S07E09: Honest Apple

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S07E09: Honest Apple

Postby Wayoshi (?) » Wed May 10, 2017 3:25 pm

When Rarity asks Applejack to be a judge in a fashion show, Applejack learns that an opinion, however honest, can still be hurtful.


This thread is for discussion of the episode. This episode airs on Treehouse TV in Canada at 11:15 Eastern / 8:15 Pacific on Sunday, May 14!

Official preview clips and images are okay to post, as is speculation about the episode.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Wed May 10, 2017 8:04 pm

Image Applejack, would you like the fashion elite of Equestria to buy your apples?

:applejargh: Are you tryin' to bribe me?

:vogue: Bribe is such an ugly word, darling. I prefer to call it one hoof washes the other.
Image You can't deny the prize, it may never fulfill you.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed May 10, 2017 9:18 pm

:pinkieshrug: I have no clue what to expect from this episode. On one hand, that sounds like a terrible story idea. On the other, it's AJ and Rarity.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Wed May 10, 2017 9:40 pm

:aghast: "Uh Rarity...these are fuckin' gross!"
:cry:
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 3:35 pm

:gotcha: For years, Rarity has kept Starwberry Sunrise hidden, and safe. Waiting for the perfect moment to unleash her on an unsuspecting Applejack.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 3:41 pm

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2308099/

:fluttershock: Very meh episode. :fluttershock: The new writer seemed to barely know about the show when putting this together.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 3:45 pm

Rarity is best jammer. :vogue:

I thought the episode put its lesson across well. I can relate to AJ criticizing things she dosen't like but not liking criticism of things she does like, so I knew where she was coming from with the fashions, unkind as it was.

AJ, stop picking fights :bluh:

I guess Spike's torch for Rarity will never burn out. :here:

Nice cameos, especially Photo Finish. And it seems Maud has a cousin in fashion circles, albeit with a little more emotion. Lots of background pony eye candy. :ponydrugs:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 5:36 pm

home from lunch, time for ponies!
Spike is the cutest.
Pinkie Power Slide.
And right back into hammerspace.
"WHAT?!"
x2
20 hats. that's as many as two tens.
Wow, that stallions voice, holy hell.
HAH Pinkie fuckin' booed her countryism.
"Yer doublin' our workload!"
Keeses.
hahaha Disco ball, holy shit.
These disigners are adorable! I love their body designs!
Lilly's voice is great.
Starstreak's voice is great.
Inkie Rose's voice is adorable! I wanna hug them all!
AJ is in abject horror this whole time.
This ep is about how easy it is to crush the spirits of artists. So easy.
"I fucked up." - Rarity.
Rarity fucking jamming out. Nice.
Still with a semi Spanish flair on that guitar.
AJ getting aggressive.
I love Mondrian's pony designs.
"You don't mean that!"
hahahah I can't even.
Strawberry Sunrise is adorable!
Apple...Kill...
I love how Rarity knew one pony who hated apples and went straight there.
Direct lassoing, damn.
Frou Frou AJ is so pretty. :3
"I don't think that word means what you think it means."
Same song from s1!
Tie breaker AJ! Let's do it!
I see Jet Set!
Aww, they all won. :3
I love "everyone laughs" endings.
Good ass pone.
Last edited by Aramek on Sun May 14, 2017 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 5:37 pm

The true lesson here is that you should not hire unqualified personnel, especially on a personal and non-profit basis.

I expected at least that the fashion designers learn something from Applejack. But no... Status quo on the ridiculous fashion front.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 5:38 pm

adiwan wrote:The true lesson here is that you should not hire unqualified personnel, especially on a personal and non-profit basis.

I expected at least that the fashion designers learn something from Applejack. But no... Status quo on the ridiculous fashion front.

They did though, all the final designs were way less silly than originally planned, and thus looked better. My personal fave were Inky's stuff. They looked the closest to real, striking clothing.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 5:41 pm

Aramek wrote:They did though, all the final designs were way less silly than originally planned, and thus looked better. My personal fave were Inky's stuff. They looked the closest to real, striking clothing.

I did not notice that. They appeared very similar on the first glance.
Probably I need to rewatch the episode.

EDIT:
I made some screen shots from the stage version of the dresses and before Applejack did a critique on them
http://imgur.com/a/gRk4u
They are dead on the same.
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Postby Marimo (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 9:14 pm

At first I didn't care too much, but the more I think about it the more annoyed I got about how the episode handled its moral and Applejack. While knowing the difference between giving your opinion and being unnecessarily harsh is a good thing to know, in fact it's probably more relevant nowadays, I really think it could have benefited by the episode also giving more examples of how to actually give constructive criticism. Sometimes it's hard to know how to best tell someone if you see a flaw, so providing examples of how it's done well and can be helpful would've been good. Instead it feels like when it comes to tell someone your opinion on something you don't like or see flaws, the episode is stuck between either ponies being completely insensitive and even mean when giving their opinion or only being able to say, "Well they sure put in a lot of effort", which is not at all helpful in actually improving the product.

