S05E12: Amending Fences

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Re: S05E12: Amending Fences

Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:58 am

Image

"Oh, you know, I just thought we could catch up!"
"For what purpose?"

:awesomedash:

Also loved Twilight's new Bubble of Silence spell, and how Moondancer pops it as a silent "piss off" gesture
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:03 am

"That's one of Hecarte's methods."

I first heard this as some sort of Greek-ish philosopher name: "Hecarte"

Then it dawned on me that it's probably spelled "Hay Cart" :v:
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Postby Factory Factory (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:09 am

Hay Cart's Method is a reference to Descartes' method and may be stupidly clever/cleverly stupid - that's the work in which "I think, therefore I am" appeared, and Twilight learns the book by becoming the book, at which point the book can be said to think and Twilight can be said to be the book.
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:52 am

Holy wow. :ponydrugs: That was just as beautiful as I wanted it to be. I have been Twilight, and I have been Moondancer, and god, the whole thing was just so piercingly relatable. It was an episode with a straightforward premise, yet somehow it was packed with surprises--like real life-- because Larson did such a good job of capturing the messiness and complications of human relationships. I got chills from Moondancer's breakdown, which roared up out of nowhere in the way feelings do when you've let them fester beneath the surface for too long.

We've been talking about how we are racking up alternate-universe Twilights left and right, but really, the character Moondancer most reminds me of is Lightning Dust. Lightning Dust, too, was a mirror of one of the Mane 6, a "what if FIM had never happened" foil to show us what Rainbow Dash might have turned into, and Wonderbolts Academy brought Rainbow face to face with her past self and gave her a chance to prove how much she'd grown. I see so many similarities between that episode and Amending Fences.
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:55 am

Discovered while looking for Moondancer screenshots:

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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:07 am

I probably should have watched the first episode of season 1 again before watching this, was the Lyra connection known before this episode?

Moondancer's rant near the end was pretty intense, with her waving that big stick around for some added menace. One of the most emotionally intense moments of the entire show I think.

Moondancer's sister was suffering from the same flyaway hair problem that she was, I thought they'd done that to emphasise that Moondancer had thrown herself into her work at the expense of everything else including hair care but it must just run in the family. :gotcha:

I take the Starlight Glimmer cameo as confirmation that she'll be back at the end of the season, they wouldn't have thrown her in there otherwise, it's not like we see backround appearances from Chrysalis or anyone like that. :evil:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:49 am

The Doctor wrote:

It's been a running gag on this forum for years more so than a real debate.


Yes, Larson did a pretty skillful job of retconning it to be "for".




:v:
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Postby Strangest Letter (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:51 am

Really glad I never ran into that "running gag" until now. :-I
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:05 am

Daring Do wrote:Anyway, let's see. For a little there, after Minuette first showed up, I was worried it was going to turn out her old friends were just interested in her new royal status and that the mane 6 are her "true friends". Luckily for Twilight, it didn't end up going down that road, but I wonder whether they actually wanted the viewers to think that for a minute?


They did tease that a bit, as well as teasing a couple of other directions for it to go; I'm pretty sure it was deliberate, to keep us guessing. Was Minuette really that glad to see her, ready to put water under the bridge and just the kind of person to genuinely be happy to see that weird nerdy girl from college show up on her doorstep? Or was she just in awe of having a princess give her the time of day, and really really into having some photo-ops with someone from her hometown who made it big? It was ambiguous at the time (Minuette barely let Twilight get a word in edgewise to even tell her why she was there), but that's important for there to be some tension and mystery.

But even with that bit resolved, they still kept teasing little hints that the three Canterlot friends might have had less than pure motives. When they're in the donut shop, there's still tension leading up to Twilight's apology, and the feeling that they might throw it back in her face or come up with some kind of devastatingly catty revelation in return. And they actually kinda did:

:crack: "Sure, it might've stung a little bit when you ran off to Ponyville without saying goodbye, but it's not like we weren't used to that from you!"

That's a little dagger of passive-aggressiveness that's got to hit Twilight pretty hard; she points out later that she's all too aware of how many poignant reminders of what a bad friend she was keep popping up, and this one is basically "Yeah you were a jerk, but you just didn't know any better, poor little babe in the woods", which is a hell of a thing for her to take in stride as the supposed Friendship Expert of the kingdom. (But it also points out how bad she still is at a lot of social graces, like using straight-up bribery and a bait-and-switch as a means to browbeat Moondancer into submission. Pinkie is totally not talking out of turn when she gently mocks Twilight's crappiness at the job she's supposedly destined for; Pinkie if anyone is the true Friendship Master. Even if she herself occasionally gets things wrong, like Cranky.)
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 2:15 pm

Oh! One thing I keep forgetting to mention here: Moondancer mirrors Twilight's line in the first episode about "a bunch of CRAZY PONIES trying to make friends" when Twilight's bothering her in the library. A nice touch.

