S06E17: The Times They Are A Changeling

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Re: S06E17: The Times They Are A Changeling

Postby Aramek (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:11 pm

Gloomy Rube wrote:Note: I'm not going to consider a changeling episode to be good until chrysalis gets a redemption episode. :-I

Nooooo, she needs to stay awesome and evil and want to conquer and subjugate all she surveys forever.
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Postby LingEarth (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:12 pm

That was great! They're really doing well with Spike this season. :awesomedash:

"Sunshine, sunshine, ladybugs awake" Ah, they brought that back. I was starting to think they'd forgotten about it. :allright:

Has Spike had a song before?
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:16 pm

Aramek wrote:Nooooo, she needs to stay awesome and evil and want to conquer and subjugate all she surveys forever.


Ruling the world and being nice aren't antitheses. :glare:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:18 pm

I don't think Spike has ever had a solo song aside from his rendition of the Cloudsdale anthem. :ponder:

If Thorax is going to be a recurring character, I hope he makes at least one visit to Ponyville and Canterlot. It would be interesting to see Celly/Luna's reaction to him, not to mention the rest of the Mane Six, but I suppose they'd take thier cue from Twilight's acceptance. :allears:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:18 pm

LingEarth wrote:Has Spike had a song before?

Well, he sang in "Equestria Games", but that probably doesn't count.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:29 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:This episode is hard for me to judge fairly because nothing has gotten as much fan attention over the years as changelings. There have been some really good stories about them (and plenty of terrible ones), but 22 minutes really limits what they can do.

This is where we need someone like Sidotsy to give an impression, someone who had very little exposure to the fandom's works (especially during the second summer).
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:45 pm

too late, sidotsy read my fanfics

edit: also a lot of other fanfics
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:52 pm

That was a cute and fun episode. Song wasn't too good but it was a Spike song and thus rad in principle. We learned a little about Changelings and we have someone who saved Spike's life twice.

This is MLP where redemption and not everyone being irredeemably evil is a thing. Where comic book characters with No Killing rules is actually legitimate.

The whole point of this damn show I am 30+ years too old for. Where good stuff happens and being good makes more good happen.









(fanfic is not good though. Hth. Shipping? Even more bad. :twiright: )
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:57 pm

Captain Rufus do you just like sit on the porch yelling at dang kids who like them fanfics because I think you're the only holdout from 2011 ponygoons
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:06 pm

:-/ I know you ponies have been through a lot. But when you find the time, I'd rather not spend the rest of this winter
:twonk: TIED TO THIS FUCKING COUCH!!!

• Spike has a stuffed Rarity! After the body pillow episode, this seems almost wholesome. Almost.
• You can't not have tumbleweeds.
• Wow, Shining Armor is dressed for full battle. Is that hunk seeing anybody? Oh, right.
• I never get tired of the ladybug song, it's so dorky. :allears:
• Even the windows are shaped like hearts!
• Oh no, Spike wasn't planning on having to know stuff.
• I bet this is all a feint and when they get back to Ponyville everyone's been cocooned.
• Sometimes the ponies have to work very hard to make friends. Spike, on the other hand, gets Wants To Be Friends Changeling dropped into his lap. Spike's life is easy mode.
• I take that back, Kevin is TOTALLY a trap. Don't fall for this guy, Spike!
• Neat design for Crystal Hoof.
• "I'm sure that in the current security crisis, we can trust this new pony no one's ever seen before!"
• Aw, they think Crystal Hoof is a real pony somewhere. :fluttersmith:
• Changelings can turn into rocks!
• A song?! A Spike song??!?!?!
• Nice to see Starlight again, even if she didn't really do anything.

Annnnnd ... it was fine! :party: Pretty simple, not much comedy, but Spike gets an arc and everyone learns about friendship, and that's the MLP:FiM mission statement.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:08 pm

Gloomy Rube wrote:Captain Rufus do you just like sit on the porch yelling at dang kids who like them fanfics because I think you're the only holdout from 2011 ponygoons


Ya damn right I do. So get me my walker and some Werthers Originals. :applejargh:
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:14 pm

I enjoyed this episode quite a bit (for a Spike episode) until Spike's song. It made me cringe and the schmaltz afterwards more so with the melodramatic "I'M YOUR FRIEND TOO!". I'm not a fan of that.

