S04E25-26: Twilight's Kingdom

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Re: Let's Re-Watch Week 22 : Twilight's Kingdom

Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:01 am

Dexanth wrote:The Crystal Empire wasn't counterproductive - the entire point there was to put Twilight in a situation where she had to choose whether she was going to obey the rules even when doing so would be disastrous. It was her test of character, her not-quite Kobayashi Maru. I admit, the one thing I am curious on is what the backup plan, if any, is in situations like these, although IIRC Lauren always put it as 'Celestia has a sort of 'destiny sense' and she's pretty damned good at using it'.

'If Tirek represents such a threat, why send Discord alone? He's proven he's not fully trustworthy numerous times already, and sending him into that situation by himself is like sending a recovering alcoholic into a wild booze-laden party where everyone's going to be begging him to have just one little drink.

I think Occam's razor would have a field day slicing up Celestia's actions across the various crises we've seen. Sometimes, it makes sense to believe she's in control. Sometimes, it looks like a happy accident. The string of coincidences required to make her a chessmaster in Twilight's Kingdom is miles long.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:40 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:I think Occam's razor would have a field day slicing up Celestia's actions across the various crises we've seen. Sometimes, it makes sense to believe she's in control. Sometimes, it looks like a happy accident. The string of coincidences required to make her a chessmaster in Twilight's Kingdom is miles long.


Cough.

PaulloDEC wrote:Additionally, in the Journal of the Two Sisters it's strongly implied that a young Star Swirl time-travelled far enough into the future to be aware of Twilight. How far exactly, it doesn't let on. We've always assumed that Celestia's unwavering faith in Twilight had to do with some vague idea of destiny, but there's also the possibility that Star Swirl, and therefore Celestia have known what Twilight can (and perhaps will) do for a very long time already...


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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:29 am

Watching a screener copy of the episode is cheating unless you're Mel Brooks. :grumpydash:
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:38 am

Well, as I'm too busy gagging over my own sinus drainage to sleep, might as well post ponies in-between coughing fits and sips of hot peppermint tea. In fact, I might as well just go over the whole darned thing while I've got the time.

Let's start at the top, shall we?

The first thing we see of this episode is Twilight complaining about the lack of stuff she's actually doing as a Princess, and honestly, it's a question most of us had been asking for quite some time before this episode. It just feels right to see her questioning this kind of behavior, and it starts us off with a thick layer of authenticity to the episode. She knows she's just showing off right now, doing little to nothing in terms of her princesshood, and she makes it more than clear that she doesn't like that.

And then, of course, we get the first (and greatest) song. I'll be honest, this is the only episode I would not have minded less music, simply because this song simply drowns out the other song at the end of the episode to the point where I almost keep forgetting that there is one. I'd even go so far as to call it one of the top 3 songs in the entire show but that might be pushing it a little bit. Probably not though.

The plot begins to unravel, and we see Tirek for the first time in this incarnation of the show. It's kind of neat to see how different the story of Tirek is this time around when compared to the G1 counterpart, where Tirek worked alone and Scorpan was just a cursed human prince forced to serve him among the others. It's an excellent reference, but also proves beyond a doubt that G1 and G4 are not in the same universe.

And, now that Tirek's origins are out of the way, we see the Discord Arc come to fruition once he is chosen to track him down. I do agree with a lot of the people above when I say that Discord is the best choice here. Twilight may be clever, but with this kind of threat, there's nothing she can do. She can't match up to Discord's tracking prowess. She should have accompanied him though, or something, to prevent him from falling so easily. What can you say? Celestia may be ancient and wise, but she's not perfect.

And then we have key filler, just to show that they still exist. Thanks Hasbro!

With Tirek growing and Discord nonresponsive. they throw all of their apples into one basket: Twilight. This is a pretty tough call Celestia made here, as she's pretty much sacrificing herself, Luna, and Cadence as Tirek bait. If it is chess Celestia is playing, then this is one very unusual and necessary play. Discord's reaction is pretty clever too, and it's made me wonder if he intentionally concealed it after having some second thoughts on turning, or if he just didn't think anything of it. I guess that's up to your imagination.

Eventually, we get around to Discord's full betrayal of the other 5 Elements, and likewise being betrayed himself. As the Avatar of Chaos, he should have honestly seen that one coming, but he's got his role to play, and play it he shall. Besides, just look at that raw chaos magic. Whomever thought up that design is a genius.

Twilight and Tirek proceed to have their duel, and the well known Golden Oaks Library goes down in smoke. I just can't think of any words worth saying about this, especially given just how much importance this thing holds to the plot. I just can't do it justice from here on out.

Ah well. I tried at least. Might as well just try and go back to sleep, I guess.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:38 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:Watching a screener copy of the episode is cheating unless you're Mel Brooks. :grumpydash:


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Celestia and Star Swirl: no bucks given.

