S04E21: Leap of Faith

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Re: S04E21: Leap of Faith

Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:08 pm

The Doctor wrote:Alright episode. I liked all the AJ stuff, but am disappointed that they turned Flim and Flam into con men. These two were certainty guilty of shrewd business practices, but they were not con men in SSCS6000.
True, but after being run out of town, their business in shambles, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to see them having to resort to more dubious practices. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:08 pm

Wylie wrote:I'm going to have to go back through, but I think I might have a problem with AJ admitting that she lied about the tonic. I don't think she ever really did. She told Applebloom it didn't matter, as long as it was helping Granny- that's as close to dishonesty as she got.

I need to think about this a bit more, though.

It was lying by omission, in that she went along with Flim and Flam's idea that it was okay to (falsely) boost the confidence of the ponies drinking it. A surprisingly tricky moral for a children's cartoon to address.
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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:09 pm

It was an okay ep. Need to think about it some more.
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Postby ScionVyse (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:09 pm

Wylie wrote:I'm going to have to go back through, but I think I might have a problem with AJ admitting that she lied about the tonic. I don't think she ever really did. She told Applebloom it didn't matter, as long as it was helping Granny- that's as close to dishonesty as she got.

I need to think about this a bit more, though.


Well, she did tell a sort of half truth midway through the episode. People asked if it works, and AJ said "Well, it seems to work for Granny." Not exactly stating that the tonic DOES work, but not specifying that it's just a placebo either. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:10 pm

Episode morals. Belief is good, but misplaced beliefs can be harmful, also don't trust Granny Smith with money...seriously how many bits did she waste on that Tonic!? XD

Also the broadcast freeze up for anyone else at the end? Hope that's fixed for future airings!

But yea decent ep, 8/10 for me. the cold op was freakin adorable!
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Postby Rarietty (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:11 pm

I just loved the conflict in this episode. Not between Applejack and the Film Flam Bros, but rather the self-conflict between Applejack and herself. Her honesty is both the perfect character positive and flaw. That's what makes AJ such a compelling character to me, and this episode truly gets that. On terms of writing AJ's character, this is probably by far my favorite Applejack episode.

Aside from that, I can't really think of anything else to say about this. The song wasn't bad, but perhaps bland. I just don't want to revisit it like most MLP songs. I don't recall much that stood out to me as hilarious either, aside from the bit with Lyra or the Big Mac shark attack. Great episode character-wise though.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:11 pm

Wylie wrote:I'm going to have to go back through, but I think I might have a problem with AJ admitting that she lied about the tonic. I don't think she ever really did. She told Applebloom it didn't matter, as long as it was helping Granny- that's as close to dishonesty as she got.

I need to think about this a bit more, though.
She didn't technically lie, but it all comes does to whether one considers withholding of the truth to be lying.
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Postby The Outlander (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:13 pm

Wylie wrote:I'm going to have to go back through, but I think I might have a problem with AJ admitting that she lied about the tonic. I don't think she ever really did. She told Applebloom it didn't matter, as long as it was helping Granny- that's as close to dishonesty as she got.

I need to think about this a bit more, though.


I think that actually presents an interesting argument about dishonesty through inaction. Was it really her fault people didn't know just because she withheld from telling anything? She endorsed the product for different reasons than what others were expecting, but the result was still what they wanted for the most part, so was it still lying at that point?

I'm inclined to think that it's inherently dishonest, though not necessarily bad, to keep secrets.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:14 pm

Wylie wrote:I'm going to have to go back through, but I think I might have a problem with AJ admitting that she lied about the tonic. I don't think she ever really did. She told Applebloom it didn't matter, as long as it was helping Granny- that's as close to dishonesty as she got.

I need to think about this a bit more, though.
Flim & Flam basically forced (through marketing) that it was AJ endorsed. Whether she did or not technically isn't much of an issue, the perception was she did.

Also re: Silver Shill - maybe exposition isn't the best word, but it was suddenly out of nowhere, "I'm sorry, I won't do it again, I'll return what I earned, etc." very generic dialogue that was eye-rolling inducing. OK, his character was there to give the key because FF just couldn't reform, but that was a bleh way to handle it.

