S04E12: Pinkie Pride

Episode, movie, and comic book discussion threads are kept here once they have been released.

Moderators: Perrydotto, Dexanth, Venusy, Wayoshi

Re: S04E12: Pinkie Pride

Postby Tears (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:38 pm

:twonk: AND THEY GATHERED IN THEIR MASSES

:fancyhat: LIKE THE WITCHES AT BLACK MASSES

:rariwhat: Wait, aren't these lines a little lazy? Maybe we could try a second pass?

:twiright: No need, Rarity. We're rich now.

:wingsright:
Image
Tears
User avatar
An appalling piece of pimpwork or a thoroughly botched token of sincerity
Joined: Apr 06, 2013
Gender: Male

Postby InC (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:41 pm

Songwriting is a very specific skill, and songwriting for a tune that hasn't even been written yet is hard enough that it's not surprising people whose job is to tell stories can't do it right. I guess that would a good way to rationalize it, but realtalk: pony writers just suck at rhyming. Image

(Who do we not have a Zecora smiley? I had to GIS a FiM character :gonkity: )


sailoryue wrote:Well in my opinion, the one pony song that has the worst lyrics is "The pony every pony should know" Some of the lyrics are alright, but the overuse of the word pony in that song is ridiculous lol :P (i can see why that song didnt get dubbed in the Japanese dub)


Eh, I actually think it's the show's strongest song lyrically, specifically because it actually does something with the lyrics (Cider Cider Cider is good as well, but the talk-singing with little rhyming probably helped). The repetition is intentional and makes up the texture of the whole song, from all the repeated words to "the crème de la crème" and "the belle of the ball". It's a bouncy, easy-listening, self-absorbed and narcissistic piece of pop music that you're supposed to be critical of, and while I don't particularly care for the melody, it's definitely the best use of a song sequence the show has done in my eyes. A Day Aria is wonderfully orchestrated, but the first thing Cadance is worried about is, apparently, cake. :rariwhat:
InC
User avatar
got cups on my ears
Princesses of Soul
Joined: Feb 27, 2012
Location: France
Gender: Female

Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:42 pm

InC wrote:A Day Aria is wonderfully orchestrated, but the first thing Cadance is worried about is, apparently, cake. :rariwhat:


:gotcha: She is Celestia's adopted niece.
The Doctor
User avatar
Turner of all things timey wimey
Celestia's Champions
Joined: May 05, 2011
Location: Time & Space
Gender: Male

Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:55 pm

:allright:
This day was going to be perfect
The kind of day of which I've dreamed since I was small
But instead of having cake
With all my friends to celebrate
My wedding bells, they may not ring for me at all…


:evil:
I could care less about the dress
I won't partake in any cake
Vows, well I'll be lying when I say...



:gotcha: Hiding under our noses all this time! The clues were so obvious in retrospect.
.:gotcha: At least under my nose. Everypony else has to crane their neck up a bit.
:pcstare: Always tallest.
Just Scuds
User avatar
Summer ain't over until I say it's over.
Fashion Queens
Joined: Feb 14, 2011

Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:05 pm

Not gonna lie, Chrysalis singing about how she could care less about the dress still bugs me to this day.
Image
Fizzbuzz
User avatar
Stare Masters
Joined: Mar 02, 2013
Location: TN
Gender: Male

Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:06 pm

Headless Horse wrote:I do want to say "Glass of Water" last week really did feel like it was playing in the big leagues, lyrically. First and only time for this show, and it felt like it was getting there only because they pulled out every last one of their stops.


I meant to write up something about this last week, but I agree with Headless that "Glass of Water" is nearly perfect lyrically (not just rhyme but meter and stressed syllables and word variety and building up to a climax and resolution). I love it. HOWEVER I feel like you've gotta hold back a few points on the fact that the premise is basically "a list of weird stuff," meaning you could come up with a similar song yourself just by spending an hour at rhymezone.com.

Wayoshi wrote:-I'm still trying to wrap my ahead around this Pink-IE vs. PINK-ie thing... sounds exactly the same in my head.


