S05E25-26: The Cutie Re-Mark

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Re: S05E25-26: The Cutie Re-Mark

Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:03 pm

Anyone else find it funny how Starlight mostly levitated herself instead of using a cloud spell? Although it's implied she does use a cloud spell in this act.

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:black101:

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Unicorn standing on clouds? Let's not question it! :whatsup:

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:conftoot:

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Even Fluts isn't buying Twi's shit here. :fluttershock:

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It's going to be OK Spike

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Twi plz

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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:05 pm

They seemed to carefully prevent showing us the alternate character's cutie marks, but here Pinkie's is clearly visible...

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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:48 pm

That was cool and fun.

Also the Mane 6: unlike Batman they actually redeem bad guys. :twiright:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:53 pm

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Yo Cheerilee

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This is so wrong :hatte:

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More fisticuffs

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:-P : Just a hop skip and a jump to dodge lasers

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These guys still look too CGI

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Secretary Rarity :vogue:

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Postby Lorce (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:03 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Image

I think Chrysalis' eyes look really weird there, like they're too low. Almost as if her head is upside down. :-I
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:12 pm

So much going on in this episode. :flail:

First, the wow factor: pretty great. Fans love the supervillains, and here we get to play around with them a little bit more -- probably as much as we can reasonably have in a season without it going too grim. Sombra and his horde were pretty impressive (although, alas, he still doesn't get a speaking role). Chrysalis got to do stuff again, Nightmare Moon rebuilt her old castle, etc. Plus, as others mentioned, the main characters being recast in each scenario was fun. And Zecora! She got to do something! :awesomedash:

This episode also keeps in mind that while it's fun to have villains to wrestle with sometimes, these are all clearly the bad "what-if" endings. Accusations of being literally fan fiction miss the point: Those scenarios only happen when the whole structure of the show has broken down, and no pony stepped in to be that defender of Equestria's virtues. Although that does raise the question: Were we seeing only the most catastrophic timelines? Was the Sonic Rainboom really the only thing standing between Equestria and an infinite boss rush? Or were there other, better outcomes where the rest of the mane six (or some other group of ponies) still stood against evil and triumphed?

The time travel mechanics... are what they are. I see them less as a big plot hole and more of a homework assignment for the fans over the long break to piece together.

So, Starlight Glimmer.

As a villain, she is in fine form in this episode: not just being able to fight with Twilight, but touches like her propagandizing that Twilight can't really argue effectively against, or her taunting. She's somewhere between a normal pony and a supervillain, but her strength is really her ability to shut down Twilight's friendship speechifying.

That said, this episode pumps her up so much that the ending really did need a little more oomph to justify her redemption. In the season premiere, she had her one weird trick to make everyone equal (princesses hate her), but Twilight was also able to handle her attacks easily when she wasn't taken by surprise. Here, Starlight always has the upper hand, and her magic gets ridiculous -- levitating herself in Cloudsdale for most of the hour, seemingly being better at combat than the pony whose job is fighting monsters and existential horrors, and being able to just rewrite Starswirl's time-travel spell to do whatever she wants (but not enough to get a pair of wings, it seems).

It's very tempting to fall into power-level arguments or wonder why a better unicorn than Twilight could fly under the radar her entire life, but the larger problem is how to redeem someone like that. She's like Moondancer inasmuch as her personality problem stems from losing a friend in her formative years, but this time, Twilight's friendship isn't really the answer.

I agree with what others have said: Because she's almost up there with the supervillains in terms of power and motivation, she needs more than just a friendship speech. Yes, she was sad as a child that she lost her boyfriend, but she has always viewed Twilight with contempt, not jealousy. The about-face from "You only showed me the future you wanted me to see!" to "Maybe I just need more friends!" was crammed in at the end. I would have sacrificed the final song to send Starlight to meet up with her long-lost friend (or, hell, back to the past to fix things up there!) to bring her character arc full circle.

As for her coming back in season 6 (or, as people are speculating based on that tweet from Jim Miller, that she's joining the main cast), I just don't see much room for her to grow without being a retread of Sunset Shimmer. I suspect she'll be confined to a few character-centric episodes.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:17 pm

The strangest thing about Starlight's backstory is that her friend got his Cutie Mark, and was sent to Canterlot because he needed to learn and develop those powers since he was so good.