Daring Do wrote:The trio - Minuette in particular - seemed annoyingly giggly to me. And that voicing. No one else looks to have mentioned this, so maybe it's just me, but it felt like they dropped out of an earlier gen of MLP. Or at least what I imagine the earlier gens to be like, since I never looked into them... Could have been intended, or (probably less likely) the VAs thought FiM was like those. Are these VAs new or did they do work on FiM before?

I had the same "sounds like G3" thought, but it doesn't bother me in this particular case. Everything about the three of them says they're really friendly, nice ponies, and they project that enthusiasm when they're around others. They tried to drag both Twilight and Moondancer out of their shells, and they're especially happy that it eventually worked (for one of them, at least).

Minuette might have bad days when she's not cheerfulness incarnate, but not the day an old acquaintance shows up to visit. Unsurprising she's pals with Pinkie (and apparently knows exactly how to handle Pinkie's shopping list).

PictishBeast wrote:Also loved Twilight's new Bubble of Silence spell, and how Moondancer pops it as a silent "piss off" gesture

Not silent enough for the other library patrons. :gotcha:

:excite: I'm going to get so many complaints pinned on you that you have to leave the library and talk to me!

MurdER_weapOn '78 wrote:I probably should have watched the first episode of season 1 again before watching this, was the Lyra connection known before this episode?

Only inasmuch as Lyra was in the wedding episode. I can't help but imagine an awkward conversation after this episode.
:excite: Lyra! Hey there! I just realized I haven't spoken much to my old Canterlot friends since I moved here!
:sheepish: So easy to lose track of old friends when you move away, right?
Image Twilight, I've lived here as long as you have.

I take the Starlight Glimmer cameo as confirmation that she'll be back at the end of the season, they wouldn't have thrown her in there otherwise, it's not like we see backround appearances from Chrysalis or anyone like that. :evil:

If you don't see her, it means she's doing a good job. :evil:

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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:10 pm

The hyper giggliness of Minuette et al. fits the story well, since although they're clearly very nice and well-meaning, it's easy to see how the introverts, Old Twilight and Old/New Moondancer, would have difficulty warming to them.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:33 pm

That was the feeling I got, too. I felt like they and Lyra (in past episodes we've seen how excitable she is, after all) are supposed to be like the more outgoing Pinkie Pie, Rarity, Rainbow Dash, and Applejack in that regard. Meanwhile, Twilight is still Twilight, and Moondancer is about as outgoing as Fluttershy and much less nice.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:34 pm

I thought that Twilight's friends were meant to be a parallel of the Main Six in a sense. Look at the first episode and compare their behaviour, I think there's some similarities.
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Postby Lorce (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 3:56 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:Only inasmuch as Lyra was in the wedding episode.

Lyra was also the one who waved at Twilight when she ran past her after meeting the trio in the first episode. :-I
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Postby Throbulator (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:09 pm

Am I the only who found Minuette and the others to be a bit too cheerful?
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:09 pm

Moondancer looked a bit different in the comic:

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(From "The Fall of Sunset Shimmer.")

Also, the same issue shows the "other five" hanging out together when trying to get Sunset to join them for lunch, Lyra being the fifth. Not too shabby of a prediction considering it was written back in 2013.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:39 pm

Throbulator wrote:Am I the only who found Minuette and the others to be a bit too cheerful?


I thought they were bubbly/excitable but not overly cheerful--there's a funny bit at the Awkward Dinner where Minuette is "we're having fun, right?" and the other two go ehhhhhhhhh :pinkieshrug:

Seven Seas wrote:Discovered while looking for Moondancer screenshots:

Image


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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:17 pm

:facehoof: What am I going to do, Spike...how can I ever make things right with Moondancer?

:here: The only way to do that would be to go back in time...and accept the invitation.

:twismug: Spike, that's a perfect idea...start calculations for a time warp.

:yikes: Twilight...I was kidding...

:twiright: Well, I'm not.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:21 pm

:gotcha: Ah, but then the "for the want of a nail" comes into play there.

:shock: H-how did you know?

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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 5:48 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:That was the feeling I got, too. I felt like they and Lyra (in past episodes we've seen how excitable she is, after all) are supposed to be like the more outgoing Pinkie Pie, Rarity, Rainbow Dash, and Applejack in that regard. Meanwhile, Twilight is still Twilight, and Moondancer is about as outgoing as Fluttershy and much less nice.


Fluttershy in a Bad Place is right up there with Moondancer With A Stick. Putting Your Hoof Down, anyone? That's basically what happened- at that critical moment of reaching out to make her first real friend that didn't have pages, she gets utterly shot down by Twilight without a second thought.

