S04E25-26: Twilight's Kingdom

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Re: S04E25-26: Twilight's Kingdom

Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 9:50 am

MMC was amazing, so I trust they know what they're doing :-P
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 12:23 pm

Sudden thought: If Tirek comes to Ponyville, what happens if he attacks Sweetie Belle? She's old enough to do magic but still doesn't have her cutie mark.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 12:31 pm

An evil overlord that can steal magic is in town, let's give every princess' magic to a single pony who may or may not end up getting caught, then tell her not to ask her friends to help her.

What could go wrong?
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 12:34 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Sudden thought: If Tirek comes to Ponyville, what happens if he attacks Sweetie Belle? She's old enough to do magic but still doesn't have her cutie mark.



Nothing happens, Sweetie Has an emberassed look on her face, and Tirek shakes his head in dissapointment. :gotcha:

@HighbrowDash: yea, you know things will work out, but I agree in retrospect it's kind of a stupid plan, you should never put all your eggs in one basket. Me thinks Tia be goin senile in her old age.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 12:35 pm

It isn't that bad of an idea. They're acknowledging that Twilight is better at magic than any of the rest of them, so if they let her wield all their power combined, she'd be most effective with it. It's also an acknowledgment of Tirek's ridiculously huge power, that Celestia and the others believe they'd be defeated if they went up against Tirek alone.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 12:55 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:It isn't that bad of an idea. They're acknowledging that Twilight is better at magic than any of the rest of them, so if they let her wield all their power combined, she'd be most effective with it. It's also an acknowledgment of Tirek's ridiculously huge power, that Celestia and the others believe they'd be defeated if they went up against Tirek alone.


Calling it now, her powers get stolen but her friends show up and we find out that the magic of friendship was inside them all along :party:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 1:02 pm

Wayoshi wrote:What is Dal saying that's unexpected at all, Doctor? I thought you were ragging about kidnapped princesses


For me it's more the pattern of every two parter Meghan has done. Other Princesses are made to look bad or are marginalized so Twilight looks good.

Canterlot Wedding: Only Twilight knows something is up. Celestia, who has raised Cadance for years can't tell. Cadance has to be saved not once, but twice by Twilight. Oh shit, we forgot entirely about Luna.

Crystal Empire: Exposition gets Celestia and Luna out of the picture right away. Cadance can't be trouble to fly up to the top of her tower to look for that Crystal heart. Not like it was hidden in a dungeon.

Princess Twilight Sparkle: Just have Celestia and Luna get kidnapped early on. Say Cadance is away.

Twilight's Kingdom: Other Princesses have to give up their powers so Twilight can save the day. Might be kidnapped again.

Each taken on it's own, not an issue. Some of them were great episodes, like Canterlot Wedding. But it's become a pattern and for me, it's getting old. Especially after the comics have managed not to fall into this easy out.

Take Celestia as the easiest example. She's basically the wise, powerful mentor character we've seen lots of times in fiction. She's the Gandalf and Dumbledore character. Gandalf and Dumbledore were never the main characters, and their power was used appropriately to assist the hero. They never got marginalized or brought down in order to make the Hero look good. It just comes off as lazy writing to me to do so, especially over and over again.

It's not as if I am going to to give up the show. Meghan writes two episodes a season, and while I might find her to be the weakest writer (she was great S1 and early S2, so I wonder if she just has too much on her plate now), I still enjoy the others quite a bit. S4 has been great.

And maybe I'll be blown away by tomorrow's episode. Maybe the other Princesses are actually used in a meaningful way. Maybe they fight and distract Tirek while Twilight and the Others figure out how to open that box. I'd love to eat crow on this.
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 2:55 pm

Obi-wan got cut down, early in the story, just to let the hero escape.

Gandalf got killed, again early in the story, to let the hero escape and continue the journey. He got revived, but even then he was put in a position in which he could no longer help the protagonist directly

Dumbledore, well, no spoilers right? Or has that expired?

Old mentor characters solving the problems usually is skirted in this way simply because it usually feels cheap for them to contribute too much. For good examples of when other characters go and just solve problems for the protagonist character and why this is bad, see Equestria Girls. Brad saves Twilight, and Pinkie just handwaves Twilight being a magical horse. Particularly in Pinkie's case it might make sense, Pinkie's have been established as being almost seer-like in their ability to know things they shouldn't, but it's still bad writing and still just deflates all the tension in the scene in a poor way.

The closest we could get to the other princesses getting involved is a team up like Twilight with Cadence in Three's Company.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 2:59 pm

I'm kinda missing the part where it's said that Twilight and Twilight alone will have to save the day here. If getting all of that magic was the solution to their problem, then the box wouldn't need to be opened. Obviously it won't work.
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Postby ScionVyse (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 3:11 pm

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:Dumbledore, we'll, no spoilers right? Or has that expired?

It's been like 10 years, everybody knows that Snape kills Celestia by now. :gotcha:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 3:21 pm

If the princesses solve every problem instead of the main character we won't have a narrative.