:v: Well sure that makes total sense. Because Starlight clearly wasn't good enough at magic to warrant an invite.

SlateSlabrock wrote:I agree with what others have said: Because she's almost up there with the supervillains in terms of power and motivation, she needs more than just a friendship speech. Yes, she was sad as a child that she lost her boyfriend, but she has always viewed Twilight with contempt, not jealousy. The about-face from "You only showed me the future you wanted me to see!" to "Maybe I just need more friends!" was crammed in at the end. I would have sacrificed the final song to send Starlight to meet up with her long-lost friend (or, hell, back to the past to fix things up there!) to bring her character arc full circle.


They should have cut one of the timelines out to better develop her. The Nightmare Moon one made little sense after being shown two timelines where Nightmare Moon was clearly stopped.
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Postby Nicotico (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:22 pm

The Doctor wrote:The strangest thing about Starlight's backstory is that her friend got his Cutie Mark, and was sent to Canterlot because he needed to learn and develop those powers since he was so good.

:v: Well sure that makes total sense. Because Starlight clearly wasn't good enough at magic to warrant an invite.

It looks like the village is a unicorn only one, so any of her peers would be sent to Canterlot the moment they got their cutie mark. She could have ended up a late bloomer that took forever to learn her cutie mark or by the time she did she had run away.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:35 pm

The Doctor wrote:They should have cut one of the timelines out to better develop her. The Nightmare Moon one made little sense after being shown two timelines where Nightmare Moon was clearly stopped.

But then the fandom would spend the whole hiatus arguing about which villain should/shouldn't have been left out of the cameos. :nnngh:

I don't think they needed that much extra time. I just think it would have made more sense for Starlight to make up with someone who isn't the main characters.We know they'll give anyone a second chance; it's less clear for the villagers or Sunburst.

Lorce wrote:I think Chrysalis' eyes look really weird there, like they're too low. Almost as if her head is upside down. :-I

I think we've seen that before from her. She just has very strange eye placement, especially when they're not wide open.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:40 pm

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1) :roll:

2) I think I found her:
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Also, stilts pony:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:43 pm

Image I'm glad Starlight Glimmer has left her past behind.

Image Well, not quite...

:v: :amazing: Yakity yak yak yak...

Image QUIET! Twilight is organizing her books!
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:45 pm

Wayoshi wrote:
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These guys still look too CGI


By now I'm certain they're intended to look too CGI to make them look otherworldly and to fuck with the uncanny valley. :fluttershock:
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Postby Mysteryman (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:47 pm

I thought it was pretty good. I didn't think too much about the various alternate worlds, they just wanted them as different as possible (but all still bad). I guess you could say all the villains got in a fight in each reality and what had changed in the past somehow led to different winners. As for being able to do the same thing over and over—I guess magic-based time travel just lets you do that.

I really didn't like the reappearance of "equality is bad." I know what they mean, but I wish they'd used a better word, like uniformity or conformity.

Wayoshi wrote:Image

This Venn diagram makes no sense.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:58 pm

lolol Sethisto gg

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gg

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Starlight the enabler

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So this one makes the least sense, right?

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Sunburst doesn't look too nice in this frame...

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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:03 pm

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I wonder who pushed the button first. :ponder:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:22 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:Also, stilts pony:
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Heh, isn't that filly the mole (the one who turned into a changeling as soon as Chrysalis showed up)? :gotcha:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:25 pm

Headless Horse wrote:
Heh, isn't that filly the mole (the one who turned into a changeling as soon as Chrysalis showed up)? :gotcha:

Yes, and the other pony (who looks more normal in the close-up) is apparently that doctor from "Secret of My Excess"
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Postby Discord (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:28 pm

Pretty fun episode, although lacking the emotional "oomph" of the past couple of finales. I'll echo that, although Starlight Glimmer was really awesome, the resolution to it just didn't click all that well; her motivation wasn't as well explained as it could have been.

But as far as adventures go, this was really entertaining and a fun ride. I really liked that the conflict introduced itself quickly to maximize the fun with alternate timelines, rather than doing a longer build-up that we've seen in previous finales.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:35 pm

Copy/pasting my thoughts from elsewhere.

