S06E17: The Times They Are A Changeling

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Re: S06E17: The Times They Are A Changeling

Postby DerFurShur (?) » Sun Aug 21, 2016 11:36 pm

Bremen wrote:
So yeah, I kinda did like how this episode handled it, that Spike was initially unwilling to stand up to everyone, and had to do some soul searching to find the courage.


It's wasn't exactly soul searching, it was "man I was dick to my friend, I shouldn't have been a dick to my friend" then goes and gets hI'm, brings him back and then tells everyone hey he's my friend he's cool. Twilight's goes "hmm seems legit" and then everyone basically shrugs their shoulders and boom we have a happy ending and for some reason being around doesn't make him hiss anymore either, he'll he doesn't even have to fight it, it's just fixed.

As for Dragon Quest, his choice to stay and fight to make sure the next Dragon Hitler doesn't take over doesn't really happen until Garble declares he'll make the Ponies "pay", and this was the dragon that bullied Spike so he knows he means it. If Spike had just been like "eh I said I was interested and I mean it" after hearing that then I'd considered the biggest jerk this season.
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Postby LardLad3545 (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:03 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:You don't have to like anything, but I'll say that this is the only show for which I've bothered to read fan stories, and, as long as one seeks out quality stories and doesn't go hunting for things one will hate, I've been pleasantly surprised.

I was mainly amused by the idea of me and a guy named Rufus being crotchety with our walkers on his front porch. :smirk:
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Postby Auxiliatrix (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:13 am

I've heard a couple people call this episode as a contender for the best of the season, but I don't really understand it.

I think the pacing was way too fast for me to actually get super attached to the Changeling. I didn't get a chance to truly sympathize with the Changeling too much as he blends into society because of how quick it flew along. Again, the Changeling's backstory is explained at a super fast speed, so when Spike starts to tear up at it, I simply can't believe it. It may be sad, but there's no time for these emotions to sink in.

However, the scene where Spike offends his Changeling friend was sort of powerful, and probably my personal highlight. The Changeling forgiving Spike, though, was once again way too rushed.

Also, did the Changeling's voice bother anyone else? He was a decent voice actor, and I would guess that any voice probably would have been weird coming out of the Changeling, but I felt like his voice was way too expressive and didn't always match up with the body language of the Changeling. That's a nitpick, though!

Sunburst and Starlight have little to no point being here. The random thing about "being able to learn a friendship lesson anywhere" feels very tacked in.

I started laughing at the song in the beginning. The way the light shines on Spike made it come across as self-parody, but then I realized that it was actually supposed to be serious. I was waiting for some sort of joke either during it, or at the end, but the joke never came. That doesn't make the song horrible, per say, but I would have liked to have seen more actual resolution, dialogue, and development in place of it. The song would have been stronger if the episode was stronger.

It's definitely not a bad episode, though! I liked Spike's chemistry with the Changeling, there was that moment of emotion then, a little more lore with the Changelings, an okay song, and the moral is handled well. I just think it had way too many elements, and that made the story as a whole suffer. It was decent, but it could have been so much more.

Better luck next week? :pinkieshrug:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:17 am

I enjoyed the episode, but I wouldn't call it a best of season. I agree with those who think the end felt a bit rushed.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 1:22 am

:no:Then why can't we imagine
:yikes: (just why can't we imagine)
:no:Then why can't we imagine a changeling can chaaaange


:allright: "Spike, your song moved us, and we find ourselves in agreement."
:notgonnadoit: "That was the worst performance we've ever seen."
:twiright: "Agreed. Spike, your song was bad and now you must go into the dungeon."


:whyme:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:36 am

Auxiliatrix wrote:It's definitely not a bad episode, though! I liked Spike's chemistry with the Changeling, there was that moment of emotion then, a little more lore with the Changelings, an okay song, and the moral is handled well. I just think it had way too many elements, and that made the story as a whole suffer. It was decent, but it could have been so much more.


