S04E22: Testing Testing 1, 2, 3

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Re: S04E22: Testing Testing 1, 2, 3

Postby Aramek (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:45 pm

One thing I feel the need to admit, this episode, in addition to making me laugh the most, made me feel some feelings.

When Dash did the "I'm just dumb." thing while angry at herself, I just wanted to fuckin' shake her. "Don't you ever, ever say that. Don't you ever doubt yourself like that, you don't fuckin' deserve that shit. You are more wonderful than you realize, than anyone realizes. Don't ever let anyone talk down to you, especially yourself."
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Postby Weird Autumn (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:14 pm

PictishBeast wrote:This is the best post I've read in ages. You really nailed Fluttershy in particular.

To be fair I'm like 95% certain I cribbed the vast majority of that argument from an old HH post and/or frontpage article. (And the 5% is there because I might have forgotten the actual author and assumed it was HH.)
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:55 pm

PictishBeast wrote:Can I just say I love how Aramek read this:



And immediately thought this:


...because me too, I guess?

I'm always puzzled when people point to massive character flaws as a reason for disliking a character, or when people defend their favorite character by pointing out how they don't actually have massive character flaws.


I do not rightly comprehend how I am to explain why I do not like a particular character, if I cannot point to the way said character behaves? :rariwhat:

A character has strengths and weaknesses, plusses and minuses. For me, nearly all characters in MLP:FiM achieve a balance in that regard (which is why many of them are so interesting and delightful), with Rainbow Dash as one of the exceptions. Very little in her appeals to me, and nearly all her mannerisms grate on me. I would find a real life person like Rainbow Dash insufferable.

Of course, not all feel that way about her. I have no problem with that—I have been very clear that these are my feelings about her, but I am puzzled right back at you as to how else I am to articulate my preference.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:08 pm

PictishBeast wrote:
It's why Shining Armor, for example, is so goddamn boring. Or why the "why haven't you found a boyfriend yet" angle on Cheerilee was so funny. More of this Cheerilee please

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:memories: "Congratu-pony-lations, Cheerilee, another year gone and here you are still stuck in this classroom teaching these stupid kids. God I need a cider."


I'd always assumed that that eye roll was something like:
:iamapony: I know you're young but, you shouldn't ask questions about someone's personal life.
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Postby ThunderBunny (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:10 pm

I think that Opposing Farce's argument is really well hashed-out and well supported. It's not how I interpret things, though. To be clear from the start, I'm not trying to debate with anyone on this or change anyone's mind--all art and media are received with a subjectivity that is colored by our own personalities and perceptions, and I have no reason to assert that my reading on things is more correct or inherently better than anyone else's. I'd just like to explain how I personally perceive the show's structure.

I think the main reason that the idea of the elements representing each character's main struggle is that I am starting from a totally different launching pad. To me it seems that the elements represent what each character values most. I'll try to make that statement more clear as i go through each of the Mane Six and try to respond somewhat to the examples presented by Opposing Farce.

What you value the most is usually the thing you are also the most tortured by.

Applejack:
Regarding Leap of Faith, I really enjoyed watching Applejack struggle with the dilemma between total literal honesty and wanting to just let people believe something that might make their lives better. That's such a genuine and difficult conflict to have. However, I interpreted that (and most of the key episodes) as an intentional challenge to her most deeply-held value that forced her to have a breakthrough and think on a more complex level. I disagree that her stubbornness in Applebuck Season is an example of her struggling with honesty. I think that person's relationship with themselves is incredibly complicated and isn't always an accurate representation of what they value or how they treat others. For example, I'm an extremely forgiving person who has been told many many times that I'm very patient or that I'll put up with a lot from people. However, I'm ridiculously, mercilessly hard on myself. I hold myself to an impossible standard that I would never dream of holding any other person to. I've worked for years to try and be more self-forgiving. But that demand for perfection that I inflict on myself is never applied to others in the least. I don't know why. I've just always been that way. That's how I see AJ in Applebuck season or any other time she could be said to be lying to herself. I don't think that represents dishonesty as much as just a realistic complicated self-relationship.

My take on Last Roundup is that she promised the town she would win prizes and bring back money for them, and when she failed to do so, she inadvertently broke her promise and made herself into a liar--something she couldn't live with. That's why she stayed put and tried to earn the money to take back to Ponyville. In her mind it was crucial that she be a pony of her word. When her friends tracked her down and tried to get the truth out of her, she didn't lie to them, she just refused to talk about it. (And I only think something is lying by omission when you fail to even acknowledge that the thing in question exists. AJ didn't do this. She simply said, "I don't want to talk about it," which is quite honest and to the point. Being honest doesn't mean you always tell everyone whatever they demand of you.) Her most questionable slip-up in that episode is when she says "I'll tell you about it at breakfast" and then runs away instead. That's only not a lie by the strictest technicality, and in my book it was dishonest. However, she said that because she was so terrified of admitting what she perceived as her initial dishonesty (failing to keep her word and win prizes for Ponyville). So while I do think that that is an instance of her being dishonest, the conflict arose from her agonizing over her most deeply-held value.