Marioland1 wrote:Well, as I'm too busy gagging over my own sinus drainage to sleep, might as well post ponies in-between coughing fits and sips of hot peppermint tea. In fact, I might as well just go over the whole darned thing while I've got the time.

Let's start at the top, shall we?


Just wanted to say, nice post. We're in agreeance on a lot of things, particularly "You'll Play Your Part", which is an amazing song and definitely one of my favourites. I'm glad I wasn't the only fan of Discord's chaos magic, too.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:17 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:Just wanted to say, nice post. We're in agreeance on a lot of things, particularly "You'll Play Your Part", which is an amazing song and definitely one of my favourites. I'm glad I wasn't the only fan of Discord's chaos magic, too.

I think the theft of Discord's chaos magic is an easily overlooked animation gem. It's certainly unique to say the least.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:32 pm

Twiligt's Kingdom is easily my favorite 2-parter along with Canterlot Wedding, both have a theatrical/Cinimatic feel to them IMO despite just being 42-44 minute tales.

I really loved the songs in this, and the story itself did a good job of cementing Twilight is indeed ready for her new position as princess of friendship. :twiright:

My only compaint is I still think her new Crystal tree-castle is kinda gaudy. :v:
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:41 pm

We've always assumed that Celestia's unwavering faith in Twilight had to do with some vague idea of destiny, but there's also the possibility that Star Swirl, and therefore Celestia have known what Twilight can (and perhaps will) do for a very long time already...


I find it interesting that when a show like Korra has storytelling problems, it's immidiatly criticised and picked apart. As if slips up can't happen. When pony does it (and does it a lot) there's always a made up fan explenation as to why poor writing is totally part of the plan. Celestia is a chessmaster, can see the future/destiny... It's never "the writers slipped up here, mistakes happen".
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 4:55 pm

Tailspin wrote:
I find it interesting that when a show like Korra has storytelling problems, it's immidiatly criticised and picked apart. As if slips up can't happen. When pony does it (and does it a lot) there's always a made up fan explenation as to why poor writing is totally part of the plan. Celestia is a chessmaster, can see the future/destiny... It's never "the writers slipped up here, mistakes happen".

I think it's because mystery has always been a part of FiM, considering how the show never defines anything until it's necessary, so as to leave things open in the future. With that taken into consideration, I suppose people just enjoy speculation and guessing games. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:00 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I think it's because mystery has always been a part of FiM, considering how the show never defines anything until it's necessary, so as to leave things open in the future. With that taken into consideration, I suppose people just enjoy speculation and guessing games. :pinkieshrug:


There's speculation and then there's what i'm talking about. The episode's (and show in general) story problems and plot holes have been brought up before and they were always met by "no you see Celestia planned everything it's not a plot hole". There's no indication of any of this being a plan or the result of some knowlegde other then being a bunch of things that happened because the plot said so. And no ammount of fanon is going to fix that.

Other shows get criticised for the same stuff, but FiM apparently gets a free pass because PONIES.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm

I'm all for the "Celestia is a chessmaster" logic, but this episode was just to garbled for it to really make any sense.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:48 pm

Quality of writing is just a subjective in a piece of entertainment as anything else, two people can argue over the same aspect of a work. One saying it improved it the other saying it hurt it.

Just sayin.

Also I find some of the people who complain about certain aspects of Korra are just being overly anal.


But hey, I guess I just have a more broad/abstract deffinition of what makes something good or bad then others.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:58 pm

Tailspin wrote:
I find it interesting that when a show like Korra has storytelling problems, it's immidiatly criticised and picked apart. As if slips up can't happen. When pony does it (and does it a lot) there's always a made up fan explenation as to why poor writing is totally part of the plan. Celestia is a chessmaster, can see the future/destiny... It's never "the writers slipped up here, mistakes happen".


There's plenty out there that tries to rip this episode's plot to shreds if you want it. :pinkieshrug:

Personally, I don't see critical points in this episode as being plot holes, and there are plenty of defenses of it that have been made outside of "Celestia is a chessmaster" idea.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:22 pm

Well it goes back to why have Twilight do it herself. Before it makes sense, but it has become more and more nonsensical.

Nightmare Moon:
As the embodiment of Luna's resentment, Celestia is pretty much the one pony who can't save Luna. She can defeat Nightmare Moon again, but she wants to try and get her sister back, so she sends someone else who can do the job. Makes sense.

Discord:
I'm guessing that Discord really can't be killed like Sombra could. He's one of those near-imortal beings like Celestia and Luna are. Celestia and Luna no longer have access to the elements so they send the ones who do to solve the problem. Makes sense.

Chrysalis:
It was never Celestia's intention to have Twilight defeat her, and while Twilight had to save Cadance twice before Cadance could defeat Chrysalis, there was never a "lets teach Twilight a lesson" plan.

Sombra:
It really made no sense to send Twilight. Sending Cadance would have made sense, to establish her as the Empire's new leader, but heck if we'll give Cadance a two part episode. Shove her off on shield duty.

Magic Plants:
These were just stupid, so I'll move on.