I honestly thought the Mane 6 mini-pool was going to relate to the key somehow, or give off the glare for AJ's eyes. Guess that was just a minor detail instead... the keys themselves have really dropped off, though - meaningful trinkets in a spool of thread and Boneless, and even the EqG qualifying medal. Now just a flower and one random coin?
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:16 pm

Wayoshi wrote:the keys themselves have really dropped off, though - meaningful trinkets in a spool of thread and Boneless, and even the EqG qualifying medal. Now just a flower and one random coin?
They're pretty meaningful to the ponies that gave them, and even more so to the ones that received them. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:16 pm

:flimflam: Well, we had to run and dash, but at least we got the cash!

:unenthused: Have I got a nightmare for you two.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:17 pm

Ah, Flim and Flam. I believe my fondest memories of their original episode was the mewling of indignant free-marketeers on EqD. (No, they were not good business ponies. Good business practice involves consistency of quality, something they were only too eager to sacrifice for a quick buck).

Anyhoo, the episode (what I caught of it, thank you, Ustream :applejargh: ) was enjoyable enough, though the honesty moment for Shill (great name) perhaps could have arrived a little earlier—it got rushed towards the end. As for the truthiness of Applejack, she didn't lie as such, but you have a responsibility, not only for honesty, but also for how your message is perceived by your audience. Her guarded statement was perceived as an endorsement, something she did nothing to rectify until much later.
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Postby Applepie (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:18 pm

Not a rewatch worth just like last episode, but good to have Flim Flam back and a song too including AJ's key.
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:19 pm

Another key episode (OK. Now is there an "alicorn pony error" anywhere in the episode? :gotcha: ). Overall pretty good. I did see Derpy in the background on one of the bleachers in one shot.

AJ should've issued Flim and Flam a C&D for using her likeness without her consent. :smirk:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:19 pm

I think the coin was to simbolise how Applejack made Shill become a honest pony.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:33 pm

Wayoshi wrote:I honestly thought the Mane 6 mini-pool was going to relate to the key somehow, or give off the glare for AJ's eyes. Guess that was just a minor detail instead... the keys themselves have really dropped off, though - meaningful trinkets in a spool of thread and Boneless, and even the EqG qualifying medal. Now just a flower and one random coin?

The only one of the keys that has any significant value to it is Spitfire's medal. Coco Pommel's thread just seems to be a thread in a pretty rainbow color, and judging by that pool you mentioned, rainbow-colored things are not uncommon in Equestria. Boneless seemed special, but Cheese Sandwich literally pointed out just a second later that he had Boneless 2 all ready to go, so Boneless is intrinsically just any other rubber chicken. Neither of them are really all that valuable compared to Seabreeze's flower and especially Silver Shill's bit.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:34 pm

It's just really basic objects though, the flower and coin. Rarity's and Pinkie's were very organic, R.D.'s was decent enough too. I guess the coin also was given the potential symbolism, and the flower is the worse as the most generic thing from a magical kingdom in another dimension.

EDIT: Mane 6 color rainbow is common in Equestria? I'm not going to be sold on that one. :-P
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Postby Wylie (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:35 pm

Yeah, I guess a lie by omission is the only way to get around Applejack naturally not wanting to / not being able to lie. Can't wait for the youtube versions to come up for a rewatch- there's a lot of fun stuff going on in the background here:

- the aforementioned pony wearing the protective cone- that gets funnier the more I think about it.
- Lyra's little scenes as a judge- first overly critical, then that bit of awkwardness with holding up her score wrong
- the synchronized swimming scene- that was actually very well done. I wonder what a cutie mark in synchronized swimming even looks like?

Maybe I missed it at the end- were the other Mane 5 even present in this episode at all?
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Postby HuffyTheMagicDragon (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:40 pm

I'm a bit biased, but I thought the episode freakin' OWNED. :yay: :ponydrugs:

I say I'm biased because I've been waiting for a good solid Applejack episode basically forever now, and this was exactly that. It was about Applejack and her family and other fun characters but without ever taking the central focus away from AJ or forcing her to act strangely. She made a mistake, owned up to it and learned from it, inspired honesty in another pony, and the whole ep was a good mix of fun and story. Best AJ ep in quite a while.

