S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

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Re: S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:46 pm

This was truly a delightful episode, and it was interesting to see more of the story of the two sisters.

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Love what you’ve been doing with the room, Sweetie Belle... Compare and contrast with her room at the Carousel Boutique:
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Looks like she has a good sized portion of the top floor at her disposal.

A thing that strikes me on rewatching is that which is not there, namely the absence of their parents. Rarity entertained at their parents’ home during Sweetie Belle’s fifth birthday, and rather than storming home after dropping off the dresses, Sweetie Belle goes upstairs, even if she is furious with her perplexed sister.

Their parents must be doing a lot of traveling.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:50 pm

Peregrine wrote:Regarding Luna's eccentricity; in Sleepless in Ponyville she appeared in Scootaloo's dreams to comfort her. In this episode it seemed like she was actually directing Sweetie Belle's nightmares. Maybe she purposefully toned herself down while speaking directly with Sweetie Belle and let the dreams speak for her? Being able to give somepony horrible nightmares while remaining a somewhat distant source of comfort is a damn good way to teach somepony a lesson.


In fact, Luna doesn't say a word after "Perhaps you haven't heard the whole story." She just lets the dream speak for itself and lets Sweetie Belle come to her own conclusions. Scootaloo's problem was one that she could be told the solution, but still need to defeat her fear to beat it. Sweetie Belle, on the other hand, was not in a state of mind to be accepting of somepony telling her what to do. Thus, Luna showed her what she needed to see so that she could come to her senses on her own. Definitely a great way of teaching.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:56 pm

Perpetual Lurker wrote:
In fact, Luna doesn't say a word after "Perhaps you haven't heard the whole story." She just lets the dream speak for itself and lets Sweetie Belle come to her own conclusions. Scootaloo's problem was one that she could be told the solution, but still need to defeat her fear to beat it. Sweetie Belle, on the other hand, was not in a state of mind to be accepting of somepony telling her what to do. Thus, Luna showed her what she needed to see so that she could come to her senses on her own. Definitely a great way of teaching.


That, and having the sense to bring needle and thread, when stitching is needed... :ohboy: :unenthused: That was a nice touch, and demonstrated that Princess Luna has Sweetie Belle’s number.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:58 pm

Like I said, I have no problem with Luna acting Celestia-like with the kids. Even Celestia can't handle it all. Luna even was up in the day to make sure the finishing touch was delivered.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:00 pm

Afro Pony was wearing a wig...

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Postby reidransom (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:03 pm



Kefka please make this one official right away thanks.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:17 pm

reidransom wrote:
Kefka please make this one official right away thanks.

Also Image and Image please.
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Postby MasterOfKnees (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:26 pm

This was a cool episode. It felt like a combination of Sisterhooves and Sleepless, with a good touch of A Christmas Carol included.

I'll admit that my favorite part about the episode was the animation in the dream sequences. There was a lot of interesting and abstract imagery, which usually isn't something the show does very often, Party of One and Return of Harmony are the only ones who really crank it up as far as I can recall, but it still works really well whenever they do it. This does make the climax feel rather tame in comparison though, since it's just a chase after a box, but that's how it goes when you have such an awesome sequence in the middle.

The writing itself doesn't really bring much new to the table from what we've previously seen, but it's the first Polsky episode in forever that hasn't had a cringe moment in it for me, in fact it's the first Polsky episode since S1 that I think is above decent writing quality. That doesn't mean it's a marvel of any kind, but at least it didn't leave me with a bad taste like nearly all his episodes do.

