S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

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Re: S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

Postby Angel Beat (?) » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:54 pm

Chaos Sonic wrote: clearing butts

Seems legit. :-P
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Postby Mordja (?) » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:40 pm

A pretty standard Polsky episode in most ways, but for Sweetie Belle's amazing performance. I'd completely forgotten about the rant in her room but holy lol is it good. :lol:
-The dream sequence is neat.
-Those 5 year olds are the worst and one of them has Egoraptor's haircut. :-I
-I hadn't noticed Luna's prancing animation before, it's kinda funny looking.
-So Luna showing SB all this stuff nopony was around for...are the god-queens omniscient after all? :starity:
-"Wherever did you come up with the idea for a dolphin?" I wondered the same thing, Rarity.
A few quibbles aside, this episode actually stood up a lot better than I expected it too. Cool beans.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:41 pm

Mordja wrote:-"Wherever did you come up with the idea for a dolphin?" I wondered the same thing, Rarity.


She saw dolphins while she was dream hopping around with Luna.
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Postby Mordja (?) » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:16 pm

Tailspin wrote:
She saw dolphins while she was dream hopping around with Luna.

My query was directed to the writers. :I
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:25 pm

They just needed a goofy thing for someone famous to believe in. For Sapphire Shores, it was dolphins. It kind of makes sense when you consider her ocean-related name, but these sorts of things generally don't make any sense IRL, so eh.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Thu Jun 26, 2014 4:37 pm

Mordja wrote:My query was directed to the writers. :I


I thought you missed them like I did. I only realized they we're in the dream when people pointed them out to me. :v:
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Postby VoidChicken (?) » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:48 pm

The way I see it, Sapphire Shores is superstitious. She reconsidered a (probably very expensive) show based on what she saw as bad luck, and just seeing a dolphin was enough to make her love the design as a sign of good luck.

It's a neat character trait we haven't seen in the show before.
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Postby diribigal (?) » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:40 am

This was an pretty good episode that did a good characterization of a kid's warped view. I could see how that might get on people's nerves, though.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:36 pm

Since this got brought up...
SlateSlabrock wrote:This is probably a conversation better suited to that episode, but while "Toils" did write in a justification for Sweetie Belle's actions, it's justification ex post facto, since she's spent the whole series wanting to be exactly like, and right next to, her big sister, and then suddenly she's on a jealous rampage.

Did this really feel so strange? Like you said, Sweetie Belle's always wanted to be like Rarity, but I always saw that as an expression of her wanting to be popular in the same way that Rarity is popular, not so much as an expression of devotional love (for that, look at Spike in S1-2 :v:). It's not like we haven't seen them fighting before; look at Ponyville Confidential, for example, in which the younger marshmallow snapped at the elder marshmallow just because she'd been reading that copy of the Foal Free Press. We can also look to Twilight Time, an episode where the conflict happened entirely because of Sweetie Belle's harebrained scheme to get attention for herself and the other two Crusaders, thereby proving her growing desire for popularity. Considering all that, Sweetie Belle flipping out over an apparent slight by her sister like she did in this episode feels pretty justified (at least, justified by the standards of a pre-teen kid) to me. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:03 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Did this really feel so strange?

Not really, but your point in the other thread was that friends nibbling on cake was absolutely not justified by the story, while Sweetie Belle's inferiority complex here is well-established. I think they're both the same -- actions chosen to make the episode work, and in this case, given a quick flashback to try to explain it retroactively.

Like you said, Sweetie Belle's always wanted to be like Rarity, but I always saw that as an expression of her wanting to be popular in the same way that Rarity is popular, not so much as an expression of devotional love (for that, look at Spike in S1-2 :v:). It's not like we haven't seen them fighting before; look at Ponyville Confidential, for example, in which the younger marshmallow snapped at the elder marshmallow just because she'd been reading that copy of the Foal Free Press. We can also look to Twilight Time, an episode where the conflict happened entirely because of Sweetie Belle's harebrained scheme to get attention for herself and the other two Crusaders, thereby proving her growing desire for popularity. Considering all that, Sweetie Belle flipping out over an apparent slight by her sister like she did in this episode feels pretty justified (at least, justified by the standards of a pre-teen kid) to me. :pinkieshrug:

Sweetie Belle has always wanted to be close to her sister in the show. She wants to help her sister around the house, or go camping together, or sew clothes just like her.