The Flim/Flam song wasn't as good as the previous one, true, but I liked how they were handled overall, and I was glad they didn't get "redeemed" and give AJ her key. Silver Shill was better. It's pretty funny that AJ's key was money. I'm okay with that; it's certainly a lot better than it being a freakin' apple. Oh, and the rest of the Apple Family was pretty great in this too.

Overall I give this episode 5/5 apples. :twasnothin:

I'd probably rank this the second best key episode after Pinkie Pride. Definitely at least equal with Rarity's IMO. Mad props to Josh Haber for giving AJ a good one.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:41 pm

BEST TYPO EVER!
https://twitter.com/hubtvnetwork/status ... 9844400129
You heard it straight from the horses mouth people, real moral of the ep. If you're old, give up on your dreams! :gotcha:
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Postby Mir (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:46 pm

Wayoshi wrote:
I honestly thought the Mane 6 mini-pool was going to relate to the key somehow, or give off the glare for AJ's eyes. Guess that was just a minor detail instead... the keys themselves have really dropped off, though - meaningful trinkets in a spool of thread and Boneless, and even the EqG qualifying medal. Now just a flower and one random coin?


Fluttershy's flower was a forget-me-not. :allears:
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Postby ScionVyse (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:48 pm

SoundMonkey44 wrote:BEST TYPO EVER!
https://twitter.com/hubtvnetwork/status ... 9844400129
You heard it straight from the horses mouth people, real moral of the ep. If you're old, give up on your dreams! :gotcha:


That is amazing, and it's right. I'm gonna give up on all my dreams, as it's not too late yet, I haven't achieved them! Thanks, HubTVNetwok! :party:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:49 pm

I'm pretty sure that none of the other members of the Main Six appeared in this at all. Neat to see something with just the Apple Family in it, I don't think that's happened before.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:51 pm

That's nice and all, but it really wasn't obvious in the episode. :pinkieshrug:

Just at face value, a flower and coin can't reach the heights of a rubber chicken. Wish they were all as inventive as that, I guess.

Anyways, my assumption going into this one was that FF might be inspired to be honest and that would really mess things up. I'm glad they passed that off to new character Geromy instead in this case - lesser of the two evils. I'm also glad that generic con men was offset by them going after AJ right away - not bothering to try to dupe her - and instead play to her familial nature. And then they make it a successful marketing strategy for awhile.
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Postby ScionVyse (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:55 pm

If the coin was a bit malformed or something I suppose it'd be a bit better, as it's be more unique. The flower on the other hand, well, flowers die within a few days after being picked, so I assume it'll just be shriveled up remains by time the finale hits.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:56 pm

I'm sure Fluts will have it all flowered and stuff. They're not going to have a dead flower in the big finale. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Just at face value, a flower and coin can't reach the heights of a rubber chicken. Wish they were all as inventive as that, I guess.

"Just at face value" will be important in the end. What's most valuable is the way that the five of them shared their virtues with others, increasing friendship and harmony in Equestria and beyond. They're trinkets without that sentiment, but it's that sentiment that gives things true value in life.
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Postby HuffyTheMagicDragon (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:59 pm

^Exactly. Even Boneless would just be a rubber chicken if Cheese hadn't named him. He even has spares.
ROBOT B9 wrote:I'm pretty sure that none of the other members of the Main Six appeared in this at all. Neat to see something with just the Apple Family in it, I don't think that's happened before.

I'm pretty sure it's happened more than once before. Off the top of my head, if I'm remembering correctly: Apple Family Reunion, Family Appreciation Day, Somepony to Watch Over Me... (the latter two had the CMC, but none of the Mane Six)
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:59 pm

Fluttershy could have placed the flower in the diary, so it would be pressed, instead of outright dying
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Postby ScionVyse (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:00 pm

sailoryue wrote:Fluttershy could have placed the flower in the diary, so it would be pressed, instead of outright dying

Or maybe Twilight found an eternal life spell. I wouldn't doubt it.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:01 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:"Just at face value" will be important in the end. What's most valuable is the way that the five of them shared their virtues with others, increasing friendship and harmony in Equestria and beyond. They're trinkets without that sentiment, but it's that sentiment that gives things true value in life.