I think there are two levels MLP works on: Does the episode get its message across to kids? And does it manage to rise beyond normal kids' show level entertainment?

Episodes aren't bad if they succeed at the first and fail at the second. There are plenty of average pony episodes. But maybe changelings are rare enough that we expect them to really go beyond the norm. For example, Griffonstone showed us a (terrible) griffon town, gave us some griffon mythology, and still ended with a friendship lesson that didn't feel forced.

I do think they should've wrapped up the loose ends HH mentioned. What was the deal with the hissing? Is that fixed now, or what? Is he actually trustworthy, and do the ponies really trust him?

The uncertainty feels a lot like when Discord was reformed, or Sunset Shimmer, or Starlight Glimmer. Are they going to come back to this later? It isn't wrapped up yet, and it deserves another episode. Thorax seems to be uniquely friendly among changelings, so is he going to go back to the hive to teach them like Gilda did? Are the changelings going to attack and divide his loyalties?
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:01 am

I saw this video and it seemed to fit perfectly with this week's episode. It's a bit sad, I teared up a little bit near the end.
:cry:



Hold back the tears...
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I hope I don't make anyone cry to much by posting this.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:04 am

Well now I'm more depressed than usual after that video...
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Postby Sidotsy (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:22 pm

Soft Snow wrote:I saw this video and it seemed to fit perfectly with this week's episode. It's a bit sad, I teared up a little bit near the end.
:cry:



Hold back the tears...
:saddershy:

I hope I don't make anyone cry to much by posting this.
:flutterunsmith:

I wish I were a better mare...
:fluttersmith:



ahhhhhh :saddershy: that was so good and so sad.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:28 pm

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http://higglytownhero.deviantart.com/art/Thorax-629500586

I agree with what most people said about the ending and just the execution in general...but if they return to this it could be a lot of fun. I sort of wish Thorax had already been living as a pony for awhile now and it was about accepting that someone they had been friends with was a changeling. That would make the end a lot smoother. In fact, I'm sort of surprised they didn't go that route.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:05 pm

That would have been super good and also super LGBT-metaphory.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:34 pm

That would have been great. :3:

The Crystal Empire is a great setting for that sort of thing because from the audience's point of view, we don't really know any of the ponies there, and you can reveal "Pony X was a changeling the whole time" and it doesn't feel like a cheap retcon, the way it might if it were a character we had known and loved for a while.

Like, I'm trying to imagine Ransom's idea happening in Ponyville. Not only do the Ponyville ponies have to deal with the shock and deception, but the audience is challenged as well. Who would be a candidate for such a story? (They'd have been introduced in the last season or two, probably.) I dunno, Bulk Biceps or somebody.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:25 pm

Flash Sentry? :fluttershock:

Taking a character, even a 'background pony' like...Lyra and revealing they've been a Changeling the whole time would, if nothing else, be a fun mind screw moment.

It also would open that question that hasn't really been touched since the Changelings arrived: are their Changelings, loyal to Chrysalis or not, hidden and living around Equestria? Could any character we run into potentially be someone in disguise?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:34 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if there were other Changelings around who feel as Thorax did, that there had to be a better way of living that to drain other species of love. If he does return to the hive eventually, he might be able to convince other drones, but I'm guessing Chrissy will be a tougher nut to crack.

The ultimate twist would be if Celly was the Changeling, and the real Celestia had been cocooned since ACW. Image

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Chrissy's expression while looking at the larva Thorax was interesting. It could be "another drone to do my bidding" or it could be "I know there's something different about you. Watch your step!" Image
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Postby Auxiliatrix (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:10 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:
I think there are two levels MLP works on: Does the episode get its message across to kids? And does it manage to rise beyond normal kids' show level entertainment?

Episodes aren't bad if they succeed at the first and fail at the second. There are plenty of average pony episodes. But maybe changelings are rare enough that we expect them to really go beyond the norm. For example, Griffonstone showed us a (terrible) griffon town, gave us some griffon mythology, and still ended with a friendship lesson that didn't feel forced.