That's how she behaves in the flashback to when she was very young: She wants to dress up and be pretty, the way she sees Rarity being. It backfires, and apparently she is traumatized for life over it.

If that really had such a dramatic effect on her at such a young age, wouldn't she have behaved differently throughout the show? Trying to distance herself from her older sister and pick up hobbies that aren't Rarity's? I think serious resentment like that would go beyond just not wanting your sister snooping through your stuff.

I think the more reasonable answer is that Sweetie is a teenager now, so when she's moody, she goes looking for someone (Rarity) or some perceived slight (almost a decade ago) to blame.

That's not to say that I think this is a bad episode. However, I think it's a change to her character that they invented out of whole cloth here and worked it into the story as best they could.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Nov 29, 2014 2:48 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:I think the more reasonable answer is that Sweetie is a teenager now, so when she's moody, she goes looking for someone (Rarity) or some perceived slight (almost a decade ago) to blame.

That's not to say that I think this is a bad episode. However, I think it's a change to her character that they invented out of whole cloth here and worked it into the story as best they could.

This is what I was thinking as well, but I don't see it as being quite so abrupt. We've seen it coming for a couple of years now, largely in how stories with the CMC have shifted from them them (in typical childish single-mindedness) always trying to get their cutie marks to them dealing with far more personal and social issues that people start having to face while they're growing up. And if that's not enough, Twilight Time showed us that Sweetie Belle is physically mature enough to do magic now, an obvious sign of having grown up somewhat. As such, her increasingly self-centered behavior felt pretty natural to me here.
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Postby Illuminations (?) » Sun Nov 30, 2014 4:52 pm

It's going to become weird, strange and/or awkward to hear Sweetie Belle, or heck any of the CMC, with their maturing voices if there is no physical growth accompanying said change.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Fri Mar 06, 2015 1:08 am

Welcome to Week Forty-Three of Let's Re-Watch, where a random episode from the pony pantheon is chosen to be the episode of the week!

The basics :
1. Threads will go up on Thursdays! Re-watch day is Saturday. You can obviously join in sooner or later, but the first two days are more for reminiscing, while Saturday-Wednesday is for fresh eyes!
2. Each week is a random episode. All episodes are now fair game, except repeats!
3. This is fun, and totally random - I literally roll the episode moments before making the thread. Two-parters are combined so technically have a double chance of being chosen but hey! More fun!
5. :dwi:

In this episode, Sweetie Belle sabotages a concert to get close to her favorite singer.

Week Forty-Three is

For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils!
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For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils is the nineteenth episode of the fourth season of My Little Pony Friendship is Magic and the eighty-fourth episode overall. When the dresses Rarity makes for Sweetie Belle's play get more attention than the play itself, Sweetie Belle ruins the dress Rarity made for Sapphire Shores in bitter retaliation.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Mar 06, 2015 2:04 am

:3: more Sweetie Belle and Rarity fun.

This was a pretty good episode. The stuff with Rairty and Sweetie Belle was fantastic. Rarity giving her all to try and help her, and Sweetie Belle screwing it all up. It was a great way to put these two at odds without retreading "Sisterhooves Social". In that episode it was pretty much all Rarity's fault and this time they do the opposite. Luna again provides a good lesson for the CMC and showcaswes her dreamwalking ability in an appropriate manner. I did also like her comparison to Celestia and her's relationship.

As for negatives. Tabitha sounded a little bored reading her Luna lines. I had a similar issue with "Sleepless in Ponyville", though it feels more pronounced here. Sleepless at least had her showing sympathy and warmth to Scootaloo. I'm sure she was given direction to be stoic, but since she's dealing with kids, I think a little levity would be appropriate. After "Luna Eclipsed" it kind of feels like she's forgotten to...

