S06E25-26: To Where And Back Again

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Re: S06E25-26: To Where And Back Again

Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:06 pm

Reasons this was good:

-Changelings

-Starlight

-Trixie

10/10 would pony again.

But yea great finale, tied with the wedding for best for me, I love that the changelings got redeemed but Chrysalis stays a baddie, I dig their new beetle looks, the message was good, the whole 'pony b-team has to save the day' thing was fun and had some genuinely great moments.

Good shit, want more. Just gimmie a show that's all Trixie and Starlight hanging out in the new Changeling empire
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:08 pm

Baically repeating what I said in the spoiler thread.

Other than some great dialogue between Discord and Trixie, I didn't care for this episode.

I'm sick and tired of seeing Celesita and Luna get worfed just because the writers can't take two minutes and think of way to write them out of an episode without doing the same thing they've done in every single two part finale of this show.

It's become so commonplace they don't even feel the need to explain it. Luna is dragged away by a single drone.


Just once I want a two part finale where Celesita and Luna aren't yet again portrayed as weak and helpless leaders. And that can totally include just not having them in the episode. They could have been on some diplomatic mission this episode, out of contact since Spike was captured. There are plenty of ways to NOT write a character into the episode. You don't have to bring down other characters in order to elevate others.



:twonk: rant over!
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:09 pm

What a great episode this was. In fact, I feel like it even manages to make The Times They Are A Changeling better by association, since Thorax's introduction was so hugely important here. But yeah, I loved the lesson that if all you ever do is take and take and take from others, you'll never be able to find any personal fulfillment or happiness. I hope kids are able to pick up on that.

I hope we see more of the new changelings in the future, with Thorax as their king. If these are their final forms, then to extend the bug analogy, perhaps the form we've known them in is more just a final larval state before pupation into this. With that in mind, would that make Chrysalis the world's oldest emo teenager? :gotcha:
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Postby Rainbow Crash (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:09 pm

That was wonderful :allears:

So many good character interactions with the B team

And then they defeated the Bee team :evil:
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:12 pm

I didn't care for the finale when it aired and I don't care for it now.

Trixie was alright I guess.

That's all. Wayoshi linked the leak thread so no sense just posting it all here and I'm saving my newer thoughts on this episode for my S6 wrap up.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:12 pm

This was super good in every way :allears:
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:13 pm

I loved Chrysalis' entrance where she contorted between the egg sacs. :evil:

I'm not too wild about Thorax's new design, but the rest of the evolved changelings look great.

Definitely a top-tier adventure episode, even though there surprisingly weren't any songs in it.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:17 pm

A very strong finish to a season that's had its ups and downs. I commented earlier in the leak thread, but I really liked that the dialogue was snappy like we expect from this show and haven't seen as much of this season. Usually Discord steals the show in all of his episodes, yet Trixie's performance is unbeatable.

Starlight, in my opinion, needed just a little more attention this season to set her up as a true leader, but this episode did its level best to pay down that character development debt.

I also liked that they let themselves run wild with changelings as a race in a way they didn't in Thorax's episode. So many wonderfully creepy details. Changelings prove they can still be neato villains, and although their new forms are... odd, we do have a hook for a rematch if the writers decide to bring them back.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:17 pm

Rainbow Crash wrote:So many good character interactions with the B team

And then they defeated the Bee team :evil:

:wowzers:

Anyway this ep was perfect and I'm so bucking buzzed right now.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 5:52 pm

I read through the entire spoiler thread (holy moly :notthisshitagain:) and I saw the arguments about how everyone who got kidnapped was apparently done so way too easily. When I saw the episode, I didn't feel like there was too terribly much of a problem with them getting kidnapped off-camera, as I assumed Chrysalis and/or her very best soldiers were the ones responsible for it, with her leaving the relatively unimportant task of collecting love to the careless drones we saw upon Starlight's return to Ponyville. And yeah, Celestia mostly only seems to get used for stories like this, but... eh? It doesn't seem like an especially big problem to me if it means the typical heroes can get out of the way so that Starlight and her pals can take the stage so well.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:13 pm

Another one minor issue I had.

