S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

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Re: S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

Postby ZamuelNow (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:44 am

The Doctor wrote:Afro Pony was wearing a wig...

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Err, not necessarily. Wearing a headband with an afro is a valid way of styling the hair, though less common than just wearing it out. I'm actually incredibly pleased to see a character with that on the show.

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While I still think there's some interesting issues with the continuity on the show, I do like that it seems to be rebelling against its format. Or perhaps somewhere around Season 3 the format just outright changed.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:46 am

Yeah, I'd say the format changed right around the third act of the thirteenth episode of the third season. :-I
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:11 am

Here's a scene that didn't work for me, which also is emblematic of why I found this episode kind of bleh.

So Sweetie sez to Rarity, "It's my fifth birthday party all over again!" That's perfect. That sums it all up right there. Everybody has some incident from their past that they can't get over; everybody has something that they've forgotten about which is a big deal to other people. And Rarity and Sweetie are believable as the characters to have long, vindictive memories like that. It works, and I was thinking "Hail Polsky -- using one line of dialogue to convey what other shows would handle with a flashback scene."

Then, flashback scene. But wait, it's not that bad, it's actually fairly nuanced. Rarity's not being mean, but she is kind of hogging the spotlight. And no, she doesn't know Sweetie is hanging out on the stairs, but she probably shouldn't be showing off the party favors anyway, not without Sweetie around. But it's hardly a hanging offense, and I can see how Rarity's center-of-attention instincts would lead her to show off her work at the wrong time even though there's zero malice attached. And I can see how Sweetie would ascribe malice to Rarity's center-of-attention instincts anyway, because it's her fucking birthday. Hail Polsky -- crafting a complex scene in which both parties' readings of the situation are "right." That's like, life, man.

Then, flashback scene redux. We get the same dialogue delivered twice (which was also annoying in It's About Time) and haha of course there's no nuance. Rarity was trying to save Sweetie from mean fillies all along! That's how you can tell she loves Sweetie! She couldn't have loved Sweetie just as much under a scenario in which she wasn't painted as a saint, because that would be like, complicated and shit. And all of this is delivered by Luna as a charisma-free Jacob Marley.

Listen, this episode wasn't bad, I'm just being an asshole because I do that. But for me this episode was like being excited to go over to your friend's house because his family is cool and funny, and then when you get there his mom makes you all sit around the table and play Bible Trivia. :-/
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:21 am

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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:38 am

This episode got me to rewatch this scene, so it's all right in my book :gotcha:



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Postby Minty (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:04 am

I hope there are more Sapphire Shores/Rarity interactions in the future. They're the greatest.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:06 am

PictishBeast wrote:Then, flashback scene redux. We get the same dialogue delivered twice (which was also annoying in It's About Time) and haha of course there's no nuance. Rarity was trying to save Sweetie from mean fillies all along! That's how you can tell she loves Sweetie! She couldn't have loved Sweetie just as much under a scenario in which she wasn't painted as a saint, because that would be like, complicated and shit. And all of this is delivered by Luna as a charisma-free Jacob Marley.

And I wonder if both were for the same reason - to make sure the kids would understand the key plot points, because both were the critical moments of the episodes.

In any case, here... you're kinda extrapolating, aren't you? I don't see how her saving Sweetie's guests makes Rarity a "saint" and loses all the nuanced characterization. :rariwhat:
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Postby The Outlander (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:16 am

Yeah, I think all that scene does is make the nuanced characterization clearer. Sure, leaving it up to the viewer to figure out what happened will always result in our imaginations being better than the real thing, but I think it was smart to clear things up for the kids watching. It didn't necessarily take anything away from the experience anyway, it's just a matter of opportunity cost.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:20 am

It does go on a little long and I'm not wild about every line being repeated and not a single bit elided for brevity; but I think it works leagues better than It's About Time (where it felt like pure lazy time-filler that I've never been able to come up with a satisfying excuse for).
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:49 am

Wayoshi wrote:In any case, here... you're kinda extrapolating, aren't you? I don't see how her saving Sweetie's guests makes Rarity a "saint" and loses all the nuanced characterization.


Because without the unnecessary flashback redux, you're left to conclude that Rarity's motivation for showing off the party favors was to say "look at me," just a little. And that's a character flaw. A tiny one, but a realistic and relatable character flaw. Sweetie has every right to be pissed off at that, which would make her forgiveness and reconciliation with Rarity in this episode that much more powerful.

Am I expecting too much character nuance from a kids show? Err yeah almost certainly, but from a kids perspective it's almost worse. Flashback redux is saying "forgive your siblings, because maybe when they're being jerks they're actually secretly working behind the scenes to do something awesome for you!" instead of "forgive your siblings because they're people too." :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:59 am

The repeated scene in It's About Time was better in my opinion because the scene tied off both ends of the episode. Sure, it's the exact same scene, but you might've missed or forgotten details since the first time it played, since there was kind of an entire episode between them. Plus, now that you know the whole story, you get a chance to review the whole scene and fill in the mystery - instead of trying to piece together Twi's mysterious, ominous message, the viewer can fully appreciate the comedic context of the situation. It also actually occurs chronologically at both points in the story, which justifies it, like, actually happening again.

