S07E10: A Royal Problem

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Re: S07E10: A Royal Problem

Postby adiwan (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 9:42 pm

It's funny that the royals read the Foal Free Press
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 10:33 pm

:unenthused: Yes, I ate that on purpose. It's full of peely goodness. You should try it some time.


Casual dialog from the princesses in this episode is a six year breath of fresh air for me. More than the CMC getting their cutie marks. :-I
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 11:01 pm

The Doctor wrote:Well, that was just as bad as I thought it would be.

Celestia and Luna are idiots for the whole episode.


I think you're wrong, and I think that you watched this episode and interpreted Luna and Celestia's behaviour as "They're idiots" is a little worrying. They act like two people who've become distant towards one another as a result of taxing schedules and a lack of meaningful interaction. They act like two people who assume that because they have a really hard job, that they must have the only really hard job. These are very, very really scenarios, and I feel if you applied your "They're idiots" response to a similar example in the real world you wouldn't like the reaction you got.

I still want to see the "Celestia and Luna solve a problem together" story you were hoping for, but this was categorically not the disaster you were predicting.

Wayoshi wrote:The wise sages Celestia/Luna were kinda built up to be as demigods has slowly deteriorated.


I mean... good? I much prefer a nuanced character who has the powers of a demigod and great wisdom to impart, but also humanity, insecurities and regular emotions underneath. We've seen plenty of evidence of the former two categories over the last seven years, even if we haven't actually had an entire episode dedicated to them.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 11:16 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
I think you're wrong, and I think that you watched this episode and interpreted Luna and Celestia's behaviour as "They're idiots" is a little worrying. They act like two people who've become distant towards one another as a result of taxing schedules and a lack of meaningful interaction. They act like two people who assume that because they have a really hard job, that they must have the only really hard job. These are very, very really scenarios, and I feel if you applied your "They're idiots" response to a similar example in the real world you wouldn't like the reaction you got.

I still want to see the "Celestia and Luna solve a problem together" story you were hoping for, but this was categorically not the disaster you were predicting.


The entire story is set up on the idea that after 1000 years of estrangement, these two learned exactly nothing about dealing with each other. Like immediately after their touching reunion in the pilot Celestia was just like "well, go take care of the Night", I'll see you are Cadance's wedding".

I'm totally fine with these two having problems. That's family, happens all the time. But there is no wisdom, or knowledge of their years here. They have to have it spelled out to them. A life and death battle and 1000 years of estrangement teaches them nothing, but a visit from the Writer's Pet solves all.

I wasn't a huge fan of the recent Celestia and Luna Friends Forever comic, but at least in that they came to the realization there was a problem and solved it on their own.

This episode was just "lets add more to the list of things these two can't do" to me. There were ways this episode could have been done that didn't have to take Celestia and Luna down yet a few more pegs.

No, it wasn't the worst episode ever, and I can admit there were a few nice moments in the episode, but the entire execution of the premise was awful.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 11:28 pm

The Doctor wrote:
The entire story is set up on the idea that after 1000 years of estrangement, these two learned exactly nothing about dealing with each other. Like immediately after their touching reunion in the pilot Celestia was just like "well, go take care of the Night", I'll see you are Cadance's wedding".

I'm totally fine with these two having problems. That's family, happens all the time. But there is no wisdom, or knowledge of their years here. They have to have it spelled out to them. A life and death battle and 1000 years of estrangement teaches them nothing, but a visit from the Writer's Pet solves all.


I think the scenario you've described is actually pretty plausible. It's like you finally see a family member again after you parted on bad terms many years ago, and it goes great and you get along and promise to one another that things will be different now.

But they're not. Life gets in the way, just like it did in the first place. Luna and Celestia want to be good to one another, but their responsibilities leave little room for it and even less room for each to understand what the other goes through every day. Starlight doesn't "spell it out to them", she executes the oldest trick in the book ("walk a mile in my shoes") and they do the rest on their own.

The Doctor wrote:I wasn't a huge fan of the recent Celestia and Luna Friends Forever comic, but at least in that they came to the realization there was a problem and solved it on their own.

This episode was just "lets add more to the list of things these two can't do" to me. There were ways this episode could have been done that didn't have to take Celestia and Luna down yet a few more pegs.