Did the ponies from Starlight's village really have to be totally incapable of making decisions without her?

Fizzbuzz wrote:I read through the entire spoiler thread (holy moly :notthisshitagain:) and I saw the arguments about how everyone who got kidnapped was apparently done so way too easily. When I saw the episode, I didn't feel like there was too terribly much of a problem with them getting kidnapped off-camera, as I assumed Chrysalis and/or her very best soldiers were the ones responsible for it, with her leaving the relatively unimportant task of collecting love to the careless drones we saw upon Starlight's return to Ponyville. And yeah, Celestia mostly only seems to get used for stories like this, but... eh? It doesn't seem like an especially big problem to me if it means the typical heroes can get out of the way so that Starlight and her pals can take the stage so well.



Celestia was defeated by Chrysalis. Chrysalis at the time was so overcharged with love power that even she was shocked that she won.

Luna was dragged away by a single drone. From the deamscape only she can enter.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:14 pm

That was a great season finale! I'm soo glad I went in unspoiled. :3:
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:20 pm

The Doctor wrote:Another one minor issue I had.

Did the ponies from Starlight's village really have to be totally incapable of making decisions without her?




Celestia was defeated by Chrysalis. Chrysalis at the time was so overcharged with love power that even she was shocked that she won.

Luna was dragged away by a single drone. From the deamscape only she can enter.


they weren't incapable, they were clearly doing just fine planning the festival without her, they just wanted to include her by asking her a few things like 'hey what looks better' and 'wanna judge the baking contest'. It's not like they were sitting around in the dirt unable to do anything without her.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 6:51 pm

As I saw it, they likely thought she'd be psyched about getting to lead something, or at least getting to do something magical, since she was asked if she wanted to join in on the fireworks display.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:22 pm

I'm unspoiled outside of the previews. Assemble a team of ponies with attitudes! :pcstare:


Part I: The Horse Awakens

• One day Spike will grow up into a larger and more useful slave.
• Say what you will about Muffins, she threaded that little window at top speed.
• The Annual Sunset Festival? Sunsets are not annual, pony show! I shouldn't have to explain these sorts of things to you. :snooty:
• The town never did redecorate the equals layout. I guess it is pretty efficient!
:haw: HA HA HA HA
• Aw, Luna's loosened up nicely.
• It'd be interesting if Starlight became Luna's pupil. Sorry Twi, but you kind of suck at teaching sometimes.
• She was pretty awful.
• Pinkie knows what it's like to decline a party invitation! She did it three episodes ago! :snooty:
• Oh gosh, Twilight's blink. :excite:
:smug: :-/
• DO NOT BREAK THE GRRREAT AND POWERFUL PROMISE
• A week-long annual sunset festival? Seriously, am I the only one here who knows the first thing about sunsets? :snooty:
• RULE US STARLIGHT
• This has been so innocuous so far, it can only end with Starlight in Pony Hell.
• Ohhhhh boy, here we go, Pinkie's a bug now.
• AJ and Rarity getting along?! It's more surreal than I guessed! :aghast:
• Ha, the doppelgänger Mane Six are great.
• Ooh, Fake Twi has good lying skills.
• "my sister and ME." :snooty:
• Cool nightmare sequence.
• But are changelings really the oldest threat?
• It would be great if Twilight wasn't changelinged and she's just a jerk.
• Whoa, Chrysalis didn't replace the princesses personally? Wonder how her minions managed it.
• Nigh-invisibility is cool!
• Kevin has pretty princess wings now.
• Yay Discord! :excellent:
• Oh motherfucker, pissed-off Discord. :ohgawd:
• And the Cutie Mark Crusaders are just sleeping through this whole thing, I bet.
• Thanks Discord for bypassing the travel montage!
• Credits: Diouble [sic] Diamond :snooty:
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:23 pm

I enjoyed the finale a lot.
It bugs me that the Changelings got the reformed villain treatment and become good.
Chrysalis escaped and is still evil and can create a new hive but it won't be the same.
A fight between good Changelings and bad Changelings might be interesting but I really hoped for a season-encompassing Changeling infiltration and takeover.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:48 pm