Twilight:
"Twilight seems to pretty thoroughly be the most magic magic who ever magicked" LOL, I agree with you there. I'd say "element of magic" is the least subjective of all the elements, so it's pretty easy to just let that one stand as it is.

Pinkie Pie:
Again, working from the idea that laughter (or, by extension, bringing joy to people) is what Pinkie values the most, it makes sense to me that someone with such an emphasis on creating positive social interaction would be extra prone to abandonment issues. To me that fear only reinforces the idea that spreading laughter is the biggest priority in her life, and that, conversely, being loved by her friends is what keeps her going. This fits perfectly with her being given the element of laughter, as it is what she values the most and thus the thing that can also wreck her if it becomes absent or she feels that she has failed at it.

Fluttershy:
"for all her timidity and lack of self-confidence, has a real mean streak."
Exactly. People who are timid and insecure often feel taken advantage of and defenseless, and this can lead to unfair lashing out when the last straw suddenly hits, even though that last straw often seems like something very minor to anyone else around. When she gets those bass-ackwards assertiveness lessons from Iron Will, I think that she is just so exhausted from feeling like a door-mat all the time that she thinks the only way to stop being treated like that is to be a bully. I didn't read that so much as a natural tendency that she has to fight off, but more as a very failed desperate attempt to change something about herself that she doesn't necessarily like (being a push-over). Obviously she went about it in the worst way possible, and she was very unkind to Pinkie and Rarity, but I don't think that is indicative of a genuine "mean streak" so much as a moment of total break-down. Again, in this instance it's her extreme value on kindness that has led her to interpret "kindness" inappropriately at times (by letting people walk all over her) and thus generate a significant problem that she doesn't know how to deal with. That kind of cognitive dissonance can bring out some really nasty and even uncharacteristic qualities in people. And just because you can come up with something really horrible to say about someone doesn't mean that you were always thinking it to begin with--it means that you are having a really unbecoming moment in which you want to hurt someone, and anyone who is intelligent at all can quickly figure out how to hurt someone that they know a lot of personal information about.

Of course I can't "prove" that Fluttershy wasn't always thinking those things about Pinkie and Rarity, so I don't want to suggest that your take on it is invalid. But neither can you prove that Fluttershy was always thinking those things, so I think it's open for interpretation.

Another reason that I think Fluttershy does not actually have as pronounced of a mean streak as you suggest is because of the Discord episode you mentioned. Through careful manipulation, Discord was able to bring out the worst in each pony, EXCEPT for Fluttershy. He kept trying to manipulate her, and her good will kept deflecting it. She was the only pony that he had to magically FORCE to change, because she wasn't caving in otherwise. Again, all these things can be interpreted multiple ways, but to me that speaks powerfully to the authenticity of her value on kindness.

This is already long enough, so I'll leave out a discussion about Rarity and Rainbow Dash for now, and just leave it at addressing the things that were specifically mentioned by Opposing Farce.

Again, I'm not like "RAWR, I'M RIGHT!! YOUR INTERPRETATION OF RAINBOW FRIENDSHIP HORSES IS INCORRECT AND HORRIBLE!!!!" I'm more like, "Oh, that's a reasonable interpretation that I had not thought of before. Here's how I see it, however." :-P

Edit: Also, in the very first two episodes, when the elements are established, they are assigned according to which characteristic each character displayed during their ordeal. To me that seems to set up a pretty clear message for how the elements are supposed to be perceived. I realize things can change and not be totally consistent, but to me that set-up seems pretty straight-forward. This is also why I question Rainbow Dash's element of loyalty, as I do not perceive it as actually being the thing she values most. That's just me, though. There are in fact multiple ways to interpret what it really means to be loyal, so whatareyagonnado.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:24 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:
I'd always assumed that that eye roll was something like:
:iamapony: I know you're young but, you shouldn't ask questions about someone's personal life.


But my interpretation is more soul-crushing :-I
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:45 pm

Opposing Farce wrote:To be fair I'm like 95% certain I cribbed the vast majority of that argument from an old HH post and/or frontpage article. (And the 5% is there because I might have forgotten the actual author and assumed it was HH.)


I was reading it and going :memories: I am so proud




:iamapony:




By the way—

Niels Olof wrote:
I do not rightly comprehend how I am to explain why I do not like a particular character, if I cannot point to the way said character behaves? :rariwhat:

A character has strengths and weaknesses, plusses and minuses. For me, nearly all characters in MLP:FiM achieve a balance in that regard (which is why many of them are so interesting and delightful), with Rainbow Dash as one of the exceptions. Very little in her appeals to me, and nearly all her mannerisms grate on me. I would find a real life person like Rainbow Dash insufferable.

Of course, not all feel that way about her. I have no problem with that—I have been very clear that these are my feelings about her, but I am puzzled right back at you as to how else I am to articulate my preference.