:dwi: lighten up.
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Sat Mar 07, 2015 5:01 am

All I really have to say is "Luna rocked that one". Even with all the Rarity/Sweetie Belle action going on in this episode, Luna remains the standout.

Now, we just need Luna to enter Applebloom's dreams, and we'll be all set.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:27 am

Marioland1 wrote:Now, we just need Luna to enter Applebloom's dreams, and we'll be all set.


:sweet: Why hi there, Princess Luna. Are you here to teach me a valuable life lesson?

:speakest: Go apologize to Twist you little jerk.

:annoyed: ...
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:38 am

This was a pretty weird one for me. I remember on my original viewing thinking how odd it was to have so much unusual stuff appear at once; Sweetie Belle putting on her own local theatre production, the entire "Christmas Carol" dream sequence, character flashbacks, bleak futures, new locations, etc. After another watch I still think it's a highly unusual episode, but I also enjoyed it a lot more this time. Claire Corlett puts in a great performance, showing plenty of skill for both the crazy OTT stuff (the red ribbon scene cracks me up) and the quieter moments.

I think Luna's involvement is the weak link, unfortunately. While her presence is appropriate given the parallels between her and Sweetie Belle, she acts more as a plot device here than a character. I wouldn't say it has a negative effect on the episode, but I'd love to see her get a few more proper episodes ala Luna Eclipsed sometime.

Interesting to see Luna using either the same, or a very similar astral realm to the one Celestia uses at the end of Magical Mystery Cure, too.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Mar 08, 2015 3:38 am

Luna made this episode for me. Who can forget that authoritative scene changing hoof stomp. :speakest:
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:50 am

The Doctor wrote:
:sweet: Why hi there, Princess Luna. Are you here to teach me a valuable life lesson?

:speakest: Go apologize to Twist you little jerk.

:annoyed: ...


Twist is THE WORST, Apple Bloom was right to ditch her :ohboy:
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:44 am

Dexanth wrote:Twist is THE WORST, Apple Bloom was right to ditch her :ohboy:

I was gonna make a joke here, until I realized that it would be pretty offensive to anybody that actually likes Twist.

Ah, who am I kidding?
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:16 am

Twist has fans? :wowzers:
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:47 am

e: no good :facehoof:
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Postby Marioland1 (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:41 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Twist has fans? :wowzers:

That's the joke.
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Postby Applepie (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:38 pm

This episode ranks in my top 5 of S4. Good to see more Luna entering dreams, filly flashbacks and on.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:48 pm

Absolutely a glorious episode, easily in my top three for the season.

Rarity is pitch perfect and a joy throughout—her little personal pep talk fretting over her work is especially endearing.

Sweetie Belle gets further development, and it is refreshing to see actual wickedness in these fillies (though SB certainly has demonstrated scheming qualities in other episodes). Sweetie Belle going contentedly to sleep after an ill deed well done is a strong scene.

I met Dave Polsky at B.U.C.K. in Manchester last year, and complimented him on For Whom the Sweetie Belle and Rarity takes Manehattan (both wonderful episodes, and he writes Rarity really well). When the episode aired, I posited the theory here that it was no accident that Sweetie Belle, being well aware that her own sister had attained her cutie mark creating costumes for a school play, decided to n-up her by writing, designing, staging, and performing in a (proper) theater play. I asked Polsky whether this had been his intention, which it had not, though I was welcome to add my own layer of interpretation to the characters' motivations. (Head-canon... Not Exactly Shut Down! :wingsright: ).

As for Princess Luna's role, I also met Tabitha St. Germain last year (it was a pretty sweet year in that regard) at the Crystal Fair in Helsinki. During the sponsors' meeting with her, she stated that while she has an excellent grip on Rarity's character (no doubt about that…), she is less sure about Princess Luna as she does not feel she is written consistently by the writers. (I must admit to being a bit partial to Serious Luna rather than the more playful, though admittedly fun, IDW variant).