I truly don't understand this. Why do you think they've been diminished? What is it that you think they can't do after this episode? They ended the episode stronger than they began it.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 11:36 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
I think the scenario you've described is actually pretty plausible. It's like you finally see a family member again after you parted on bad terms many years ago, and it goes great and you get along and promise to one another that things will be different now.

But they're not. Life gets in the way, just like it did in the first place. Luna and Celestia want to be good to one another, but their responsibilities leave little room for it and even less room for each to understand what the other goes through every day. Starlight doesn't "spell it out to them", she executes the oldest trick in the book ("walk a mile in my shoes") and they do the rest on their own.



I truly don't understand this. Why do you think they've been diminished? What is it that you think they can't do after this episode? They ended the episode stronger than they began it.


They ended the pilot stronger than they started, and well, that apparently meant nothing.

Like I said before, give Celestia and Luna some competence and have them aware of a problem that needs to be addressed. Don't make them totally oblivious to it and needing to have it shoved in their face. These two can't defend their country, and now they can't even deal with each other without help.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 11:52 pm

What I want to know is why was Celestia opening up a shopping mall?

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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 11:55 pm

The Doctor wrote:They ended the pilot stronger than they started, and well, that apparently meant nothing.


What? Of course it meant something! It was reconciliation after 1000 years of separation!

It seems like you're suggesting that just because they "made up" back in the pilot that their relationship should now be perfect and complete, which strikes me as an incredibly simplistic attitude towards relationships. That reconciliation was a big step forwards in repairing relations between them, but nothing important is ever done in a single step.

The Doctor wrote:Like I said before, give Celestia and Luna some competence and have them aware of a problem that needs to be addressed. Don't make them totally oblivious to it and needing to have it shoved in their face. These two can't defend their country, and now they can't even deal with each other without help.


What's so wrong with needing help? The Mane 6 have saved Equestria a bunch of times, and they need help constantly.

Celestia in particular already spent 1000 years doing everything without help.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:04 am

PaulloDEC wrote:seems like you're suggesting that just because they "made up" back in the pilot that their relationship should now be perfect and complete, which strikes me as an incredibly simplistic attitude towards relationships.



The Doctor wrote:I'm totally fine with these two having problems.
:unenthused:




PaulloDEC wrote:
What's so wrong with needing help? The Mane 6 have saved Equestria a bunch of times, and they need help constantly.


Two things here.
1. That's kind of it. They're already shown to need help. What's wrong with, just once, showing them as being able to take care of something on their own?

2. Let them realize they need help. I said earlier in this thread that this episode could have worked a lot better if Celestia and Luna realized their was a problem, and called Starlight to swap their cutie marks. Let them a. come up with a clever solution to their own problem. and b. Let Startlight actually have someone's permission before screwing with them.
Last edited by The Doctor on Sun May 21, 2017 12:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:06 am

The Doctor wrote:
:unenthused:


Okay, then what was your implication in regards to the Pilot? In what other sense did you mean that it "meant nothing"?
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:09 am

Adelor Lyon wrote:What I want to know is why was Celestia opening up a shopping mall?

All commerce must bear the royal stamp.

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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:11 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
Okay, then what was your implication in regards to the Pilot? In what other sense did you mean that it "meant nothing"?




Of course I don't expect them to never have problems with each other, but given their history I don't see it as unrealistic to expect them to both to approach one another with those problems so they don't fester like they did 1000 years ago. These two have seen extremely drastic consequences of not dealing with each other. No, maybe they won't be able to solve the problem themselves, but they sure as heck should be able to know there is a problem and seek a solution.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:21 am

Maybe it's a cartoon for girls and it shouldn't be a surprise that they act like cartoon characters and not wise 1000 year old demigods.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:36 am

Celestia and Luna also have been shown to like, rub each other the wrong way since forever. Besides Nightmare Moon, we have the Crystal Empire and Slice of Life off the top of my head.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:42 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:Maybe it's a cartoon for girls and it shouldn't be a surprise that they act like cartoon characters and not wise 1000 year old demigods.