The only time Applejack's criticism was ever helpful was with Apple Bloom. Otherwise during the rest of the episode, when she's actually supposed to be a judge, all of her advice is an annoyance at best and almost cancelled the show at worst. The only thing I really note that was different in the show compared to when Applejack was giving advice was Star Streak's model changing her mane, but considering this is the only alteration and its only for one of the contestant, plus how they never really say it's because of Applejack's opinion, I'm not even sure if this was intended to be because of Applejack or if the animators just went with a different mane style when it came time to animating the model showing off on the runway. To add to that, none of the other judges seem to give advice or criticism either. Besides arguing over a belt, which seemed to just be a segway into more Applejack acting superior about her opinion, Hoity and Photo just gush over what the others are doing. Positive reinforcement is good and all, but it makes it look like these designers are either already ready to become a top designer, or they're going into the business without ever actually learning something new about their fashion and they're not going to be able to handle any actual criticism. And with Applejack not even being able to break the tie, it feels like she's completely pointless to the whole fashion show as a judge. Helper, sure, but she ended up being right about not being needed for the judge.

And I don't think this is intentional like others might, that the crew is trying to say don't criticize at all. I do think they just want people to be more respectful when giving their opinions, but they focused too much on one end of the spectrum that they forgot to cover the other side, so the execution feels unbalanced.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 9:30 pm

The set up just doesn't work for me on this episode.

Rarity wants an honest opinion for a fashion show. Fine.

But she's not asking Applejack to judge normal fashions. She's asking her to judge to wacky fashion that never see the light of day. There's absolutely zero practicality in making someone up to look like a disco ball.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 9:37 pm

This is the Best Thing:
Image
Peak pony, and indeed peak anything, has been achieved. If, overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out, I wouldn't be surprised.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 10:34 pm

It was fun and true to life. Also I am totally Applejack in this episode irl. :fluttersmith:

I try not to be but well yeah.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 11:04 pm

I still remember Mr. Feather Bangs yesterday. Justin Biepony. Had a catchy song. A gimmick character but a fun one. Today had a valley girl pony with the cringiest voice to match, a goth pony, and some other chic pony. Can't remember names at all. :fluttershock: And oh yeah, AJ literally lasso'd them at the end. :applejargh:

That guitar riff was also one of those out of nowhere gags that was just too cartoony for me. :facehoof:

I guess my point is basically this episode did nothing well. :pinkietoot:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 14, 2017 11:11 pm

Rarity immediately taking AJ to someone who hates apples reminded me of something I don't think I've ever mentioned on this board before.

Star Trek. :gotcha:

There's a great moment in Deep Space Nine when Worf gets robbed and goes to chew out Odo over lax security on the station. Odo has a list on a PADD ready to go of all the security breaches on the Enterprise and throws it in his face.
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Postby SpaceHowitzer (?) » Mon May 15, 2017 1:55 am

It got the lesson through but it was a weak episode for whats been a great season. AJ was trying to hard and Rarity was strangly obsessed with getting her involved.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon May 15, 2017 7:36 am

Niels Olof wrote:This is the Best Thing:
Image
Peak pony, and indeed peak anything, has been achieved. If, overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out, I wouldn't be surprised.


Haven't seen the ep - I'm burning my eyeballs out phone posting in the dark at 1 AM but I am in awe.
This tune immediately popped into my head
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Baby there ain't nobody better
So u should - never, ever go by the letter
U're so cool - Everything u do is success
Make the rules
Then break them all cuz u are the best


(Or just be making the best of this sloppy dog's breakfast of a situation. Damn Pinkie.)
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 15, 2017 8:51 am

Wayoshi wrote:http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2308099/

:fluttershock: Very meh episode. :fluttershock: The new writer seemed to barely know about the show when putting this together.


The Doctor wrote:The set up just doesn't work for me on this episode.

Rarity wants an honest opinion for a fashion show. Fine.

But she's not asking Applejack to judge normal fashions. She's asking her to judge to wacky fashion that never see the light of day. There's absolutely zero practicality in making someone up to look like a disco ball.


Yup and yup. Fashion and clothing aren't the same thing. Applejack could judge clothing, but only a maniac would ask her to judge fashion. Rarity is dumb for setting the whole thing up (and then failing to attempt to course-correct when things start very obviously going south) and AJ is dumb for not noticing that she's being a tactless asshole and embarrassing the shit out of Rarity.