Tirek:
World shattering villain who can ruin the lives of every pony on the planet. It makes no sense for Celestia and Luna to just sit back, and do nothing. Sending Discord on his own? makes no sense. Giving Twilight all the magic because Tirek might not know about her (despite Discord having turned at this point) makes no sense. It was only done because the plot to shoehorn this into a Twilight story demanded it.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:36 pm

Tirek:
World shattering villain who can ruin the lives of every pony on the planet. It makes no sense for Celestia and Luna to just sit back, and do nothing. Sending Discord on his own? makes no sense. Giving Twilight all the magic because Tirek might not know about her (despite Discord having turned at this point) makes no sense. It was only done because the plot to shoehorn this into a Twilight story demanded it.


Sending Discord in general makes sense, as he can track Tirek and was more than a match for him.

Sending Discord alone makes sense if you think Celestia can have errors in judgement. Discord had, to this point, been fairly good and had sincerely turned over a new leaf. Even if he was a jerk, he wasn't doing anything destructive and had struck up a real friendship with Fluttershy. It turned out to be wrong to put trust in Discord, but hindsight is 20-20.

Giving Twilight all the magic makes sense if you consider it an act of desperation. It was a bad option, but better ones weren't readily available; Tirek had grown too strong to confront in the eyes of the princesses, so hiding seemed better. And Twilight was the best candidate to do that, even if she wasn't a good candidate altogether.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:41 pm

[quote="Discord"][/quote]

Only if you ignore the stupidity in putting all your power into a pony who...

1. Has never dealt with that much power

2. Has never even met Tirek

versus two ponies who have...

1. Have channeled massive amounts of power before (Luna as NMM, and Celestia by solo-wielding the elements, to say nothing of her "righteous anger" mode we see in the comics and the Two Sisters book)

2. Have experience fighting him.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 6:50 pm

The Doctor wrote:
Only if you ignore the stupidity in putting all your power into a pony who...

1. Has never dealt with that much power

2. Has never even met Tirek

versus two ponies who have...

1. Have channeled massive amounts of power before (Luna as NMM, and Celestia by solo-wielding the elements, to say nothing of her "righteous anger" mode we see in the comics and the Two Sisters book)

2. Fought Tirek in the past and have experience fighting him.


Point 2 is kind of moot since they had no intention of fighting Tirek directly, which was the only experience they seemed to have in confronting Tirek. The plan was to hide away the power until presumably another solution could be found.

Point 1 is more substantive. However, the princesses think Twilight can ultimately handle that kind of power at this point with all her magical experience, and they're proven to not be wrong on that point (eventually). They see the possibility of Twilight having an easier time hiding as better than any supposed benefits of Celestia/Luna's experience, which isn't OOC or anything; time and time again, Celestia has shown to have a lot of faith in Twilight.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:28 pm

Tailspin wrote:
I find it interesting that when a show like Korra has storytelling problems, it's immediately criticised and picked apart. As if slips up can't happen. When pony does it (and does it a lot) there's always a made up fan explanation as to why poor writing is totally part of the plan. Celestia is a chessmaster, can see the future/destiny... It's never "the writers slipped up here, mistakes happen".


Firstly, it ain't a "made-up fan explanation" if it appears in official merch. Just sayin'.

Secondly, of course we all know the writing isn't perfect. Working out in-universe rationalisations is just a lot more fun to do than sitting around complaining about writers.

And finally, yes, ponies get more of a pass from me than other shows might. I don't hold the storytelling in toy commercials to the same high standard that I do other shows, regardless of how good said toy commercials might be.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:43 am

Tailspin wrote:Other shows get criticised for the same stuff, but FiM apparently gets a free pass because PONIES.


This is true basically just as you've put it.

It comes down to what fans want a show to be, I think. We (or at least I, and people with my mindset) are still to this day enchanted by the idea of a My Little Pony show that's good enough not just to watch, but to obsess over. It's surprising. It's unlikely. It's still something you have to explain and defend to people if they ask what the fuck that cloud-and-rainbow sticker on your car is. And so I'm going to want to come up with justifications for anything clumsy that happens in it, because I don't want to feel like I've been wasting my life for the past four years following some dumb cartoon that isn't what I'd originally cracked it up to be. But a show like Korra—not having seen Korra, but just extrapolating—I'd come into it thinking it's already just another in a long list of contenders for my time, clearly aiming directly for my eyeballs, and if it decides not to be great I'm going to be a lot more merciless in trying to articulate good reasons to be disappointed in it.

I give Ponies a pass because :ponydrugs: is exactly right. I want it to keep being great.