The thinking is basically, what rhymes with baker? Shaker, maker, Quaker, right? You're unconsciously rhyming both syllables because the stress is on the first syllable. It's important for the rhyme to match the stress. The second syllable, "er," is just a carryover. You have to rhyme it too but you can't ONLY rhyme it. (There once was a lovesick baker/Whose heart was devoted to her :-/ )

Now, what rhymes with hotel? Bell, shell, foretell, death knell, right? Notice you're not rhyming both syllables any more, only the second one because that's where the stress is.

"Pinkie" is the first kind of word. It's not as blatant as "baker" so you can get away with fudging it a bit, but you're still fudging it. "It's the best place for me/For Pink-ee" isn't a rhyme. It's like, half a rhyme.
PictishBeast
User avatar
Character Select: Winter Nickel
Abilities: Cynicism lv1, Ennui lv1
Inventory: Turnip
Diamond Dusters
Joined: Aug 12, 2012
Gender: Male

Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:07 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Not gonna lie, Chrysalis singing about how she could care less about the dress still bugs me to this day.


Because secretly, she loved the dress. it was made by Rarity after all. :vogue:
The Doctor
User avatar
Turner of all things timey wimey
Celestia's Champions
Joined: May 05, 2011
Location: Time & Space
Gender: Male

Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:08 pm

The Doctor wrote:
I can't hate that line because it comes during that shot of a totally defeated Pinkie being helped by AJ. :allears:


Not to mention that Kazumi Evans is an amazing singer. Her singing elevates the Generosity song as well.
In omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
Niels Olof
User avatar
Wide-ruled paper is for foals.
Rarity's Roughnecks
Joined: Nov 20, 2013
Location: Denmark
Gender: Male

Postby Rainbow Brite (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:38 pm

I do think it's kind of a shame that the real knockout singers (Shannon Chan-Kent, Kazumi Evans, Rebecca Stoichet) don't get regular speaking roles in the show. That's not to talk down Ball's or Libman's singing, but I feel like those three hit it out of the park all the time.
Orange Fluffy Sheep wrote:It reminds me of the paragon of western romantic literature, Grease.
Rainbow Brite
User avatar
Diamond Dusters
Joined: Feb 14, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:07 pm

I'm him, I'm the guy who didn't love this episode. But I loved parts of this episode, and here they are:

Image

I love how Pinkie is sitting here, looking down from a high vantage point like a cat.

Image

It was unexpected how they gave a line to Diamond Tiara in this song and didn't force it to make her come across utterly horrible. Plus she sung the hell out of it.

Image

So many great faces in this episode. I thought the new faces in Flight to the Finish were weird and off-putting, but in this episode they seemed surprising and refreshing.

Image

Jayson deserves some kind of medal for doing a sequence in his basement, in his spare time, again. And rather than just hook a rubber chicken to some strings he made a new one out of balloons and rice. So great.

Image

That's goddamn adorable.

The Outlander wrote:Honestly, still better than most cartoon songs. Have you ever heard freaking Strawberry Shortcake?


This is true but there's definitely a spectrum. There are a few kids shows -- from what I've seen of them, I'd nominate Phineas and Ferb and the Backyardigans -- that turn out consistently strong musical numbers.
PictishBeast
User avatar
Character Select: Winter Nickel
Abilities: Cynicism lv1, Ennui lv1
Inventory: Turnip
Diamond Dusters
Joined: Aug 12, 2012
Gender: Male

Postby WandereringPony (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:15 pm

Rainbow Brite wrote:I do think it's kind of a shame that the real knockout singers (Shannon Chan-Kent, Kazumi Evans, Rebecca Stoichet) don't get regular speaking roles in the show. That's not to talk down Ball's or Libman's singing, but I feel like those three hit it out of the park all the time.


I'm sorta surprised they -don't- get VA work on top of the singing angles...unless it's hard for them to get to the studio for that.
WandereringPony
Joined: Mar 23, 2013
Gender: Male

Postby Stuff (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:19 pm

It's been a day, but I'm still blown away by how awesome this episode is. Top 5 or 10 for sure. :awesomedash:
Stuff
User avatar
Scootaloo's Pro Scooters
Joined: Nov 05, 2011
Location: Home means Nevada, Home means the hills

Postby Orange Fluffy Sheep (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:29 pm

I watched this episode with my eyeballs and this ep totally rocked my eyeballs. And my ears. Hell this episode would taste good too if I could eat it.