Mechanical Ape wrote::haw: HA HA HA HA

It was subtle, but Party Favor spacing out while laughing again was a nice touch.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:03 pm

Part II: Hugs Not Bugs

• It's round 2, where the scores can really change!
• Wish we'd got a changelinged version of the opening credits. :evil:
• Starlight grabs Discord's hand with magic! I bet nobody's ever done that to him, but it's totally in character for Starlight of course.
• Go back to Season 2 and tell me we'd one day have a scene where Trixie and Discord throw shade at each other.
• The changeling hive changes! I probably shoulda seen that coming. :v:
• Was expecting a larger team, with at least Sunburst, but I'm pleased with the dynamics of this group.
• Cool, the doors open and close like beetle wings!
• We saw the mic earlier in Trixie's pack.
• "Changelettes" needs to be canon.
• "It is absolutely ridiculous that that worked."
• This is Discord Hell. :dreamworks:
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• These guys have to go through some shit in their first big adventure. The Mane Six had to, what, shave a sea serpent and not join a flying troupe?
• Gotta agree, Starlight's pretty fucked. But that's what makes this a good adventure story! I don't know what's going to happen!
• Does Chrysalis have a new voice? Has it always been Kathleen Barr?
• Surprise surprise, it's Kevin in disguise! :excite:
• "Because I'm evil, dumbass!"
• Ugh. Sorry, good changelings, but you look like a bunch of dorks.
• "Bug Queen out! PEACE!" :evil:

I liked this one a bunch. :good:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:15 pm

That was pretty fun. Great to finally get a two-parter with other characters saving the day.

Also, anyone notice that there was no song sequence all throughout? I think this is the first season finale to not have any songs.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:28 pm

Too bad the Changelings didn't give us a rendition of "Flight Of The Bumblebee". Image
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:31 pm

Repeating from the previous thread that I did more or less like the bright colors and filled in holes for our new Seelie Court bugs.

Also, Thorax is a Stag Beetle.

I suppose since they are still Changlings they could still look however they well please.

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:44 pm

Mechanical Ape wrote:• Does Chrysalis have a new voice? Has it always been Kathleen Barr?

It has! But in her first appearance, they gave her a reverby voice filter, which they've left off in her later appearances.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 8:58 pm

I watched it a while back and it kicked ass. Can't think of anything else to add really.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:50 pm

I really enjoyed this one, and I wasn't at all hyped for it based on the synopsis. I really liked the interactions within the off-brand Mane 4, and I think each member was used well within the story. Chrysalis was used sparingly but effectively too.

Great animation and design as usual (I really liked the constantly changing Changeling fortress) and the voice cast all did great work. Definitely a strong finish for the season, which is especially impressive considering the risk it takes by putting the entire regular cast out of action.

The Doctor wrote:Another one minor issue I had.

Did the ponies from Starlight's village really have to be totally incapable of making decisions without her?


I actually thought that was kind of a darkly cheeky touch. Like the townsfolk were so quick to forgive her that they don't even notice themselves sidling back into the subordinate ways that allowed them to be stuck with Starlight in the first place.

The Doctor wrote:Luna was dragged away by a single drone. From the dreamscape only she can enter.


You keep repeating this, but isn't it an incredibly simplistic and literal way to interpret something that happens in a dream? Like, how do you manage the fact that she appeared by sticking her head through the moon? Are we viewing that literally too?
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:53 pm

I don't really mind Celestia and Luna getting captured easily off-screen because it fits in nicely with my head canon of the history of Equestria. Celestia and Luna aren't omnipotent gods in my opinion, but they are super above average unicorns. I imagine them like a Batman and Captain America team. They have been guarding Equestria for thousands of years. If you want to invade Equestria you have to take into account that one third of the population has magical telekinesis powers and the Princesses are essentially orbital laser cannons. The Princess more or less rely on steer brute magical powers. But how many villains did we face so far that were defeated through a display of pure force? None, really. Why? Because for over a thousand years that is how they successfully defended the realm and if you want to take over the realm the first step you have to take into consideration is a way to disable their bulk defense.