Regardless of it all, I don't think it's as strong as either Sisterhooves and Sleepless, and I'm not even one who ranks the former very high. Sisterhooves feels more sincere, it doesn't need the help of a dreamweaving pony or a career-threatening decision to bring the two sisters together, and the blame is on both ends, so it's only really half of what Sisterhooves is in the end. Sleepless has a much bigger impact since Scootaloo knows what's up, but it's the struggle with her subconciousness which is the focus, where as Sweetie in this episode only ever reaches the step of finding out what's wrong before she takes action, which makes it feel like she only goes half the way Scootaloo did in Sleepless. I think this episode could have been stronger if Luna wasn't involved, if it was Sweetie's subconciousness which simply made her regret the decision it'd have felt both more heartwarming and relatable in the end, it'd have taken the best of the two other sister episodes and combined them. However, as it is now it feels like it only really walks half the way of the same route the other two did, which makes it have less of an impact.

It's still a cool episode in general though, but I don't foresee myself booting it up very often when I can go the entire mile with the other two sister episodes.
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Postby TheNegaverser (?) » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:48 pm

This was a great episode! Pretty light on the comedy (which is a bit unusual for Polsky), but I'm always glad to see further proof that this show can pull off petty much anything it wants.

Obviously, the dream sequence animations were super cool. I'm loving the dream-walker Luna thing. Yes, I miss the Canterlot Voice, but as it was a result of social awkwardness stemming from a 1000 year banishment, I would be disappointed if Luna didn't grow out of that temporary phase. And I enjoy seeing her guiding the kids with their problems.

If anything, this episode has further amplified my opinion that a Celestia episode is desperately needed. Please guys, make it happen! :sweetiefrown:

But all-in-all, a very sweet, heartwarming, and lovable pony episode. This show continues to impress me on all fronts! :party:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:22 am

God damn I loved this one. :ponydrugs:

I'm not sure what I was expecting, but Pony Christmas Carol I was not. :allears:

What I really appreciated, though, was the rather unusual, even novel texture of it. It's talky, it's grown-up, it's subtle, and there's hardly any of the comedy we've come to expect from even the heaviest-feeling episodes. Despite the exotic new concepts like the cloud nightmare and the dreamscape and Sapphire Shores' Canterlot studio, it felt like this was one of the most down-to-earth, character-driven slices-of-life I've ever seen the show do.

The fact that it was not even a "CMC episode" so much as a Sweetie Belle episode was really what put it into that category. Up till now we've never really had an episode that put quite so much individual focus on any one of the CMCs, except perhaps Somepony to Watch Over Me. And the sheer amount of material that Sweetie got to deliver, all the new sides of her she got to showcase, all the backstory and villainy and hopes-and-dreams it revealed about her, have for the first time elevated her to the level of "main cast", and quite unexpectedly ahead of her two compatriots. I feel like even Scootaloo's part in Sleepless wasn't quite as overtly "we are promoting this character to the headliner short-list" as this one was.

But it's part of the same continuing narrative. Certainly they're consciously adding to the Luna arc that Sleepless began. Somepony gave us a similar level of focus on Apple Bloom, but it still felt like a slapsticky comedy episode about misunderstandings and sisterly hijinks rather than a serious character study. This one felt like a deeply emotional conflict between two real people, both full of pride and both image-conscious to a fault in a way that impedes their ability to communicate the way they wish they could. It's icing on the cake that we got to see Sweetie Belle using her magic—as foreshadowed nicely in Twilight Time—in the same kind of offhand, not-drawing-attention-to-itself way that other unicorns do. The show's sending a loud-and-clear message that these kids are growing up, and they're not going to try to hide Claire Corlett's voice change—they're going to embrace it and write around it. And the result is a Sweetie Belle who's as complex and as worthy of exploration as any of the grown-ups.

(At the same time, they're continuing to be coy about Scootaloo's flying—she almost made it to the windowsill!)

It cracked me up that the chase after the box at the end was almost silent. :gotcha: Rarity wasn't yelling for her sister and her hellion friends to stop or come back or anything—she was just fucking gunning for them.

