S07E14: Fame and Misfortune

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Re: S07E14: Fame and Misfortune

Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:45 pm

The ponies of Equestria are a lot like Bronies. Missing the point entirely. Which is what makes it funny to watch.

Then it gets more amusing as they take the piss out of fandoms in general. Plus how people act irl about everything.

Basically the world is a fuck, people are idiots and self absorbed, and when something good comes along that might make the world a teeny bit better people ignore the message and ruin it all.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:30 am

First Twilight reads the books, then she makes the books, and soon, she'll be the books.
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Postby pony person thing (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:39 am

Aramek wrote:Gonna be good. I hope Starlight saves the day.


That's the LAST thing this show needs right now. She's done it too much as it is. This should be the Mane 6's issue.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:54 am

Holy shit that was a blast.

I laughed out so many times, it was hilariously meta and it honestly didn't really seem mean to me. I loved it :-P
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:04 am

pony person thing wrote:
That's the LAST thing this show needs right now. She's done it too much as it is. This should be the Mane 6's issue.

Not sure if you've seen the episode or not, but she was a good background character this episode (for maybe the first time). That was nice to see.

Highbrow Dash wrote:Holy shit that was a blast.

I laughed out so many times, it was hilariously meta and it honestly didn't really seem mean to me. I loved it :-P


I didn't find the meta commentary that mean either, but it certainly had the subtlety of a sledgehammer, which i think some people are conflating with "mean" in this instance. Basically the entire gag is that ponies in-universe are treating real-life memoirs as characters to analyze - they are the fandom. But it's real life for them - all this shit the memoirs detail saved Equestria time and time again, specifically in this book from Tirek. So the fandom ponies are really, really acting like morons here, to the point where it's completely unresolved and the moral is "don't let morons' opinions change who you are", which is a bit awkward no matter how you slice it.

===================

I like that they are still going to MLP's past for some names & designs in the superior G4 style:

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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:09 am

Wayoshi wrote:I didn't find the meta commentary that mean either, but it certainly had the subtlety of a sledgehammer, which made the episode feel a bit absurd.


It may be obvious to us, but I think it works just fine in the context of the episode. I'll take this over episode 100 anytime.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:15 am

I just about lost it at the "Why does Fluttershy keep learning the same lesson over and over?" because that's an extremely common comment/complaint on this site. I honestly appreciated the fandom critique. It'll fly over the head of the target audience, but what they're left with is the "we're not perfect, and that's okay" lesson, which is still a pretty good one.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:20 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:
It may be obvious to us, but I think it works just fine in the context of the episode. I'll take this over episode 100 anytime.

FYI, I edited my post just now to explain my point more.

I do wonder how this episode would have fared if it was ep 100. It certainly acknowledges the fandom more cleverly than ep 100, to your point. Who knows, maybe it WAS the concept for episode 100 before getting shelved...

Ultimately just take the episode lightly, I say. Certainly intended that way. Too many people up in arms trying to fit this episode into their headcanons on the pony universe (lol) or actually getting offended the writers are "mocking" the criticism.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:37 am

Man, this episode was meta as hell :-I

I laughed out loud at "why does Fluttershy keep learning the same lesson over and over again?" :smirk:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:12 am

The only line that really seemed off was "I liked Twilight before she had wings" because she had wings when she began to write her friendship journal which would seem a bit odd that she would write of her wingless experiences in that journal about recent friendship. It also seems weird that it would include her travels from Canterlot as well. Like they were left over lines from when it was planned from much earlier in the show.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:29 am

PONIES: just what are they up to this week, what is their problem this time

• Toola Roola! That's a name I've heard before. :horse:
• Twilight casts her Anti-Ice Cream Shield spell, which is used surprisingly often in ponyland.
• Face it, Twilight, print media is dead. :shock: Starlight is awesome as usual for not understanding why she should even care.
• Ha, of course Fluttershy writes really tiny. Also this explains why the journal is in such crappy condition: it's gone through so many hooves, most of whom don't care for books as much as Twilight.
• "... manifesto."
• :3 I'm awesome.
• Centuries from now, the journal will be half-understood but unquestioned religious dogma.
• What the fuck, Toola Roola, where were you and your many friendship dysfunctions during Lesson Zero. :-/
:iiaia: "Oh darling, the purpose of everything is marketing!"
• Yes, nerd humor.
• Next avatar spotted :cry:
• Pinkie is extra squeaky this week.
• Something's gone really wrong when Dash is sick of boasting!
• And with Fluttershy, the episode disappears in a cloud of meta.
• STRESS SEWING
• This would be the perfect time for Starlight to alter the past again.
• A song?!
• (disclaimer: Rarity is in fact flawless)

Wrappin' it up: While the meta humor was fun for me the first couple of times, near the end it got a bit cringey. I did enjoy it although it's a much meaner episode than we normally get. I do like that the resolution is basically "fuck 'em". In my headcanon epilogue, Celestia shows up and shames the crowd until they go home.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:38 am

Wayoshi wrote:
I like that they are still going to MLP's past for some names & designs in the superior G4 style:

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I only think of one thing when I think Toola Roola...