In my head, in the princess's career they already did over 600 two parters and every villain that shows up now has to have a way to counter them at the start if they hope for any kind of real success.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:19 am

PaulloDEC wrote:


You keep repeating this, but isn't it an incredibly simplistic and literal way to interpret something that happens in a dream? Like, how do you manage the fact that she appeared by sticking her head through the moon? Are we viewing that literally too?


:pinkieshrug: Soon as the writers think of a way to do a two part finale and not show Celestia and Luna as useless, helpless leaders I'll stop complaining. If they want to continue to use the same old trope again and again and again, that's there choice. Thankfully there's 20 something other episodes in the season besides this one.

And if the show wants to show Luna being dragged away by one drone, it's not my job to think why that wasn't supposed to be Luna being dragged off by one drone.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:28 am

The Doctor wrote:
:pinkieshrug: Soon as the writers think of a way to do a two part finale and not show Celestia and Luna as useless, helpless leaders I'll stop complaining. If they want to continue to use the same old trope again and again and again, that's there choice. Thankfully there's 20 something other episodes in the season besides this one.

And if the show wants to have them just get captured by a few drones, it's not my job to think of ways to make that work if the writers can't be bothered with it.


Most of that didn't seem to be responding to what I was asking, but uh... okay?

I just think it's odd that you'd turn Luna's brief appearance in a dream into definitive proof that she was captured by a single drone.

Also if you wanna get technical, someone is clearly still pulling on Luna's legs when that "one" Changeling jumps into shot. So it's a minimum of two Changelings imo.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:33 am

PaulloDEC wrote:I just think it's odd that you'd turn Luna's brief appearance in a dream into definitive proof that she was captured by a single drone.


If you want to get technical and say there were probably two then fine, that doesn't make the situation any better in my view. In the end, I'm going with what they put on the screen.
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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:45 am

Great stuff! Trixie was the best part by far. I'll agree that Celestia/Luna getting kidnapped is pretty old hat, but I've stopped caring.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:47 am

I assumed by the time that scene happened she probably was already cocooned and those drones were just a visual representation of her getting overcome :pinkieshrug: I can totally see why you'll just say I'm making that up and the show didn't show that, but it's what I thought. It is a dream.

Regardless, as I said in the spoiler thread at the end of the day it's a cartoon for kids. They just wanted a way to get the entire mane cast out of the equation.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:00 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:I assumed by the time that scene happened she probably was already cocooned and those drones were just a visual representation of her getting overcome :pinkieshrug: I can totally see why you'll just say I'm making that up and the show didn't show that, but it's what I thought. It is a dream.

That was my interpretation of it as well. I think that everyone would understand how dumb it would be if Luna literally got beaten by a single changeling drone.

Speaking of her, I liked Luna's brief chat with Starlight during the first dream.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:06 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:I assumed by the time that scene happened she probably was already cocooned and those drones were just a visual representation of her getting overcome :pinkieshrug: I can totally see why you'll just say I'm making that up and the show didn't show that, but it's what I thought. It is a dream.


I think this has come up before, but I tend to take that view too. Like, if we assume that what we're seeing is literal, presumably this is taking place somewhere else in Canterlot:

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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:18 am

:-/ So how many drones do we want to imagine dragged Celestia and Luna away during this attack of theirs that didn't raise the alarm anywhere but with Thorax and Sunburst?

Mane 6 went through a few hundred. So we going to call it a good "stealthy squad" of a thousand or so to take down two Alicorns with power over the heavens?

I get you guys want to explain this, but for me it's just showing what low regard the current writing team regards these two. They're not characters. They're props. There to deliver exposition and build tension by being captured. And this episode shows me that they don't even feel the need to come up with a proper explanation for their capture anymore.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:23 am

I assumed that everything happening in the dream was symbolic, and that this was a representation of Luna trying to communicate despite being cocooned in the real world.