And it festers. For years. I'd have actually applauded it if she'd at least actually poked Twilight a few times with that stick at the end, because forgetting so much about your old school friends that it takes Spike to remind you what their names were is a real sad state of affairs for someone called the Princess of Friendship. Larson even lets Pinkie call her out on it for the audience, for which I thank our fourth-wall emissary to the pony realm. :)
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:19 pm

What's next, Larson -- Twist calls out Apple Bloom for ignoring her for 4 seasons? :iamapony:




(please do this for real)
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Postby Corpy (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:39 pm

Minuette is a fucking dork and I love it. I've always really liked her color set and having a personality attached to it now is awesome.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:23 pm

Wayoshi wrote:I'd act for a :disgust: smiley if not for the shadow gradient...

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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:45 pm

^^^ That's great, I'm saving it.


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What's up with the cobweb though, Minuette? She's cheerful because she never worries about housekeeping.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:53 pm

^ - Yeah, I was wondering about that. Cobwebs was all over this episode: Twilight's old room, what little we saw inside Minuette's house, and Moondancer's place...
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:55 pm

I think what amazes me the most is how this episode was able to take the tiny detail of Twilight skipping Moondancer's party, originally thrown in to establish what an unintentional jerk she was, and develop it into such a huge thing. If we're getting stuff like that then I actually would not be surprised to see the case of Apple Bloom and Twist referenced in a future episode.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:57 pm

You know what this reminds me of? In the first episode of Futurama, you can see Nibbler's shadow in the backgrounds of the cryogenics room. Several seasons later, it was revealed that Nibbler intentionally pushed Fry into the tube and have him frozen.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:12 pm

Mechanical Ape wrote:What's up with the cobweb though, Minuette? She's cheerful because she never worries about housekeeping.

Since we see so little of it, they probably just stuck a background asset in there and it happened to have a cobweb within view. There's a book back there, too, and the whole thing is pretty dark. I bet the inside of Minuette's house is exactly the same as either Twilight's or Moondancer's; someone could probably find the same frame elsewhere in the episode and do an overlay job.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:16 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:Oh! One thing I keep forgetting to mention here: Moondancer mirrors Twilight's line in the first episode about "a bunch of CRAZY PONIES trying to make friends" when Twilight's bothering her in the library. A nice touch.

There's also "dusty old books" referencing Celestia's letter
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 8:55 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:Since we see so little of it, they probably just stuck a background asset in there and it happened to have a cobweb within view. There's a book back there, too, and the whole thing is pretty dark. I bet the inside of Minuette's house is exactly the same as either Twilight's or Moondancer's; someone could probably find the same frame elsewhere in the episode and do an overlay job.

Or they were trying to tease "is she friend or is she foe...?" and then there wasn't any reason to change the inside of the house to clarify that she's not a slob.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:03 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I think what amazes me the most is how this episode was able to take the tiny detail of Twilight skipping Moondancer's party, originally thrown in to establish what an unintentional jerk she was, and develop it into such a huge thing. If we're getting stuff like that then I actually would not be surprised to see the case of Apple Bloom and Twist referenced in a future episode.


This kind of thing is exactly what can get tiresome if overused or used clumsily, though. I've seen all kinds of shows where some little throwaway gag gets built on and built on until it's a major indispensable part of the plot; sometimes this works out well (sometimes requiring pure bullheadedness on the part of the writers; Derpy comes to mind), and sometimes it goes really really poorly for all concerned. Like every appearance of the Borg in Star Trek post-TNG, where they are contractually obligated to have someone shoot a few of them, followed by shooting one without effect and saying "They've adapted". Or, lord help me, any of a dozen things I could mention from Family Guy.

The latter is usually the domain of bad fanfiction, though, and to my mind it's actually one of the defining traits of bad fanfiction: someone who isn't all that capable of coming up with fun ideas on his own treasuring up every little creative bauble from the canon and raising it up on a pedestal, like it's the center of its own little grandiose universe. Like nothing can just be a throwaway gag, one of a hundred the writer came up with that afternoon; it has to become the basis of a freaking religion like a commandment against eating shellfish. One fanfic that was recently being discussed in PPPP had Twilight turning white with flaming hair to illustrate that she was mad—like that's something she just always does, like it's a feature of her expression set like dimples or a honking laugh. As opposed to just being a fun piece of over-the-top animation in an overly cartoony episode.