I thought that was great. Yes, the time-travel made almost no sense. No, it was never, ever going to.

I guess I'm the only person who thought the lead-up to Starlight stepping down felt really natural and well-paced? The whole point was that she initially didn't know she was destroying the future by messing with the past; as far as she knew, all she was messing with was the Mane 6. Even seeing the burnt-out timeline that Twilight dragged her to almost wasn't enough to convince her.

Reasoning with her was always going to be the solution. She isn't Tirek, or Sombra or Chrysalis. She doesn't want to rule or burn Equestria; she's just sad, and lonely, and hurt. Compassion was always, always going to be the solution. And it worked.

Starlight's backstory may seem underwhelming if the expectation was for something grand and dramatic, but if this show has ever had a single overriding message, it's that friendship is important almost beyond compare. Starlight had it, and then it was taken away from her. Being burnt like that at such a young age doesn't necessarily leave a person unchanged. Starlight let it take over every aspect of her life, and a pointless crusade against Twilight (where she openly admitted that she didn't mind if it became a perpetual struggle for control) was the breaking point.

And we got to see loads of weird and brilliant alternate timelines. I still can't believe they actually did "war comes to Equestria".
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:37 pm

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Begone foul spell

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That's right Sugar Belle & co, she's back.

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:spoiler:

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Holy shit Flitter and Cloud Chaser :-D I know they were briefly in Mane Attraction too, but still.

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I'll see you all again in S06E01(-02). :jingo: :jingo:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:39 pm

So she's more powerful than the main characters and instantly becomes friends with them all.

:gotcha: OK, NOW we have a Mary Sue.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:44 pm

So yeah, I don't know about you guys, but I thought that was really good.

Dexanth wrote:I will eat my metaphorical hat if Josh Haber hasn't broken the no-fanfic rule at some point.

Because if Spike's line at the start of the Chrysalis-bit is coincidence, then the universe has a really really hilarious sense of humor.


Which line is this? Because I'm sure you're probably right, but I can't think what line you mean. Regardless, the whole episode felt an awful lot like any number of fics I read back in the S1/S2 days. My money would be on Haber being someone who read as many of those as any fan did before he joined the staff.

Which could have been a disaster, going by how "un-pony" most of those fanfics always seemed. They tended to have interesting and compelling ideas as often as not, and made for good reading—it was always fun to imagine how our beloved characters would respond in a wholly alien environment or set of circumstances. But it very, very seldom felt like the show did. There was never the sense of silliness or fun, of cartoon logic, of moderation of all the excesses of an alternate universe.

And, indeed, this one does flirt with that alien texture a lot, and more than flirt. It's light on humor; in fact, this is the best gag:

Wayoshi wrote:Image


But it's also really, really dark. It doesn't shy away from all the implications of things like pony war and changeling invasion—not just illustrating that those things exist, but also going to pains to paint a deep picture of what it feels like to be a part of one of those worlds. To live as a rebel outlaw group hiding in the jungle from inevitable discovery and annihilation. To be a part of Nightmare Moon's world of eternal night. And—

Wayoshi wrote:Image


Um :fluttershock:

And what saves it all for me, and keeps it from feeling so alien that it's beyond enjoyment, is that all this detail is still kept nicely in-character. Scenes like Zecora's, demonstrating to Twilight what the nature of mucking with timelines is like, felt organic and natural and Zecora-like. In some ways it's not too unlike what I've read in some fanworks, true. But those are usually the ones that felt the closest to being something that shared inspiration with the actual show.

I'm not going to dither about time-travel mechanics; I don't think it's ever led anywhere good (even the best possible interpretation of any confusing element is that "it works because of so-and-so contrived explanation that it's obvious the writer didn't even consider"). Nor do I really think there's any particular problem with Starlight's backstory being weak; I think it got the point across just fine for the target audience, who as we must remember are the ones to whom the script has to spend all that time near the beginning explaining what's going on, even as we can all tell instantly and are six steps ahead of Twilight who is necessarily really slow on the uptake for someone so smart. Huge chunks of the episode are there for "us", but it all has to work for kids or it's a pointless exercise.