Regardless, since Chrysalis said she got word that the God-princesses had been captured, she apparently didn't do it herself and somehow her drones managed it, without anypony noticing ... yeah, we're not really meant to focus on the details of the scheme, it just sorta happens and then the story is what to do about it.

I'm sure the fans will come up with their own theories and fiction about how everypony got captured, just as I'm sure there'll be art of what Chrysalis' good form might look like.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:30 am

Personally, I can't get riled up about that because -- for good or ill -- accounting for every powerful being in Equestria isn't the focus of the story. It's fine to see that as a black mark against the writing, but it takes up about one minute of the episode, and they're going to find some way to focus on the episode's main characters regardless. And especially arguing about precisely how many changelings it would take to get the jump on an unsuspecting pony seems... counterproductive.

That might ruin the episode for some people, and they're not wrong to feel that way. But at some point, I think one has to step back and ask oneself whether there are any other factors worth judging the show on beside their consistent habit of pushing the powerful characters aside in the big, dangerous season bookends.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:33 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:Personally, I can't get riled up about that because -- for good or ill -- accounting for every powerful being in Equestria isn't the focus of the story. It's fine to see that as a black mark against the writing, but it takes up about one minute of the episode, and they're going to find some way to focus on the episode's main characters regardless. And especially arguing about precisely how many changelings it would take to get the jump on an unsuspecting pony seems... counterproductive.

That might ruin the episode for some people, and they're not wrong to feel that way. But at some point, I think one has to step back and ask oneself whether there are any other factors worth judging the show on beside their consistent habit of pushing the powerful characters aside in the big, dangerous season bookends.


Given that they do the game thing every finale, I think it is fair game. There are plenty of other ways to write characters out of a story.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:34 am

The Doctor wrote::-/ So how many drones do we want to imagine dragged Celestia and Luna away during this attack of theirs that didn't raise the alarm anywhere but with Thorax and Sunburst?

Mane 6 went through a few hundred. So we going to call it a good "stealthy squad" of a thousand or so to take down two Alicorns with power over the heavens?


I've said it before, but I think the point is that in a traditional "power levels" fight you're absolutely right; it'd take an absurd number of Changeling drones to match Celestia or Luna's power. That suggests to me that their method of capture wasn't a brute-force deal. We see in the second half that Changelings can use some kind of goop to stick Starlight to the floor; I could see a surprise/stealth attack utilising that ability being a successful method.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:15 am

We've had this argument a lot, but the whole point is Celestia and Luna aren't the main characters, so they don't get to solve the problem because then we wouldn't have a show.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:19 am

Aramek wrote:We've had this argument a lot, but the whole point is Celestia and Luna aren't the main characters, so they don't get to solve the problem because then we wouldn't have a show.


And as I've said before, they don't need to be in the episode. There are other ways to not write a character into the story. JK Rowling didn't have random Death Eater #8 kidnap Dumbledore at the end of every book in order to keep him out of the way.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:21 am

How many changelings would it take to take down a Alicorn? Let me add up the math real quick... carry the three... Aha! After doing extensive calculations, the correct answer is approximately... just one.
:v:

Not that hard if you avoid the brute force method. Just have one changeling take the place of a lowly maid. Have that maid slip sleeping potion/pills in her tea before bed. Boom! One changeling took down a Alicorn. Just have said changeling take the place of Celestia and he could move her out of the castle without any suspicion.

:notgonnadoit: "What's in that princess-sized box?"

:dwi: "Official friendship business. Nothing to see here. Move along."

It's honestly a rather mote and trivial question to ask. The main cast was suppose to be removed from the equation for the B-team to get a chance to be heroes. The more time they gave to explaining that part the more they would have rushed the ending. I doesn't matter to the story if they were captured (again), preoccupied battling off a changeling invasion, held up in a in a foreign trade negotiation or just stuck in traffic. The story wasn't about them, it was about Trixie and the meager effort her friends did. There might be an episode in the future where the princesses have to save the day. Then you can complain why the main six was removed from that story as well. It would be like complaining that Applejack has to many apple related problems to deal with and they need something new for her to do. Applejack can never have enough apple related problems.
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