People have different criteria for why they like a given character. For some (myself included), the definition of "a good character" is "a character who is fun to watch". And when that character has lots of flaws and quirks and neuroses, they add to the fun of watching them. But other people are more like "To enjoy watching a character, I must like who they are as a person". And that selects for a very different set of favorite characters.
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Postby Frith (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:26 pm

This was really good episode. Rainbow Dash was placed in a very realistic situation and her behavior was believable throughout the episode. And above all, her character flaw was interesting, even thought I couldn't really relate to it. Her interactions with Twilight were also brilliant.

Other thing I liked in the episode was that the history of the Wonderbolts was presented. I've always liked it when the show does worldbuilding.

If I need to criticize something, I have to say that some of the gags, such as Pinkie's rap, weren't particularly funny. But they didn't bother me much when I watched the episode so I consider this episode one of the best episodes in S4 and definitely one of the best Rainbow Dash episodes in the entire series.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:47 pm

Richy33 wrote:Sorry if this opinion angers anyone... :fluttersmith:


Stop doing this. :hug:
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Postby Weird Autumn (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:24 pm

ThunderBunny wrote:I think that Opposing Farce's argument is really well hashed-out and well supported. It's not how I interpret things, though. To be clear from the start, I'm not trying to debate with anyone on this or change anyone's mind--all art and media are received with a subjectivity that is colored by our own personalities and perceptions, and I have no reason to assert that my reading on things is more correct or inherently better than anyone else's.

Well you're a big dumb dumby and you're wrong about horses. :grumpydash:
:v: No, but actually I think it's a fair reading; to be honest I think from the most part we're essentially arguing the same thing, just coming at it with different perspectives and ways of looking at or interpreting the characters. I think the biggest thing we disagree on is Fluttershy, and whether she's got a bit of nastiness hiding under her shy personality or whether her occasional outbursts are just a reaction to being pushed too far.

One one hand, I tend to lean towards my interpretation just because I think it creates a more interesting character psychology. That's a very subjective thing, and you don't have to agree, but there's something that appeals to me about there being something very unkind and mean-spirited lurking inside the eminently meek and good-hearted Fluttershy. More than that, though, I think we do see a fair amount of evidence in the show that Fluttershy has a very critical, calculating side, from her hyper-detailed nitpicky critique of Rarity's stitching in Suited for Success to the talent for manipulation she shows every time she's forced to put her hoof down and bend someone or something to her will with intense staring and some targeted "What would your mother think?"-style emotional manipulation. It's true that Fluttershy is the only one Discord 'fails' to corrupt before just saying "fuck it" and giving her a tap on the head, but I don't think that means his magic is forcing a completely alien personality on her, I think he's still bringing out something that was always inside. The reason his more subtle efforts fail is partly because Fluttershy buries that part of her personality more deeply than the others, but also because his method of attack plays directly into her defense mechanisms: he tells her "your friends all think you're weak and useless and a coward," but it rolls right off her back because believing those things about herself is exactly how she built her little shell of social anxiety in the first place.
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Postby Tears (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:43 pm

Yeah I thought it was a really cogent, well-argued post that I don't necessarily vibe with 100%. This might just be some kneejerk reactionary response to the readiness with which people pull out the DSM-VI to analyse cartoon horsies (which this post didn't do at all, but it might inform my resistance to some of that stuff a little. And maybe there's nothing wrong with ascribing psychological stuff to fleshed-out characters? It's just the laundry list "so Twilight has OCD, Pinkie's manic depressive, blah blah blah" thing people on the net do sometimes really).

I guess the key thing in Fluttershy's part of it is how you interpret her outburst in Putting Your Hoof Down, and what that says about her personality and what she does or doesn't keep locked away. I always took it less that she was throwing down stuff she'd thought about Pinkie and Rara and was finally uninhibited enough to say, and more that she knows her friends well enough that she knows exactly what to say to hurt them the most when she's on a tear about things. I could probably do the same thing to friends I know well, take the things I know they value the most, trivialise it, and say they're ridiculous for finding them important enough. It wouldn't mean I believed it.

My read on it is that Fluttershy had gotten deep enough into a rampage of id that her empathy and the interest she takes in her friends' passions was used to lash out wildly at them because they'd turned into another obstacle to her self-actualisation as a truly effective person, or whatever it is motivational seminars by dudes with Britney headset mics are supposed to instil in people.

I'm going to read Opposing Farce's post back and think some things over though.

Oh and on the episode! I think Amy's basically pulled off the greatest trifecta of horse anime in the storied history of that science this season :allears:
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Postby ThunderBunny (?) » Tue Apr 08, 2014 11:54 pm

Opposing Farce wrote:One one hand, I tend to lean towards my interpretation just because I think it creates a more interesting character psychology. That's a very subjective thing, and you don't have to agree, but there's something that appeals to me about there being something very unkind and mean-spirited lurking inside the eminently meek and good-hearted Fluttershy.


That totally makes sense to me. And to be fair, I definitely realize that my own interpretation is colored by a degree of subjectivity as well. Fluttershy is very much my spirit pony (though, if anyone's keeping record, I think Rarity just barely pulls ahead as my true "favorite"), so it's easy for me to favor the interpretation of her that I relate best to.