And ultimately the heart is there. That's really the only thing I can't do without at this point.

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Damn I love that ending. Another frame that could have ended the whole show and I'd be 100% content.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:46 pm

After everything was put back together, somewhere in Twilight's library at the corner of the screen there should've been a book glowing and vibrating.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:47 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:I guess I'm the only person who thought the lead-up to Starlight stepping down felt really natural and well-paced? The whole point was that she initially didn't know she was destroying the future by messing with the past; as far as she knew, all she was messing with was the Mane 6. Even seeing the burnt-out timeline that Twilight dragged her to almost wasn't enough to convince her.


I'm with you. "I only saw what you showed me!" felt like rationalization; she knew her own defense was crumbling and she didn't have a leg to stand on, but her ego wasn't going down without a fight. It had to get one last dig in before she realized she had to capitulate.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:58 pm

Ponies drafting for the war feels like a juxtaposition that shouldn't exist ever :fluttersmith:
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:02 am

Headless Horse wrote:
I'm with you. "I only saw what you showed me!" felt like rationalization; she knew her own defense was crumbling and she didn't have a leg to stand on, but her ego wasn't going down without a fight. It had to get one last dig in before she realized she had to capitulate.


Exactly.

I love that Starlight is actually so much less than she seems at the outset; she projects this image of an all-powerful villain, but she's really just a talented unicorn harbouring a lot of pain. She tries to relieve it by hurting Twilight, but taking revenge on someone who's given up trying to fight you and started trying to help you just... doesn't work. There's only one way for that to end.

On a different note, I don't imagine I'm the only one to feel the similarity between the burnt-out future from this episode and a scene from a particularly classic episode of Doctor Who from the 70s?

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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:02 am

Wayoshi wrote:Ponies drafting for the war feels like a juxtaposition that shouldn't exist ever

Eh, I think the writers have gone in that direction many, many times before, it's just never been allowed to progress to the level we saw here. Besides, alternative history is a goldmine for authors, storytellers, and cartoon writers alike. Everyone who writes loves dabbling in "what if" scenarios, and they're entertaining as heck to read and enjoy. And as Headless mentioned previously, all these alternate history scenarios still have the feeling and soul we all come to expect from the show.

But yeah, it's definitely not going to be everyone's thing.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:06 am

Am I the only one who wondered *what* part of Equestria Starlight's fillyhood home was?
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:06 am

Wayoshi wrote:Ponies drafting for the war feels like a juxtaposition that shouldn't exist ever :fluttersmith:


I was genuinely shocked they did that. They've pushed the envelope on this show before, but a nation at war? Complete with both actual fighting and the bleak consequences back home? Didn't expect that.

Daring Do wrote:Am I the only one who wondered *what* part of Equestria Starlight's fillyhood home was?


There's quite a few named cities on the map we've not been to yet. I wonder if it might've been one of those?
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:07 am

Just realized that this episode had a subtle product placement: Filly Starlight and Sunburst are shown playing Jenga with books.

Jenga is a Hasbro product :gotcha:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:08 am

Headless Horse wrote:Which line is this? Because I'm sure you're probably right, but I can't think what line you mean.

"Well, that didn't work."

(The story is not postable here.)
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:08 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
Exactly.

I love that Starlight is actually so much less than she seems at the outset; she projects this image of an all-powerful villain, but she's really just a talented unicorn harbouring a lot of pain. She tries to relieve it by hurting Twilight, but taking revenge on someone who's given up trying to fight you and started trying to help you just... doesn't work. There's only one way for that to end.



Moondancer was a talented unicorn harboring a lot of pain. Startlight is an OP Unicorn that can go toe-to-toe with the wielder of the element of magic an not break a sweat. And I think Moondancer had a far more tragic backstory. Starlight's friend moved away, and she apparently has never heard of mailing a letter. Twilight outright abandoned Moondancer and never gave her a second thought.

Sorry, but Starlight needed more than just her friend moving away, especially since it's so similar to Moondancer, who didn't try to destroy time. This episode spent too much time on the spectacle (fun as it was), and not nearly enough time developing this villain we're supposed to feel sympathy for.