This show is a fictional cartoon (as opposed to a real cartoon :v: ) and thus doesn't actually exist, so they write the princesses in whatever way they want just so they don't end up doing all the work.
I don't know what else to tell you? :pinkieshrug:

Celestia is marginalized because she has to be. Because she's not the main character, Purple Smart is.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 3:35 pm

Aramek wrote:If the princesses solve every problem instead of the main character we won't have a narrative.


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e:
There's more animation out of Celestia here than all of season four. :rainbert:

Celestia is marginalized because she has to be. Because she's not the main character, Purple Smart is.


Hyperblurple :spike101:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:17 pm

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:Obi-wan got cut down, early in the story, just to let the hero escape.

Gandalf got killed, again early in the story, to let the hero escape and continue the journey. He got revived, but even then he was put in a position in which he could no longer help the protagonist directly

Dumbledore, well, no spoilers right? Or has that expired?

Old mentor characters solving the problems usually is skirted in this way simply because it usually feels cheap for them to contribute too much. For good examples of when other characters go and just solve problems for the protagonist character and why this is bad, see Equestria Girls. Brad saves Twilight, and Pinkie just handwaves Twilight being a magical horse. Particularly in Pinkie's case it might make sense, Pinkie's have been established as being almost seer-like in their ability to know things they shouldn't, but it's still bad writing and still just deflates all the tension in the scene in a poor way.

The closest we could get to the other princesses getting involved is a team up like Twilight with Cadence in Three's Company.


But the difference is that they do something. Obiwon helps Luke and the others escape. And helps even after death. Gandalf was always working to assist both Frodo and Aragorn. Dumbledore worked to aid Harry wherever he could. They didn't just sit back and have the hero do everything.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:22 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote: Hyperblurple :spike101:
That's the name for when :wingsright: goes SSJ in the finale. Then she's Hyperblurple.

And uses this emote: :twience:

===

Also, how is Tirek pronounced? Is it TEER-eck? or TIE-wreck?

If it is the latter, I'll be hearing it a lot in the episode, because my first name may or may not be Ty. And so I *hear* it louder than I should.
The Doctor wrote:But the difference is that they do something. Obiwon helps Luke and the others escape. And helps even after death. Gandalf was always working to assist both Frodo and Aragorn. Dumbledore worked to aid Harry wherever he could. They didn't just sit back and have the hero do everything.

The main difference is the whole God Empress of Ponykind thing. She's way, way more powerful than Obiwan or Gandalf or Dumbledore were in their setting. Her "helping" would be to turn the blood of the enemies into steam and their bones into talc.

It is akin to wondering why Q didn't join the Enterprise as a permanent crew member with his reality powers. Because he could snap and end every episode. It is why they don't have Discord do that either. (But I'm excited as fuck to see how they do him in the finale!)

e2: Better example. It is the reason every single episode of JLU didn't end with Amazo teleporting the baddie into the Sun.
Last edited by Aramek on Fri May 09, 2014 4:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

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Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby Bumble-B (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:22 pm

Um... no one gonna post this video posted an hour ago...???

:sigh: And I'm not even that hyped for the episode :facehoof:



BTW... Pinkie, your screeching voice :psyduck:
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:29 pm

I legit don't understand why people want the god level mentors to do everything easily.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:30 pm

When people complain about Pinkie being too screechy (Screechie Pie), that's a prime example of it. There was no reason to deliver that line like a yell.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:31 pm

Aramek wrote:That's the name for when :wingsright: goes SSJ in the finale. Then she's Hyperblurple.

And uses this emote: :twience:

===

Also, how is Tirek pronounced? Is it TEER-eck? or TIE-wreck?

If it is the latter, I'll be hearing it a lot in the episode, because my first name may or may not be Ty. And so I *hear* it louder than I should.

The main difference is the whole God Empress of Ponykind thing. She's way, way more powerful than Obiwan or Gandalf or Dumbledore were in their setting. Her "helping" would be to turn the blood of the enemies into steam and their bones into talc.

It is akin to wondering why Q didn't join the Enterprise as a permanent crew member with his reality powers. Because he could snap and end every episode. It is why they don't have Discord do that either. (But I'm excited as fuck to see how they do him in the finale!)


Well, let's look at Return of Harmony. Celestia had to fix Twilight before Twilight could fix her friends. She didn't steal the spotlight, But she was a participant in the story.

shotgunbadger wrote:I legit don't understand why people want the god level mentors to do everything easily.


I hope I am not coming off as advocating that. That would be boring. Celestia and Luna are not the leads of this show. I would just like to see them have some role beyond just giving exposition and getting kidnapped. Again, look at the first two comic arcs. Celestia (and Luna in the second arc) are doing other things in the background away from the main story.
Last edited by The Doctor on Fri May 09, 2014 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:34 pm

What Celestia did there was just another nudge in the right direction. She set things off and Twilight actually executed them. Celestia was the one who decided to send Twilight to Ponyville instead of directly intervening in the return of Nightmare Moon, and Celestia was also the one who decided to send Twilight to save the Crystal Empire instead of directly stopping King Sombra herself.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 4:58 pm

I love this forum, and that we can have these debates. How about this. I'll make a new thread on Sunday so we can include the context of tomorrow's episode in this debate.