I can't complain about anything and if I could I'd be the nitpickingest nitpicker to ever pick nits.

Image

^^^^^ I could do that professionally and still not be enough of a nitpicker.

What I'm saying is this episode is clinically amazing and almost consistently fun. And when it wasn't fun it was poignant about pink party pony problems.
Orange Fluffy Sheep
User avatar
Rarity's Roughnecks
Joined: Feb 17, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:36 pm

Not to diss the singers, either, but they also probably get a lot more time to run through just the songs than the actors who have to pound through a season worth of dialogue.

Shannon Chan-Kent is the speaking voice of Silver Spoon, although that's not a huge role. She's done a fair number of voices (and live-action roles) on other shows, though.
Kazumi Evans has surprisingly few credits outside of singing for Rarity -- basically just a voice in a couple of Barbie videos (one of them is "Barbie & Her Sisters in a Pony Tale" :gotcha: )
Rebecca Shoichet has a credit for "Reefer Madness: The Movie Musical" :starity:

P.S. Can't stop hearing the songs, please send help.
SlateSlabrock
User avatar
The information's unavailable to the mortal man.
Celestia's Champions
Joined: Feb 14, 2011

Postby Sind (?) » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:00 pm

We need a DT&SS song now. There are no excuses
Sind
User avatar
Joined: Mar 02, 2013
Gender: Male

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:03 am

PictishBeast wrote:"Pinkie" is the first kind of word. It's not as blatant as "baker" so you can get away with fudging it a bit, but you're still fudging it. "It's the best place for me/For Pink-ee" isn't a rhyme. It's like, half a rhyme.


Perhaps not the best example because the "For Pinkie" line isn't part of the normal rhyme scheme anyway. The song in question would sound perfectly natural if it went

Oh the Grand Galloping Gala is the best place for me
Oh the Grand Galloping Gala is the best place for me
Hip hip hooray
It's the best place for me
For Fluttershy!


A better example might be:

Twilight is my bestest friend
Whoopee, whoopee

Pinkie...
She's the cutest, smartest, all around best po-NEE, po-NEE
Pinkie...
I bet if I throw a super-duper fun par-TEE, par-TEE
Pinkie!
She'll give her extra ticket to the Gala to meeeee!

So while this episode's songs are full of rhymes that mash "eeee" sounds up against "Pink-eeee", it's just the latest in a long tradition that goes right back to the beginning. Seems like AKR in particular is given to treating the "eee" sound as the thing to rhyme with, even if it means reading all the relevant words with the wrong syllabic emphasis ("par-TEE", "po-NEE", "pin-KEE").

The alternative seems like it could be worse. Imagine if they tried to rhyme everything with "Pink". What do you have to work with? Think, blink, sink... uh... squink ... :wat:

By which I mean that someone willing to give the lyrics-writing a big heaping benefit of the doubt could claim that emphasizing "eee" is a conscious choice, an attempt to tap into rhymable words in the English language that are a lot more versatile and numerous than they otherwise would have been. The "ink" words aren't just small in number, they're also short, sharp, staccato—kind of the opposite of the sound you want coming out of your mouth when you're trying to project joy and irreverence.

I remember once a long time ago seeing a show about Broadway lyrics, where an interviewee talked about Sondheim's "Send In the Clowns", a song whose first lines go like this:

Isn't it rich
Aren't we a pair?
Me here at last on the ground
You in mid-air
Send in the clowns


The person was talking about the choice of the word rich in the first line—not the most flowing of words, not the easiest one to sing. It's a choppy, biting sound. And she explained that Sondheim had consciously chosen the word rich—with all its constraints and limitations—to fit better into the character of the aging lady who is singing it, wistfully, bitterly, full of regret. She compared it, for the sake of argument, to "Isn't it bluuuuuuue?" Which a vocalist could really chew on, draw out, fill with emotion... but which would have been utterly wrong for the character and the mood of the song. Sondheim wanted the line to come off like a curse, not a lullaby.

I don't have any illusions that AKR is a lyricist with the skill to be able to pull off a trick like that. When she stumbles, it's because she's honestly struggling. I grant that. But... maybe, subconsciously, she understands that pink is a word that doesn't have the right textural connotations for the kinds of songs she writes around Pinkie Pie.

