S04E14: Filli Vanilli

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Re: Let's Re-Watch Week 36: Filli Vanilli

Postby PictishBeast (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:27 am

One of my fave horse show episodes. I like the Pinkie scenes--it seems in-character to me that Pinkie's "operating on her own wavelength" POV can occasionally mean "accidentally is an asshole sometimes."

Rarity is good in this one too.

The only thing I don't like is this guy:

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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:41 am

PictishBeast wrote:The only thing I don't like is this guy:

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These two were always a little confusing for me. Are they a reference to something? They seemed really specifically designed to just be one-off background characters.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 1:52 am

Usually a design like that means "guy who works on the show" or "friend of somebody who works on the show" which usually isn't a good reason to screw with the design aesthetic of the show.

It's almost worse when it's someone famous, like "here's the guy from that cooking show but as a pony" because good shows have design aesthetics that aren't worth breaking for a gag. Obligatory Arthur:

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On the other hand, this ep has ponies in sweaters:

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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:02 am

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Glasses, beard, t-shirt, and weirdly-parted hair. Pick, like, ONE item from "unique traits rarely seen on ponies" if you really want to go there.

The character's name should have been Pony Creator.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:08 am

Bremen wrote:Definitely in the running for one of my favorite episodes of the series (and not just the season). Callbacks, character growth, and a fairly nuanced take on Fluttershy's fears (Rarity is understanding throughout, and at the end while Fluttershy has progressed a bit she doesn't instantly get over everything.)

I know a lot of people dislike Pinkie in this episode, and I can understand why, but I guess I'm quick to forgive when a character has to be written a certain way to drive the story. It was important that kids be able to get just what Fluttershy was afraid of, and Pinkie drove that home well. Even Fluttershy filled that same role when Rainbow was nervous about the Young Fliers competition :pinkieshrug:

I agree with all that. Pinkie Pie isn't exactly mature, after all, so even though she does want others to be happy, she's never been the most empathetic person out there (see also: A Friend In Deed). What she did was nasty, yes, but I don't think she intended to hurt Fluttershy.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:14 am

Pictish, you forgot "a build similar to Big Macintosh" on your list of oddities. Very few ponies have so much muscle, and all that do have had some important role in at least one episode.

I'll get to actually saying something later, but I will go off saying that this is definitely vying for a top spot. It only falls short from the #1 spot due to lacking enough music. Yes, you heard me. I think it needs more.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:22 am

I think my favorite aspect of this episode was the way that they managed to take an old Season 1 joke and turn into a whole episode - all without feeling insincere or "gimmicky." There were so many ways in which the episode could have felt forced or out-of-place. But as far as I'm concerned, it all just worked. I remember getting such a giddy feeling from watching this one. Like holy crap, they're using a gag from the early days of the show to solve a major plot point - and it's working out so beautifully! :allears: Because of that, this episode in particular gave me that special happy feeling that I can only get from ponies. Great music (and one of the catchiest numbers to boot), great story, and just an all-around wonderful episode!

And the Pinkie thing didn't bother me one bit. It's Pinkie, I love her no matter what! :pinkieshrug:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:27 am

Lots of nice songs in this episode, and while "Fluttershy is shy!" has been overdone, I still enjoyed this episode overall. Fluttershy's fears were realistic, her enthusiasm to help others showed off her kindness, and I do like the little moments with her and Rarity. Especially once Rarity "gets it" and knows Fluttershy is enjoying herself.

Negatives would be Pinkie Pie being a dick, and that little Pegasus pony with glasses. I don't know why, but I really disliked her. Probably that voice.

Also, Baby Steps everyone, Baby Steps. :gotcha:
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:39 am

Probably my favorite episode of season 4, in retrospect. Especially with the "baby steps" resolution at the end, which is plenty realistic for a character like Fluttershy.
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Postby Discord (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:45 am

This episode is one of my tops in the series and I really dislike how it portrays Pinkie.

My thing with this episode is Pinkie's antics don't really spoil the rest of it. Her questionable scenes probably comprise less than a tenth of the episode; is that really enough to overturn the tremendous charm of the rest? Not for me, anyway.

