S06E05: Gauntlet of Fire

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Re: S06E05: Gauntlet of Fire

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:15 am

I'd just got finished telling myself that the show seems to have lost track of how to be a) funny and b) inventive the way it was back in the old days; and then here comes this episode which is both!

I giggled out loud at "I never thought I'd say this, but I hope that burping dragon wins". And then I got pulled away and had to come back, and I rewound the episode a few seconds to re-seat myself, and Rarity said "I never thought I'd say this, but I hope that burping dragon wins" and I giggled even harder :gotcha:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:16 am

Strangepony wrote:This episode really played havoc with the question of whether Equestria is a nation or planet.

The big guy calls them the "dragons of Equestria," but at the end, Spike says his home is "back in Equestria." :cuckoo:

Make up your mind!


Not only that, the dragons mention "Ponyland" at the end. Just to shake things up a bit I guess :-P
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:18 am

Dragon Lord Torch: Unfortunately, according to dragon law, it is time for me to step down. Sad, I know. [beat] Be sad!
[dragons crying]


PLEASE CLAP
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:19 am

Wayoshi wrote:They seemed to lampshade/ignore this entirely:

My head canon is that the Dragon Lord has a magical control over other dragons but that magic will fade regardless if he steps down or not. Making his refusal to step down pointless. Maybe that is why they want the youngest dragons so it has the longest effect possible?
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:29 am

Niels Olof wrote:Image

This dragon. This dragon is awesome.


This gag was great. So was Garble hugging Torch (and not being able to say WTF).

Really I'm impressed as hell with the writers' work on this. They fleshed out dragon society a ton (even if it kind of retcons the way a lot of it felt in the Dragon Quest era, which really they kind of had to do unless they were prepared to all dragons become monstrous and all but non-verbal as they age; "But that rainbow one kicked me" was a gag that worked only in that you'd been led to believe that adult dragons can't even talk at all, and Secret of My Excess does nothing to take away from that theory); and they wove a thread of pony-style friendship lessoning all throughout it in a way that felt effortless and natural.

True, it was fairly obvious that Ember would end up being the dragonlord; but I was surprised that Spike actually got the scepter first and got to be DRAGON LORD SPIKE and would have been able to keep it too if he'd so chosen. That was a badass move.

Just in general dragon society had a really interesting texture. A lot more permissive and lackadaisical than I would have imagined, extrapolating from the S1/S2 dragons. Their tyrannical rules are delivered tongue-in-cheek and can be circumvented without any blowback (e.g. flying to the island); the dragon lord willingly steps down after some unspecified amount of time just because; Ember can browbeat her dad into backing down, and she can even jokingly imitate his schtick and get away with it. Even Twilight and Rarity sneaking into the sacred wherever seems to be handled with smirks and raised eyebrows rather than murder. In short dragon society isn't quite as metal as we'd been led to believe—it seems like they consciously attempt to present that front to outsiders, but the deeper you get into their culture the more it seems they stay teenagers forever.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:32 am

Strangepony wrote:This episode really played havoc with the question of whether Equestria is a nation or planet.

The big guy calls them the "dragons of Equestria," but at the end, Spike says his home is "back in Equestria." :cuckoo:

Make up your mind!


As far as we know, Equestria is a nation, but we also know that at least *some* dragons live in "mainland" Equestria.

I guess the bit we really don't know is where Equestria's borders lie. Is Yakyakistan a region within Equestria? Would the Yaks recognise it as being so? How about the Griffons? Their land is connected via rails, which we can only assume were laid by ponies.

The Dragon homeland is the only area on the map not connected by either rails or a land bridge (as far as we've been shown on a map), so are they a special case?

Many mysteries yet to be solved.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:33 am

Was talking about the episode, and something hit me. Something that makes me think I may have been overly harsh on some of the writers for how they've treated Spike in the past.

Spike in this episode was extremely mature and competent. Scarily so for his age. Gets challenged to become the Dragon Lord? He immediately points out that he doesn't want to become the Dragon Lord, and decides to go back home. Ponies in danger? Spike decides to ignore the risk to himself and the possibility he'll have to leave his friends in order to protect them. Swims to the island when he can't fly, saves a drowning dragon, then when Garble gets crushed by a rock, Spike saves him (demonstrating a lot of strength in the process). Pretty much single handedly sells Princess Ember on the concept of friendship.