Princess Luna's powers are remarkable in this episode. Not only does she inhabit Sweetie Belle's dream and memories, she apparently accesses Rarity's memory of the birthday party and integrates it into Sweetie Belle's dream. Furthermore, she would seem to, in the waking world no less, know where her little ponies are (or at least one specific filly).

So were the Dark Future actual, or part of a Scare Fillies Straight policy? I would tend towards the latter, if only because it seems unlikely that a performer would actually spend time in concert complaining about a former contractor.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:06 pm

Niels Olof wrote:
As for Princess Luna's role, I also met Tabitha St. Germain last year (it was a pretty sweet year in that regard) at the Crystal Fair in Helsinki. During the sponsors' meeting with her, she stated that while she has an excellent grip on Rarity's character (no doubt about that…), she is less sure about Princess Luna as she does not feel she is written consistently by the writers. (I must admit to being a bit partial to Serious Luna rather than the more playful, though admittedly fun, IDW variant).

Princess Luna's powers are remarkable in this episode. Not only does she inhabit Sweetie Belle's dream and memories, she apparently accesses Rarity's memory of the birthday party and integrates it into Sweetie Belle's dream. Furthermore, she would seem to, in the waking world no less, know where her little ponies are (or at least one specific filly).


Thanks for the insight from Tabitha. That would make a lot of sense I think, and I certainly agree with her about the inconsistency in writing.

I think as silly as Luna can be in the comics, she's usually pretty serious when it comes to work. Exception being her Micro, where she didn't take the work Celestia has to do seriously. And I guess her being more serious with Sweetie Belle than with Scootaloo might also be chalked up her trying to help Scootaloo overcome her fears vs trying to tell Sweetie Belle in the nicest way possible..

:speakest: Stop being a little shit and look at all your Sister does for you.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:56 pm

One can hope that if we get more Princess Luna in Season 5 (starting April/4!), her character will be more firmly fleshed out.

(The new season looks very promising, but I would love, love, love an episode about two sisters getting some princessing done).
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 1:56 am

Horsie dresses episode :allears:

Before I say anything substantive: it may just be me hearing things due to listening on the train, but when Luna first shows up during the awards ceremony dream, the music that accompanies her sounds an awful lot like that "Children of the Night" song. :wat:

That out of the way: this episode is really something else. It keeps reaching out into areas well out of the show's usual comfort zone, and tells a story that does something that only happens once or twice a season: it hints at a much bigger and more mysterious world out there that we just haven't quite glimpsed yet. The big Twilight-centric two-parters may tell big epic stories and stuff, but they answer the questions that they raise, by and large. This one, though...

Rarity gets painted as an innocent, well-meaning soul here, and she may well be—but subconsciously, I don't have any trouble at all believing that she did go overboard on the dresses out of an unacknowledged, but no less real, desire to assert her dominance as the real creative powerhouse of the family. She may simply not be able to help it. I know people exactly like that. They might be horrified to think of themselves like that, and they would react with shock and denial... but it's true nonetheless. Rarity is exactly the kind of person who just can't not be in competition. Not that Sweetie Belle makes it too hard for her to fall into that trap, of course. She's very much cut from the same cloth in many ways. The fact that the setup hinges on Sweetie Belle having held back from telling Rarity about the show until the very last minute not out of simple childlike dumbness, but because she was afraid to relinquish creative control when she knew she had a sister who tends to impose her creative will on things is just the best thing.

And really, the fact that that is the crux of the episode's story, jealousy and one-upmanship, is pretty remarkable—it's a fairly complex thing for a kids' show to get didactic about. This is such a far cry from the "two's company, three's a crowd" style moral lessons that the show started out with that it kind of stops you short. Not only that, the way it weaves in two long-running, seldom-touched-upon minor story threads going right back to Season one (namely Sapphire Shores' relationship with Rarity, and Princess Luna's relationship with her sister) as the basis for the lesson puts some pretty decent demands on the audience's attention and sense of involvement. This is the writers going a little bit overboard with the immersion into their own universe, and while the show could easily collapse under its own weight if it did too much of that (that's ATLA/Korra territory), a little bit of it here and there is bracing and fun.