I mean, Pinkie isn't even really bad from a plot perspective either. People can brashly trigger people's sensitivities all the time, and Pinkie's actually not a bad character to have that happen to. It's just pushed a little too far for me, and rather than coming off as comedic due to cartoonish exaggeration, it comes off as uncomfortable and out of character for Pinkie. Pinkie can be callous, but not to this extent, and she usually has more awareness than this and will try to rectify mistakes more quickly (the recent at the time Pinkie Pride being a good example).

Still, the rest of this episode is really sweet, catchy, relatable, and enjoyable. I was actually humming "Find You've Got the Music" earlier today and I haven't seen this episode or heard the song in months. It's just so good. :yay:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:47 am

This isn't a Rarity episode but Rarity is good in this episode--she's good at reading people and knowing when to push Fluttershy and when to back off. (This is why the Pinkie scenes work for me--Pinkie has never been good at reading people.)

Also good:

1) The Ponytones aren't a pop group, they're a dorky a capella group wearing dorky bow ties which is exactly the kind of thing that would be popular in dorky horse world--and the writers thankfully never poke fun at this by having somebody (Dash, maybe) show up to snicker at them and ask hey where are the electric guitars or something.

2) Rarity is the leader of the Ponytones but it's not Rarity and the Ponytones; I feel like a crappier show would have set up a Diva vs. Usurper plotline.

3) Two of the Ponytones are new characters with names and good designs. A crappier show would have put Pinkie and Twilight in there instead because why not and we already have the assets. A crappier show written by bronies would have put Bulk Biceps and Derpy in there.

Nice little bit of animation:

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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:50 am

PictishBeast wrote:A crappier show written by bronies would have put Bulk Biceps and Derpy in there.

I didn't know that this fandom wrote Rainbow Falls :wat:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:58 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:I didn't know that this fandom wrote Rainbow Falls :wat:


One of the many strikes against Rainbow Falls.
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Postby InsertAuthorHere (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 4:57 am

This episode is my sixth favorite of Season Four, falling short of the top five only because of one certain pony.

The plot is basic Fluttershy material ("I am shy and learn not to be so shy"), but it's framed in such a way that it wraps around and becomes enjoyable. The decision to make the music a capella was brilliant; it makes the setting feel more special than generic rock or classical would have, while also exposing kids to a music style they probably aren't that familiar with, if at all. (A shame that only the first performance is without instruments, although that might have gotten boring during the montage.) Flutterguy coming back could have just been a dumb joke, but it was handled well and went away once the story no longer needed that voice. There were plenty of amusing moments, such as Applejack figuring out the whole plot after a long series of short questions and one-word answers.

The only problem is...Pinkie Pie. I have heard every possible explanation for her behavior this episode, and I can't accept any of them. Pinkie knows that Fluttershy is sensitive (as seen in Griffon the Brush-Off), and yet she continually breaks her anyway. The real problem, though, is that Pinkie is essentially responsible for almost every bad thing that happens this episode...and she feels nothing. She has to have others explain that yelling into a terrified person's face is a bad way to show admiration, and then immediately insults her again. She was even willing to do the same thing again at the end before Twilight pulled her away. So no, she doesn't get an excuse. She was badly written, plain and simple.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 5:08 am

Everyone focuses on the "Fluttershy is shy" plotline in regards to the music, and forgets that the whole reason the Ponytones are even there is to support the massive, town-wide pet adoption festival that Fluttershy's apparently not too shy to be in charge of.

Every episode that contains Rarity is a Rarity episode, of course. Just watch her interact with Fluttershy throughout this episode, it's a real treat to see her play along with Fluts at each of the different events.

Also, seeing Cheerilee "faint" at Big Mac's performance and then cut her eyes up to him with that "See what I did there?" grin was a great callback.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:01 am

Wylie wrote:Everyone focuses on the "Fluttershy is shy" plotline in regards to the music, and forgets that the whole reason the Ponytones are even there is to support the massive, town-wide pet adoption festival that Fluttershy's apparently not too shy to be in charge of.

This really only works because of Equestria Girls, since Fluttershy is originally seen handing out flyers to help out the animal shelter. When it comes to animals, she's not very shy at all.

Anyways, the music was top notch material. My only disappointment was that it was all so short. It would have been a lot nicer to make it into a full-sized number, but it's not too large of a downside.