Which was great, don't get me wrong, and it's not out of character for Spike either; he's often the cool and straightheaded one in episodes that aren't about him, like when he notified Celestia in lesson zero, or the one that always keeps Twilight on track/remembers her old friends when she doesn't. But if it becomes a constant thing, then I think it makes the mane 6 look pretty bad beside him. Well, except maybe AJ, who shares Spike's role as the rational thinker and straight-pony.

Eh, maybe I'm overthinking this, but I can't help but think if the writers always treat Spike this way, it'll be kind of unpleasant having the much younger male character be so much more mature than most of the show's supposedly adult female characters. At the very least, it does make me appreciate all those past Spike episodes a little more; yeah, it seems like he gets demoted to inept comic relief with every one, but part of that is just because he was written so competently/as an adult instead of a kid in many episodes that weren't about him.

PaulloDEC wrote:
As far as we know, Equestria is a nation, but we also know that at least *some* dragons live in "mainland" Equestria.

I guess the bit we really don't know is where Equestria's borders lie. Is Yakyakistan a region within Equestria? Would the Yaks recognise is as being so? How about the Griffons? Their land is connected via rails, which we can only assume were laid by ponies.

The Dragon homeland is the only area on the map not connected by either rails or a land bridge (as far as we've been shown on a map), so are they a special case?

Many mysteries yet to be solved.


Actually, five year comment coming back, in Dragonshy Applejack asks "What is a full grown dragon doing in Equestria?"

Which maps perfectly to this episode, where the Dragon Lord calls them the dragons of Equestria but they're all kids.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:49 am

PaulloDEC wrote:As far as we know, Equestria is a nation, but we also know that at least *some* dragons live in "mainland" Equestria.

:twiright: We ponies live in Equèstria, the nation. Dragons live in Équestría, the continent. It's completely different.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:51 am

SlateSlabrock wrote: :twiright: We ponies live in Equèstria, the nation. Dragons live in Équestría, the continent. It's completely different.


:prettywings: Everything the light touches is our Kingdom.

:delight: And I can put the light over anything I want!
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:46 am

Re: griffons -

Daring Do wrote:
I think Twilight said in Bridle Gossip they come from a distant land, though (which is probably what Mechanical Ape was talking about). So I guess they have their own kingdom/empire/whathaveyou, not just a town in Equestria.

...Unlike the griffons, who by this point I'm feeling are part of Equestria. I looked past the griffons at the Equestria Games and Twilight's line in Lost Treasure, so that I could imagine the griffons having a vast country of their own. But with this too... It's too much evidence against the idea. Might also explain why the rail line goes there.


("this too" being a griffon delegate in Princess Spike)
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:10 am

Daring Do wrote:Re: griffons -



("this too" being a griffon delegate in Princess Spike)


Both the Griffons and the Zebras get some decent backstory in the Journal of the Two Sisters. The Zebras live in a vaguely African environment that is apparently accessed via the Everfree Forest. The way the book describes it implies there's something strange about the method of getting there, which fits with the fact that there's no real space for large grasslands-style environment in that area. Perhaps there's a portal to the "Undiscovered West" in the Everfree? In any case, the Zebras basically have no experience at all with ponies, suggesting they've been doing their own thing for as long as they've been around.

The Griffons on the other hand have a hostile past with Equestria, having fought for airspace with the Pegasi prior to Equestria, and even again shortly after Celestia and Luna took over. The way the book talks about them suggests they don't see themselves as part of Equestria exactly, but they do at least have peace treaties in place. Other episodes of the show have suggested there's been a bit of intermingling between the two races over time, which would explain the train station leading near, but not to, Griffonstone.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:22 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
Both the Griffons and the Zebras get some decent backstory in the Journal of the Two Sisters. The Zebras live in a vaguely African environment that is apparently accessed via the Everfree Forest. The way the book describes it implies there's something strange about the method of getting there, which fits with the fact that there's no real space for large grasslands-style environment in that area. Perhaps there's a portal to the "Undiscovered West" in the Everfree? In any case, the Zebras basically have no experience at all with ponies, suggesting they've been doing their own thing for as long as they've been around.

The Griffons on the other hand have a hostile past with Equestria, having fought for airspace with the Pegasi prior to Equestria, and even again shortly after Celestia and Luna took over. The way the book talks about them suggests they don't see themselves as part of Equestria exactly, but they do at least have peace treaties in place. Other episodes of the show have suggested there's been a bit of intermingling between the two races over time, which would explain the train station leading near, but not to, Griffonstone.