(Fortunately, consistency of plot writing has never been the thing that I came to the show for; if an episode has a plot hole I'm not going to find my enjoyment of it diminished, because it's still cute ponies with good dialogue and funny jokes. But if, say, Mad Men or Breaking Bad suddenly has a completely implausible or poorly thought out episode in which I can't follow the logic of the plot threads, I'll honestly feel betrayed, because that's the whole reason I was watching it.)
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 12:55 am

Tailspin wrote:
I find it interesting that when a show like Korra has storytelling problems, it's immidiatly criticised and picked apart. As if slips up can't happen. When pony does it (and does it a lot) there's always a made up fan explenation as to why poor writing is totally part of the plan. Celestia is a chessmaster, can see the future/destiny... It's never "the writers slipped up here, mistakes happen".

Korra's story problems are less about plot (at least, from what I've seen) and more about pacing and character relations. They spend too much time introducing irrelevant teen dating drama that doesn't ultimately have any effect on the story, while the larger conflict is starved for episodes in a shorter season format.

If anything, it's closer to the complaints about pony bookend episodes being plot-heavy while mid-season is slice of life.

Also, Korra tends to aim for larger, more complicated conflicts: How do you deal with the troubles of the lower-class in an early Industrial Era society and a villain whose message is pretty truthful? Answer: Make him totally evil and deranged. Never mention your economic/social woes again.

I guess the closest comparison is, "Why does Amon have ultra-superpowers that only the Avatar should have?" The answer is basically, "He's just that amazing." It feels like the authors didn't put as much thought into him as they did every other part of their fantasy kung fu, which is close to how we argue about how god-like Celestia should be.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:04 am

Korra was just an example. What i was going for is that this show still keeps being put on a pedestal and when the writers screw up, it's not accepted as a screw up (as it would be with other shows), but instead people make up a justification for them and pretend that was the intent all along.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:07 am

Tailspin wrote:Korra was just an example. What i was going for is that this show still keeps being put on a pedestal and when the writers screw up, it's not accepted as a screw up (as it would be with other shows), but instead people make up a justification for them and pretend that was the intent all along.


I think that's a misunderstanding. I doubt anyone here is deluding themselves into believing the show makes perfect sense 100% of the time; it's just fun to try to make sense of gaps or flaws in the storytelling.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 1:20 am

Tailspin wrote:Korra was just an example. What i was going for is that this show still keeps being put on a pedestal and when the writers screw up, it's not accepted as a screw up (as it would be with other shows), but instead people make up a justification for them and pretend that was the intent all along.

Are they really, though?

Sometimes, things don't make sense, and if there's an easy justification that makes it all fit together, why not work it out? But I think this thread is proof that people can disagree pretty strongly on whether an explanation makes sense. The harder you have to work to make the pieces fit together, the more people will disagree with it.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:53 am

Headless Horse wrote:I give Ponies a pass because :ponydrugs: is exactly right. I want it to keep being great.

This. So much this. And everything else you said.

Seriously, enjoying this show is so much fun! And while I'll admit it has flaws and mistakes from time to time, dwelling on the negatives is decideledy not fun. Not for me So I choose not to make it a part of my pony enjoyment experience. I choose to keep having fun with this whole crazy thing. Simple as that. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:31 am

This.. was not my favorite episode. It's been pretty much said, but it definitely felt like an example of starting with a destination and then just arranging everything else in order to reach it. Beyond that, it had a lot of great moments, and I certainly don't dislike it. I just wish the plot didn't feel so clumsy and full of holes. I mean, the reasoning Celestia gives is that Tirek doesn't know about Twilight; but Discord certainly does, and they don't do anything about the window; it's really hard to explain that away.

Also, less of an issue, but I think this was as much tension as I ever want to see in MLP. I really prefer it as a more lighthearted show, and hope they don't ever try to take it even further than this episode.

SlateSlabrock wrote:We want to believe Celestia is playing eleven-dimensional chess at all times, even when changelings are beating her in battle, or she's sending Twilight dangerous magic that could destroy Team Elements o' Harmony, or when she gives Twilight strange, counter-productive orders for saving the Crystal Empire. But I think she simply trains her subjects as best she can, then places absolute faith in them to succeed. In normal matters of the heart, she's probably seen it all across fifty lifetimes and knows exactly what to say, but supervillains are always a unique challenge. She's not omniscient, she's not always right, but she can't ever stop trusting.


This might have gone better in the Canterlot Wedding thread (have we done that one? I think so but it's kind of bleeding together at this point), but seeing what Twilight could do while boosted with Alicorn magic actually does make me think Celestia might have been pulling her punches against Chrysallis (though possibly because she didn't want to cause collateral damage in a crowded room).

PaulloDEC wrote:Additionally, in the Journal of the Two Sisters it's strongly implied that a young Star Swirl time-travelled far enough into the future to be aware of Twilight. How far exactly, it doesn't let on. We've always assumed that Celestia's unwavering faith in Twilight had to do with some vague idea of destiny, but there's also the possibility that Star Swirl, and therefore Celestia have known what Twilight can (and perhaps will) do for a very long time already...