The Ponytones make a nice group. Seeing Big Mac not just sing but sing in public was pretty awesome, and despite not saying much, he's revealed a wonderful voice. The same can be said of the new ponies, who I'd love to see again. They make for excellent supporting characters.

Anything I'm forgetting? Nah. If I am, it's not anything important.

Anyways, does this mean I get a cookie?
Dexanth wrote:1. Threads will go up on Thursdays! Re-watch day is Saturday. This is the new cookie as of week 32 times five.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:22 pm

Here's a thing I made last year

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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:22 pm

Episode was good. Some cute moments and a nice message at the end. Not much more I can say.

Also yeah, Pinkies "Colorful out-look on life" has always resulted in her treating characters terribly, all the way back to season one. At least here she was actually semi called out on it, which I can appreciate.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:32 pm

Strangest Letter wrote:Also yeah, Pinkies "Colorful out-look on life" has always resulted in her treating characters terribly, all the way back to season one. At least here she was actually semi called out on it, which I can appreciate.

This is actually something more Rainbow's style. Pinkie generally doesn't do this kind of thing whenever she knows it'd be hurtful, which is really why her behavior seemed a bit out of place.
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:41 pm

Not knowing when's she's being hurtful is kinda her problem, it's happened more than once (again, since the very first season) yet people never seemed to decry it then. :-/
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 9:57 pm

It's just a shtick that can be really overdone and get old, and I felt it was over the line here, especially because Pinkie's voice direction has gotten more screechy/annoying in general. Shame, I still really like her as a character, but she was SO hit or miss in season 4.

I like this episode a lot, still. Pinkie gets called out on being obnoxious, for one, and the storyline and interactions with Rarity and Fluttershy work really well. The episode also contains a bunch of smart and welldone callbacks, like Cheerilee's fainting and Flutterguy, and the plotline in general is a good take on another shyness problem. Good episode. :allears:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:04 pm

Oh right, this episode....

Pinkie discussions aside (I feel really strange that so many people don't like her lately. It makes me extremely sad and down. :deflated:) I liked it. Had some good moments and Flutterguy's new voice worked really well.
I am so sorry that you all don't like Pinkie lately and I hope that we still can remain friends despite this. I know that she seems shrill and such but I sincerely hope that she changes in S5 and you all can like her again.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:12 pm

Marioland1 wrote:This is actually something more Rainbow's style.


Rainbow would be rude to somebody and genuinely not care, convinced that she's just dropping truth bombs and that the other person should just toughen up already. Pinkie wouldn't get that far, cognitively--she'd just assume that everybody was thinking the same way she was thinking and be puzzled when they reacted unexpectedly.

Rainbow's motivations are more malicious, but also more complex/mature.

Perrydotto wrote:Pinkie's voice direction has gotten more screechy/annoying in general

Agreed

ROBOT B9 wrote:I feel really strange that so many people don't like her lately. It makes me extremely sad and down.

Are you kidding, I fing love Pinkie :party:
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:18 pm

I still like Pinkie, it just bothers me when people refer to this episode as her being badly written or more obnoxious compared to the rest of the show. Cause that's just flat out wrong. :-/
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Postby Applepie (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:19 pm

In my top 5 of S4.
Pinkie Pie: So, you see this here? This, um, this is um, a big, round room. It's known for its roundness, and bigness, and did I mention that it's round?
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:25 pm

Well, different writers have different takes on characters. Same thing with voice acting, Andrea's toned it down in other episodes as well. I think it has more to do with the writing and the directing of the character than anything.

I just don't like the fact that some people write off her character based off of this episode and negativity about her has become more frequent. I see where everyone's coming from with their criticism but it's a tiny bit hard to read about a character that's so dear and close to my heart.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:28 pm

I may have not of liked Pinkie in this episode, but as a whole I enjoyed Pinkie more in S4 than I have in any previous season with her other episodes.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 10:42 pm

Robot, I know it can sometimes be disheartening to see people criticize a character that you personally like (hell, King Sombra fans have had to deal with that since the very beginning). But what's important is what you feel. You wouldn't have taken a liking to Pinkie Pie in the first place if there weren't lots of likable and endearing things about her character.