Also what I noticed is that the kindness at the end didn't make Thorax hiss and turn into bestial behavior. Was it a deliberate inconsistency (because he isn't that hungry anymore and can control it to some extend) or was it an oversight?
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:15 pm

LingEarth wrote:Has Spike had a song before?

He sang backup for Twilight in her Failure Song back in S3. But this his his first Big Number, with a spotlight and everything! :shepspike:

I liked the wordplay of "believe a changeling can change", but it's not actually true. Thorax didn't change, he was hatched that way.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 8:44 pm

Mechanical Ape wrote:He sang backup for Twilight in her Failure Song back in S3. But this his his first Big Number, with a spotlight and everything! :shepspike:


Spike has bad luck with spotlights. :eep:

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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:20 pm

adiwan wrote:Also what I noticed is that the kindness at the end didn't make Thorax hiss and turn into bestial behavior. Was it a deliberate inconsistency (because he isn't that hungry anymore and can control it to some extend) or was it an oversight?

I figured it was the former, perhaps also combined with a bit of him trying really hard this time to maintain his self-control.
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Postby Factory Factory (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:25 pm

Thorax is a strange name. Imagine your name were Torso. That is how the bughorse do.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:30 pm

Factory Factory wrote:Thorax is a strange name. Imagine your name were Torso. That is how the bughorse do.

Spike panicked and referred to Thorax's pony form as Crystal Hoof, a name that everyone else seemed to think was perfectly normal. What if your name were Skin Foot?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:30 pm

I'm thinking Thorax might have been consuming just a little bit of love or energy from the ponies, Flurry Heart included, just to sustain himself and control his aggressive instincts. I'm sure Cadence will see that he gets all the energy he requires, if he's staying in the Crystal Empire. :allright:
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 10:57 pm

The question of how a Changeling can eat love without hurting is a fair one. I guess if it's freely given and plentiful it's okay.

I wonder, would a friendly channeling be a natural extrovert? Feeding off the good energy of others? Would he start to starve if the general mood of the community turned sour?
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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:09 pm

One little touch I liked was Twilight flapping her wings in excitement talking about her quill set. It's little touches that make a show great.
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Postby Sidotsy (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:11 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:This is where we need someone like Sidotsy to give an impression, someone who had very little exposure to the fandom's works (especially during the second summer).

I really liked it, I thought Thorax was super cute (except for the weird annoying hissing fits). The end was sooooo rushed though. I would have much rather this had been a two-parter so we could have gotten to know the bug more.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:38 pm

This is so adorable! :awesomedash: Forget everything else about the epsiode, we finally got to see Chrysalis's hive nursery! And oh my gosh, baby changelings are so cute! :gotcha: Who did what now about a song? Doesn't matter, baby changelings are super cute! This episode fulfilled most of what I wanted to see. :v:

My prediction is that Chrysalis invades at the season finally and Thorax stops her. But she doesn't redeem because she is just awesome like that.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:08 am

If I can changeling... and you can changeling... EVERYBODY CAN CHANGELING!
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:28 am

Captain Rufus wrote:(fanfic is not good though. Hth. Shipping? Even more bad. :twiright: )


It's true.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:57 am

Lhet wrote:A "changeling can change" in kinda a weird line.
But it was a good episode. :evil:


It was a good line. Good wordplay, good concept. Except, as noted above, Kevin didn't actually change. :v:



E: Aaaaa fuk :twonk:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:01 am

Anyway, I think the only tweak this episode needed was to cut like 30 seconds of exposition and backstory from the cold open (seriously, we don't need a recap of Spike's history with the Crystal Empire every single time we go there, nor does Starlight's commentary on her friendship studies feel organic at all) and instead use that time at the end, right after the song, to have a resolution plot point for Thorax and his hissing fits. Have him getting it under control when confronted by the baby, proving he's not a threat, and have that be what finally wins everyone over. That would tie everything up nicely.