I hope by "girls" you specifically meant little kids, because Faust's whole goal was to make a show for girls that *didn't* stink.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:45 am

Dexanth wrote:Celestia and Luna also have been shown to like, rub each other the wrong way since forever. Besides Nightmare Moon, we have the Crystal Empire and Slice of Life off the top of my head.



Crystal Empire was a disagreement on how to handle a threat.

Slice of Life was a small argument that they didn't let ruin the day and was clearly something they both brushed off given that they both seemed to enjoy the wedding.

And both are examples of them confronting each other with disagreements and problems and not ignoring them.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 12:55 am

Daring Do wrote:
I hope by "girls" you specifically meant little kids, because Faust's whole goal was to make a show for girls that *didn't* stink.


I've made nearly 12000 posts in this forum, don't worry I didn't mean that pejoratively :v:

I didn't mean to imply it'd be any different if it was a "cartoon for boys", but I guess I tend to stress that part because it's silly when people go "it's not for little girls, it's for people of all ages and genders cause it's actually good (and it references things)" :-I
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 3:15 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:
I've made nearly 12000 posts in this forum, don't worry I didn't mean that pejoratively :v:

I didn't mean to imply it'd be any different if it was a "cartoon for boys", but I guess I tend to stress that part because it's silly when people go "it's not for little girls, it's for people of all ages and genders cause it's actually good (and it references things)" :-I


Ah, okay. Yeah, that's fair - I totally agree with you.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 3:35 am

Praise the sun.
:gotcha:

The Doctor wrote:

Crystal Empire was a disagreement on how to handle a threat.

Slice of Life was a small argument that they didn't let ruin the day and was clearly something they both brushed off given that they both seemed to enjoy the wedding.

And both are examples of them confronting each other with disagreements and problems and not ignoring them.

I don't know how familiar you with a lot of different relationships, but those small arguments usually erode a relationship until they become big problems. It's like the idioms "the honey moon is over" and the "seven year itch" both implying a degeneration of a relationship over time. We were just seeing Celestia and Luna in the middle of that.

But I understand the need to see them prove their worth by defeating an opponent that overpowered everyone else or preforming some mastermind chest move to outwit an enemy. But right now they are still portrayed as being pretty powerful for they are currently the only ponies that can move the celestial bodies. Until Twi or Star can somehow do the same thing, they still have a few more pegs to knock down.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 3:38 am

Soft Snow wrote:Praise the sun.
:gotcha:


I don't know how familiar you with a lot of different relationships, but those small arguments usually erode a relationship until they become big problems. It's like the idioms "the honey moon is over" and the "seven year itch" both implying a degeneration of a relationship over time. We were just seeing Celestia and Luna in the middle of that.

But I understand the need to see them prove their worth by defeating an opponent that overpowered everyone else or preforming some mastermind chest move to outwit an enemy. But right now they are still portrayed as being pretty powerful for they are currently the only ponies that can move the celestial bodies. Until Twi or Star can somehow do the same thing, they still have a few more pegs to knock down.
:allears:


First Hearthswarming episode says regular unicorns used to do it (granted, Journal of the Two Sisters clarifies it took 6 of them, and they would become drained if they did it for too long).
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 6:06 am

One note about dreams: Celestia and Luna seem to do things differently... or, at least, that's the way it seems from the outside.

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From "Bloom and Gloom":
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From "Do Princesses Dream of Magic Sheep?":
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Also, we've seen that Fluttershy dream before:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 6:14 am

That was a fun episode. Twilight was such a HUGE dork in this episode, and I loved her for it :lol: The Princesses was played really well here as well, as well as Starlight.

One thing, anyone noticed that the black spots on Luna's flank got transferred to Celestia, even though in "Twilight's Kingdom" it was evidently part of her fur and not the actual cutie mark? Although in this case it's justified because, otherwise, the moon would be invisible on Celestia's light-fur.

I think this is the first Starlight-heavy episode where they DIDN'T bring up her past. Took a while to reach this point :v:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 1:07 pm

Thinking back on Daybreaker, I wonder what would be worse for Equestria, eternal night or eternal day. :unenthused:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 3:58 pm

So, I did a rewatch. Celestia is probably never going to get a focus episode, so I figured I should try to find some positives in this one.

And I still don't like it that much.