It's always interesting to visit websites and forums to see other peoples' reactions and opinions concerning different aspects of the show. And places like TRS thrive on discussions and friendly debates among members. There's nothing wrong with hearing someone else's perspective - even if it's a negative one. But at the end of the day, all that matters is the fact that you love Pinkie Pie - flaws, quirks, and all. Nobody can take that away from you. So go out there and continue to enjoy pink party pony! :-P
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:08 pm

Re: Not liking Pinkie, I'm not sure there's ever been a time when I haven't liked her. I'm not sure there's ever been a time when I haven't liked any of the mane 6.

I can take issue with how they're written or their role in a story, but moment-to-moment I still enjoy their antics. As I said in my post, Pinkie was still really funny in this one, even if her behavior was kinda strange.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:12 am

Don't feel bad about liking Pinkie, RB9. She brings some positivity, and that's badly needed in some form in the world today. Criticism dosen't stop me from being a Harshwhinny fan, don't let it stop you from supporting Pinkie either. :-)
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Postby InsertAuthorHere (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:34 am

ROBOT B9 wrote:Well, different writers have different takes on characters. Same thing with voice acting, Andrea's toned it down in other episodes as well. I think it has more to do with the writing and the directing of the character than anything.

I just don't like the fact that some people write off her character based off of this episode and negativity about her has become more frequent. I see where everyone's coming from with their criticism but it's a tiny bit hard to read about a character that's so dear and close to my heart.


If it makes any difference, I don't hate Pinkie Pie. In fact, Pinkie Pride and Pinkie Apple Pie are two of my favorite episodes in Season 4, she was just behind Twilight as my second-favorite character in the first season, and I genuinely enjoy many of her episodes.

It didn't work in this instance because, while Pinkie's antics and lack of empathy can be fun, they can also be taken to such extremes that it becomes discomforting and wrong. Back in season one, Pinkie knew Fluttershy well enough to abort a prank that she knew the pony wouldn't react to well, and she stopped making excuses for Gilda when she roared in said pony's face, so we can't say that Pinkie was unaware of how fragile Fluttershy can be. Furthermore, the episode has her doing the same thing over and over, and even after receiving admonishment from her friends, she not only doesn't learn her lesson, but doesn't seem to even comprehend that making her friend cry and run away is a bad thing. This is a pony whose stated purpose in life is to make other ponies smile, and she thinks telling somepony she knows is emotionally insecure that jealous ponies will descend upon her like an angry mob is a good thing?

In short, I don't like Pinkie in this episode for the same reason I didn't like her in A Friend in Deed or SSCS6K: her actions feel more malicious than simply silly.

And what's frustrating for me personally is that Amy Keating Rogers wrote both this episode and Pinkie Pride. The latter epitomizes Pinkie as a character, showing her virtues and vices and delivering a story that would have been entertaining even without a celebrity cameo. Filli Vanilli, on the other hand, uses her only to exacerbate Fluttershy's fears and humiliation.

Nevertheless, I do like Pinkie. When she is used well, she's really used well. That just didn't happen in this episode.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:43 am

I like Pinkie, and that's precisely why episodes where she's screechy and goes over the line bother me. You can critize something and still like it.
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:05 am

InsertAuthorHere wrote:
It didn't work in this instance because, while Pinkie's antics and lack of empathy can be fun, they can also be taken to such extremes that it becomes discomforting and wrong. Back in season one, Pinkie knew Fluttershy well enough to abort a prank that she knew the pony wouldn't react to well, and she stopped making excuses for Gilda when she roared in said pony's face, so we can't say that Pinkie was unaware of how fragile Fluttershy can be.


In that same episode Pinkie threw a party for the very character who made Fluttershy cry, and then when Fluttershy brought up her discomfort about the whole thing Pinkie casually dismissed her.

Then there was the episode where she stalked Twilight around town, making her afraid to patch things up between Fluttershy and Rarity.

Then there was the episode where she kidnapped and interrogated a small child.

Those are just a few examples, you know what didn't happen in those episodes? She wasn't called out, you know what happened in Filli Vanilli? She was called out.