:fluttersmith: Poor Johnny Ray...
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:18 am

Image "You know Starlight, if you ever want a supporting cast of your own, you could take Toola-Roola and Coconut Cream under your, er, wing. They're no CMCs but they're plenty dumb enough."
:amazed: "I could be insulted by that, but I choose to be flattered."
Image "Ah ha ha ... thanks Twilight, but I'm, er, not really good with kids. Or adults."
Image "Maybe I'll start with a nice, simple pet rock and work my way up!"
:maud: "I already asked all the rocks I know. They say you're a bad influence."
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:39 am

Mechanical Ape wrote:
• (disclaimer: Rarity is in fact flawless)

Quoted for Truth.

Mechanical Ape wrote:In my headcanon epilogue, Celestia shows up and shames the crowd until they go home.

Damn straight. I could go for Celestia's version of S01E07's How DARE you!?. :glare:

It is really striking how replacing Starlight with Spike would change nothing in the episode, except that we for a fact know that Spike is great with kids.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:30 am

Niels Olof wrote:It is really striking how replacing Starlight with Spike would change nothing in the episode, except that we for a fact know that Spike is great with kids.

Well, some kids.

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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:05 am

Well, he handled all the hospital colts and fillies in grand style later in the episode. Toddlers are however tricky.

A crucial point in RD's development towards independence has been uncovered:

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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:02 pm

Image Twilight, have you forgotten what I taught you about crowd control?

Image What do I do?

Image Attention, everypony...if you will all disperse and return home, you each get a supply of Horsetess Cupcakes!

:speakest: Those are my cupcakes!

Image Now, Luna...we must make sacrafices for the good of Equestria.

:unenthused: Then why don't you give them your snacks?

Image I'm a little deaf in that ear. Speak a bit louder next time.
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:21 pm

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"I made it halfway through this thing and the whole Rarity + Spike story arc was just swept under the rug. Whoever wrote this thing can't plot worth a hill of beans!"
:ohrarity: "I'm standing right here, dear. I'm not some fictional character you can just rail against to your heart's content."

Image "Ah-ha.... this is getting too personal. Twilight, do you think it was wise to just publish the friendship diary raw and unedited like that?"

:twiright: "I feel the readers deserve an accurate portrayal of all the ups and downs of our friendship, warts and all. And I think they would appreciate the true unforced uncrafted authenticity of us being our true selves."

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"I need closure on this! Cloooooosure!"
Image ...

Image "You could have just cherry picked the real core lessons of the diary and written a few stories around them and published that."
Image "You could have given it a sappy title; Chicken Soup for the Equestrian's Soul, and sold a series of 'em. You'd have made a mint!"
:-/ "I don't make mints, Spike. I make friendships."
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:49 pm

It could've been worse, Rarity, they might've latched onto the "generosity" bit and hung around the store expecting handouts. :notthisshitagain:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:17 pm

KNow what would be neat?

If IDW got with Larson for a comic version of his script, similar to the way a comic adaptation was done of Frank Miller's original story for Robocop 2.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:31 pm

Real fucking good.

Also Starlight went outside and brain blasted all the ponies the moment the credits started.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Aug 15, 2017 5:11 pm

Well, I watched this episode just now, and I'm really not sure what to think of it. There was a good lesson there, that we should never expect others to be perfect and that we should stick with our friends and loved ones just as they do to us. There were also some funny jokes there, some much needed critique of this fandom (and a few that hit close to home for me :wat:). But the way it was all put together, I'm not sure it worked all that well. If the point was that we should focus on striving for self-improvement instead of busying ourselves with gossip and chatter, then this episode itself needed a reminder of that. If the point was to be funny by having a laugh at overzealous fans, then trying to teach a lesson at the same time feels like the episode exists to shame those people (us) into doing what the lesson says. I think I feel like Larson here, that this episode got dicked with by too many other people who perhaps lost the point of the episode in the process.