Sometimes a new writer shows up and seems to get it right away, other times, not so much. This was... not so much.
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Mon May 15, 2017 1:12 pm

Will give it a rewatch, but as of now this is the first misstep of the season for me. 8 episodes was a great run though.

Let's hope the next week's mega controversial episode gets things back on track! :gotcha:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon May 15, 2017 1:56 pm

:eyebrow: What was the real reason you had me judge this fashion show, Rarity?

:wat: It's Mother's Day and I knew you'd be free.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue May 16, 2017 5:54 am

:starity: Miss Pommel is showing? I thought she was still making costumes!
Image ...and working for me.

Yeah, this was a strange one. Not completely out of character, but "the main characters blow up over an unnecessary misunderstanding" hasn't been their bread and butter for a while. Points for having studied up on the show through season 3 or so, but definitely a new writer not quite finding their sea legs.

I will say that it ends better than it starts. Some episodes don't manage to put a bow on their lessons, and while the premise is strange, the follow-through is decent.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Wed May 17, 2017 3:28 am

I liked the episode, one of the most enjoyable ones this season I think. It has that season one vibe to it. Rarity trashing on the guitar was unexpected and amazing.
:allears:

This entire episode felt like a metaphor for my internet life.
:-I
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Wed May 17, 2017 5:59 am

Sorry posted to spoiler thread :-P


Image
"I'm Inky Rose"

Image ...
Image Go, ahead Applejack - tell us what you think, dear!
Image Uhhh - I think her legs kept growin' long after her body stopped. It's a mighty odd look for a Pegasus.
Image I meant the outfit. Dear.
Image Uh, yeah. It looks like a kind of hoodie-vest dealie over a long sleeved t-shirt.
Image
"How's this?"
Image Now that's a hoodie vest with a tablecloth over it, making it a hoodie-vest-dress sorta thingy... don't really know what'cher goin' fer, missy.
:ohrarity:


Image

:applejargh: What in Sam Hill d'ya think yer doin'? Strawberries don't grow in bushes! That's not how it's supposed to work! It's just ... against nature!
:) Hey, Rarity! Applejack says the contest is going great! Good thing she's there, huh?
ImageYes, of course... Some of her thoughts are tough to swallow, but hopefully her candor will help the designers achieve the best designs possible.
Image Grrrr-r-reat! I love it when a plan comes together!
Image Or completely backfires, leaving you to once again dance around an awkward situation with old beloved friends... which is it?

Image
Image Yes...
:cheese: Glad to hear it!

Image

:applejargh: What in Sam Hill d'ya think yer doin'? Strawberries don't grow in bushes! That's not how it's supposed to work! It's just ... against nature!



I feel a little weird seeing Photo Finish over again and speaking since Season 1, though 'Green isn't Your Color' is still in my top 10. :modesty:

Image I, PHOTO FEENISH, HAVE RETURNED!
Image How lovely to see you aga-
Image KISS KISS KISS KISS
:starity:

:bluh: Dang. I know my family is a little weird, but it don't hold a candle to your crowd.
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Baby there ain't nobody better
So u should - never, ever go by the letter
U're so cool - Everything u do is success
Make the rules
Then break them all cuz u are the best


(Or just be making the best of this sloppy dog's breakfast of a situation. Damn Pinkie.)
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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Thu May 18, 2017 12:01 am

Not gonna lie, this was pretty meh.
Image Image
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sat May 20, 2017 10:26 pm

Niels Olof wrote:This is the Best Thing:
Image
Peak pony, and indeed peak anything, has been achieved. If, overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out, I wouldn't be surprised.

Shredding Rarity is the best! :-D
ImageImage
Avatar by Karzahnii, image used with permission.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:45 pm

Image Today on My Little Pony, we learned that you should always be honest...unless it hurts somepony else.

:vogue: And that it's possible to be too honest.

Image What exactly are you gettin' at, Rarity?

Image Strawberries.

:applejargh: You're gettin' me riled up!
Image You can't deny the prize, it may never fulfill you.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:22 am

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Gettin' mighty close to the "I will not use my hooves as hands" rule... :squintyjack:
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Spike...
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Watch the door.
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:hatte:
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"Applejack? Sure, I know her! I'm voiced by her!"
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Magic: still the best solution to every problem.
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This scene is framed so we can have a conversation with Big Mac, who never speaks. In fact, there are two men doing voices in this episode, yet most (all?) of the incidental stallions are voiced by the women. I guess neither of the guys were getting paid scale.
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:sweet: I'd do it! It sounds like fun gettin' to see all those pretty outfits!
:twasnothin: Well, you're the exception in our family, sugarcube. You know about that kind of stuff. I'd be as useful as a burr knot on a sapling tree.