A really clever lyricist could write a song that leveraged the "pink" in Pinkie's name, making it a piece of internal rhyme:

Before there's time to think, you'll cry
It's all because of Pinkie Pie!


or

We landed in the drink
And as fast as you could blink
We all cried out "Hey Pinkie!"
And threw in the kitchen sink


... You know. Something like that. (I'm trying to illustrate here, not actually write lyrics that make sense, shut up :rainbert: )

The point being, it's limiting, writing this way. And giving yourself the license to say "Pin-KEE" opens up a whole universe of rhyme possibilities that aren't otherwise on the table. Not only are there a ton more words that fit, they also sound more "Pinkie-like".

:-P Pink
:cheese: EEEEEE

You know what I mean?

Highbrow Dash does:

Highbrow Dash wrote:I don't really mind if they mess with the pronuntiation a little for the sake of a rhyme :pinkieshrug:

Image: You better THINK before you mess with the PINK

Image: ie pie


That right there is a perfect example of the writers encountering this very phenomenon and playing around with it—perhaps at a novice level, but still having fun with the tools at their disposal. M.A. Larson isn't a master lyricist either, but he saw immediate comedic potential in the sonic ridiculousness and inherent limitation of "Pink" as a rhyme element. And I think Rogers has a similar understanding of it, to the extent that she gravitates naturally away from it when she's writing Pinkie songs. She wants the whole thing to sound like :cheese:


And I guess that's why I'm making my peace with this episode being full of all those "That po-NEE is MEEE" lines
Headless Horse
User avatar
The yoke is strictly ornamental
Faithful Students
Joined: May 23, 2011

Postby ComradeCosmobot (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:16 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:I don't really mind if they mess with the pronuntiation a little for the sake of a rhyme :pinkieshrug:

Image: You better THINK before you mess with the PINK

Image: ie pie


All this talk about horrible lyrics reminds me of Jean-Ralphio.
ComradeCosmobot
Site Admin
Joined: Feb 14, 2011

Postby blasmeister (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:41 am

Headless' av is becoming more ironic by the minute :wowzers:
Image
ImageImageImageImage
blasmeister
User avatar
(heavy breathing)
Semper Pie
Joined: Sep 15, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:02 am

Headless Horse wrote:The point being, it's limiting, writing this way. And giving yourself the license to say "Pin-KEE" opens up a whole universe of rhyme possibilities that aren't otherwise on the table. Not only are there a ton more words that fit, they also sound more "Pinkie-like".


I dunno, that's a whole lot of benefit of the doubt. I think it's more likely what InC said, songwriting is a very specific skill and the way pony production is set up it's not really optimized for composer/lyricist collaboration.

If it's tough to make "-ink" rhymes they could easily make "pie" rhymes, or just structure so her name isn't at the end of the line. "My name is Pinkie Pie and I am here to say/I'm gonna make you smile and I will brighten up your day" is a good lyric.

I mean it's basically impossible to rhyme Rarity with anything, so instead they structure her songs differently. I think it's more likely they just say "pinkie rhymes with Eeee, easy rhymes ahoy" and go to work. :pinkieshrug:

And I totally sympathize with the people who are reading this and thinking "god you are the worst kind of nerd for going on and on about this subject that no one cares about please shut up already," so in my defense I want to say that lyrical structure is awesome. There's a real art to it and a kind of giddy beauty when it's firing on all cylinders. "Glass of Water" last week was like that. Pony has lots of great little lyrical triumphs.

Since Headless brought up Sondheim, here's one example of why lyrical structure is awesome:

SWEENEY TODD: The history of the world, my love
MRS. LOVETT: Save a lot of graves, do a lot of relatives favors
SWEENEY TODD: Is those below serving those up above
MRS. LOVETT: Everybody shaves so there should be plenty of flavors


I mean Jesus Christ. Every word of that is perfect. Perfect rhyme. Perfect meter. Perfect interplay (each singer has their own rhythm based on the number of syllables). Perfect way of presenting plot information to the audience. Perfect characterization (Mrs. Lovett is making little excuses, Sweeney is grandly pontificating about social justice). Perfect double meanings.