I would've liked to see what Spike thought of all this. What Apple Bloom was saying about popularity makes sense since Sweetie Belle got to write in that book about the events of Twilight Time, so if all the other children were able to get the point of the book then it's understandable why those two and Scootaloo might want to use that attention to further help others now. But Spike also wrote in it (Equestria Games), yet he was absent from this episode entirely. Would his lesson on self-confidence been absorbed by the foals reading the book, too? Showing that happening might've been worth cutting another joke or two about us.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:55 pm

There were times, perhaps, it might have had characters go over the top amongst the fanbase.

On the other hand? Everything in that episode is something I've seen at least once and often multiple times. Hell, once or twice I've been to one degree or another several of those fans, so it hits home there.

Thing is, I've seen a lot of entitled fans up close and personal now. I've had to try to help deal with the fallout before when people go way, way too far. So I'm not really sympathetic to the argument it's a jab at the fanbase, because it isn't.

Notice how at the very beginning, Twilight is super, duper psyched that even adults are reading her book. She asks them what their favorite part is - and none of them answer. They always want to use her and her friends for their own selfish purposes.

That's the message at heart here that people getting upset are missing: It's not saying the fans suck. It is trying to remind fans that, you know, maybe if you feel targeted by this you should take a step back and try to remember what this was all about.

It's something I've heard repeated a bunch of times from all kinds of sources - fans, con staff, people who work on the show. Show staffers love that adults are fans of this. They genuinely do.

They do not love when said people then try to make it about them. When they try and twist creators into puppets dancing for their pleasure.

The song - it's about the characters, yes, but it's about the creators and fans as well. Nobody involved is perfect. They screw it up from time to time. Everyone makes mistakes.

I've been that fan before. Heck, I can think of one area I still am to some degree but I endeavor to keep it to myself - those of you who know me well can instantly figure out what it is, I am sure, but at this point I've accepted that it is what it is, and in the end I always go back to what Jim Miller once said: For any given individual, the only canon that truly matters is their own headcanon.

We are all free to take what message and assign whatever meaning we want to it, and nobody can take that away from us. If you feel that something in the show is truly awful? Make up your own internal story for yourself that makes it work for you. Maybe you can't enforce that on other people - but they can't force their own view on you, either. There's room for multiple viewpoints to exist in harmony.

So yea. I find this one honestly another home run. Season 7 has been doing awesome.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:18 am

Dexanth wrote:We are all free to take what message and assign whatever meaning we want to it, and nobody can take that away from us. If you feel that something in the show is truly awful? Make up your own internal story for yourself that makes it work for you. Maybe you can't enforce that on other people - but they can't force their own view on you, either. There's room for multiple viewpoints to exist in harmony..

Well said. there's nothing wrong with doing this, but it's sacrilege for a lot of people
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:48 pm

Much as I'd love to claim credit, Jim Miller gets that. I just expanded on it. I still remember his 'The only canon that matters is headcanon' from a con.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:58 pm

Maybe what bugs me is how this episode was using what is, in-universe, a nonfiction memoir collection/self-help book as an allegory for what is to us a fictional TV show. To use what I thought was this episode's most piercing example, for us to criticize how Fluttershy is written is a commentary on the writers of this show; are they playing the long game with her progression, or are they just dipping into the same character trait again and again when writing stories about her? For ponies to criticize the book for the same reason, though, is incredibly mean. It's a little hard to tell if all the people who tweaked Larson's script are just trying to make a joke, or if they're trying to use the characters as a shield, like they're saying that if you criticize the episodes then you're making the Mane Six feel horrible.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:03 pm

It's not presented as well as it could be, but I am 99.9% sure it's more about 'Don't be a jerkface' than 'Don't have opinions'.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 6:20 pm

https://youtu.be/LJW2OXlVysE DWK in all his creepy alcoholic Channer ways did a good job of summing up the episode. And basically my whole irritation with Bronies in general.

It's a cute fun show with a very good damned life lesson. And most people completely bloody miss it.

It's almost like religion really. And now I need to drink until I can't feel feelings. But I have work and stuff to do so yeah. Plus booze costs money better spent on 30 year old computer games and Warhammer 40k. (Funny money. Real money goes to paying bills.)
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:10 pm

Ranty rant sounds hilarious at 2x speed. :plonk:


I like to think of these episodes having a sliding scale of canonicity, and this one is more on the Uncle Grandpa side of the spectrum.

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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:36 pm

Captain Rufus wrote:https://youtu.be/LJW2OXlVysE DWK in all his creepy alcoholic Channer ways did a good job of summing up the episode.

Oh god dammit the Twilicane was snuck into the journal. :v:
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:58 am

Captain Rufus wrote:https://youtu.be/LJW2OXlVysE DWK in all his creepy alcoholic Channer ways did a good job of summing up the episode. And basically my whole irritation with Bronies in general.