I feel like parts of this episode are maybe overselling how unfashionable Applejack is, just a bit.

"No messin' with the Stetson!"
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Remember us?
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KISS! KISS!
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Photo Finish's eyes?!
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What Coco Miss Pommel has been up to since we last saw her.
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"Don't worry, she does this all the time!"
If you say so, Rarity.
Image
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:40 am

Hey, it's Fluttershy! I mean Lily Lace. Still voiced by Andrea Libman, though.
Image

Gaze into the future... of fashion. Starstreak is voiced by Michael Antonakos, who did voice work for Trollz but is mostly in live-action.
Image

Inky Rose is voiced by Caitriona Murphy, who's worked on Beyblade.
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"Have you tried... being happy instead?"
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[Fluttershy whimper]
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And then this happens.
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If darkness were brilliance, this would be the lightest dress of them all. That... that's a terrible metaphor.
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Sew the blue wire.
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:aghast:
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Y'all wanna play hat toss?
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:sillypony: Also, fashion stinks, and your careers are a lie!
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Like, gag me with a spoon!
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 11:57 am

Hi, Strawberry Sunrise!
Voiced by Maggie Blue O'Hara, who was Kitty Pryde in X-Men Evolution and a bunch of anime. And also Sweetheart and Daisy in My Little Pony Tales!
Image

"Oh, I'm sorry... that you actually bite into those tasteless, mealy, worm-filled things. Oooh!"
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"Mm-hmm. Doesn't feel so good, does it?"
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"No, it does not. It hurts."
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Mistakes were made.
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Let's solve this the same way as last episode -- with a kidnapping!
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I like the half-disassembled stage.
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Showtime! The pony on the left with the glasses was previously in "Canterlot Boutique." She's credited as "Architecture Pony."
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One more *hack* for the road.
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I don't think you're happy enough! I'll teach you to be happy!
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Thumpita-thumpita-thumpita-thumpita-thumpita
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And finally, an ugly dress.
Image
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:47 pm

Well, I at least found this one enjoyable. Maybe this sort of conflict is something we'd expect more from years past, but given that it's kind of what Rarity asked for, I can see how Applejack misunderstood how she ought to give feedback. I appreciate that the episode also had Applejack (literally) rounding up all the fashion ponies and actually spent a meaningful amount of time on setting things right between herself and them. It would've been nice if the episode could've also gotten into how to give constructive feedback, as Marimo talked about, but maybe that would've been going a bit too far for when the main story was about Applejack just not getting it in the first place.
SlateSlabrock wrote:And then this happens.
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This was hilarious and I'm sad that I briefly saw a GIF of it before I watched the episode, because otherwise I might've laughed hard enough to fall out of my chair.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:28 pm

Based on the number of tuning pegs, that's clearly a ukulele and not a guitar. :spike101:
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Jun 04, 2017 10:05 pm

I remember season 1 when these two ponies barely wanted to talk to each other.

:lol: "It's so lucky I had to be stalking past the bouWALKING past the boutique!"
• I like they don't even try to pretend scale or physical laws apply to Pinkie's guitar. Also, I hope we get to see the lost dog she found. :)
• Oh shit, are we gonna get Photo Finish wackiness? I know she never really went away and is y'know in the credits and all, but it's been a long time since she stole a scene. Or had a line.
:iiaaa: "My closet's nothing but 20 versions of this hat."
:byopinkie: BOOOOOO
• Apple Bloom's had signature headwear since day one! Now she's just getting greedy.
• Photo Finish has eyes, it's now canon.
• This is what happens when you volunteer ponies for things, Rarity! Shenanigans! Shenanigans happen!
• These contestants are the best.
• Rocking out Rarity came from nowhere, but pretty great. :pinkieshrug:
• Rarity has been keeping Strawberry Sunrise in her back pocket for years for this exact contingency. :vogue:
• I like that valley girl pony isn't written as a jerk, that would have been the obvious route.
• Sweetie Belle is going to wear Inky Rose creations as she attends black box experimental theater.
• I kind of like the awful dress!
Image
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jun 05, 2017 2:50 am

Maybe I'm inclined to like this episode because of my own experience in producing art.