But I can sit back and appreciate some good parts. In the end, what kills the episode for me is the set up. I stand by my previous statements about fixing this episode by having them control the situation, rather than have it forced on them. I still don't find it believable that these two characters who have seen the absolute worst consequences of not dealing with each other, would be so oblivious to each other.

Once the Cutie Marks are switched the episode is alright. Luna's antics are fun (but fall well short of her antics in the Luna micro) and Celestia's dream visits were good. She even gets to defeat an enemy for once, so, yay.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 4:03 pm

If they could control the situation themselves, they wouldn't have had the problem to begin with.

As they couldn't, they needed an outside force to correct their lack of control.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 4:05 pm

Aramek wrote:If they could control the situation themselves, they wouldn't have had the problem to begin with.

As they couldn't, they needed an outside force to correct their lack of control.



You can recognize a problem and seek and outside help to solve the problem. That's why I said I think them summoning Starlight would have worked much better. They want to try a day in each other's shoes. Having them not just ignore the problem, but not even recognize it, just makes it seem like the Nightmare Moon thing had absolutely no impact in how they deal with each other.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 4:31 pm

See, for me, I saw it through the lens of family/spouse relationship problems :

Both of you know you are wrong. Both of you also feel slighted. And both of you don't quite understand how-why it's happening and it starts compounding over time until it becomes more about emotional validation over anything else.

And we see them right as they are entering the emotional validation stage. Before now? Well, it was just a lot of little things; any given day ignoring pancakes or lavender? Neither would blink. But after a legion of them, well, they're blinking, but it's hard to say what's wrong.

And further when what's wrong does come out - as Starlight puts bluntly - now they are nursing hurt feelings enough that admitting they both don't understand isn't something they are ready to do yet, because the hurt is still too acute.

It's very, very - well, it's part of being an individual. The Greek Gods were all about their flaws, after all.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 4:34 pm

Plus, we get to see Starlight acting on her gut to fix things with magic and suffers no consequences for it because she's constantly right.

Starlight just can't stop winning.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 4:39 pm

Aramek wrote:Plus, we get to see Starlight acting on her gut to fix things with magic and suffers no consequences for it because she's constantly right.

Starlight just can't stop winning.


Well, that, and she kind of was pretty chill - and would have stayed that way - except she had to deal with constant :twonk: which made her more stressed out until she went berserk and did the thing.

So really, this is Twilight's fault, which is part of why the Swap works so well for me.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 4:45 pm

Dexanth wrote:So really, this is Twilight's fault.

I feel this is a card we should hang onto.

We'll get a lot of use out of it.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sun May 21, 2017 6:33 pm

Aramek wrote:I feel this is a card we should hang onto.

We'll get a lot of use out of it.


She is the Princess of Anxiety. :twonk:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 12:49 am

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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 1:09 am

After a first viewing, I liked it! Overall a good episode and the sort of thing I'd been hoping for. Although I'm not sure this is how I always pictured Celestia. A little too grounded if you ask me.

It...does bring to light the question of what exactly happened with all those nightmares for the 1000 years Luna was gone.

Actually, a few more bits about how Celestia had to do double duty for 1000 years would have been good. They hinted a little at it with Daybreaker actually.

I do sort of wonder if we were supposed to gather that Starlight's projection of Daybreaker was drawing on Celestia's subconscious as much as Starlight's.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 1:28 am

Ransom wrote:After a first viewing, I liked it! Overall a good episode and the sort of thing I'd been hoping for. Although I'm not sure this is how I always pictured Celestia. A little too grounded if you ask me.

It...does bring to light the question of what exactly happened with all those nightmares for the 1000 years Luna was gone.

Actually, a few more bits about how Celestia had to do double duty for 1000 years would have been good. They hinted a little at it with Daybreaker actually.

I do sort of wonder if we were supposed to gather that Starlight's projection of Daybreaker was drawing on Celestia's subconscious as much as Starlight's.


I always figured the dream thing was something new. Never mentioned by anyone before, I think it was something new she and Celestia figured out as a way for her to engage her subjects at night.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 2:09 am

Yo, I loved this one. Sure, Celestia could've kept being the motherly but holier-than-thou type that Twilight saw her as way back at the beginning of all this, but where's the fun in that? We've known from the start that she wasn't perfect, since she had to fight her own sister 1000 years ago after neither of them were able to resolve their tiny differences and their relationship suffered a death by a thousand cuts. This episode showed us what one or two of those thousands of cuts were like, and how this time they could be stopped by someone else's assistance.