I'm a freaking evangelist for lyrical structure and I love it when it gets into my ponies too. "Pinkie the Party Planner" and "The Goof Off" in this episode are both pretty solid.

And if you want to hear Mrs. Potts sing about cannibalism (seriously why wouldn't you):
PictishBeast
User avatar
Character Select: Winter Nickel
Abilities: Cynicism lv1, Ennui lv1
Inventory: Turnip
Diamond Dusters
Joined: Aug 12, 2012
Gender: Male

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:11 am

Not that I'm trying to make any particular point, but in response to the "Glass of Water is just a list of things so it's easy" point (which applies to "Friend Like Me" too, so hey), I'll put "Prince Ali" up against the best of the best in terms of Sondheim-esque counterpoint.

Prince Ali, handsome is he
There's no question this Ali's alluring
Ali Ababwa
Never ordinary, never boring
That physique! How can I speak? Weak at the knee...
Everything about the man just plain impresses
Well get on out in that square
He's a winner, he's a whiz, a wonder
Adjust your veil and prepare
He's about to pull my heart asunder
To gawk and grovel and stare at Prince Ali!
And I absolutely love the way he dresses!


I mean WHAT THE FUUUUCK. :shenanigans:
Headless Horse
User avatar
The yoke is strictly ornamental
Faithful Students
Joined: May 23, 2011

Postby Discord (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:26 am

And that is how Pinkie Pride became the musical thread... :gotcha:

Ultimately as much as I enjoy musical numbers and lyrics in a vacuum, they're only ever small parts of a whole. A lot of the analysis I've been watching barely touches on the music, instead focusing on how well the story and Pinkie Pie's development is told, and that's ultimately is all that's stake with the musical numbers.

Not that the songs being broken down lacks merit or enjoyment, it's just context of course.

Songs like Glass of Water, Prince Ali, Friend Like Me, and one of my favourites of the brilliant lyrical insanity song, Modern Major General, are all great, but they don't exactly convey a real feeling other than "this is happy and fun and INSANE". "Goof-Off" is the same way. They usually don't rank as highly for me as a result, but I still get a great deal of enjoyment out of them.
Discord
User avatar
Agents of Chaos
Joined: Dec 11, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:44 am

No fair bringing "A Little Priest" into it, Pictish. Mostly because every single word of that song is carefully crafted to be funny as all hell while still being a bright, bouncy song about cannibalism. It's perfect in every way.

It's not fair because it took Sondheim literally years to put it together. He wrote in his memoirs, years later, about little lyrical things he'd still have changed in that book if he had the chance.

Which is kind of what my point is. It took Sondheim years of writing to get to that level, and he still was his own worst critic. Tim Rice (who's responsible for Headless' example from Alladin) likewise is a genius-level wordsmith. Some of the stuff he did recently to revive the Chess book for "Chess In Concert" was inspired- because he'd been working on it on-and-off for literally decades.

Amy Keating-Rogers writes horsie cartoons. Which is a noble profession, but it's just not the same as what Sondheim and Rice do, and it's a little unfair to hold her to that standard, unless you wanted to wait another year for her to collaborate with Daniel Ingram on getting everything tightened up lyrically.
ImageImage :fancyhat:
Wylie
User avatar
Rarity's Roughnecks
Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:00 am

Headless Horse wrote:Perhaps not the best example because the "For Pinkie" line isn't part of the normal rhyme scheme anyway.
[...]
A better example might be:

Twilight is my bestest friend
Whoopee, whoopee

Pinkie...
She's the cutest, smartest, all around best po-NEE, po-NEE
Pinkie...
I bet if I throw a super-duper fun par-TEE, par-TEE
Pinkie!
She'll give her extra ticket to the Gala to meeeee!

[etc etc etc]

I love this kind of stuff. You can preach and praise all you want about the art of fitting syllables and sounds to perfectly fit within a set structure of rhythm and stress, but dancing around those constructs at times can be so much more fun than always following them (as long as you don't make it a point to break the exact same rule every time). And in this particular example, it gives a much stronger implication that Pinkie is improvising the lyrics on the spot. Not everything is perfect, as would be expected when making up anything on the spot.