Anyone who is kind enough to click my art thread in RCS knows how pointedly toony my style is, which I got to since that's what I liked about FiM's style and wanted to see more of. If I look at someone else's art, particuarly that of someone who perhaps favors a more realistic look, I could be like Applejack and diss those pictures just because I don't think they reflect and represent what I think is most important. I've learned that, after a certain point, it's most important for any criticism or commentary to be done with the goal of helping others better achieve their own vision, not directing their vision to be more like yours. I feel like that's the lesson that Applejack had to learn here.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:15 am

Fizzbuzz wrote: I've learned that, after a certain point, it's most important for any criticism or commentary to be done with the goal of helping others better achieve their own vision, not directing their vision to be more like yours. I feel like that's the lesson that Applejack had to learn here.

It's sort of a lesson Rarity needed to learn also. She didn't give Applejack any direction in her role, and while she tried to jump in and stop arguments before they got out of control, she kept saying, "It's fine, that's why you're here." Applejack wasn't being constructive, but Rarity needed to tell her that.
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Postby Applepie (?) » Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:57 pm

I also think the episode was meh.
Pinkie Pie: So, you see this here? This, um, this is um, a big, round room. It's known for its roundness, and bigness, and did I mention that it's round?
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:44 pm

New writer, shmoo writer; I think this episode "gets" pony just fine, and I include shreddin' Rarity in that assessment. Especially considering other aspects like AJ going completely red with rage a little later. This stuff is cartooniness that would have been totally at home in S1.

Which is what it seems this episode is unabashedly going for. It wants to be the intersection of Suited For Success and Green Isn't Your Color; it wants it in the worst way. And on top of that it sure does want to deep-dive into what honesty means in an Applejack context. Back in the long-longago when all we had to riff on was the first season, it was commonplace to note that Rainbow Dash and Applejack had Elements that were complementary to one another's personalities, not their own. In other words, whereas Rainbow Dash was all about loyalty when it comes to big epic plots, her personality is brutal honesty and tactlessness; but Applejack, while she serves plot-thread roles focused on honesty, really her thing personality-wise was being true to her family and her Appley traditions. Ever since then every Applejack-centric plot has somehow revolved around her being dishonest, or at least hiding the truth to spare others' feelings; she dissembles and evades and she puts on acts, quite the opposite of honesty. Even in her best outings, like Sisterhooves Social, where not only does she (obviously) pull a huge fakeout in the service of bringing Sweetie Belle and Rarity back together, she spends the whole episode up to that point trying to keep her own honest opinions under wraps so Sweetie doesn't go even further down the rabbit hole of "I want a different big sister". And then there's been any number of episodes since then that try harder and harder to bring actual honesty into the plot as a particular strength of Applejack's, such as Simple Ways and Leap of Faith. But it's always seemed like the show's never been quite sure what to do with what was conceived since the beginning as a character trait of Applejack's that doesn't really contribute much to the way she acts as a person.

So what I'm getting at is that the show has been firing episode after episode at the wall in ever more successful attempts to marry Applejack and Honesty, with a shotgun where necessary. And this is one of the first times where they've really come close to making it work, while still making it feel like a story that belongs as part of the show. Like, I can buy it that the thing Applejack has trouble with is understanding where constructive criticism is different from practical advice; where emotional support departs from mockery. She literally (I do not think that word means what you think it means) thinks her job is to point out what parts of fashion are utterly ridiculous, and she does—without picking up the subtle clues and hints that should tell her when she ought to be stamping a hoof on flagrant reality-ignoring silliness, as she does with Apple Bloom's hat, and when she ought to be giving a stamp of approval to a piece of creative work that has outgrown the need for her specialist's concerns. She doesn't distinguish between offering practical advice in a situation where ego has no place (again, as with Apple Bloom's hat), and another situation where ego is an admissible factor and personal expression trumps concerns like mass-production and marketability. Rarity bears most of the blame for what went wrong here, to be sure, in insisting that Applejack be a judge without any clear guidance on what's expected of her, but Applejack is the one who needs to learn the lesson.

I feel like the writer went to all efforts to learn the show, contrary to what's been said in the thread so far. I think the story feels like if anything it's made a better-than-average attempt to "get" pony. It captures the cartoonish randomness that we forget was often a part of S1, while at the same time making callbacks a-plenty (large ones, like Hoity Toity and Photo Finish, as well as more subtle ones, like the honesty theme). And it makes pop culture references of the kind that were so endearing way back when, like the constant throwing of shade at "literally" (and the Princess Bride riff to give it le mot juste). I think it hit the tone nearly right, the texture even closer, and while it was no great shakes from a dramatic standpoint and taught us nothing new about any of the characters involved, it used them to their full potential and believably played out areas where both Rarity and Applejack are able still—at this late stage—to come to a better understanding of their own personalities, their strengths, and where they might be let down by them.
Headless Horse
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