It's still a bad first impression. I was like "really, this dinky random 'hard-earned hurr hurr' coin is going to be the key? That AJ is really going to keep around as a memento?"
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:04 pm

(Phone posting)

Sweet sassy molassy I love Flim and Flam. This was all amazing. And got to actually see it on the Hub on a television.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:10 pm

Nitpicking over keys now too are we!?

Yea today's a good day to do yard work and ignore the internet. :-I
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:11 pm

CIDER CIDER CIDER was so good, it was going to be hard to top. TONIC TONIC TONIC I thought captured the style pretty well (especially with the vocabulary) and was pretty good, although the abrupt ending bothered me quite a bit - I'm partial to the grand final chorus of CIDER.

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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:11 pm

HuffyTheMagicDragon wrote:I'm pretty sure it's happened more than once before. Off the top of my head, if I'm remembering correctly: Apple Family Reunion, Family Appreciation Day, Somepony to Watch Over Me... (the latter two had the CMC, but none of the Mane Six)


I think Pinkie made a quick appearance in Apple Family Reunion. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby HuffyTheMagicDragon (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:30 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:
I think Pinkie made a quick appearance in Apple Family Reunion. :pinkieshrug:

Ah, you're right. So do Rarity and Dash. I forgot about AJ getting supplies and help from the others.

Something I noticed in this episode:

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The Flim-Flam brothers usually appeared from this 3/4 angle, which is new for them. In SSCS6K they were nearly always head-on or from the side. They looked less stiff and more organic here. Like when Celestia first appeared from this angle in season 2. The animators, always stepping it up.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:48 pm

The Doctor wrote: :flirt: Got my key, and the key is...


Image Now there's a gift near and dear to my heart!

Wayoshi wrote:I guess the coin also was given the potential symbolism, and the flower is the worse as the most generic thing from a magical kingdom in another dimension.

I'd say a single coin is the silliest so far, unless AJ plans on framing it a la "my (friend's) first (honest) sale." But I bet there aren't many transdimensional flowers in Equestria, and besides, it was a present from migrant bug people.

I find the whole "key item" thing pretty silly anyway, so nitpicking them too hard is probably not worth the effort.
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Postby drunkill (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 4:49 pm

That was a good episode, despite justin.tv crapping out for me, making it the first live episode I've missed since season 2 (only caught to the song before it crapped out)

This episode felt like a Season 1 episode with the ending and the honesty speech. I think the pacing was a little off overall but the individual moments in the episode were really neat.
I liked the song, while not as catchy as SSCS6k it had a nice tune to hum along to.
More Flim and Flam is a great thing, pity they ended up being swindlers, perhaps if their product did somewhat work but went about selling it in a more honest way instead.
Silver Shill was a good side character.

Applejack's key is Capitalism! :squintyjack:

That was totally sweetie belle laughing at the very end too. :smirk:
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 5:56 pm

Good episode, good song, and I have no issue with the key being a coin. It pounds home "a penny saved is a penny earned", and is a reminder than an earning an honest buck is better than earning a fast one. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby LardLad3545 (?) » Sat Mar 29, 2014 6:08 pm

Welp, missed the stream. Woke up with a migraine and ended up totally throwing up from it about 15 minutes before the episode aired. Naturally I was in no state to watch anything, so I slept and just watched an HD upload a few minutes ago instead. I've still got a migraine hangover, but I'll do my best to keep things coherent.

It's not surprising that I enjoyed this episode too, though I will say that I was initially disappointed that the story went this way instead of the tonic actually working but AJ's disdain for Flim and Flam got in the way of her admitting that the tonic worked. However, upon further thought, I realized that my scenario is actually less complicated than what actually happened, so that complaint has been stifled. I guess my only remaining slight disappointment is that now the Flim Flam bros. are conmen and frauds now, when they actually weren't beforehand. Meh, that's pretty minor though. Still thought the whole thing was quite good. I also liked that the dilemma was totally legit. Sometimes in pony, the problem can be pretty easily solved by some logical thinking, but this time was different. The solution of being honest was obvious, but AJ knew that and the process of getting there was difficult. I dunno what I'm trying to say. It was just well done and well thought out.
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