In fact that seems like such an obviously better way to go that I suspect the episode was originally written that way but got chopped up in editing so that the plot resolution at the end had to get cut in favor of exposition that the story editor thought the audience would need.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:01 am

There's a lot in this episode that feels like setup with no payoff, which gives it a feel like Part 1 of a two-parter. I don't think it was planned as one, it's just that it felt like it (to me) on account of all the stuff that gets introduced and not used. Instinctively I think "Oh, this comes into play later," but after 22 minutes the credits roll and there is no later and I've still got unchecked items on my Payoff Checklist. None of which were bad in themselves; just a little baffling from a plot-thriftiness standpoint.

For instance, it's always fun to see Starlight, and it makes sense that if she visits the Crystal Empire then Sunburst will be there; but these two characters didn't actually do anything. Nothing that happened in the Crystal Hoof scenes advanced anything either, or made a difference in the climax, and that was the whole middle part. And then all the exposition as mentioned elsewhere.

It wasn't a very comedic episode, which in itself is fine, but the thing is that if you're going for jokey then you can always justify a scene's existence by saying "this is funny", and if you're not going for jokey then that's one less justification available to you.

I would have liked way more focus on the resolution, and I also would've liked more buildup of the reasons leading to Spike's decision to throw Kevin under the bus. (He's supposed to be worried about ruining his fame, I think, but earlier scenes seem to say that he's uncomfortable with his fame?) So there is definitely room for other things the episode could have had, to make it work better, in place of the things it had instead.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:22 am

Mechanical Ape wrote:There's a lot in this episode that feels like setup with no payoff, which gives it a feel like Part 1 of a two-parter. I don't think it was planned as one, it's just that it felt like it (to me) on account of all the stuff that gets introduced and not used. Instinctively I think "Oh, this comes into play later," but after 22 minutes the credits roll and there is no later and I've still got unchecked items on my Payoff Checklist. None of which were bad in themselves; just a little baffling from a plot-thriftiness standpoint.

For instance, it's always fun to see Starlight, and it makes sense that if she visits the Crystal Empire then Sunburst will be there; but these two characters didn't actually do anything. Nothing that happened in the Crystal Hoof scenes advanced anything either, or made a difference in the climax, and that was the whole middle part. And then all the exposition as mentioned elsewhere.

It wasn't a very comedic episode, which in itself is fine, but the thing is that if you're going for jokey then you can always justify a scene's existence by saying "this is funny", and if you're not going for jokey then that's one less justification available to you.

I would have liked way more focus on the resolution, and I also would've liked more buildup of the reasons leading to Spike's decision to throw Kevin under the bus. (He's supposed to be worried about ruining his fame, I think, but earlier scenes seem to say that he's uncomfortable with his fame?) So there is definitely room for other things the episode could have had, to make it work better, in place of the things it had instead.

I hear your concerns and I want to counter it with... super cute baby changelings!
:yay:

They hiss when you love them!
:v:
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 3:49 am

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Postby !saak (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:48 am

Oh dang, after watching (and turning off) last week's episode this is a huge breath of fresh air :awesomedash:

An actually interesting conflict with personal stakes :yay:

Good ep, deffo higher tier for this season.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:41 pm

So the song was kinda cringey and yeah the ending was kind of a mess.

Definitely the weakest Spike episode yet this season. But it had the Sunshine Sunshine dance sooooooo I'm good.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:52 pm

I loved those two guards so much. They were funny, had great expressions, and I loved their voices.
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Postby LardLad3545 (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 2:36 pm

Episode was... pretty good. I'm always a sucker for stories that deal with putting aside deep-seated... uh... biases(?) I guess... to make way for acceptance. My problem seems to be a common one, judging by other comments, which is the pacing. I'd argue for just taking the song out completely in order to make time for a logical verbal argument as opposed to "let's just sing our problems away." MLP has always been one of my exceptions as far as songs in shows and movies go, but even MLP can't convert me to liking songs that fill out critical story elements. Feh, whatever. Still a good episode, some good dialogue, torso horse is pretty endearing, and things are good!