This episode is perhaps a reiteration that no, Celestia and Luna aren't utterly perfect in terms of wisdom and compassion for each other. Given their constant work and opposing schedules, it's clear how they needed help resolving their differences. If they were utterly perfect then they'd basically never get to show up except as an "I win" button, something we've known is boring ever since the show's early days when the Elements of Harmony were put to use that way. Personally, I'd rather have this take on them.

Daybreaker was also cool.

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 2:55 am

Ransom wrote:I do sort of wonder if we were supposed to gather that Starlight's projection of Daybreaker was drawing on Celestia's subconscious as much as Starlight's.


My impression is that once Luna or Celestia or anyone else joins a dream, it becomes a shared space both the dreamer and the interloper affect. Luna is an old hand at this, so she can just poof nightmares away, but that time she was dealing with her own nightmare, the whole town of Ponyville was brought into the same dream world. Nightmare Moon showed up in response to Starlight Glimmer's fears, but I suspect Daybreaker showed up in response to Celestia's.
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 4:18 pm

I am very mixed about this episode.

For one thing, I hate the whole end sequence with "Haha Celestia can't do anything on her own." thing they kept touting. Like, I know what she MEANT, she was talking about how important Luna was to her and how only Luna had the knowhow, and the same with Luna in the opposite situation, but the entire argument seemed a bit forced :v: Like, Celestia had been ruling the country on her own, and I really wish Luna had called her out on that during the last scene, if only to have Celestia say why that wasn't what she meant or how it was really awful to not have her best sister beside her for a thousand years or something like that.

I thought Starlight overreacting was totally in character and I think it would have helped the princesses even if the argument had been toned down a bit, which I thought it should have been to make them seem less like slightly older little kids instead of 1000 year old goddesses :v: Like, I'm not going the 'grr they're deities and this is a grown up show for grown ups' but if they'd changed it just a bit it would have been able to give a slight lesson to kids of 'haha even big cool people have silly arguments sometimes' or 'haha, even grownups actually are kinda like kids' instead of 'wow, grownups get upset over anything!' even if that is... sometimes accurate :v:

HOWEVER, the rest of the episode was good and the characterization was good. Starlight is showing real character growth with how much she CARES about Luna and Celestia. That's good! Those two are very much not part of her inner circle. Celestia's 'the boss's boss' and Luna's even farther removed, other than them having 'former villain' status, they share even less in common. Celestia getting to see all the dreams and obviously enjoying it for a while was great. Luna having to deal with being the smiley diplomat was great too.

On a final note, I am glad that Luna and Celestia worked it out themselves in the end, without Starlight putting her hoof into the mess beyond that spell in the first place :v:

Also, tiny music box Twilight was very cute :allears:
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 4:20 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:
Daybreaker was also cool.


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NIGHTMARE STAR
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon May 22, 2017 5:46 pm

Image Yes Starlight, now I'm quarreling with my younger sister. I sealed the door to her room.

Image *magics the doorway open*

:unenthused: Hey Starlight, did you come from my older sister's room? Is she still angry?

Image So the doorway is open again...OK, maybe I should make up with my sister.

Image Great! Time to try the heart piece maze!
Image You can't deny the prize, it may never fulfill you.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 1:04 am

Gloomy Rube wrote:HOWEVER, the rest of the episode was good and the characterization was good. Starlight is showing real character growth with how much she CARES about Luna and Celestia.


Character growth? She continues to violate others by forcing her magic upon them.

I just can't get past this character flaw, and it's fourth time she's done this (counting her village as just 1, and not counting when her bottled up anger got lose). She should have at least asked them. Celestia at least likes creativity, given how she works to lighten up the Grand Galoping Gala (and it wouldn't be a stretch to think Luna does too). I think they would have gone for it if Starlight had suggested it. Then, for once, Starlight gets someone's permission before screwing with them.

I mean, if this were Steven Universe, Starlight would be Jasper, and everyone would be praising her for teaching Lapis about Fusion.

If Starlight was Bruce Willis...

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