On occasion in life I've encountered one or two people who have openly distrusted me or called out my kindness as "fake" on the grounds that "nobody is that nice" or that everyone has a hidden ulterior motive / judgmental side / whatever. Which is not to say that I'm just such a super amazing wonderful person, but I AM at least really damn genuinely nice to people, very optimistic and trusting, and remarkably civil to those few whom I dislike. So since it has been really hurtful to me in the past to be considered a fake, of course I want to fly to Fluttershy's defense and protest loudly at the suggestion that she's got a seriously bitchy side that she conceals under her kindness. That's not my primary motivation for my interpretation, mind you, but it certainly factors in somewhat.

Also, sorry if I'm making this veer off-topic too much. Ummmm, Rainbow Dash! Wonderbolts! I loved this episode!
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:31 am

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:I'd always assumed that that eye roll was something like:
:iamapony: I know you're young but, you shouldn't ask questions about someone's personal life.


And my interpretation was "Oh god, it's Thanksgiving with my parents all over again." Just goes to show how many potential stories are told by a single expression. Just like real-people acting!

Except :iamapony:, which only means one thing ("I am a pony").
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Postby Sobana (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:06 am

If you think about it, Rainbow Dash not knowing the history of the Wonderbolts makes sense and makes a slight jab at the fans. How many super FiM fans out there who know nothing of the previous generations or the greatness of the Fizzy?
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:09 am

Huh...I never thought of it in that way. Now I want to find out if that was intentional or not.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:38 am

I found myself personally invested in the conflict between Twilight Sparkle and Rainbow Dash, and I was heavily on Twilight's side throughout the situation. :twiright: :rainbert:
Rainbow Dash was being her usual 'I dont care lol' attitude about stuff that Twilight takes seriously, which is admittedly cute, but when Twilight gave the pop quiz to show just how badly RD needed to study, I found the blue one's lashing out inexcusable . :offendash: :-/
That said, I do understand where RD is coming from, and the state her mind is in... otherwise I wouldn't be so eager for the two of them to make amends. But I have been through almost the exact same situation as Twilight with someone like Rainbow before... I'm not trying to be pushy or inconsiderate, I'm trying to help with something important, you know? It's not like Twilight wasn't trying to improvise and continue to alternate tactics to suit her friend's needs. :facehoof: :grumpydash:
But then RD just accuses her and 'history buffs' instead of owning up to her apathetic incompetence, and then tearing into Twilight about her flying skills (which she may or may not be sensitive about). :twi99:
That's right, apathy. RD just didn't care or try at all by that point. Enough of this 'not my fault' nonsense. Stop slacking off and then hoof pointing when you fail! Ugh! :twonk:
:twismug: "Remember those breathing exercises! Breathe in..... breathe out....." :allright:
Was Twilight pushing 'too far'? I wonder what others feel about that whole scenario. Why you giving Twilight all the looks when you break things up, Fluttershy??? :sheepish: :glare: :saddash:
Sobana wrote:How many super FiM fans out there who know nothing of the previous generations or the greatness of the Fizzy?

DID SOMEONE MENTION FIZZY'S GREATNESS? :v:
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She made a basket! Isn't that great? :awesomedash:
Fizzy's actually 95% very bubbly, friendly and nice, like a less intense Pinkie Pie! :-P
I just had to show this one RD-esque moment of hers... to make up for my rant against best spiritual successor to Firefly and/or Masquerade :3:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:26 am

Headless Horse wrote:By the way—



People have different criteria for why they like a given character. For some (myself included), the definition of "a good character" is "a character who is fun to watch". And when that character has lots of flaws and quirks and neuroses, they add to the fun of watching them. But other people are more like "To enjoy watching a character, I must like who they are as a person". And that selects for a very different set of favorite characters.


I am not in disagreement (I think my posts have made that clear), but a successful character requires some aspect of connection, a way of relating with the viewer or reader. With Rainbow Dash, I have uttered the dreaded nine words ("I do not care what happens to this character"). I've had hopes for her—in Read It and Weep she kindled a hope that she might be able to intellectually broaden her horizon (which seems to span from wing tip to wing tip)—as it turned out, she reads only Daring Do (the contrast between her own geek-out in Daring Don't and her open disdain for Princess Twilight's ditto in Three's a Crowd was jarring). A much maligned (unfairly IMHO) episode, Mysterious Mare Do Well, for once had Rainbow Dash called on her behaviour, but to little long lasting effect. There are other characters that are basically unsympathetic, e.g., Donald Duck or Daffy Duck (no relation), but with those, it is much easier to form a connection (and immense enjoyment in both cases). There are many reasons why, but one is that while they occasionally triumph, nemesis is usually swift on the wing to give answer for their hubris, reestablishing order (as well as the fact that it is, always has been, and always will be Duck Season). I see very little such redress in MLP:FiM, when it comes to Rainbow Dash. She is, after all, awesome, and that apparently forgives all. As such, her friendship with the rest remains for me more a fiat by Faust than anything else. I can observe that they tolerate and even cherish her, but I don't see why.