I do think they should've wrapped up the loose ends HH mentioned. What was the deal with the hissing? Is that fixed now, or what? Is he actually trustworthy, and do the ponies really trust him?

The uncertainty feels a lot like when Discord was reformed, or Sunset Shimmer, or Starlight Glimmer. Are they going to come back to this later? It isn't wrapped up yet, and it deserves another episode. Thorax seems to be uniquely friendly among changelings, so is he going to go back to the hive to teach them like Gilda did? Are the changelings going to attack and divide his loyalties?


I'm not complaining about the uncertainty; I'm saying that they should have added like, five minutes maybe, to the run-time. Then they wouldn't have had to wrap the story up so quickly, and would have had time to give these characters more time to actually interact. Everything moved so quickly that I just wasn't as invested as I probably should have been, and for me, that's a huge problem.

I don't need my every last question answered, and I don't need to know if the Changelings are coming back or not. I want the episode's conflict to be resolved, so it can still stand by itself. Because I felt like the emotional scenes were rushed, I don't think the resulting resolution was as strong as it maybe could have been, regardless of if the Changelings return or not.

That's what most of my thoughts were about, if you read them! I also never called it "bad"; just not great. :-P
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:14 pm

I mean "Changeling story" is so well-worn a concept by now that it's basically a trope in and of itself. If you do it the "right" way you're going to end up with stories dealing with whether beloved characters you've known all along are actually changelings/double agents/Cylons/Founders in disguise, and what that means for your team politically or existentially. It's the "right" way to do it because it's fertile ground for good drama. But it also means a lot of other shows have gotten there first.

Thing is, in this case they don't seem even to have gone for the "obvious" well of suddenly revealing that someone who was introduced right around the same time as Canterlot Wedding (lol, my money would be on Shining Armor) is a changeling, whether for the hoary old payoff of "they're a spy, get 'em :jingo: " or for the more novel idea of "they just want to be friends, they shouldn't have to hide". Either way would have been good, but they tried to do a "changeling story" as a straight-up don't judge-a-book-by-its-cover "other story", where people just have to get past their prejudices about someone who's been an "other" ever since they were introduced. Kind of a missed opportunity.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:59 pm

Honestly the moral was a good moral and I'm not going to hold it against the show for pushing that moral since I was worried about the possibility of the opposite happening: the eventually the changeling would be revealed to actually be faking being nice and you really can't trust "them".

My only problem is they give no good reason why any of the Ponies should trust thorax, especially Cadance and Shining Armor. The more and more I think about it they should have just cut the song. It really isn't all that great of a song and just has the novelty of being a Spike song.

Instead they should have used that time to have Spike I don't know maybe explain, "hey the is changeling saved me from falling to my death... twice." I mean sure spike has no photographic evidence or anything but it beats Spike singing a song and Twilight vouches for him just... cause.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:25 pm

Ransom wrote:I agree with what most people said about the ending and just the execution in general...but if they return to this it could be a lot of fun. I sort of wish Thorax had already been living as a pony for awhile now and it was about accepting that someone they had been friends with was a changeling. That would make the end a lot smoother. In fact, I'm sort of surprised they didn't go that route.

The trouble with this is that Thorax clearly had trouble controlling himself when he was shown any amount of consideration, enough to where I think he would draw suspicion fairly quickly if he attempted to live amongst the crystal ponies in disguise. If he did not have that problem, then why would he even have any need for showing his true form? He could've just gone amongst the crystal ponies and this whole episode wouldn't have happened.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 10:04 pm

Someone needs to switch Spike's song for this one instead: https://youtu.be/uUkA7VBxkG0

80s songs are much more inspirational.
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Postby Marimo (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:09 pm

So what are the chances that Thorax trying to make other changelings change will lead to Chrysalis finding out about Flurry Hearts and how the Crystal Empire now has the most love in all of Equestria, making her target it in the season finale?