I like how Cheese almost comes off like a tragic hero of sorts. Here we have a character who spends his life wandering the world, throwing parties to recapture a feeling of acceptance and joy he once experienced as a lonely and depressed young colt. He's outrageously zany, loud and excessive; a flash in the pan who set up such lavish events, then leaves before everybody has a chance to burn themselves out. His lifestyle demands he keep his friendly relationships with other ponies at a shallow level, which is possibly still more friendliness from others than he was shown in his childhood. Even his deepest connection, with Pinkie Pie, is limited at best: he stumbled into one of her parties; she doesn't even recognize him from that time, though she had such a profound effect on him. He carries one-sided conversations with an inanimate object as if he's still a kid. He's such a lonely guy, desperate to feel accepted and loved that he lives his life to protect himself from potential long-term pain. Despite being so similar to Pinkie Pie, he clearly has different motivations and character than her.

Pinkie lives for the long-term happiness of the people who make her happy, like her existence helps others validate their lives by knowing her. Cheese lives for the short-term happiness of all, to validate himself. It's so saddening, yet so badass, especially for MLP.
Image
ImageImageImageImage
Davyinatoga
User avatar
Whoo, the backdraft from last night's chili causing all sorts of havoc tonight!
Semper Pie
Joined: Jul 12, 2011
Location: Country country, USA
Gender: Male

Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:03 am

So, this is a thing now. :-P
Image
Sunset Shimmer is BEST Hu-Mane!!
SoundMonkey44
User avatar
Ain't Got No Sense, No Sense At All.
Joined: Feb 04, 2013
Location: The South West
Gender: Male

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:05 am

Wylie wrote:Which is kind of what my point is. It took Sondheim years of writing to get to that level, and he still was his own worst critic. Tim Rice (who's responsible for Headless' example from Alladin) likewise is a genius-level wordsmith. Some of the stuff he did recently to revive the Chess book for "Chess In Concert" was inspired- because he'd been working on it on-and-off for literally decades.


Ahem, actually that bit was the late Howard Ashman. Tim Rice isn't fit to sharpen Ashman's bequested pencils. :jingo:
Headless Horse
User avatar
The yoke is strictly ornamental
Faithful Students
Joined: May 23, 2011

Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:10 am

Didn't Rice finish Ashman's work on Alladin, though? Maybe that's what I was thinking. I'm not sure where the line fell exactly as to what Rice wrote and what Ashman wrote.
ImageImage :fancyhat:
Wylie
User avatar
Rarity's Roughnecks
Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Perrydotto (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:11 am

Davyinatoga wrote:I like how Cheese almost comes off like a tragic hero of sorts. Here we have a character who spends his life wandering the world, throwing parties to recapture a feeling of acceptance and joy he once experienced as a lonely and depressed young colt. He's outrageously zany, loud and excessive; a flash in the pan who set up such lavish events, then leaves before everybody has a chance to burn themselves out. His lifestyle demands he keep his friendly relationships with other ponies at a shallow level, which is possibly still more friendliness from others than he was shown in his childhood. Even his deepest connection, with Pinkie Pie, is limited at best: he stumbled into one of her parties; she doesn't even recognize him from that time, though she had such a profound effect on him. He carries one-sided conversations with an inanimate object as if he's still a kid. He's such a lonely guy, desperate to feel accepted and loved that he lives his life to protect himself from potential long-term pain. Despite being so similar to Pinkie Pie, he clearly has different motivations and character than her.

Pinkie lives for the long-term happiness of the people who make her happy, like her existence helps others validate their lives by knowing her. Cheese lives for the short-term happiness of all, to validate himself. It's so saddening, yet so badass, especially for MLP.


This is a damn fine post and I sign it wholeheartedly. Wonderfully observed, sir.
Image /// Image /// Image
Perrydotto
User avatar
Agents of Chaos
Joined: Jun 14, 2012
Location: The final frontier
Gender: Female

Postby FightingDreamer (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:12 am

Ashman's finished songs in the film are Arabian Nights, Friend Like Me, and Prince Ali. Rice did One Jump Ahead, the Prince Ali reprise, and A Whole New World.

I think that's a rather harsh assessment of Rice myself.
http://chrisspider.wordpress.com/
Reviews of animated films, TV shows and shorts.
FightingDreamer
User avatar
STEVEN!
Joined: Sep 26, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:12 am

Wylie wrote:Didn't Rice finish Ashman's work on Alladin, though? Maybe that's what I was thinking. I'm not sure where the line fell exactly as to what Rice wrote and what Ashman wrote.