Yeah, I've read the journal. A lot can change in a thousand years, though, so the griffons might've ended up joining. I mean, the Unicorn Kingdom doesn't look to be around anymore, and that was definitely still a thing at the time of the journal. The griffon leader guy in the journal wasn't even a king.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:36 am

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TIME FOR PONIES
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:42 am

Daring Do wrote:
Yeah, I've read the journal. A lot can change in a thousand years, though, so the griffons might've ended up joining. I mean, the Unicorn Kingdom doesn't look to be around anymore, and that was definitely still a thing at the time of the journal. The griffon leader guy in the journal wasn't even a king.


The impression I got during Season 5 was that the Griffons always kept Equestria at arms length; don't forget that all the crap with Arimaspi stealing the idol and Griffonstone falling into ruin went down without Equestria at large even knowing, and that was at least a few years ago, more likely a lot of years.

I'm guessing the Unicorn kingdom ultimately got folded into Celestia and Luna's greater management of the nation. Prince Blueblood is a guy that exists, so I presumably there's still some traces of it floating around Canterlot.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:50 am

This was pretty much what I was hoping for. Some cringey dialogue but, well what you gonna do? Most everything I might say has been touched upon, so I'll say I hope we do get to see Ember and more dragons in the future.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:17 am

I actually thought the dialogue was one of the strongest points to this episode. It was unusually self-aware; little lines like "Heh heh, I'm funny" and "I, uh, robbed some ponies on my way over here" so on. It did a better job with the multi-layered texture than a lot of recent episodes I could name (Gift of the Maud Pie for example).
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:18 am

Yeah, I didn't find the dialogue very cringe worthy. I thought it worked well. I loved Spike's "Well, this dragon does" when told Dragons don't do friends. He's totally unashamed of who he is.
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Postby JaneCV (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:07 am

Reaction: "Oh no Spike is the dragon lord now and leaving the show, they're finally actually ending FiM :twonk:"

A few seconds later: "Nevermind..."
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:10 am

I only now got to see it and wish I hadn't missed it live! :twonk: Great stuff again, and it was nice to finally get to see more of dragon society that didn't feel quite so bland as what we saw in Dragon Quest. I'll have to post more once I'm back home, but for now, here's one point I want to make:
Swift wrote:Ember is a really cool new character, and I like her design a lot! However, the whole "Let's be friends! Friendship is awesome!" vs. "'Friendship'? I do not understand this concept and have no need of it" back-and-forth was a bit simplistic and perhaps too similar to the Griffons.

My take on Ember was that she didn't really believe what she was saying. That is to say, I think she clearly had different ideas on friendship and cooperation, but she'd never had much chance to express them due to living under her father such as she did. I'm basing that on how she sounded when she was saying that, since to me she sounded merely disinterested and bored, whereas Gilda sounded like she'd genuinely been hurt when Pinkie Pie met her again back in S5.
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Postby Doctor Wheeze (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:22 am

Pleasantly surprised by this one. Princess Ember was super cute, and I think that carried the episode for me a lot :3: And hey, Spike actually gets some shit done. Rarity and Twilight's goofy costumes were great, too. Much much better than Dragon Quest.

My only real complaint: at the end during the fight, it took me out of it a little that Twilight didn't at least stop Spike falling off the bridge. I can see her being hands-off the rest of the time in the interest of politics/science, but not when Spike is in mortal danger.

Adelor Lyon wrote:Image

Yup. Pretty cool there, DHX animators. :crack:


This season has been super good with the details, the animators and storyboard artists have just been knocking it out of the park :awesomedash:
ImageImageImageImageImage
..... :hatte:
:dreamworks:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:30 am

Wayoshi wrote:My guess is Lewis/Songco didn't really know how much of a gag Crackle was back in the days of S2, and it was up to Jim & DHX to get him in there a couple times. Kudos to that at least.

Image

Image

On the contrary, I think they knew quite well about the gag, and thus pointedly avoided making an on-the-nose reference to it here. Would it really have been funny if we got another joke about Crackle looking ridiculous and acting weird?
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:07 pm

My guess is the writers must have toyed with having Crackle win the scepter. :v:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 1:19 pm

Crackle has the girl-dragon eyelashes. She should have been the Dragon Princess.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:18 pm

Really fun, enjoyable episode and I loved all the new dragon designs. The best Spike episode we've had in a while.
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:39 pm

A good effort, probably Spike's best episode to date, for me.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:00 pm

MurdER_weapOn '78 wrote:A good effort, probably Spike's best episode to date, for me.