This is as good a theory as any. Another that got suggested on a forum I follow was that Celestia may have some limited prophetic ability; apparently if you dig enough Faust once stated that was her plan, and it explains a lot of things that have happened (like sending the friendship reports to Twilight in Return of Harmony, or attempting to reform Discord). One can even take the vision she got of Tirek draining a pony as hinting at this sort of ability.
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Postby Applepie (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:03 am

That was an awesome way of ending S4.
Pinkie Pie: So, you see this here? This, um, this is um, a big, round room. It's known for its roundness, and bigness, and did I mention that it's round?
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Oct 12, 2014 2:29 pm

Tailspin wrote:Korra was just an example. What i was going for is that this show still keeps being put on a pedestal and when the writers screw up, it's not accepted as a screw up (as it would be with other shows), but instead people make up a justification for them and pretend that was the intent all along.


I mean, I'm the biggest proponent of the 'Celestia was playing 11 dimensional chess in this episode' theory, at least on here, but I also openly say :

The real answer here is almost certainly Plot Holes, because that's something I've noticed with every McCarthy bookender (And EQG1) since the Wedding. Rainbow Rocks, however, did much much better in that department, so I'm much more optimistic S5 is going to be more Wedding and less Princess Twilight Sparkle.


However, because I like trying to keep the world as interesting and engaging for myself as possible, I try to find ways to reconcile plot holes, and the 'She was running 3 schemes at once, and this is how it went down' is the one way for it all to fit and keep me satisfied. And heck, it's a little fun to do, too, reading into it that much and finding links that may not have been there intentionally, but still keep things tied together.


To me, it really comes down to three points :
1. Sending Discord alone is risky at best, and negligent at worst : This one, if alone, I would accept as a mistake/misplaced desire to show trust & faith. But...
2. Discord knows how to open the box : He spends all the time with Twilight before his heel turn basically shoving it in her face. If he knows how to open it, and is trying to guide Twilight into opening it, it stands to reason Luna/Celestia may well have a pretty good idea too.
3. The 'Tirek doesn't know about Twilight' is completely, utterly illogical and so utterly full of holes as to make absolutely 0 sense at all unless there's something greater at work here. There's stained glass windows with Princess Twilight on them. Everypony in Equestria knows there is a 4th Princess. Discord, who is now Tirek's buddy-buddy, knows this.

Point 3 is the real clincher here, since it requires either chess playing, plot holes, or massive ineptitude. I'd love to see another interpretation that causes point 3 to make sense, but in months of turning it round in my head and talking the episode over with people, nothing has come up.

Now, she's totally fallible, as seen with not listening to Twilight during Wedding, or the fact she managed to turn her personal student into a neurotic bundle of nerves when it comes to potentially disappointing her, with Lesson Zero as the greatest, but hardly only, example of such.

And so, yea. The easy explanation is plot holes, and anyone who wants to use that I completely get. And were the only confusing issue sending Discord alone, I'd accept the 'mistakes were made' answer readily, even if I wouldn't really like it. But as is, I just can't buy the 'It was a mistake' reasoning in this case.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:27 am

Image
:flattered: :"Princess Luna raises the moon, Princess Celestia raises the sun, you protect the Crystal Empire, and all I seem to do is... smile and wave. What's my greater purpose in all of this?"


Image :"Your destiny's Your destiny's uncertain and that's sometimes hard to take. But, it will become much clearer with every new choice you make...."

...

Image
Know that your time is coming soon
Image As the sun rises,
so does the moon Image
Image As love finds a place in every heart

You are a princess;

you'll play your part


Image

:dwi: :"Your time will come."

:allright: :"That was fun!"
:speakest: :"Indeed! We shall have to do this again, some other time."

:sheepish: :"Wow. Uh. Hey, uh. That was great, but - uh - I don't mean to be a bother, but did you have to go through all that song and dance for all of that non-answer? I mean, I asked 'What's my greater purpose' and you could have said 'I guess we'll just have to wait and see' and that would have been enough."
:unenthused: :"Not everything is about you, Twilight Sparkle."
:gotcha: :"Luna!"
:areyousure: :"We are re-establishing ourselves in this story, so that the viewers may know the stakes we're under, should anything happen to us."
Image :"Knock on wood..."

:pcstare: :"Oh. While I have you here; an ancient cunning evil has surfaced once again in Equestria. He's an evil wizard that steals magic, and I'm certain he'll come after us."
Image :"But not to worry, I sent Discord after him."
:shock: *gasp* "Have you completely gone out of your -"
:gotcha: :"Nah! Nah! Don't worry Twilight. It's fine. It's FINE!"
:facehoof:
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So u should - never, ever go by the letter
U're so cool - Everything u do is success
Make the rules
Then break them all cuz u are the best


(Or just be making the best of this sloppy dog's breakfast of a situation. Damn Pinkie.)
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:24 pm

Rewatching part 1—

I like how Rarity offhandedly came to Spike's defense against Rainbow Dash right at the beginning. :vogue:

I wonder what "Maretonia" is supposed to evoke? The Duke and Duchess sure do have some unique body types; tiny little willowy unicorn with thin little pipe-cleaner legs, and then this big hulking brute of an earth pony. So I guess all races are represented in whatever land that is, but they don't seem to have invented lazy asset reuse there or something. :gotcha:

Whatever issues there are with plot holes, they only seem to crop up in Part 2; so far in Part 1 it all seems very solid. I still really appreciate that they hooked into the seemingly throwaway events of It's About Time to create the premise for this one.
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Postby Corpy (?) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 3:34 pm

Maretonia is probably a pun on Mauretania. Probably just using the pun for pun's sake rather than trying to represent any type of culture from that region.