The use of repeated scene in this episode, though, doesn't work as well for me. It's too short, and doesn't really establish much of anything... I guess it's because it's pretty much exactly the same. Not just the words and animation, but the total feel of the scene is, either way, 'Rarity gives free stuff to keep kids happy, Sweetie Belle doesn't like it'.

I think the scene here could have used an overhaul to actually establish Rarity as antagonistic in Sweetie Belle's mind, because, while I know we're supposed to think Sweetie Belle is irrational, they should have had it shown more from her point of view - maybe have Rarity seem spiteful or vain something the first time to demonstrate how Sweetie saw her, and that would give us incentive to see the scene again because we'd know Rarity is not like that. As it is, let's face it - Rarity's behavior was downright modest compared to how she gets when she really wants attention, so we're not really given much incentive to see the scene from a different perspective. We already know Sweetie's acting irrationally, we already know that Rarity's innocent, and the whole flashback scene accidentally kinda sorta establishes that the first iteration, so there's little reason - at least emotionally - to bother watching the second iteration. It's About Time did repeat the whole scene, but like I mentioned before, the first time it was mysterious while the second time it was entirely comedic, once you understand just how anticlimactic Future Twi's context is; in this episode, Sweetie's flashback did nothing to change the way I viewed Rarity's actions or Sweetie's reaction.
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Postby Venusy (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:09 am

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
That would really make Inception very difficult...


For anyone other than Luna. :tinfoil:
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 6:25 am

PictishBeast wrote:
Am I expecting too much character nuance from a kids show? Err yeah almost certainly, but from a kids perspective it's almost worse. Flashback redux is saying "forgive your siblings, because maybe when they're being jerks they're actually secretly working behind the scenes to do something awesome for you!" instead of "forgive your siblings because they're people too." :pinkieshrug:


Or maybe it was "not everything is how you first see it, sometimes you need to talk and explore your anger rather than hold a grudge."
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Postby Tears (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 9:04 am

Foxfyre wrote:The use of repeated scene in this episode, though, doesn't work as well for me. It's too short, and doesn't really establish much of anything... I guess it's because it's pretty much exactly the same. Not just the words and animation, but the total feel of the scene is, either way, 'Rarity gives free stuff to keep kids happy, Sweetie Belle doesn't like it'.


Yeah, I get your point on that, that it doesn't provide any big revelations. I guess it's for Sweetie to come to that realisation, and I'm trying to think of how else they could have accomplished that. Have Luna tell her? Just make a different scene, maybe.

I do probably prefer the flashback in this so though because it's not so much of a focus, whereas bookend IaT with flashbacks let me know the whole episode was going to be about how Twilight had... womp-womp-womp... misunderstood the situation.

But that's just down to personal taste though, I liked your post :allears:



PictishBeast wrote:
Because without the unnecessary flashback redux, you're left to conclude that Rarity's motivation for showing off the party favors was to say "look at me," just a little. And that's a character flaw. A tiny one, but a realistic and relatable character flaw. Sweetie has every right to be pissed off at that, which would make her forgiveness and reconciliation with Rarity in this episode that much more powerful.

Am I expecting too much character nuance from a kids show? Err yeah almost certainly, but from a kids perspective it's almost worse. Flashback redux is saying "forgive your siblings, because maybe when they're being jerks they're actually secretly working behind the scenes to do something awesome for you!" instead of "forgive your siblings because they're people too." :pinkieshrug:


Yeah but siblings and people and their foibles doesn't preclude them ever doing anything nice. I mean I wouldn't cross the street for my younger sister (j/k sis! Haaaa I hope you aren't reading this) but if her friends were being dicks about her then I'd probably say something. Maybe.

Like, we've seen Rarity behave in a flawed way to her sis a bunch of times - Sisterhooves obviously, and the loving exploitation of Sweetie in Sleepless, and putting in an instance of Rarity being nice back in the day (which amounted to handing out party favours and saying one nice thing about Sweetie Belle) doesn't erase all the times Rarity's been thoughtless or self-absorbed or impatient with Sweetie, and I don't think it's supposed to.
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Postby Venusy (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:13 am

Even with the correction, Rarity did the right thing but in a flawed way. She presumably knew where Sweetie was, yet didn't attempt to call her down or even glance at the stairs occasionally. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:31 am

Venusy wrote:Even with the correction, Rarity did the right thing but in a flawed way. She presumably knew where Sweetie was, yet didn't attempt to call her down or even glance at the stairs occasionally. :pinkieshrug:


Calling down a lady, however young, getting prepped would be terribly uncouth. Rarity did the right thing, and Sweetie Belle could have, I dunno, called attention to herself. Had she done so though, I think she would have been traumatized for other reasons... Her friends seemed a rather critical lot.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 11:35 am

At the same time, it's still rude to prance around looking for attention from your own party guests like that. The fact that Rarity didn't call Sweetie Belle down there is kind of a flaw of Rarity's in and of itself.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:00 pm

I'd actually argue that Rarity not calling Sweetie Belle was so that she could have her grand entrance she wanted. If Rarity called Sweetie Belle down, Sweetie Belle would have yelled something like "I'm coming!" Then shortly appeared, everypony expecting. By Rarity not calling, she most likely wanted Sweetie Belle to have her grand entrance, however she wanted to set it up.