This Moondancer situation had every opportunity to be a tiresome case of fanfictionitis, where someone poring over the early episode transcripts like scripture noticed a hook for a story in some expository scene involving characters we never even see and decided to turn it into the basis for World-Changing Events, like (say) Trixie feeling the need for revenge and finding a secret power amulet and coming back to Ponyville bent on world domination. But instead it was handled with the tastefulness of the return of Flutterguy: a one-off gag that feels just real enough to have stuck in the characters' consciousness so they can hark back to it in a later adventure and demonstrate some well-earned character development.
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Postby theGECK (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:25 pm

This is the first episode from this season that I seriously am considering rewatching. Everything from Spike's animations that seemed improved to the development of the world of ponies seemed really well done, and this episode used the previous season's throwaway gags like the first Matrix used action scenes, as a vehicle to convey character development. Twilight remembered that she's had character growth, and the show reminded us of that as well, and then had the character develop! Actually...now that I think about it...Twilight didn't develop. I was so happy that the friends' lives weren't destroyed by Twilight's leaving, and the way that they showed Moondancer as Twilight's worst fears all put together into one pony and then gave her the ability to resolve it was wonderful. The only thing I really wish about the episode was that the resolution was more like the end of Filli Vanilli - with baby steps instead of a full recovery. The episode was all about how life continued in the absence of Twilight, so it makes sense to me to show that happening in the ending as well.

And Lemon Hearts was in a beaker! She looked an awful lot like Snails to me in those shots. Tiny ponies! So cute! :awesomedash: And I'm going to say that the ponies at the end are playing hoofball. Or some pony version of roller derby without the wheels and with a ball, but then it wouldn't really be roller derby anymore.

And for anybody who hasn't had them before, grilled carrots are delicious, I highly recommend them.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:29 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:Or they were trying to tease "is she friend or is she foe...?" and then there wasn't any reason to change the inside of the house to clarify that she's not a slob.

Yeah, I'm sure they were going for the fakeout where we think that Minuette has become ... well, like Moondancer. The fakeout worked, but it's funny to imagine such a perky pony dwelling in this darkened, cobwebby house. It's Foul Bachelorette Minuette! :excite:
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Postby Minty (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 9:53 pm

Maybe she keeps pet black widow spiders, hence the cutie mark.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:04 pm

The whole "it's kinda ironic that YOU'RE the Princess of Friendship" thing reminded me of the fan debates around the Elements of Harmony: "Applejack lied but she's supposed to be the Element of Honesty; Rarity was greedy but she's supposed to be the Element of Generosity." It's always more interesting to watch characters struggle when something doesn't come naturally, which is a big part of why this ep is so much fun.

Twilight may be the Princess of Friendship but she's still Twilight, which means she's still a self-centered dork who has a hard time understanding other people and who's first instinct when presented with a "friendship problem" is to solve it like an equation. I looooved it when Pinkie arrived and was basically "lol I've got this Twi."

("well of course I know Minuette! We hang out all the time whenever she visits Ponyville! Didn't you know that?") :-P

All the digs on Twilight weren't mean-spirited but they must have hurt to hear, because they're all true. Friendship comes naturally to Spike and Minuette and Pinkie. For Twilight it's her job, and it's work.
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Postby Factory Factory (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:13 pm

For a while, the episode had me thinking that Moondancer's emotional reveal would be going off on Twilight for being so self-centered and egotistical. Because seriously, it was kind of a big assumption that 1) friendship was ruined for Moondancer and 2) it was all because Twilight didn't go to that one party one time.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:27 pm

Factory Factory wrote:For a while, the episode had me thinking that Moondancer's emotional reveal would be going off on Twilight for being so self-centered and egotistical. Because seriously, it was kind of a big assumption that 1) friendship was ruined for Moondancer and 2) it was all because Twilight didn't go to that one party one time.


I thought it was a smart move for Larson to write it both ways. Minuette and her friends get to laugh in Twi's face and be like "Jesus girl we got over it the next day, you're not THAT important" but then the Moondancer storyline is there to say "hey sometimes it DOES matter so don't keep treating people like props."
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:25 pm

Loving the commentary ITT, especially Pictish's :twasnothin:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Jul 05, 2015 11:33 pm

PictishBeast wrote:
I thought it was a smart move for Larson to write it both ways. Minuette and her friends get to laugh in Twi's face and be like "Jesus girl we got over it the next day, you're not THAT important" but then the Moondancer storyline is there to say "hey sometimes it DOES matter so don't keep treating people like props."



Expanding on that, it was also kind of nice to see Twilight just take it. She didn't overreact to those comments. She deserved them, and she knew it. She was genuinely thankful that things weren't worse.
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:19 am

I imagine Twilight's fame probably played a big factor in Moon Dancer's decline.

Like, let's imagine that the whole Nightmare Moon thing probably hit their school; that Celestia's prized pupil, along with her new friends, restored Nightmare Moon and that Twilight was moving to Ponyville on a special assignment.

Hearing that probably would have crushed Moon Dancer. Not only was she snubbed by someone she considered her closest friend, but also replaced. And not a single thought was spared by Twilight towards her. As time went by and more and more stories from Ponyville filtered in (especially if Lyra was watching from the sidelines), Moon Dancer would get more angry and her self-worth would diminish further.
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