It's a cute fun show with a very good damned life lesson. And most people completely bloody miss it.

It's almost like religion really. And now I need to drink until I can't feel feelings. But I have work and stuff to do so yeah. Plus booze costs money better spent on 30 year old computer games and Warhammer 40k. (Funny money. Real money goes to paying bills.)


Too many people miss it, yes. But plenty of us don't. I mean, hell, I'm perfectly willing to admit FiM has been lifechanging for me, both from the joy I've gotten from it - and sometimes the 'Oh yea, I forgot about that, thanks show!' moments it gives (Because you are never too old to learn!), but also all the people I've met through it who feel the same way to various degrees.

I've made dozens of friends through MLP; I've met people who've inspired me to grow as an individual; I've now had people tell me I've done the same for them.

Yes, there are shitlords on the internet who don't get that. But you know what? That's okay. Their existence doesn't stop it from having meaning for the rest of us. And sometimes - well, sometimes some of them have an epiphany and begin to change for the better. You never know.
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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Wed Aug 23, 2017 12:33 am

Dexanth wrote:
Too many people miss it, yes. But plenty of us don't. I mean, hell, I'm perfectly willing to admit FiM has been lifechanging for me, both from the joy I've gotten from it - and sometimes the 'Oh yea, I forgot about that, thanks show!' moments it gives (Because you are never too old to learn!), but also all the people I've met through it who feel the same way to various degrees.

I've made dozens of friends through MLP; I've met people who've inspired me to grow as an individual; I've now had people tell me I've done the same for them.

Yes, there are shitlords on the internet who don't get that. But you know what? That's okay. Their existence doesn't stop it from having meaning for the rest of us. And sometimes - well, sometimes some of them have an epiphany and begin to change for the better. You never know.


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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:00 pm

Whoof. I guess I should give my reaction as a play-by-play

FRIENDSHIP ENDED WITH TOOLA-ROOLA, NOW SALMAN IS MY BEST FRIEND

"Manifesto"

This episode is about ... marketing?

Hahaha get fucked rarity

BAAHAHA fluttershy

Now this is how you do meta

Who the hell wrote this, is ma Larson using another pen name or something

Jesus christ I can’t even handle this

Song: “the weaknesses in our writing are actually character flaws, and those are fine”

Oh it actually was Larson, that fuckin explains that lmfao


I mean ... all the jabs at the fandom, and all the jokes that springboard off of the creative process and engagement with fandoms in general, those all seemed... totally on point for me? I don't know why Larson is running so hard from this. Unless, well....

Wayoshi wrote:
Image

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Interesting to have the credited writer for the episode come out against said episode's tone and demeanor.


... Can we like paste in the townsponies in place of these tweeting fans and Twilight for Larson or something? Because damn, this is a whole nother level of meta that I don't know how to deal with.

But I agree that I liked this better than Slice of Life. The story seemed more "natural", or more native to the pony world, if you know what I mean—yes it's doing all these fourth-wall-acknowledging jokes, but it's not breaking that wall the way SoL did. It's not shattering all the rules for a one-off joke episode. The "Uncle Grandpa" gag applies a lot more to SoL than to this one, because let's be honest, I can totally see this one happening, without any need for stretching of the boundaries of the world.

Plus it's got a lot of really neato writing complexities, like Starlight staying behind to give the ponies at the cafe what-for, and all of their individual experiences intersecting in believable and escalating ways. Probably why I thought this episode had to have been written by someone from a previous season, or possibly even Larson himself (before I realized it was him). This was a lot of the old-school humor, the kind I'd been missing.

And the song was really good too! Like songs in the show haven't been for years. A new style, a new melodic structure, and good lyrics even. I like it a lot.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:00 pm

Niels Olof wrote:Well, he handled all the hospital colts and fillies in grand style later in the episode. Toddlers are however tricky.

A crucial point in RD's development towards independence has been uncovered:

Image


This line sure was a bit jarring though :-I
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:37 pm

Oh also I feel like the song was a riff on this musically:

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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:23 pm

By the way after the song I completely expected them to say something like "What? They're still arguing out there? But that was one of the best songs we've done in years!"
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:44 pm

:flutterdear: "Should we sing it again?"
:) "Only louder?"
Image "And magically paralyzing their leg muscles so they can't leave?"
:whine: "But we want them to leave!"
:bwuh: "We do? I thought we wanted them to shut up."
Image "Look, you ponies make a decision about which curse you want and then get back to me, okay?"
:twonk: "UGGGGH, I can't believe we're trapped here by a bunch of villagers! It's like we're besieged in some kind of --"
:eyebrow: "Castle?"
:flattered: "... well, yes."
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