As Kefka was saying earlier, the adults were just trying to not let Sweetie Belle down, which is exactly what set off her jealousy again. Had Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon been there, I doubt they would've had any second thoughts about telling Sweetie Belle that the play stank, and with that reality check she wouldn't have thought Rarity was stealing all her attention.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:16 pm

Speaking of which I just love how nonchalant the CMC are in front of adult ponies, the part where Sweetie went up to Noteworthy. basically interigating him asking him what he liked about the play reminded me of the S1 scene where Applebloom was trying to get The Doctor to buy some apples.


:anticipation: BUY SOME APPLES
:sweetielarm: TELL ME YOU LOVED MY PLAY!!

:eep: Yikes, this kids dont hold back do they!?
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:23 pm

I always thought Sweetie was living with Rarity all the time for some reason. I know they have parents but I thought they were away on vacation. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:25 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:I always thought Sweetie was living with Rarity all the time for some reason. I know they have parents but I thought they were away on vacation. :pinkieshrug:

They were for the events of Sisterhooves Social, but given that we saw her father and her room in the old house in One Bad Apple, the parents are definitely still around.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:27 pm

Yeah, I thought the parents were just visiting Ponyville on vacation or to meet up with Rarity and Sweetie.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:33 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:Yeah, I thought the parents were just visiting Ponyville on vacation or to meet up with Rarity and Sweetie.



My headcannon is Rarity's parents just suck at their job, and instead of parenting use the money the dad made from his days as A hoof ball player to constantly go on Vacation. Thus the reason Rarity watches Sweetie so often.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:36 pm

So:

Image

Image

:ponder: Reference Y/N
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:06 pm

Hmm...nah, I don't see it. The Raricloud seems to be completely different from The Lion King one to me. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:10 pm

:excite: Hay everypony...I've got all my files stored in the cloud! They're perfectly safe now!

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:shock: Let me get back to you on that...
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:17 pm

This episode just gets better on rewatches—I’ll have to rank it a top tier episode of the season, and best sibling episode without a doubt. Claire did an excellent job in this one, I loved the slight quaver in her voice as Sweetie Belle was coming clean to Rarity. Regarding the chase scene, it seemed another case of a unicorn inconveniently forgetting that she has magic. If it can happen to Twilight Sparkle, it can also happen to Rarity.

As for adults being at the play, it was specifically stated that their friends would be there. That includes Snips and Snails, but apparently not many else their own age bracket. Still, it is conceivable that the play itself just wasn’t something that appealed to a younger audience. From we saw of it, righty so, though it did feature some sweet-ass hats (Scootaloo didn’t do much in this episode, but her elation on receiving that impressive hat was a highlight (that, and the hovering)).

Their parents remain a bit of an enigma in their absence (also not present at their youngest daughter’s fifth birthday)—possibly fodder to head-canons about why Rarity so very clearly wishes to be quite, quite different from them.


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Postby Tears (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:30 pm

Wayoshi wrote:
Image



Image


Reference y/n :flutterdear:
Image
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An appalling piece of pimpwork or a thoroughly botched token of sincerity
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:56 pm

Sweetie Belle knows as well as we do the story behind Rarity acquiring her cutie mark: doing the dresses for a school play (also: gems).

So this was a rather blatant attempt of one-upping her sister by writing, directing, acting, and costuming a play at a real venue.

The CMC are not good at baby steps.
In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
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Wide-ruled paper is for foals.
Rarity's Roughnecks
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:02 pm

This is one of the most emotionally intense (and emotionally satisfying) episodes of the whole series so far. :cooliebelle:

Best retelling of A Christmas Carol? :wat:

Also confirmation that Luna is so totally over her old quarrel with Celestia, being instructive and composed as she shows her lesson to one who suffers as she once did. She's probably happy to have done this for Sweetie Belle.
:moonie:

Minty wrote:I think we know where Spike is learning his manners:
Image

Image

:allears:


Kind kid cultivates compassion frequently from gracious guardian. :spike101:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:27 pm

Amethyst_Gem wrote:Best retelling of A Christmas Carol? :wat:


That would either go to The Muppets Christmas Carol or this version:



But still, it's a really unique adaptation of that kind of story.
:plonk: Image :)
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Round and round and round she goes, where she'll stop, nobody knows :pinkietoot:
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:49 pm

Niels Olof wrote:Sweetie Belle knows as well as we do the story behind Rarity acquiring her cutie mark: doing the dresses for a school play (also: gems).

So this was a rather blatant attempt of one-upping her sister by writing, directing, acting, and costuming a play at a real venue.

The CMC are not good at baby steps.


Well shit. I didn't think about it that way. :starity:
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:twonk:
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