One thing I noticed is the sound, which spends a lot of time zooming all around your head as the camera angle changes—focusing on one particular ear when a character is off-screen, for instance. And in one shot in the boutique where the camera shoots down from above, as though it's fixed up in the rafters, the recording takes on a more cavernous, echoey tone just for that one shot, which is a fascinating little detail.

And as to the animation, one little thing that I truly loved was the way Luna is shown cantering ethereally through the stars. What a lovely, graceful gait they set it to themselves to animate. And Sweetie Belle scrambling to keep up with her, alternately running gracelessly in the air and coming to a sudden stop and then running again, is the perfect weird little counterpoint, with her silent acceptance of her situation lending to the hallucinatory otherworldliness of the sequence.

I can't get over Rarity as Mufasa in the clouds and the fact that she literally said "MUHAHAHA". :yay: And the squeal of offended Rarity pain as Luna banishes her, oh my god :gotcha:


E: Also the little glimpse we get of crazy ruined future Rarity is one of the most legit horrifying things the show has ever done. More so than the boarded-up boutique of MMC or the blasted library. That was hardly cartoony pretend-bad, that was freakish nightmare material. The whole show is founded so firmly on us knowing these characters so well as people, and being with them on their journeys through life, that seeing them utterly destroyed like that is almost worse than if they died.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:27 pm

Marioland1 wrote:Now, we just need Luna to enter Applebloom's dreams, and we'll be all set.

:speakest: "But child, I have already sent you a dream. Do you not remember your Cutie Pox?"
:sweet: "That actually happened, though!"
:speakest: "What about that day could possibly have convinced you it actually happened?"
:unenthused: "Was it the potion that regrows teeth? Or you finding a lion in downtown Ponyville at 2 in the afternoon? How about the flower that only works when you tell the truth? Those were metaphors, Apple Bloom."
:unenthused: "I know Equestria is full of weird shit, but Jesus Christ."

:flail: "No, that can't be! I ain't crazy! I gotta go talk to Zecora!"

:amazed: :ngh:

:amazed: :ngh: "Who the hell is Zecora?"
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:31 pm

:speakest: Applebloom, what have you learned from what I showed you tonight?

:sweet: Ah didn't learn anything! I was dreamin' all along!

:unenthused:
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 5:58 pm

Yeah, I'm hoping that we'll see that in Season 5 to make that storyline a hat trick. I'm sure there's a lot they can do with it.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:32 pm

Holy shit, I only just now looked at the board games in the OP :lol:


BATTLE WAR :black101:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:44 pm

Ha, some of the names on them are clever.

:amazing: GARBAGE DAY
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:52 pm

Mystery Cat?

(yes, it has a ?)
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 7:59 pm

Dear Secret Celestia, please send a copy of Who Stole My Martini. :memories:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:12 pm

12 Hour Algebra Adventure sounds awesome. :v:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:49 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:12 Hour Algebra Adventure sounds awesome. :v:

72. :excite:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 8:56 pm

"Sharp Corners" is the expansion pack for "Will It Fit In My Nose."

It was Rainbow Dash's favorite game as a child.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 9:07 pm

Strate-Goat looks interesting. Do you play as the goats or is it a goat only game?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Mar 10, 2015 11:58 pm

:unenthused: Sweetie Belle, you must now apologize for your error in judgement.

Image I'm sorry...

:speakest: It is not I you must apologize to...it is your sister.

:amazed: Okay...I'll apologize to Rarity.

:unenthused: Well, you should probably apologize to me too. I was watching a really good movie when I had to go and enter your dream.
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
PonyHag714
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Trick or treat, smell my feet
Joined: Mar 18, 2013
Location: Oromareocto, Canterda
Gender: Male

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