Anyway, this episode showed why Twilight had to deal with the problem: Celestia is a giant fuckup who can't remember to destroy a stained glass window.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:07 pm

I mentioned back in the original thread that there's a lot here I like, but it's one of those, "Oh I wish they had just done this and this" episodes for me, which a lot of the 2 parters are. They are fun, but I can't help but wonder, would these have been better as a movie, with a 70-90 minute running time to flesh things out.

Mostly it just comes down to the handling of the alicorn princesses. So many of the two parters imply such a cool backstory for them, and yet it isn't explored. What was Cadance's backstory and connection to the Crystal Empire? What about exploring Celestia, Luna and period before Nightmare Moon? What about the 1000 years she ran Equestria alone? Now we have a cool G1 connection with Tirek and Scorpan and Starswirl and the Sisters and...well I will say I'm suspecting some more of that may show up in season 5.

But Celestia's plan...it was way too much of a quick way to get them, er, out of the way. Maybe if the episode had more time...

But first, about Discord: I loved seeing his redemption completed, but, and again I'm just repeating what I said back there but:

Discord's betrayal seems sudden and seems to make Celestia look bad until you take a second to step back. On one hand, you're putting the fate of Equestria in a former villain's hands. Furthermore, while Tirek's argument does seem to resonate with Discord, he did fall back into old hadbits rather quickly. What about his friendship with Fluttershy? And besides, if Tirek really did convince him, why does he not simply banish Tirek anyway and rule himself? Remmeber, the elements of Harmony are gone. The only thing keeping him from going full evil again is his friendship with Fluttershy.

And there's the key, so to speak. In Keep Calm and Flutter On, a tearful Discord says (paraphrasing): "I guess having friends means not getting what you want all the time." Although Tirek never calls him friend, those glass windows with them being chums and everything clearly indicate Discord sees Tirek as a friend. He only tells him about Twilight after he's assured of his trust, after all. Tirek is the bad influence, the 'friend' that lets Discord do all the destructive stuff he wants, but in the end betrays him. Discord thinks he has a way to have his cake and eat it to: To be a chaotic overlord and still have best buddies that don't resent him. By the end of the episode, he realizes how foolish he's been. I can buy Celestia not foreseeing something like that. Though I would have liked that handled more explicitly. Like Celestia asking him, Discord explaining the logic, and her shaking her head and warning him that Tirek is not to be trusted.

So how could Celestia' plan been handled better? Again I said something like this in the old thread, and amatuer fanfic hour can be annoying but:

Celestia tells Twilight to hide in Ponyville and find a way to open the box. Don't bother with Tirek not knowing about her because he's with Discord. Why not mention the box and make opening it an explicit request from Celestia? It's from the Tree of Harmony, maybe it holds the key to stopping Tirek. Plus even without the elements themselves, the Mane 6 are a force to be reckoned with.

So Twilight leaves, knowing the other 3 are going to give their best shot, even if it seems hopeless. As they do say in the Episode, against Tirek and Discord combined it seems unlikely...

Wait...

Tirek sent Discord by off himself while he confronted the Princesses alone.

Hold on now, what? Ah, Tirek for all his cleverness, doesn't trust if he doesn't have to. He's a total narcist really, and given the choice of facing down 3 alicorns alone and letting Celestia use Diplomacy (or say, Cadance's love spell) charms against a guy he might not totally be sure he can depend on seems like a chance. I mean, he looked a little guilty as Shining Armor called him traitor for a moment...Meh, better to depend on yourself, I'm sure is what he thought.

But if Twilight with the magic of 4 alicorns fought Tirek to a stalemate after absorbing the power of Discord, could the 3 have reasonably thought to stand up to him with their magic?

So let's have that happen, Tirek stops and sends off Discord alone. The princesses are stunned at his arrogance and ponder they might have a chance. Tirek walks in and Cadance gives him a good old blast of Love Beam. He staggers, but fights through because he's pure hate, and undeterred by Cadance showing him the love he'd be destroying if he has his way. But that distraction let's Luna dive him into a dream. There she tells him that she knows the path he has been on, appearing as Nightmare Moon, and there is no hope in it. He realizes he is dreaming and fights out once again. Now Celestia stands against him...and springs a trap. A well designed spell that he walks into in his weakended state. I'm thinking the stain glass window amplify energy into a cage of light, maybe they are made of crystal empire crystals, and thus channel energy? Anyways, he's basically beat until Discord saves him at the last minute when he returns. Celestia activates her final safeguard...and sends all of their alicorn magic across Equestria into Twilight, and a message via Spike. The episode pretty much goes as it did from there on out.