Or maybe this will be revisited next season finale like they did with Hugh the Borg's storyline in Star Trek The Next Generation.
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Postby Rainbow Crash (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:21 pm

Mechanical Ape wrote:Like, I'm trying to imagine Ransom's idea happening in Ponyville. Not only do the Ponyville ponies have to deal with the shock and deception, but the audience is challenged as well. Who would be a candidate for such a story? (They'd have been introduced in the last season or two, probably.) I dunno, Bulk Biceps or somebody.

I think people in general really hate this. They did it on The Simpsons with Principal Skinner and fans got pretty mad, even though he was just a secondary or tertiary character. I can only imagine what the reaction would be with the more passionate pony fans.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:24 pm

Well considering which leaked episode list ended up being the legit one I don't think we're going to see Thorax in the finale.

Though honestly the alleged title for the finale doesn't give away much of anything.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 2:16 am

Rainbow Crash wrote:I think people in general really hate this. They did it on The Simpsons with Principal Skinner and fans got pretty mad, even though he was just a secondary or tertiary character. I can only imagine what the reaction would be with the more passionate pony fans.


It's also plot hole city, given that most of the main characters in the show (and Lyra!) were at the wedding where all the changelings got magic-apulted into high orbit.

I don't think they'll go that direction anyway because of the end of this episode:

Image I want to know all about friendship, and maybe one day I can take that knowledge back to the Changeling Kingdom! If my kind learned how to create love for one another, maybe they wouldn't have to take it from others!

So the "good" outcome is the same as Gilda and the griffons, or Spike and the dragons, or Starswirl and Scorpan: Thorax goes back home to teach everybuggy about friendship off-screen.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:15 am

Auxiliatrix wrote:I've heard a couple people call this episode as a contender for the best of the season, but I don't really understand it.

What's to understand? Baby changelings are adorable!
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ahhhhhh :saddershy: that was so good and so sad.

I'm addicted to a certain kind of sadness...
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 1:16 pm

Also I the title song pun. An upcoming episode also has a song title. :allears:
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 3:49 pm

"Roll with the Changelings" would also have been acceptable.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:01 pm

Or "Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-Changelings" :smug:
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Postby Auxiliatrix (?) » Tue Aug 23, 2016 4:12 pm

PonyHag714 wrote:Or "Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch-Changelings" :smug:


I see what you did there! :-I
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:57 am

Image Image Image Image Image

Image Image Image Image Image

Image Image Image Image
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:41 am

"Heathcliff!" Image Image "Catherine!"
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:42 am

I'm going to abuse those smilies so much. Good job.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:44 am

Image THE ARISTOCRATS!
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:06 am

Image Fillies and Gentlecolts, allow me to introduce my new friend, Thorax the Changeling!
Image Hello ...
Image !!!
Image Now, I know what you're all thinking, but Thorax is a totally stand-up bro and I can vouch for him.
:allright: Well! I guess that's alright, then.
Image I'm proud of you, Spike. You've shown us all that a friend can come from anywhere.
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Image HISSSSSSSSSSSS. THANKS FOR HAVING ME OVER. MIND IF I HOLD THE BABY?
Image
Image Aiiieee! Get that thing outta here!
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Image Guys you're just going to have to see past the hissing and flopping tongue, okay?
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:20 am

You're a treasure, Scuds. :lol:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:20 pm

That was brilliant. Image
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Postby Octavia (?) » Wed Aug 24, 2016 3:45 pm


:tada: please
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Postby Auxiliatrix (?) » Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:20 am

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:Image Now, I know what you're all thinking, but Thorax is a totally stand-up bro and I can vouch for him.


"Totally stand-up bro"... :-P
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:39 am

Whoops, missed one: Image
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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:49 am

Octavia wrote::tada: please

And that's how Equestria was founded!
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:24 am

When Thorax disguised himself, "Crystal Hoof" was a colt and not an adult of any sort. I wonder, was that so as to make his cover as Spike's friend more believable, or because he's not an adult changeling?
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