So many wonderful little bits of writing, like the "showtunes" thing, the song titles, Sapphire Shores' vamping (so great that she's back and with more lines than ever before! —And it's amazing to see her out of costume and in her no-nonsense backstage persona rather than all dolled up in jewels. Who knew it would take until Season 4 for that to happen?), the "class" thing, the whole little "She has known about this for weeks, right? :gah: " conversation. As much as people are extolling the animation, I really think this is one of the most strongly-written episodes I've seen out of the show in a long, long time. And so much of that is down to the texture, the grown-up feel of it—and the abrupt ending which didn't feel abrupt relative to, say, episodes of some random sitcom. It's only abrupt in the context of FiM, where you always expect there to be at least some form of friendship-lesson lip service. This one ended in the middle of a conversation with an aaww and a hug. And that's a fun new thing for them to try, in an episode full of fun new things that they tried. And pulled off admirably.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:32 am

I want to collect a book full of Physical copies of all of headless posts. They are always soo awesome! :awesomedash:
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:35 am

Overall a pretty good episode. Luna is best ghosts of Christmas past, present, and future. :-P

Oh man though. Having that giant eye on that headdress might put Alex Jones and other members of the tin foil hat brigade into a tizzy.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:40 am

:allears: I want a full on Pony Christmas Carol now.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:40 am

The Doctor wrote:Afro Pony was wearing a wig...

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If Sapphire Shores shows up again, I wonder if her cutie mark will still be covered. After all, for the single glimpse that we got way back in A Dog and Pony Show, she didn't have one. Seems like that'd make for a funny running gag if they actually choose to go with it.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:42 am

Oh, and this scene:

:allears: Make me a dress, Rarity, please?
:whine: Go away! You know I don't do that anymore!

It plays like self-parody yet feels more "real" than show-within-a-show fantasy scenes ever do. It's the writers playing with their Dark Helmet dolls again, and it's just glorious to see.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:48 am

Sweetie used magic here? :starity:

On a general note, I wasn't expecting the stitching to become a major plot point. Felt like a reason to make that "big bummer" joke that kind of missed.

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You're not winning against Lock Pony, Sweetie.

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PONY APPLY THE LIPSTICK

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Aren't you glad you WEREN'T noticed, Sweetie? :lol:

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Now the orange-maned colt on the left - I'm pretty sure we saw him in Twilight Time. I don't recognize any of the others off-hand, but one of them kinda acted like DT...

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I caught this nice touch live - the window is upside down.

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My my Rarity, what ugly colors you have suddenly... :v:

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Team Negative Neon Lights

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Yes.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:53 am

Yeah, here:

SlateSlabrock wrote:Image[/*]


And oh man, the negative colors scene—I had a fleeting thought that that was their way of show-canonizing the inverted color schemes on the packaging for those toys :gotcha:

I thought the bit with Sweetie "swimming" through the dream-water (with the dolphins) was pretty amazing and that whole scene was eerie and appropriately disorienting. The animation really was something special here.



E: I would have gone outside and run shrieking giddily through the forest if there had been a lipstick smear on the floor after Sweetie faceplanted in her flashback
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:58 am

It's weird how natural it felt for Sweetie Belle to magically lift that headdress out of the box. Really, I thought the process of her learning magic would've been the subject of an entire episode, not just a thing on the side in Twilight Time.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:02 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:It's weird how natural it felt for Sweetie Belle to magically lift that headdress out of the box. Really, I thought the process of her learning magic would've been the subject of an entire episode, not just a thing on the side in Twilight Time.


Telekinesis seems to be the first and most basic thing a unicorn will learn.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:07 am

The Doctor wrote:
Telekinesis seems to be the first and most basic thing a unicorn will learn.