Agreed. Spike actually felt like himself instead of a complete moron like he tends to become in episodes where he's the focus. Though I might say I still like Power Ponies better as far as Spike episodes go. This was a good one.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:09 pm

Master_Twig wrote:
Agreed. Spike actually felt like himself instead of a complete moron like he tends to become in episodes where he's the focus. Though I might say I still like Power Ponies better as far as Spike episodes go. This was a good one.

Eh, I didn't much like that as far as Spike went, largely since what he did didn't matter much on account of Maretropolis and the Mane-iac only existing as part of a comic book series. The general goofiness present there also kind of took away from the message of the Mane Six caring about Spike, since if he could only help in the world of a comic book, what good was that? Equestria Games did that much better, I think, especially since his heroics there have been remembered (see The Crystalling and how the crystal ponies happily mentioned it in the same breath as him saving the Crystal Heart).
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:29 pm

One thing I wish this episode had done...

Age Spike up a bit. He gets that scepter and it changes him, and keep him changed. Make him a bit taller or something, maybe like Egophiliac did in Life of Pony Life.

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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:44 pm

I still think the first Equestria Girls movie was Spike's best performance as a character. He was cool, calm, collected, and served as Twilight's anchor in what must've been a very uncomfortable and unnerving situation for her. As a character, she'd just sprouted wings, became a princess, and was starting to worry a lot about "new responsibilities" and even possibly "running a new kingdom" of her own, and now some weirdo from a mirror just stole one of the most powerful relics in Equestria. Spike's insight and perspective were exactly what she needed at that time, and he did a stellar job helping her out. It's a shame we don't see that side of him more often. Given that he's a "baby dragon" and doesn't have a lot of leadership experience it's arguable that it was out of character for Spike, but so was "Spike at Your Service." Whatevs: We all tend to pick and choose what we like about the characters from episode to episode to build up who we think each character really is, and if this dynamic was to change over time I think it would be neat if Spike was to transition to a more learned and moderate adviser character for Twilight along with the just previously mentioned physical changes. Make him a bit taller, sure, but really: It's time for wings. It's not like the show's never done that kind of thing before.

As long as we're on that topic, let me quickly throw out the idea that Apple Bloom actively being mentored by Zecora would be a pretty cool character arc. We've seen them work together in many, many episodes all the way back to season 1 and 2.

But then, this isn't Game of Thrones. The writers and producers have said the show's representation of each character is flexible from episode to episode because it's not a super detailed planned out show like Game of Thrones is. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Marimo (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:08 pm

The Doctor wrote:One thing I wish this episode had done...

Age Spike up a bit. He gets that scepter and it changes him, and keep him changed. Make him a bit taller or something, maybe like Egophiliac did in Life of Pony Life.

Image

Nothing about the scepter would suggest it ages you up or makes you grow. I mean if it did, then Ember would have also grown more once she got the scepter and that feels like it would kind of go against what she was trying to prove. That she didn't need size to get through the challenge, so it would be kind of backwards to end with "It looks like you didn't need to be big to prove you're strong and smart enough to be leader. But now that you're leader, you're going to have to be big anyway."
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:09 pm

The Doctor wrote:One thing I wish this episode had done...

Age Spike up a bit. He gets that scepter and it changes him, and keep him changed. Make him a bit taller or something, maybe like Egophiliac did in Life of Pony Life.

Image

Spike as a little kid is adorable and it's sort of his 'thing' to be able to ride twilight's back. But I wouldn't mind if he got a bit of a growth spurt at some point.
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:21 pm

And a legit one, not dragon puberty due to greed
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:46 pm

Ransom wrote:Spike as a little kid is adorable and it's sort of his 'thing' to be able to ride twilight's back. But I wouldn't mind if he got a bit of a growth spurt at some point.

I'd like for it to happen too, now or possibly if we get a seventh season, just as I was hoping for with the CMC as well. All the kids (and the adults!) have done a lot of growing up between S1 and now, so I think they're deserving of having that reflected in their appearance as well as their behavior.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:25 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote: :twiright: We ponies live in Equèstria, the nation. Dragons live in Équestría, the continent. It's completely different.


It feels like an America joke.

:awesomedash: "Where are you from?"

:delight: "America."

:awesomedash: "Oh, where are you from?"

:allright: "Canada."