But, Rainbow Dash notwithstanding, this episode was still great.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:30 pm

Niels Olof wrote:I can observe that they tolerate and even cherish her, but I don't see why.

To me, she does seem like such an obnoxious jerk almost all the time... but I come away from (most) episodes feeling like she, I dunno.. tries to make up for it? Means well but sucks at showing it? It's difficult for me to figure out, I ought to dislike her as much as you do, for many of the same reasons you've shared. I've gotten just as unhappy with her before as I have during this episode. So.. I dunno. :pinkieshrug:

Probably the best episode to show an actually nice side is Hurricane Fluttershy, where Rainbow Dash is sincerely considerate with her friend throughout. What do you think of her behavior with Fluttershy in that one? Honestly it almost seemed out of character to me, but they are very close friends... :ponder:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:33 pm

Niels Olof wrote:
I am not in disagreement (I think my posts have made that clear), but a successful character requires some aspect of connection, a way of relating with the viewer or reader. With Rainbow Dash, I have uttered the dreaded nine words ("I do not care what happens to this character"). I've had hopes for her—in Read It and Weep she kindled a hope that she might be able to intellectually broaden her horizon (which seems to span from wing tip to wing tip)—as it turned out, she reads only Daring Do (the contrast between her own geek-out in Daring Don't and her open disdain for Princess Twilight's ditto in Three's a Crowd was jarring). A much maligned (unfairly IMHO) episode, Mysterious Mare Do Well, for once had Rainbow Dash called on her behaviour, but to little long lasting effect. There are other characters that are basically unsympathetic, e.g., Donald Duck or Daffy Duck (no relation), but with those, it is much easier to form a connection (and immense enjoyment in both cases). There are many reasons why, but one is that while they occasionally triumph, nemesis is usually swift on the wing to give answer for their hubris, reestablishing order (as well as the fact that it is, always has been, and always will be Duck Season). I see very little such redress in MLP:FiM, when it comes to Rainbow Dash. She is, after all, awesome, and that apparently forgives all. As such, her friendship with the rest remains for me more a fiat by Faust than anything else. I can observe that they tolerate and even cherish her, but I don't see why.

But, Rainbow Dash notwithstanding, this episode was still great.


She has saved Rarity's life at least three times. :v:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:15 pm

Wylie wrote:
She has saved Rarity's life at least three times. :v:


Eh, the country's lousy with wing horses. Someone else would have stepped up. :gotcha: When she fell with Spike, she couldn't even be bothered to scream, and this from somepony who wails to high heaven, if she can't find her diamond encrusted ribbon she had right here not 30 seconds ago. Clearly, falling to your death is a pretty humdrum affair.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:16 pm

Rainbow Dash does other things, that's why she's likable :pinkieshrug: She's Fluttershy's childhood friend and protector, Pinkie's prank buddy, AJ's rival and occasional farmhand, Rarity's, uh... friend (they don't get a lot of scenes together but they get along), and Twilight's nerdfriend and a respectable hero.

Yeah, sometimes we have to laugh at Dashie, but she's more than just an ego. She's a little kid who thinks she's hot stuff, but actually works for it so that, even if we forget it sometimes, she genuinely deserves it, for both her skill and bravery. And honestly, it's refreshing to have a tomboy character who gets to be strong without being compared to men - just a girl who's awesome for her own sake.

Also, there's nothing wrong with Dashie only reading Daring Do books, because she enjoys them and gets to connect with one of her friends through them.
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Postby Skipper (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:26 pm

.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:27 pm

Niels Olof wrote:When she fell with Spike... Clearly, falling to your death is a pretty humdrum affair.


:squintyjack:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:30 pm

Dash Hate makes Scootaloo cry!
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Stop making Scootaloo cry Niels! :gonkity:

But yea gotta agree with Skipper & FoxFyre on this one.

Dash may not be perfect, but she's still awesome for who she is. :awesomedash:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:45 pm

Niels Olof wrote:She is, after all, awesome, and that apparently forgives all. As such, her friendship with the rest remains for me more a fiat by Faust than anything else. I can observe that they tolerate and even cherish her, but I don't see why.


She can be counted on in a pinch. Next to Twilight, Rainbow Dash probably the best leader in the group. Organizing the town Pegasi in both Winter Wrap Up and Hurricane Fluttershy. While she might have blown off AJ during Applebuck season once, she wouldn't be the only pony to blow off someone else (Rarity in Baby Cakes for example), Rainbow Dash does help out a lot. She's helped Rarity as dress model before. She went with Fluttershy on that boring butterfly migration, she didn't think twice about going with Rarity and Twilight to keep an eye on Spike, etc. She's brash, but I think most people have a friend like that.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:50 pm

The Doctor wrote:
She can be counted on in a pinch. Next to Twilight, Rainbow Dash probably the best leader in the group. Organizing the town Pegasi in both Winter Wrap Up and Hurricane Fluttershy. While she might have blown off AJ during Applebuck season once, she wouldn't be the only pony to blow off someone else (Rarity in Baby Cakes for example), Rainbow Dash does help out a lot. She's helped Rarity as dress model before. She went with Fluttershy on that boring butterfly migration, she didn't think twice about going with Rarity and Twilight to keep an eye on Spike, etc. She's brash, but I think most people have a friend like that.