But still, given that her total magic usage before then had amounted to a single, possibly involuntary spark, I just expected more focus on it when it finally happened. If she keeps hanging around the library then maybe we'll still get that episode if she decides to try learning any major spells.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:12 am

It almost seems like there are more mini-arcs than we even know what to do with this season. I remember back in S2 when we were flipping out over a callback like "Yay?" in Best Pet or noticing that Rainbow Dash was reading Daring Do books post-Read-It-And-Weep. We were fondly remembering how in S1 they would do things like have Fluttershy remember "hop, skip, and jump" from Dragonshy when escaping the hydra in FPK, and kind of wistfully thinking that S2 was noticeably lighter on the time-passing continuity and inter-episode references than the show was in its early days. Oh for a Grand Galloping Gala for the modern seasons to call their own! :sadrarity:

But now it's like an embarrassment of riches. We've got, what:

- The box/keys thing
- Discord as a recurring villain/manipulator/Q/mentor/asshole
- Princess Twilight easing into her new role
- Luna dreamwalking through the kids' minds
- Scootaloo and flying
- Scootaloo and Rainbow Dash
- Sweetie Belle and magic
- The Equestria Games
- The Wonderbolts arc
- The old castle
- Rarity being Sapphire Shores' "favorite designer"
- Cadance bonding with Twilight on an adult level
- Spike bonding with the CMCs

I mean, seriously, I could go on for hours probably. I'm not even talking about "Oh lol, they mentioned a thing from earlier in the show" kind of stuff, which if I was I'd be listing countless things like the subverted "yay" intro to Breezies. I'm talking about legitimate, genuine inter-episode arcs and indications of the passage of time.

If anyone still thinks the show these days is lacking in continuity compared to its early style, man, I don't even know.
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Postby The Outlander (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:13 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:But still, given that her total magic usage before then had amounted to a single, possibly involuntary spark, I just expected more focus on it when it finally happened. If she keeps hanging around the library then maybe we'll still get that episode if she decides to try learning any major spells.


I think stuff "on the side" like this is really the only way to properly learn your special pony ability. Since Unicorns are born with magic and Pegasi are born with wings, I'm assuming you need to let it come naturally at first, and then start working on the finer mechanics after your body and mind get the basics down on their own.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:20 am

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:v:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:23 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:It's weird how natural it felt for Sweetie Belle to magically lift that headdress out of the box.

Apparently so much so that I didn't really notice!
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:24 am


It goes without saying, but yes, that's the same sleep mask Rarity wore in "Sisterhooves Social"
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Postby The Outlander (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:27 am

I just realized how hilarious that sleep mask looks. What's with the bows? Are they a reference to something, is it a common look for real sleep masks, or is it just Rarity being Rarity?
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Postby Ragnar (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:29 am

Wayoshi wrote: Image

I love how unyielding Luna's expression is, here.

I like to think show!Luna is the sister in charge of hard truths. Celestia gives encouragement, cajoles, discusses, kisses babies and so one, but Luna lays out the facts and then delivers an ultimatum. She does something sort of similar in Crystal Empire part 1, where Celestia is the one to tell Twilight she won't fail, while Luna is the one to give Twilight a Look. The message of the Look is strictly implicit, but it goes something like, "You certainly can fail, and the consequences for failure are unacceptable."
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:33 am

The Outlander wrote:
I think stuff "on the side" like this is really the only way to properly learn your special pony ability. Since Unicorns are born with magic and Pegasi are born with wings, I'm assuming you need to let it come naturally at first, and then start working on the finer mechanics after your body and mind get the basics down on their own.

It's a bit hard to tell when it comes to the use of magic, though. Twilight got started with magic after intensely studying it, though of course magic ended up being a much bigger deal for her than it is for most ponies. And Rarity had that big scene of getting dragged by her own magical power out into the badlands and to that rock. So, if Sweetie Belle ended up like either of them, then I figured the show would make a big deal of it as well.
Ragnar wrote:I like to think show!Luna is the sister in charge of hard truths. Celestia gives encouragement, cajoles, discusses, kisses babies and so one, but Luna lays out the facts and then delivers an ultimatum. She does something sort of similar in Crystal Empire part 1, where Celestia is the one to tell Twilight she won't fail, while Luna is the one to give Twilight a Look. The message of the Look is strictly implicit, but it goes something like, "You certainly can fail, and the consequences for failure are unacceptable."