Which makes me curious, as Rarity was unaware what Sweetie Belle was referring to, she probably didn't lock herself in her room all day, but she probably did wipe off the makeup. But then how did she re-enter for her party?
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:35 pm

ShieldedDiamond wrote:
Which makes me curious, as Rarity was unaware what Sweetie Belle was referring to, she probably didn't lock herself in her room all day, but she probably did wipe off the makeup. But then how did she re-enter for her party?


Rarity not recalling the birthday would suggest to me that it was a largely unremarkable event (what, six-seven years ago? I have no idea how I celebrated my own birthday seven years ago), so I'd posit that Sweetie Belle wiped off the makeup (along with her indignant tears), and came down. Surely, Rarity would have remembered that makeup, if nothing else :wat:
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:11 pm

Pretty enjoyable episode. The characterization was spot on, it had an interesting dilemma, and the visuals were indeed top-notch. Dream-walker Luna was also really good here. I don't think this did as much for me as others, but I liked it nonetheless.

I kind of agree the fifth birthday party bit was off.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:47 pm

Shouldn't this be S04E19 and not S04E20 like the title says? :squintyjack:
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Postby Doctor Wheeze (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:50 pm

Octavia wrote:Shouldn't this be S04E19 and not S04E20 like the title says? :squintyjack:

Production order :spike101: For whatever reason, they pushed episode 19 back.
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Postby Venusy (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:03 pm

I still stand by my opinion that production order is fine for the spoiler threads, but we really should use broadcast order for the actual episode threads. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:05 pm

Huh...that's something that hasn't happened in a while either. How many times has that happened in total with the show so far?
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:06 pm

Does iTunes list this episode as episode 19 or 20? That, and whatever number is used in the blurb in TV descriptions in reruns, will likely be the number we most closely associate with this episode in the future.
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Postby Doctor Wheeze (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:16 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:Huh...that's something that hasn't happened in a while either. How many times has that happened in total with the show so far?

I remember they moved Hearth's Warming Eve to be closer to Christmas (and maybe Hearts and Hooves Day to be closer to Valentines Day? I don't remember), and they moved Games Ponies Play to air the week after Just for Sidekicks (production order has it after Keep Calm). Don't know why they moved 19, the synopsis doesn't sound particularly time sensitive :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:38 pm

Pinkie Pride and Three's a Crowd also got swapped, possibly to have Pinkie Pride airing on the same weekend as the Super Bowl. (Curiously, Pinkie Pride had some of the lowest Saturday morning ratings for this whole season.)
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:40 pm

Really? Even with Weird Al making an appearance and the episode being extremely hyped up?
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:43 pm

I think the hyping up is what killed it. Considering the following episode was barely mentioned and got a higher viewership then PP, I think it would've been better for the episode if they layed off the "WE GOT WEIRD AL" hype.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 3:47 pm

To be fair to the promoters, it was kind of a big deal that MLP got such a high profile guest to do the show. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:04 pm

In all fairness, are there that many people of the target audience who knows who Weird Al is?
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

...When you think about it, probably not. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby ThunderBunny (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:18 pm

Sometimes a gimmick aimed at parents can be as good a way to boost ratings for a kids' show as any. Though I have absolutley no clue how many parents watch mlp with their kids, so that's just speculation.
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:23 pm

:ponder: I wonder if there's a possibility that Weird Al guest staring on MLP was such a shock and felt out of place to enough parents that they didn't want their kids to watch it.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:34 pm

But Weird Al, at least as far as I know, isn't a controversial person or anything. If a parent saw him, knowing who he was, I don't really see much of a reason why not to let a child watch a show where he plays a role. Would there be?
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:45 pm

ShieldedDiamond wrote:But Weird Al, at least as far as I know, isn't a controversial person or anything. If a parent saw him, knowing who he was, I don't really see much of a reason why not to let a child watch a show where he plays a role. Would there be?


He's not controversial, but he may be perceived as too adult for some parents. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:10 pm

Octavia wrote:Shouldn't this be S04E19 and not S04E20 like the title says? :squintyjack:

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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:45 pm

Discord wrote:
He's not controversial, but he may be perceived as too adult for some parents. :pinkieshrug:


Eh, I don't see how anyone can think that... I'm pretty sure he put out a children's album at one point and has written several children's books.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:53 pm

Weird Al is about as family-friendly as you can get. He doesn't swear in any of his songs or really do anything that would be considered too adult for someone over the age of 7. I think a bigger reason why the ratings on the episode were so low is that it was leaked early. Since it was such a highly-awaited episode, a ton of people watched it before it aired.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:57 pm

Perhaps if nobody knew Weird Al would appear, it would have been rated better?
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