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I know my profile says I joined in 2012, but I started MLP in mid-2011. Can I join you on your porch? Never touched a fanfic either.

Headless Horse wrote:Anyway, I think the only tweak this episode needed was to cut like 30 seconds of exposition and backstory from the cold open (seriously, we don't need a recap of Spike's history with the Crystal Empire every single time we go there, nor does Starlight's commentary on her friendship studies feel organic at all) and instead use that time at the end, right after the song, to have a resolution plot point for Thorax and his hissing fits. Have him getting it under control when confronted by the baby, proving he's not a threat, and have that be what finally wins everyone over. That would tie everything up nicely.

In fact that seems like such an obviously better way to go that I suspect the episode was originally written that way but got chopped up in editing so that the plot resolution at the end had to get cut in favor of exposition that the story editor thought the audience would need.


I've talked about it in the past, and I'll make the argument again. I really do believe the MLP world is robust enough and characters diverse and important enough to support a serialized episode structure. Or at the very least (and much much much less possibly) a 42 minute format. Exposition is definitely not an MLP specific issue though. A lot of shows assume the viewer has no idea what the hell is going on and wastes time re-explaining everything. Agents of Shields has a mild tendency to do this, though it isn't terrible. Yet another reason I'm such a geek for The West Wing. TWW assumes you still have a few neurons firing and tends to not hold your hand most of the way.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 6:50 pm

This was, while not at the same high level as last week's tour de force, an genuinely good Spike episode. I enjoyed that he was a kid in this one, making mistakes, but eventually taking responsibility. The reversal of opinion in the end was a little fast as others have noted, but you can't argue with the magic of songs. Not in this universe, at least.

Ransom wrote:The question of how a Changeling can eat love without hurting is a fair one. I guess if it's freely given and plentiful it's okay.


If Chrysalis is to be redeemed at some point, this would not be the worst way to do it:

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:28 pm

DerFurShur wrote:Definitely the weakest Spike episode yet this season.

...which isn't hard, since it's the second Spike episode this season. :v:

(Although I saw people elsewhere arguing that this episode was better because it allowed Spike to be a fallible kid, while Gauntlet of Fire made him "too mature.")

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You don't have to like anything, but I'll say that this is the only show for which I've bothered to read fan stories, and, as long as one seeks out quality stories and doesn't go hunting for things one will hate, I've been pleasantly surprised.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 9:32 pm

Complaining about Spike becoming too mature after six seasons seems bizarre but then again some people were fine with Dash regressing last episode and tried to justify it so whatever.
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Postby VGAddict (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:39 pm

Spike seems to be gaining fans this season.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:12 pm

DerFurShur wrote:Complaining about Spike becoming too mature after six seasons seems bizarre but then again some people were fine with Dash regressing last episode and tried to justify it so whatever.


It's less that I want him to act immature than that Gauntlet of Fire just made him come off as improbably wise and mature about everything. I mean, he went right to "in order to protect my friends, I have to win this life risking challenge and then stay here in the Dragon Lands, leaving everyone I love" with not only no hesitation, but not even any regrets. He just went straight to that conclusion. And Twilight decided to support him and cheer him on. Yeah, it was obvious to the audience that wasn't happening, but it was a pretty crazy choice for a character who's ostensibly still a kid to make so easily; I would have expected some major agonizing on it even from one of the Mane 6.

So yeah, I kinda did like how this episode handled it, that Spike was initially unwilling to stand up to everyone, and had to do some soul searching to find the courage.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:22 pm

Incoming baby pictures!

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And the cutest one of all. :allears:

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:29 pm

Hearts cutie mark
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An unusually-colored Crystal Pony
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Spike is very popular.
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I wonder what this cutie mark is supposed to be.
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Diabetes
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Baby bubble
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Once you see the smiley faces on the guards' uniforms, you can't un-see them.
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Nice effects on the tunnel as Spike slides down into the cave.
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Snowdrop
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Fiiiiigaro!
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