That's a big part of why I liked Luna's behavior in today's episode. She actually said little to Sweetie Belle, instead just showing her the truth of the past and the future consequences of her actions. It felt far more meaningful than :speakest: FACE YOUR FEARS :speakest: Luna in SiP.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:05 am

Oh, and in case "Wilhelm screams" counts as an arc-type thing or at least a running gag, I was not ready to hear it as someone's reaction to Rarity's headdress falling apart :gotcha:
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:07 am

Bleh, the Wilhelm scream is one of the dumbest running gags, not just in this show, but the entertainment industry in general. It will never, NEVER, be funny.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:10 am

I submit that it's funny in a "My Little Pony, ladies and gentlemen" kind of way.

It's meta as hell, but sometimes that's the level on which I still get the biggest laugh out of this show.
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:11 am

Instead of Doom Paul...

Doom Luna:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q9TYUr-Teo
:speakest: You could've prevented this.
:speakest: It didn't have to end like this.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:11 am

Headless Horse wrote:I submit that it's funny in a "My Little Pony, ladies and gentlemen" kind of way.

It's meta as hell, but sometimes that's the level on which I still get the biggest laugh out of this show.


I find it distracting and annoying. It's neither meta nor a "My Little Pony, ladies and gentlemen" thing (seriously?), to me it's one of those jokes that the crew (not just this one, though) thinks is hilarious, but in reality is pretty lazy and kinda crap.
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Postby FightingDreamer (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:21 am

Funny's a subjective thing, but I still find it amusing.

Also, great episode. Sweetie squeaking on the last "DRESSES!" nearly made me lose it.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:29 am

Yea, it's subjective. The Wilhelm itself isn't funny per se, so much as 'Oh hey, it's Wilhelm again,'.

It's like an Easter Egg. Finding it is the fun part.
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Postby Rainbow Crash (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:53 am

5 year old Sweetie Belle was so goddamn cute :ohboy:

Ragnar wrote:I like to think show!Luna is the sister in charge of hard truths. Celestia gives encouragement, cajoles, discusses, kisses babies and so one, but Luna lays out the facts and then delivers an ultimatum. She does something sort of similar in Crystal Empire part 1, where Celestia is the one to tell Twilight she won't fail, while Luna is the one to give Twilight a Look. The message of the Look is strictly implicit, but it goes something like, "You certainly can fail, and the consequences for failure are unacceptable."

I know there's some disconnect between Luna in the show and the comics, but I think I prefer this Luna. It just seems to make more sense to me.
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:58 am

Rainbow Crash wrote:5 year old Sweetie Belle was so goddamn cute :ohboy:


I know there's some disconnect between Luna in the show and the comics, but I think I prefer this Luna. It just seems to make more sense to me.



I like both Luna's and it's fine for Luna to have different personas, The Luna that confronts the CMC is work Luna, the one in the comics is fun Luna. Basically she acts less serious when not on the clock, least that's my take on it. :v:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:01 am

I don't think there's quite as much a deliberate disconnect between the show and comics as it is that the comics have given Luna and especially Celestia more attention than the show. When that happens, of course there'll be oddities between how the comics wrote them and how we imagine them to be.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:04 am

And there's got to be some significance to the fact that Waking Luna (particularly in this episode) had a very different, much more casual voice than Dream Luna. What that significance is, well, there you've got me.

:amazed: Wait... am I dreaming again?
:speakest: LOL NO I AM JUST HANGING OUT BACKSTAGE DURING REHEARSAL LIKE A COMPLETELY NORMAL PONY
:sweetiefrown:
:speakest: OH SO AS I WAS SAYING IN YOUR DREAM
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:30 am

I find Willhelm Screams to be distracting and they totally take me out of the moment. They remind me that I'm not immersed in the universe, I'm just watching a show where a SFX guy has to put in all the noises I'm hearing. :-/
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