TL:DR, I would have loved more of a fight from the princesses and Discord's motives to be a little more explicit, though for me it was clear enough.

Also, I will say when Tirek absorbed Discord's power, I expected him to suddenly have trouble controlling it, and that Celestia was actually imploying a gambit that if Discord failed/betrayed them, his power would actually make Tirek unstable. Ah well.

Er, okay, I did find the fight, the redemption of Discord, Tirek's design, and that awesome castle pretty cool, even if Rainbow Power was a bit :gotcha:

Though I wish people would stop calling it a Deus ex machina. It's been foreshadowed all season and solving the box was central to the plot, I don't see how it can be seen as that, unless I just don't understand what that means.
Last edited by Ransom on Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:31 am

Watching the second half—you know, fooey on plot holes. This was simply a whole lot of rip-roaring fun. :amazing:

Honestly I think the only thing I would change about it is that I really wished they'd all turned the keys with their mouths. :memories:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:46 am

Headless Horse wrote:I wonder what "Maretonia" is supposed to evoke? The Duke and Duchess sure do have some unique body types; tiny little willowy unicorn with thin little pipe-cleaner legs, and then this big hulking brute of an earth pony. So I guess all races are represented in whatever land that is, but they don't seem to have invented lazy asset reuse there or something. :gotcha:


I get a strong Khal Drogo and Danyeris vibe from those two. Maybe it's just me.

And I'm with you. Sure, the whole thing kinda falls apart due to fridge logic, but hey, we got to see Twilight blow stuff up with her mind, the thing with the box paid off, rainbows and friendships win out at the end.

If you want to be mad at the writers for the "how could Celestia have conceivably thought Tirek wouldn't have heard of Twilight?" plot hole, fine. I won't argue much.

I will posit this, though: Of course Celestia figured Tirek would eventually find Twilight. Once he caught Celestia, Luna, and Cadence all magic-free, he'd go looking for wherever they put it, and he'd find Twilight eventually. Maybe she was just trying to buy Twilight a little extra time to get all that magic under control- which, as it turned out, she needed.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:14 am

Wylie wrote:And I'm with you. Sure, the whole thing kinda falls apart due to fridge logic, but hey, we got to see Twilight blow stuff up with her mind, the thing with the box paid off, rainbows and friendships win out at the end.


Blow stuff up convincingly with her mind, at that. I loved seeing her struggling to contain all that magic, and to keep it hidden from her friends; that was some damn fine visual storytelling and acting. And during the fight itself, her fury was 100% real and earned. Up till the point where the library was destroyed, she was just trying to keep out of Tirek's reach, trying to postpone any conflict; but once that seal was broken, it was personal, and Twilight wasn't going to pull any punches. It was like she suddenly went all Krav Maga, not trying to be graceful or balanced or fair or deliver a pithy one-liner or anything—just trying to land a killing blow as quickly and as decisively as possible. It's easy to dismiss the fight as "lol DBZ", but it's really something fundamentally different—whereas the DBZ thing is about threats and posturing and esoteric meaningless statistics, this put me more in the mind of the way Plinkett described Luke wailing away at Darth Vader with his lightsaber in Return of the Jedi. Rage. Desperation. Implacability. Emotion.

It's really a better fight scene than this show needed, if that makes sense. But if it was going to raise the stakes this high, nothing lesser would have fit the bill.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:36 am

I would love to have been a fly on the wall during the writer's retreat when they were blocking this story out.

:ponynet: "We have to get Twilight into 'righteous fury' mode. How do we do that?"

:smirk: "We... we have to kill books. It's the only way."

:gonkity: "What have we wrought?"




:spoiler: It's OK, I had off-site backups.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:12 am

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Dragon, dragon, rock the dragon!


I appreciate Twilight's existential crisis in the beginning of the episode. Throughout this season, she's been worried about moving away, losing her friends, and taking on a role she's not prepared for. The first song drives home the key to her personality -- Twilight always rises to the occasion, so if she's being separated from her friends by her crown, she wants that to mean something.

This episode hinges so heavily on Discord's betrayal that I keep wondering how to read his actions. Ultimately, I think he's a perfect example of a trickster god. He plays the field any way that benefits him, and he thinks he's above being betrayed. His defeat comes from his own hubris. But it's only when he is laid low that Twilight can truly believe him and extend her own friendship. Reminds me of Déjà Q.

I've already grumbled enough about the whole game of magic-go-seek and how unnecessary it is, but it's stil the weakest part of the episode. Grumble, grumble.