He did, and all of Rice's songs in Aladdin were lame and pedestrian. "One Jump Ahead", "A Whole New World", and the reprise of "Prince Ali" that makes me gag:

So Ali turns out to be merely Aladdin
Just a con, need I go on, take it from me


That's some "Generosity" level shit right there. :bluh:


He then went on to write a soundtrack full of gibberish for The Lion King that was saved only by being mashed into shape by Hans Zimmer and about five billion rewrites of "Can You Feel the Love Tonight" at Elton John's piano.
Headless Horse
User avatar
The yoke is strictly ornamental
Faithful Students
Joined: May 23, 2011

Postby FightingDreamer (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:22 am

I confess I don't really remember a lot of the stuff from my music appreciation classes, so could you explain what "rhythm and meter" mean? I admit to not thinking too hard about lyrics, but this stuff just doesn't enter my brain at all when thinking about music.
http://chrisspider.wordpress.com/
Reviews of animated films, TV shows and shorts.
FightingDreamer
User avatar
STEVEN!
Joined: Sep 26, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Pocket (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:28 am

Pinkie's habit of rhyming "PinKEE" with things was (before now) something only she ever did and I always sort of put it down to an in-character thing. One of her things was that she writes little ditties and sings them to whoever will listen and that would be true even if this show weren't prone to real musical numbers, I think. And like anyone who just does that for fun, she's not the best at it. So when they stick lines like that in the parts she has in real musical numbers, it feels like a nod to that aspect of her.

BackgroundPony wrote:Totally agreed here. I love that song, but every time Rarity sings "We can try to do what we can now / For together we can be her guide" I just cringe. We can try to do what we can now? Yeeeesh! Talk about your meaningless filler lines.

And now you know why I'm the one person who hated the Bats song. The lyrics felt like they were 90% applesauce like that, in a musical style that's normally based around bending over backwards to accommodate much better ones.

Headless Horse wrote:Ahem, actually that bit was the late Howard Ashman. Tim Rice isn't fit to sharpen Ashman's bequested pencils. :jingo:

Thank you. I was going to mention that if you hadn't. Ashman always had a thing for "list songs" like that. I never knew what those background singers on the balcony were signing though. I may have to save that post for future reference.
Last edited by Pocket on Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Orange Fluffy Sheep wrote:i am not ready for the transhumanist revolution to begin with my butt
Pocket
User avatar
I am shocked. Shocked. To find furry trash on my wholesome Pony forum.
Rainbow Racers
Joined: Sep 28, 2011
Location: In a bulding...

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:28 am

Meter is this:

but SOFT! what LIGHT through YONder WINdow BREAKS

and why you don't say

BUT soft what LIGHT through yonDER winDOW BREAKS

or

i am HERE at THE Grand GALa
for it IS the BEST parTY
but the ONE thing IT was MISsing WAS a POny NAMED pinKIE


In other words it's the natural emphasis of syllables falling into a pleasing pattern. Sucky meter is when you have to emphasize the wrong syllables just to make the words fit the beats of the music.
Headless Horse
User avatar
The yoke is strictly ornamental
Faithful Students
Joined: May 23, 2011

Postby FightingDreamer (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:31 am

Ah, I see. Well, I probably still won't think TOO terribly hard about that, but it's nice to know. Thanks!
http://chrisspider.wordpress.com/
Reviews of animated films, TV shows and shorts.
FightingDreamer
User avatar
STEVEN!
Joined: Sep 26, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:32 am

Here's what I'm never able to get. In cases like this, why is it that the subjective quality of the music always goes down the more educated you are on the subject? I mean, it almost seems like being taught all of these rules that must be adhered to makes it harder to enjoy music that doesn't do it perfectly, while those who don't know about those rules don't hear the problem, and thus enjoy the music more.
Perpetual Lurker
User avatar
Just blending in.
Special Flowers
Joined: Oct 16, 2012
Gender: Genderless

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:36 am

I know, and I kind of hate that I'm contributing to it by going :twonk: BLAAUGH HERE IS WHY YOU SHOULD NOT LIKE A THING.