Agree. Dash, Like AJ could easily make a decent Defacto leader in Future adventures if Twy is busy/incapacitated.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:09 pm

Amethyst_Gem wrote:To me, she does seem like such an obnoxious jerk almost all the time... but I come away from (most) episodes feeling like she, I dunno.. tries to make up for it? Means well but sucks at showing it? It's difficult for me to figure out, I ought to dislike her as much as you do, for many of the same reasons you've shared. I've gotten just as unhappy with her before as I have during this episode. So.. I dunno. :pinkieshrug:

Probably the best episode to show an actually nice side is Hurricane Fluttershy, where Rainbow Dash is sincerely considerate with her friend throughout. What do you think of her behavior with Fluttershy in that one? Honestly it almost seemed out of character to me, but they are very close friends... :ponder:


I'll allow that episode is indeed one of the nicer episodes, when it comes to Rainbow Dash development (the pivotal moment for me being her realization that her duty comes before her pride). What it showed for me though was that while Rainbow Dash was eager to include Fluttershy (partly possibly out of the kindness of her heart, but certainly also because there was a record to beat ("I'm gonna need every Pegasus to break the record, including you")), she demonstrated very little actual understanding of her. (Sort of similar to how Pinkie Pie completely misread (and inadvertently terrorized) her in Filly Vanilli, though Rainbow Dash at least acknowledges that she does not know what to do about her (that would then be a "known unknown", right?)). Twilight Sparkle was the one, who nailed it ("Do it for Equestria!" :fluttersmith: "Do it for Rainbow Dash!" :fluttersmith: "Do it for yourself!" :fluttercite:). No doubt, however, that Rainbow Dash is really, really proud of her friend afterwards, even if she was not the one who in the end was capable of helping her.

I, BTW, don't require my characters to behave all the time (how could I be a Rarity fan, if I did? ), and my favorite Fluttershy episode (well, until Filli Vanilli) is Putting Your Hoof Down—I have probably watched few segments of MLP:FiM more often than her towering take-down of Pinkie Pie and Rarity*. One, because it is an amazing vocal performance (unparalleled for sheer forcefulness (and still unbeaten for viciousness) until Rarity lashed out in Rarity takes Manehattan), two, because it is so unlike her (I belong to the camp that believes that this was lashing out in hurt and anger rather than any long-held resentment), and three, because the scene demonstrated that Fluttershy is self-aware. She realizes almost immediately what she has done. That self-awareness is something I like in my (pony) characters (Rarity certainly knew what she was doing in Sweet and Elite, and her horror at her own actions in Rarity takes Manehattan was palpable), and Rainbow Dash is not strong on introspection, because apparently you don't have to when you're awesome. (No, self-pity doesn't count, sorry, :cry: :saddash:). When you come down to it, the lack of self-awareness is probably my number one issue with her. She is almost pure Id, with little fore- or afterthought, and just a minimum of theory of mind. (I'd like her a lot better (as a character), if she knew what a jerk she was being most of the time, but I suppose she'd be an antagonist then).

While the friendship between Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash is clearly there in the show today, I generally find the evidence for it predating S01E01 by much rather lacking—old acquaintances, certainly, but friends? The earliest scene with both of them could either a) be a friend courageously defending a weaker comrade, or b) a young bruiser looking for an excuse for a fight and/or race (or c), a combination, or something completely different). She certainly didn't waste any time getting on with the race, did she? Happily, there were (astonishingly strong) butterflies to catch the one who nopony noticed falling (I have my doubts about pegasi pedagogy, see also Hurricane Fluttershy). Dragonshy shows more the exasperation with an acquaintance compartmentalised as "weak flier" than loyalty and support towards an old friend (based on that episode, Applejack and Fluttershy would seem to be the old friends, and given those three's habits that makes a lot more sense). Pinkie Pie was the one who knew better than to prank Fluttershy, not Rainbow Dash. Sonic Rainboom—choosing Fluttershy of all Ponyville pegasi for cheering? Does she even know her? As the seasons wore on, this obviously changed, but I'll need more flashbacks to support the notion that their friendship was old, when the show started.

Is she redeemable? Of course, she is (most seem to be in this show). She may well be ripe for her own Princess Luna episode—she seems to be the Princess of the Hard Truths, after all.

* Now imagine that scene with Rainbow Dash getting an earful instead.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:26 pm

I would argue that a big piece of evidence that they have been friends a long time is that Fluttershy seems to be the only pony that Dash can show empathy for. Rainbow Dash is a bit dense and generally sucks at empathy. She has clearly been friends with her long enough for it to sink in.