On first watch, I think I focused pretty heavily on how much time they spent on the big DBZ fight vs. the hurried "get to Ponyville don't talk to anyone figure something out okay bye" orders from Celestia, but this time through, I think the latter only really suffers from logic. The only other awkward part is how straight they play the key items unlocking the box. It's very... convenient. We all knew it was coming, and they hang a tiny lampshade on the whole process, but I wonder if there's a way to do that kind of storyline without making it feel so... RPG quest-ish.

It's interesting that the Mane Six are basically the only ponies in Equestria who seem capable of working through the pain after their magic has been extracted. Their eyes are even back to normal after Twilight gets magic-vacuumed:
Image

Image
:twismug: Together! I think we all need to do this together!
:yikes: Uh... should I step out while you... do your thing?

Random notes:
  • Twilight bows to the "the Duke and Duchess of Maretonia." A Princess doesn't bow! :applejargh:
    I am still really curious what sort of confidential international politics was going on there.
  • Cadance really needs another chance to sing.
  • I do hope they do some renovating on that crystal castle in season 5. If nothing else, lay down some cushions on those rocky thrones. :nnngh:

Ransom wrote:But if Twilight with the magic of 4 alicorns fought Tirek to a stalemate after absorbing the power of Discord, could the 3 have reasonably thought to stand up to him with their magic?

I think the idea was that Tirek had to have equal or greater magic to steal any one pony's magic. Unicorns were easy, then pegasi, then earth ponies. He might have been able to absorb any one alicorn's magic at that point, so giving it all to Twilight is like building one 40-foot-high wall instead of four 10-foot-high ones.

I agree that seeing the other princesses fight would've been awesome, but it sounds like it'd add another 10 minutes to an already crowded story. :sheepish:
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:23 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:This episode hinges so heavily on Discord's betrayal that I keep wondering how to read his actions. Ultimately, I think he's a perfect example of a trickster god. He plays the field any way that benefits him, and he thinks he's above being betrayed. His defeat comes from his own hubris. But it's only when he is laid low that Twilight can truly believe him and extend her own friendship. Reminds me of Déjà Q.

The Lord of Chaos doth do the trickster role very well, and seeing them driving this arc to its end here got me excited.

SlateSlabrock wrote:It's interesting that the Mane Six are basically the only ponies in Equestria who seem capable of working through the pain after their magic has been extracted. Their eyes are even back to normal after Twilight gets magic-vacuumed

I believe that they're simply showing the magic of friendship here, so although they lack their innate magic, they're no longer completely devoid of it unlike the recently drained Twilight.

But hey. It's just a theory. A Pony Theory. Thanks for watching.
Image

SlateSlabrock wrote:Twilight bows to the "the Duke and Duchess of Maretonia." A Princess doesn't bow! :applejargh:

I think this is just a sign of respect for international visitors. Even if they're not, you know, the Emperor or something doesn't mean they shouldn't feel welcomed.
SlateSlabrock wrote:Cadance really needs another chance to sing.

Luna as well. Both characters sang with excellence here, and it's got me wanting for more.
SlateSlabrock wrote:I do hope they do some renovating on that crystal castle in season 5. If nothing else, lay down some cushions on those rocky thrones. :nnngh:

I'm just hoping to see more of it in general. I mean, it's a massive building, and we've seen pretty much none of it so far.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:42 am

Marioland1 wrote:I believe that they're simply showing the magic of friendship here, so although they lack their innate magic, they're no longer completely devoid of it unlike the recently drained Twilight.

That's how I saw it, too. Their friendship had already started restoring each other's power, at least enough to put the life back in their eyes. I mean, I highly doubt it was an animation error, considering how deliberate it seemed.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:46 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:I agree that seeing the other princesses fight would've been awesome, but it sounds like it'd add another 10 minutes to an already crowded story. :sheepish:


Not just that, but let's be honest: we've already seen Celestia and Luna in a knock-down drag-out brawl once this season. (We've even seen Cadance fighting.) If they went into horn-lasers mode again here, it would only serve to make us all more :-/ than we already were.

I really think the writers go to great lengths to avoid retreading the same ground; they always have. Sometimes it even gets to the point of being distracting or leading to a plot hole, when they're so obsessed with doing something original that they miss an obvious route that would have been more predictable. But frankly it's always been one of the things I've respected most about the show (i.e. always handling the friendship letter differently every single time), and I'll happily take it over a bunch of lazy rehashes of the same plot formulas over and over.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:25 pm

And on the subject of plot holes, let me just say that they sure as hell do remember to cover it when it counts. Probably the best moment in this whole two-parter is when Tirek's fireball is incoming, the first thing Twilight does is to teleport inside and grab Owlowiscious, before leaping clear. They didn't have to remember him; we could have assumed he was somewhere else at the time or something, especially if they'd hastily pasted him in during the song at the end. Or just shown him flying around in the wreckage right after it happened. But they made the effort to turn it into a beautiful wordless character moment for Twilight, where you're not just overwhelmed with the magnitude of what just happened, you're also going "oh yeah, holy shit, the owl :starity: ... holy shit she remembered :allears: "
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