:awesomedash: "Where is that?"

:allright: "North America."

:awesomedash: "So, you are from America too?"

:allright: "No, Canada."

:awkward: "So... where are you from?"

:speakest: "Mexico."

:awesomedash: "Where is that?"

:speakest: "North America."

:bwuh: "So you are from Canada then?"

:unenthused: "No, I said I'm from Mexico."

:bwuh: "Wait, didn't you say you were from America?"

:delight: "Yes, America is in North America as well."

:offendash:

I'm so posting this in the emote story topic as well.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:45 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:The general goofiness present there also kind of took away from the message of the Mane Six caring about Spike, since if he could only help in the world of a comic book, what good was that? Equestria Games did that much better, I think, especially since his heroics there have been remembered (see The Crystalling and how the crystal ponies happily mentioned it in the same breath as him saving the Crystal Heart).

You're right on the latter point, but I think Power Ponies mattered to Spike. Even in real life, he's the sidekick who didn't get to help or have phenomenal cosmic powers an Element of Harmony a glowy butt-stamp.

He's very proud of saving the Crystal Empire because now that's the one time he's clearly been the hero.

Adelor Lyon wrote:I still think the first Equestria Girls movie was Spike's best performance as a character. He was cool, calm, collected, and served as Twilight's anchor in what must've been a very uncomfortable and unnerving situation for her. As a character, she'd just sprouted wings, became a princess, and was starting to worry a lot about "new responsibilities" and even possibly "running a new kingdom" of her own, and now some weirdo from a mirror just stole one of the most powerful relics in Equestria. Spike's insight and perspective were exactly what she needed at that time, and he did a stellar job helping her out. It's a shame we don't see that side of him more often. Given that he's a "baby dragon" and doesn't have a lot of leadership experience it's arguable that it was out of character for Spike, but so was "Spike at Your Service."

I think the important point here is that Spike is often a great assistant. It's neat seeing him handle Twilight's moods and knowing when to send a discreet call for help to Celestia. But those stories aren't about him, so it's hard to keep up that act and give Spike his own character development. He can't always be the perfectly calm butler, or else there's no room for growth. See also: Applejack.

This episode made Spike very competent, and I'd argue that's because it was mostly a Princess Ember story. She needed to learn about friendship, and Spike was the perfect teacher. He doesn't struggle with giving up the promise of power, or the insecurity of beating the other dragons, or a lack of knowledge about dragon culture. He's a catalyst.

Marimo wrote:Nothing about the scepter would suggest it ages you up or makes you grow. I mean if it did, then Ember would have also grown more once she got the scepter and that feels like it would kind of go against what she was trying to prove. That she didn't need size to get through the challenge, so it would be kind of backwards to end with "It looks like you didn't need to be big to prove you're strong and smart enough to be leader. But now that you're leader, you're going to have to be big anyway."

You're right that it probably would've muddied the message they were trying to send. I wonder if that's why they had the ZAP effect from the scepter, so they could come back to it later on and say, "It's just Spike's time to start growing up, too."
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:38 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:I'd like for it to happen too, now or possibly if we get a seventh season, just as I was hoping for with the CMC as well. All the kids (and the adults!) have done a lot of growing up between S1 and now, so I think they're deserving of having that reflected in their appearance as well as their behavior.

I suppose if we ever do get a spin off series or some full time skip (or the April Fools My Little Dragon joke becomes reality?), that might happen. I say this knowing absolutely nothing about future plans or how these things work.

Thing is, Spike as a tiny baby dragon goes all the way back to G1. It's sort of a big deal to deviate it for some I suspect.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:01 pm

Sorry to double post, but I did want to add, since I didn't see it, that while Twilight probably could have beaten Grable (although I think dragons are canonically quite powerful in MLP, they bath in lava), she took a page out of Celestia's handbook: Don't interfere when someone else is learning a lesson in friendship. It was better to let Ember save them. :twiright:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:11 pm

Especially not if that someone is just an older teenager and is also right in front of (or even could possibly be) a new ruler. Twilight's grasp of statecraft seems to have improved from where she was back in the events of Party Pooped.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:40 pm

Also, someone mentioned being disturbed that Twilight would let Spike fall to his death near the end of the episode, but she and Rarity get knocked over like bowling pins right when that happens.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:13 pm

It definitely felt like this episode brought back a lot mystery to the world again. It raises a lot of questions I'm curious to discover the answers too. I just want to know more about dragon culture at this point.
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