I would also point to the flight camp flashback when we see Rainbow Dash waiting at the end of the line with Fluttershy. Dash is not a patient pony and waiting at the back doesn't seem like something she would do unless it was for something important. Like maybe giving Fluttershy a pep talk.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:30 pm

First, Rainbow Dash ain't 'redeemable' because there's nothing to redeem. :rainbert:

Second - she doesn't quite understand Fluttershy, yeah, because they're polar opposites, but they stick together because they ARE friends. Fluttershy was terrible at cheering for Dashie, but she was great at encouraging her - she wasn't loud about it, but she was definitely with her all the way, and that was one of the few times in S1 Fluttershy ever got assertive. Dashie didn't just want someone loud, she wanted someone who would totally support her as far as she'd go, and of all the ponies she could think of, Fluttershy fit that bill. I mean, yeah, it's also partly because Fluts is the only one of the mane six who could physically come with her, but it's not like other pegasi were jumping at the chance to be Dashie's cheerleader this time.

Judging by Dragon Quest, they just have a history of dragging each other along on things the other isn't interested in, but they're still friends because they're willing to get dragged along; they're the sort of friends who lower their walls for each other. Even in Hurricane Fluttershy, Dashie doesn't understand Fluttershy well, but she's understanding enough to be frustrated about it and she tries as hard as she can to be understanding, even cutting herself off when she realizes she's being too harsh. They recognize that they're different, but they accept it the best they can.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:42 pm

SoundMonkey44 wrote:Dash Hate makes Scootaloo cry!
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Stop making Scootaloo cry Niels! :gonkity:

But yea gotta agree with Skipper & FoxFyre on this one.

Dash may not be perfect, but she's still awesome for who she is. :awesomedash:



Relax, Scoots, you're welcome to your hero, but we can't all like the same things (otherwise there wouldn't be enough things to go round). As an old fan of Rarity and Princess Celestia, neither exactly the best loved in this fandom :gonkity:, I've long come to terms with that. :wink:

Look on the bright side—much more Rainbow Dash merchandize for the rest of you (I must admit I do tend to name my SSDs 'Rainbow Dash', because she is fast).
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Postby doodlesplat (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:20 pm

Niels Olof wrote:As such, her friendship with the rest remains for me more a fiat by Faust than anything else. I can observe that they tolerate and even cherish her, but I don't see why.
The other ponies remain friends with Rainbow Dash because the friendship they have between them is what they cherish. To be a friend is to accept the bad as well as the good, and to wish that things will get better for the other's sake. Rainbow Dash has obvious faults and her friends all know that. But, rather than abandoning her on that account, they look for the best in their friend and encourage her to grow and learn past her faults. Friends give each other a chance—no one is perfect and everyone takes time to grow.
:hug:

Niels Olof wrote:When you come down to it, the lack of self-awareness is probably my number one issue with her. She is almost pure Id, with little fore- or afterthought, and just a minimum of theory of mind. (I'd like her a lot better (as a character), if she knew what a jerk she was being most of the time, but I suppose she'd be an antagonist then).
Rainbow Dash thrives on winning. The act of winning fuels her self-worth and losing sends her spiraling. It's probably true that she doesn't introspect on this nearly enough. However, it's also true that some people live life this way, even though it may not be the way you or I have chosen. This very aspect about her that causes issue with you happens to make me react in a very different manner. Under the assumption that her way is equally valid and deserves to be respected, I want to learn to see things from her angle, to understand and relate to her despite being dissimilar, and to like her for who she is, judgment-free. I feel this way for my own personal reasons, and so it is entirely acceptable that there isn't agreement.

It really is to each their own: All these varied perspectives on Rainbow Dash in this thread show less that her character is highly debated and more that we each react very differently to a character such as hers. The poor pony is caught in the crossfire.
:saddash:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:49 pm

doodlesplat wrote:It really is to each their own: All these varied perspectives on Rainbow Dash in this thread show less that her character is highly debated and more that we each react very differently to a character such as hers. The poor pony is caught in the crossfire.
:saddash:


That she is. As an old Danish proverb puts it (roughly): "Tastes differ, and that is why all food gets eaten, and all women married". A tremendous strength of MLP:FiM is the ensemble cast, and their varied natures. There is something for everybody.

To continue along the food tangent (what kind of cheese would she be?*), I hope that my own aversion to gorgonzola won't put y'all off your next (godawful, no really, sthap) pizza.

And I never claimed that she isn't good at what she does, or occasionally funny. But I prefer her, like Marmite, spread very thinly.

* Now, Rarity would be a blue-veined Stilton... Applejack I suppose an organic sharp cheddar of sorts...
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Postby Weird Autumn (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:21 pm

I can understand people disliking Rainbow Dash because her personality traits rankle them in ways particular to their own tastes and predilections; I can get the same way with Fluttershy episodes when my empathy gets beat out by "god damn girl where is your spine?" Still, I really do think you're looking at the wrong aspects of the character when you focus only on how insensitive and impulsive she is: yes, her lack of tact can lead her to act like a jerk, and her antipathy towards academia and preparedness can be a frustrating cause of problems for herself and others, but at the end of the day she's well-intentioned and quick enough on her feet/hooves/wings to play most situations by ear. She's genuinely caring and supportive (Sleepless in Ponyville for one example), she refuses to compromise her morals even in pursuit of her greatest dreams (Wonderbolts Academy), and even if it takes a lot of doing to drill a life lesson into her thick skull she's willing to admit when she's wrong (virtually all of her focus episodes). She may live her life almost entirely by id, but her core principles and motivations are largely positive and unselfish and that makes her more of a well-meaning dunce flying by the seat of her pants than an indiscriminate wrecking ball smashing down everything in mindless pursuit of self-gratification.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:07 pm

doodlesplat wrote:Rainbow Dash thrives on winning. The act of winning fuels her self-worth and losing sends her spiraling.