And then we don't have to bother any of the mods who might feel the need to drop the off topic bomb on this thread. :gotcha:
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:00 pm

I say they drop it anyway. Purge the thread
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:10 pm

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AAAGH THIS THREAD DON'T LOOK AT IT
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Postby Aramek (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:15 pm

How's this for on topic?

I feel so damned hyped I actually feel the need to smoke.

Artists depiction:
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:20 pm

ALL ABOARD THE HYPE TRAIN!!! :party:

I can't believe it's less then 24 hours until the Finale! Fells like just yesterday we were waiting for the premire...oh how time flies.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:22 pm

Well time for some good news, it seems due to issues with hours (and my job being unable to let me have overtime) I'm gonna have to take like a two hour break tomorrow, so originally I wasn't gonna get to see the finale until later in the afternoon, but now I'll get to see it like an hour after it airs. :allears:

And yeah I'm excited for this one, even without the billboards, the full-page ads in the New York Times, the marathons hosted by real people interacting awkwardly with vectors, etc. etc.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:25 pm

I can definitely relate to the coffee part of that scene.

Yeah, we don't need Pinkiescreech there. She dosen't have to be :maud: but neither should she be :rant:

I like Discord more every time I see him. I expect a front and center place for him in next season's opener. :excellent:
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:36 pm

DerFurShur wrote:And yeah I'm excited for this one, even without the billboards, the full-page ads in the New York Times, the marathons hosted by real people interacting awkwardly with vectors, etc. etc.

There were billboards advertising past finales? Man, I remember the NYT ad for ACW (seeing mention of that ad back in April 2012 was actually what made me finally take the plunge and start watching this show), but a billboard seems like too much.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:43 pm

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This ran in LA for a couple of weeks leading up to the finale

Oddly enough it was replaced by this

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Personally I want the one with Cadance back
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 5:48 pm

That was the same billboard that ran the BRIDLEMAIDS one back in early S2. :smirk:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 6:21 pm

That Care Bears Cartoon was creepy man! I mean the bears designs were OK, but the human kids were just fugly in CG, they should have gone the MLP route and made the show just about the bears IMO.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 6:31 pm

I'm finally back home from college. And you know what that means!

It means that my internet at home is so obscenely slow that I doubt I'll be able to reliably stream the finale. Maybe. If I'm lucky.

Please Celestia, grace my broadband with your mercy. :pcstare:
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Postby Kiith Soban (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 7:10 pm

Aramek wrote:Also, how is Tirek pronounced? Is it TEER-eck? or TIE-wreck?

If they got the name from the word "T-rex", then it's tee-reck. I've no idea why it would be otherwise.
Fizzbuzz wrote:What Celestia did there was just another nudge in the right direction. She set things off and Twilight actually executed them. Celestia was the one who decided to send Twilight to Ponyville instead of directly intervening in the return of Nightmare Moon, and Celestia was also the one who decided to send Twilight to save the Crystal Empire instead of directly stopping King Sombra herself.

What's been bothering me here is the possibility of that not happening. For the other finales, yes, it was Twilight who executed Celestia's plans, but she had to learn something in the process and get help from her friends. Obviously the writers should know that this is how it should go, but I'm expecting more than a rehash of S301 or S401.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 7:15 pm

Tirek speaks his own name in that clip where he sucks that one pony dry.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 7:18 pm

Yeah, at work and all YT be blocked, so, can't hear it. :pinkieshrug: I guess I can just be surprised tomorrow when he says it.

vvv :negative: I haven't seen it in forever, so, that doesn't help either. It is now "Terrell" until further notice.
Last edited by Aramek on Fri May 09, 2014 7:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 7:20 pm

It's pronounced the same way as it was back in Rescue at midnight castle.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 7:26 pm

:gotcha: Sounds like T-Rex, but a k instead of x at the end.

:v: don't move, Twilight. Tirek's vision is based on movement.

:twonk: no it isn't!
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Postby Aramek (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 7:27 pm

Check yo-self before Tirek you-self.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby Tears (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 10:27 pm

Super excited about the finale. I'm so glad I burned through my phone data allowance this month, because I won't be able to check TRS or twitter or anything while I'm out tomorrow :allears:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 10:37 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:There's more animation out of Celestia here than all of season four. :rainbert:

Now, I haven't counted frames or points of articulation or anything, but I'd hate for you to sell the season 4 intro short (with aerial princess laser beams, Elements of Harmony, and Discord-got-your-tail).
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Fri May 09, 2014 10:55 pm

Something I just realized, isn't there something wrong with Celestia saying that the rest of the Mane 6 shouldn't be able to help in anything? I mean, she was the one who made Twilight make friends in the first place, rather than simply assigning her other ponies to take up the elements. It's stuff like this that kind of irks me about this finale. She new the friends would become the elements, but if they're no good to anything else to her (in her eyes) what's the point?
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