Again I like Pinkie, and I'm fine with her having difficulty reading others reactions or not knowing when to back off, that's a decent character flaw that a lot of people can relate to. But I wish the show had more moments of characters calling her out on it or her facing actual consequences. Filli Vanilli seemed like a step in the right direction, but everyone just whines about it instead. :ohrarity:
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:24 am

Pinkie knows how to be compassionate (like her nuzzling Twilight near the end of Lesson Zero) and considerate (like her slow-mo jumping into the water in Too Many Pinkie Pies and the aforementioned pranking in Griffon the Brush-off).
I would really like to see more of that Pinkie instead of the, er.. I'm tempted to say bully in this and several other episodes. :pinkieshrug:

Newspaper to the head got to me though. :lol:

Aside from all that, I really enjoyed this feel-good episode. :allears:
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:10 am

Marioland1 wrote:This really only works because of Equestria Girls, since Fluttershy is originally seen handing out flyers to help out the animal shelter. When it comes to animals, she's not very shy at all.


This has been true from the pilot actually, when she was able to direct the bird chorus in front of the entire congregation, something that, without the animals-are-my-thing factor, she'd never be able to do.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:27 am

Yeah, I'm so sorry about that, I was just tired and had to rant to get that out. It's fine that some people criticise the character and I can see where you all are coming from with that. I'm sorry that I got like that. Will you all forgive me?
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 6:35 am

ROBOT B9 wrote:Yeah, I'm so sorry about that, I was just tired and had to rant to get that out. It's fine that some people criticise the character and I can see where you all are coming from with that. I'm sorry that I got like that. Will you all forgive me?

Of course. :hug:
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 7:36 am

ROBOT B9 wrote:Yeah, I'm so sorry about that, I was just tired and had to rant to get that out. It's fine that some people criticise the character and I can see where you all are coming from with that. I'm sorry that I got like that. Will you all forgive me?


You're nicer and more level-headed on a bad day than most people on other forums are on their good days. You have nothing to apologise for :party:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:14 am

Yeah, never apologize for having opinions, Robot. You didn't do anything that you should be sorry for.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:48 am

Strangest Letter wrote:Those are just a few examples, you know what didn't happen in those episodes? She wasn't called out, you know what happened in Filli Vanilli? She was called out.

Let's break it down, why don't we; see if we can find out the "why". This is the place for that, and it's not like I can sleep right now. :insomnia:
Strangest Letter wrote:In that same episode Pinkie threw a party for the very character who made Fluttershy cry, and then when Fluttershy brought up her discomfort about the whole thing Pinkie casually dismissed her.

That's probably because Pinkie parties for a living when she's not baking or pulling pranks.
Strangest Letter wrote:Then there was the episode where she stalked Twilight around town, making her afraid to patch things up between Fluttershy and Rarity.

This was Pinkie Pie magic at work, and each time it was only because Twilight almost spilled a Pinkie Promise. Nopony breaks a Pinkie Promise and gets away with it. It's how they're supposed to work. Didn't you read page 314 of the Official Pinkie Pie Code?
Strangest Letter wrote:Then there was the episode where she kidnapped and interrogated a small child.
I'm assuming you're talking about Spike, which puts this event in the middle of Party of One. I don't think the episode she goes flat out insane is a really good example of her ordinary behavior. Just sayin'. :hithere:

So, your complaints all boil down to:
Pinkie doing what her cutie mark was telling her,
Pinkie's magic doing what it normally does,
and Pinkie mimicking the Mad Hatter.

One is your everyday run-of-the-mill Pinkie Magic (and honestly more Twilight's fault for almost spilling the beans so many times. Don't make a Pinkie Promise if you don't intend to keep it!), another is not really relevant due to being part of a bigger issue (insanity's no joke), and the other... is actually the only relevant one to mention. It'd be silly to say I can blame Pinkie here though, since she is a partier at heart. When she's partying and so many ponies are happy, it makes sense to miss out on a pony that isn't having quite so much fun. Can you blame a mare for missing one in a crowd, even if it's a friend?

Pinkie's outbursts here though? She wasn't insane. She wasn't chasing you to the ends of Equestria because you broke a Pinkie Promise. she wasn't missing things because of a party. No, she was completely self-aware both of the situation and Fluttershy's feelings, and yet still went so much farther than Fluttershy was comfortable with. In other words, she intentionally made Fluttershy cry. That's why she was reprimanded for it, and why the others were shocked.

And just because I oughta...
Bakertoons wrote:Yeah, never apologize for having opinions, Robot. You didn't do anything that you should be sorry for.

Now I'm going back to bed while I still can.
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Marioland1
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Trouble in Horse Town
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