I think you really nailed her on this one (after all, it's right there from the horse's mouth in Cutie Mark Chronicle), and that is probably another reason, why I do not connect with Rainbow Dash at all, as I'm with :maud: on this one. Strive to do the things you do to your own satisfaction by all means (because doing so will bring you the joy of a thing well done), but competing to prove you are better than somebody else seems really strange and more than a little futile to me. But then, I am not really interested in a Cadillac ELR, something winners apparently are.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:28 pm

I enjoy watching Rainbow Dash for a lot of the same reasons I enjoy watching this guy:



She's important to the successful group dynamics of the core ensemble. :spike101:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:33 pm

Opposing Farce wrote:I can understand people disliking Rainbow Dash because her personality traits rankle them in ways particular to their own tastes and predilections; I can get the same way with Fluttershy episodes when my empathy gets beat out by "god damn girl where is your spine?" Still, I really do think you're looking at the wrong aspects of the character when you focus only on how insensitive and impulsive she is: yes, her lack of tact can lead her to act like a jerk, and her antipathy towards academia and preparedness can be a frustrating cause of problems for herself and others, but at the end of the day she's well-intentioned and quick enough on her feet/hooves/wings to play most situations by ear. She's genuinely caring and supportive (Sleepless in Ponyville for one example), she refuses to compromise her morals even in pursuit of her greatest dreams (Wonderbolts Academy),


OTOH, she was quite willing to cut corners when it came to her other greatest dream (The Super Speedy Cider Squeezy 6000), but I understand that Genuine Apple Acres Cider™ ("It tastes like apples" :maud:) is sort of a blind spot for her, so I'm happy to let that one pass.

and even if it takes a lot of doing to drill a life lesson into her thick skull she's willing to admit when she's wrong (virtually all of her focus episodes). She may live her life almost entirely by id, but her core principles and motivations are largely positive and unselfish and that makes her more of a well-meaning dunce flying by the seat of her pants than an indiscriminate wrecking ball smashing down everything in mindless pursuit of self-gratification.


I'm not claiming that she is without positive qualities, just explaining how the... rest of her makes it very difficult for me to appreciate those. And, as I stated upthread, I have all the other ponies to adore.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:45 pm

acksed wrote:Thing is, universal experiences are less universal than you might think. The article tells of people who didn't realise they couldn't smell, or were asexual and puzzled that everyone else seemed to have these strange impulses, but it's the commenters that are the real eye-openers: people who assumed that everyone who claimed to like their job was lying; synasthetes who wondered why no-one else could see how 7 was yellow; even someone who didn't realise that stress was a thing.


This is a really interesting article. Something else the episode reminded me of was the Method of Loci, used by the ancient Greeks to memorize long oral passages. It's still taught today as a way to map your brain's memory-recall center against your brain's spatial-awareness center:

Many memory contest champions claim to use this technique to recall faces, digits, and lists of words. These champions’ successes have little to do with brain structure or intelligence, but more to do with their technique of using regions of their brain that have to do with spatial learning.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:51 pm

I appreciate all the reasons being given out about how RD is a good friend to xyz because abc, but as has also been stated, sometimes it really is just difficult to appreciate that when the negative traits grate on you so much.

Let me sum it up: Rainbow Dash reminds me of every arrogant smug cocky violent reckless stupid selfish person I've known.
Either those I've observed being horrible to others or those I've put up with myself in my life.

You know, as opposed to all the other reasonable decent nice people that aren't like that, and who may remind me of other ponies instead. I don't get much joy out of watching a popular children's cartoon character encouraging such attitudes and behavior and almost never being called out on it cause 'awesome'.

Ultimately, this means I consider RD's negative traits to be the worst by far out of the main six, I just don't see the others' flaws to be nearly as severely bad.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:56 pm

Stupid and Selfish don't really apply to Rainbow Dash though.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:58 pm

The Doctor wrote:Stupid and Selfish don't really apply to Rainbow Dash though.


To be fair, 'stupid' and 'selfish' are kind of universal problems that all people and ponies have and do at some point. I just feel like RD displays those traits more often than the other mane six. I acknowledge there's obviously some observer bias going on, but that's me (of course lol).

Other than Niels, none of you find RD out of control and excessively, well, bad?
I mean, and also find it distasteful at least, rather than amusing. It amuses me sometimes, but I feel like she just goes on and on with her bs.
I do like Rainbow Dash though, she's the easiest for me to DISLIKE too... :v:
P.S.: I can't stand stereotypical jocks and strongly dislike them too. Coincidence? :starity:
P.P.S.: Twilight can do no wrong. :twonk:
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