On a different note, I don't imagine I'm the only one to feel the similarity between the burnt-out future from this episode and a scene from a particularly classic episode of Doctor Who from the 70s?

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Desolate future is a common enough trope. I doubt it was a Doctor Who reference directly.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:08 am

Daring Do wrote:Am I the only one who wondered *what* part of Equestria Starlight's fillyhood home was?

Not at all... seemed to be some rustic, hilly area that seemed faintly antique. I don't think it's on any version of the official map yet, unless it's Vanhoover or something (and I doubt it was specified in the script).
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:18 am

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I liked this closing as well. I guess I'm sentimental, but I like it when Pony (or any show) makes the viewer feel they're part of the moment. They seem to be saying "Thanks for watching, friends." :allears:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

I liked how when they landed in Tirek's timeline, Twilight and Spike just glanced at each other before peacing out again.

Reminded me of Charles Wallace and Gaudior in A Swiftly Tilting Planet, landing in a post-apocalyptic warzone. And probably a ton of other things.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:19 am

PonyHag714 wrote:Image

I liked this closing as well. I guess I'm sentimental, but I like it when Pony (or any show) makes the viewer feel they're part of what's happening. They seem to be saying "Thanks for watching, friends." :allears:


:gotcha: Except for Bulk Biceps. He's too busy checking out Fluttershy.


edit:
:yay: Doctor/Rose pairing!
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:20 am

The Doctor wrote:Moondancer was a talented unicorn harboring a lot of pain. Startlight is an OP Unicorn that can go toe-to-toe with the wielder of the element of magic an not break a sweat. And I think Moondancer had a far more tragic backstory. Starlight's friend moved away, and she apparently has never heard of mailing a letter. Twilight outright abandoned Moondancer and never gave her a second thought.

Sorry, but Starlight needed more than just her friend moving away, especially since it's so similar to Moondancer, who didn't try to destroy time. This episode spent too much time on the spectacle (fun as it was), and not nearly enough time developing this villain we're supposed to feel sympathy for.


It isn't a competition, though. The person with the most tragic backstory doesn't get assigned a greater amount of pain, nor are they gifted with the ability to handle that pain better. Moondancer opted to withdraw from the world, while Starlight wanted to change it. That's just who those two characters are.

And again, Starlight didn't "try to destroy time". She tried to break up a group of friends, with the unwitting and unintentional side-effect of also destroying time (and when she knew for sure, she stopped). I felt sympathy enough for her, though I'm a bit of an easy mark, maybe.

The Doctor wrote:

Desolate future is a common enough trope. I doubt it was a Doctor Who reference directly.


Oh, sure. Wasn't necessarily suggesting it was a deliberate reference, though it even does the whole "let me take you to the future so you can see for yourself" thing that Pyramids does.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:21 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
It isn't a competition, though. The person with the most tragic backstory doesn't get assigned a greater amount of pain, nor are they gifted with the ability to handle that pain better. Moondancer opted to withdraw from the world, while Starlight wanted to change it. That's just who those two characters are.

And again, Starlight didn't "try to destroy time". She tried to break up a group of friends, with the unwitting and unintentional side-effect of also destroying time (and when she knew for sure, she stopped). I felt sympathy enough for her, though I'm a bit of an easy mark, maybe.


Not a competition, but "friend moved away" seems an incredibly petty reason for what Starlight did. I just can't feel much sympathy.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:26 am

People are saying Starlight didn't do basic things to get back in touch, but let's give some credit here... based on Sunburst's actions on screen, he seemed like a dick, didn't return the feelings of friendship as strongly to Starlight, and once he gets his magic mark he's off to Canterlot without a care in the world

Until Sunburst is addressed more, that's my headcanon at least :pinkieshrug:

EDIT: Now why Starlight is so attached to Sunburst and this breaks her, unfortunately the episode just ignores. Amending Fences did a far better job at this with Moondancer to Twilight (albeit it wasn't exactly fleshed out either there)
Last edited by Wayoshi on Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Nov 29, 2015 12:27 am

The Doctor wrote:
Not a competition, but "friend moved away" seems an incredibly petty reason for what Starlight did. I just can't feel much sympathy.


The real message of the episode is that Twist is a paragon of virtue.
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