In my defense I'm being very incoherent in terms of whatever stance I'm taking from post to post.
Headless Horse
User avatar
The yoke is strictly ornamental
Faithful Students
Joined: May 23, 2011

Postby Pocket (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:44 am

Perpetual Lurker wrote:Here's what I'm never able to get. In cases like this, why is it that the subjective quality of the music always goes down the more educated you are on the subject? I mean, it almost seems like being taught all of these rules that must be adhered to makes it harder to enjoy music that doesn't do it perfectly, while those who don't know about those rules don't hear the problem, and thus enjoy the music more.

It's like that with pretty much every discipline. (See also: Kefkafloyd with fonts, and graphic design in general.) It's hard to know where true quality ends and mere snobbery begins.

I think everyone in that position eventually reaches a point (I know I have) where they notice all the people enjoying things that supposedly suck and wonder if there was ever such a thing as objective quality in the first place, or if it's all just people with narrow taste deciding that everything they don't like is objectively bad. And then some awful pop song comes on on the radio and they're like "Nope, this is definitely terrible. Superior taste affirmed." :vogue:
Orange Fluffy Sheep wrote:i am not ready for the transhumanist revolution to begin with my butt
Pocket
User avatar
I am shocked. Shocked. To find furry trash on my wholesome Pony forum.
Rainbow Racers
Joined: Sep 28, 2011
Location: In a bulding...

Postby MochaBean (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:46 am

It's the same thing with visual art. Once you learn thing about things like forms of symmetry, color theory, the rule of thirds, line quality, kerning, etc. you start to notice things that you didn't know about before. :pinkieshrug:

I'm glad I don't know nothin' bout this music ballyhoo :-D
MochaBean
User avatar
Take it from me, little buddy
Semper Pie
Joined: Mar 25, 2011

Postby Big Boss (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:46 am

Headless Horse wrote:Meter is this:

but SOFT! what LIGHT through YONder WINdow BREAKS

and why you don't say

BUT soft what LIGHT through yonDER winDOW BREAKS

or

i am HERE at THE Grand GALa
for it IS the BEST parTY
but the ONE thing IT was MISsing WAS a POny NAMED pinKIE


In other words it's the natural emphasis of syllables falling into a pleasing pattern. Sucky meter is when you have to emphasize the wrong syllables just to make the words fit the beats of the music.


It's kind of like asking somebody to emphasize the "in" of "In July." :v:
Big Boss
User avatar
:twonk:
Rarity's Roughnecks
Joined: Feb 14, 2011
Location: Mother Base
Gender: Male

Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:53 am

Perpetual Lurker wrote:Here's what I'm never able to get. In cases like this, why is it that the subjective quality of the music always goes down the more educated you are on the subject? I mean, it almost seems like being taught all of these rules that must be adhered to makes it harder to enjoy music that doesn't do it perfectly, while those who don't know about those rules don't hear the problem, and thus enjoy the music more.


I know, right? I'm a musician myself- I play Horn in my local community band, and bass guitar in a small group. And it is absolutely painful for me to listen to a high-school band, because there's inevitably intonation problems that they just simply can't solve and IT HURTS MY BRAIN AAAH :twonk:

Likewise, you know those first couple of weeks of American Idol, where the fun is listening to the terrible singers who think they have a chance? I can't watch. It drives me right up the wall to hear someone sing off-pitch (even though I can't sing myself).

Thankfully, while I enjoy musicals tremendously, I'm nowhere near as nerdy about lyrics and meter. If it sounds good, I'm going to be pretty much OK with it.

I suppose that's the difference here- say what you will about the words they were given to sing, the people performing did a bang-up job with it, and I can't find any fault with the actual performances. If you want to complain about the words on the page, go talk to the composer, I guess. :v:
ImageImage :fancyhat:
Wylie
User avatar
Rarity's Roughnecks
Joined: Jun 08, 2011
Gender: Male

Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:56 am

Love that the thread is finally moving... over lyrictalk. :gotcha:
Wayoshi
User avatar
Paper Fluttershy
Stare Masters
Joined: Oct 26, 2011
Location: Boston, MA
Gender: Male

Previous Next

Return to Pony Media Release Threads

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests