S06E25-26: To Where And Back Again

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Re: S06E25-26: To Where And Back Again

Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:36 am

Soft Snow wrote:How many changelings would it take to take down a Alicorn? Let me add up the math real quick... carry the three... Aha! After doing extensive calculations, the correct answer is approximately... just one.
:v:

Not that hard if you avoid the brute force method. Just have one changeling take the place of a lowly maid. Have that maid slip sleeping potion/pills in her tea before bed. Boom! One changeling took down a Alicorn. Just have said changeling take the place of Celestia and he could move her out of the castle without any suspicion.

:notgonnadoit: "What's in that princess-sized box?"

:dwi: "Official friendship business. Nothing to see here. Move along."

It's honestly a rather mote and trivial question to ask. The main cast was suppose to be removed from the equation for the B-team to get a chance to be heroes. The more time they gave to explaining that part the more they would have rushed the ending. I doesn't matter to the story if they were captured (again), preoccupied battling off a changeling invasion, held up in a in a foreign trade negotiation or just stuck in traffic. The story wasn't about them, it was about Trixie and the meager effort her friends did. There might be an episode in the future where the princesses have to save the day. Then you can complain why the main six was removed from that story as well. It would be like complaining that Applejack has to many apple related problems to deal with and they need something new for her to do. Applejack can never have enough apple related problems.


These would have been preferable. My issue isn't that they weren't the heroes in the episode, my issue is their role in the show has been reduced to basically being Princess Peach. I don't think it's wrong to expect a show that did an entire episode mocking the damsel in distress trope, to do better than using the damsel in distress trope.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:41 am

Can we not turn this thread into a repeat of the leak thread? Yes, the princesses (and this time, the mane 6) were removed from the picture offscreen to make room for the new characters to shine. This bothers some people and not others. Debating it wont change that.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:00 am

Pretty strong finale. I always love me some Discord and the character interactions between the new mane group was very on-point. It's possibly Starlight's best episode and it's cool to see her learn to lead in a way where she's not being a terrible person like the rest of her lessons.

Dig the low-key ending too, it's a nice change of pace. My one caveat was I would have liked some actual dialogue from the changelings at the end - I suppose it was a "show don't tell thing" and it got it across well, but the lack of extra perspective made it seem a little random when the changelings all just started going all care bear - made the moment a little more nonchalant than it should have been, I think.

Also a little odd that nobody chased after the weakened Chrysalis - or that the writers didn't write a compelling justification not too :ponder:

But ultimately the crux of the story worked and worked well. It was quite enjoyable.
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:33 am

Where was Bon-Bon and the agents of S.M.I.L.E. the whole time?!? :iiam:
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:37 am

This episode was dumb.

I've already weighed in about the garbage treatment of the princesses, so I'll instead harp on my other major craw-sticking point:

holy crud, hasbro. Why did you make the changelings stop looking the way they did when they became good? What is your major malfunction? Why do you think that in order to be good, things have to be pretty?

well, I know the reason, it's because they want to sell toys, and it's hard to sell 'ugly' toys to kids, but for pete's sake, this isn't a good moral!! being good on the inside doesn't mean you're pretty on the outside gosh darn. :seethe:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:30 am

Discord wrote:Also a little odd that nobody chased after the weakened Chrysalis - or that the writers didn't write a compelling justification not too :ponder:

But they are le tired. :effort:

iTunes version is up. Finally, some HD action after nobody bothered ripping this one. :consternation:

And holy moly, there's so much going on! First, how about some scenery...

The Castle of Friendship, nighttime. Apparently Trixie is camping in Twilight's front yard.
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Changeling territory starts... very abruptly. Did they come to Equestria on a meteor? Do the plants die without magic? Or are changelings so hungry they'll strip the whole countryside bare?
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The Hiiiiiive! :flail:
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Watch your step! There are no guard rails in The Hiiiiiive! :flail: :aghast:
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Some say M.C. Escher was inspired by a dream he had of The Hiiiiiiive! :flail: :aghast: :waugh:
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Don't forget to present your passport and medical authorization when entering The Hiiiiiive! :flail: :aghast: :waugh: Image Image Image Image
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:43 am

Tampering with the mail is a federal offense, even for a princess.
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Pony propaganda! Also, Our Town now has prettier cloaks and edible food.
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Dude, that is some harsh shredding!
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Princess Luna dispenses her wisdom, then moonwalks outta there.
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Can you spot the weirdest thing Starlight has in her room? That's right! A pair of glasses she's never worn, not even in the Christmas Carol episode.
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Hint, hint!
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:awesomedash:
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Trixie fears no guillotine.
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Pocket sand!
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Annnnd ninja run away quick as you please
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 10:57 am

Can you believe this, folks? Princess of Bad Advice right here.
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Dragon triiiiiibe
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2spoopy
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Even Trixie's stovepipe has a wizard's hat.
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WHAT. :angry:
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Meanwhile, at the Hall of Delinquents...
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This episode gets pretty violent in a lot of understated ways. :deflated:
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Oh boy, change the channel! The debates are on!
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Oh, then sneaky snake goes dancing, wiggling and a-hissing...
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Octopus are sometimes called "ninja of the sea." They fool their enemies by mimicking not just the color of their surroundings, but also the shape of the terrain.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:09 am

"Ow."
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Everything Trixie does is gold in this episode.
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"Wow, you got neato new wings!"
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Also, Starlight turns up her horn here when she's threatening Thorax. Reminds me of when Twilight went through like three coronas getting the Ursa Minor out of town.
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He turned the coach into a pumpkin. Classic Discord.
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Discord can blow away Starlight's magical aura.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:25 am

Gloomy Rube wrote:holy crud, hasbro. Why did you make the changelings stop looking the way they did when they became good? What is your major malfunction? Why do you think that in order to be good, things have to be pretty?

well, I know the reason, it's because they want to sell toys, and it's hard to sell 'ugly' toys to kids, but for pete's sake, this isn't a good moral!! being good on the inside doesn't mean you're pretty on the outside gosh darn. :seethe:

I thought the new changelings looked interesting. I mean, think of them in terms of how a butterfly looks vs. a caterpillar. As this metamorphosis represents the final adult stage in a butterfly's life, so too with the changelings, as they grow up and realize that friendship and love can't only be taken from others. Learning that sense of empathy IRL takes a fair amount of maturity, so I'm thus inclined to draw that comparison.

Besides, I bet it'll take a long time for Hasbro's toymakers to actually make any toys of the changelings as we saw them here, if they even do at all. :v:
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:32 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Besides, I bet it'll take a long time for Hasbro's toymakers to actually make any toys of the changelings as we saw them here, if they even do at all. :v:


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http://www.mlpmerch.com/2016/02/hasbro- ... rmony.html

It took for them over 3 seasons to make this. I guess the new and flashy ones will be in stores in 2019.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:49 am

Shut up! I can't hear myself think, maaan!
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Woooop-woop-woop-woop-woop!
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Gonna miss the classic changeling look.
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This scene was kinda dark. :saddershy:
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And then...
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That moment you realize there's a xenomorph in the vents.
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Lore note: Changelings can't immediately spot each other while disguised, but apparently their eyes are a giveaway.
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More Alien vibes.
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Oh boy! nomnomnomnomnomnom
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:00 pm

Earth! Fire! Wind! Water! HEART!
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Tell my friends I loved theeeeem!
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Sparkles.
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More sparkles.
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"Oh no, not again"
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I'm not sure how everyone else survived the whole chamber exploding.
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:shock: How did she clean up so quickly?!
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Watch out! They've got Flurry Heart! You don't stand a chance!

Also, Dash putting up her dukes in the background there. :v:
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Ha ha! Flying pigs! That Discord is a riot!
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Image :byopinkie:
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Postby adiwan (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:04 pm

I don't know if you noticed that but I'll share that anyway:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:09 pm

Sometimes it isn't Loss. I think this is one of those times.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:32 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:And holy moly, there's so much going on! First, how about some scenery...

The Castle of Friendship, nighttime. Apparently Trixie is camping in Twilight's front yard.
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From 2014:

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Inconvenient Trixie now canon.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:26 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I thought the new changelings looked interesting. I mean, think of them in terms of how a butterfly looks vs. a caterpillar. As this metamorphosis represents the final adult stage in a butterfly's life, so too with the changelings, as they grow up and realize that friendship and love can't only be taken from others. Learning that sense of empathy IRL takes a fair amount of maturity, so I'm thus inclined to draw that comparison.

Besides, I bet it'll take a long time for Hasbro's toymakers to actually make any toys of the changelings as we saw them here, if they even do at all. :v:


There was definitely that imagery, but I also feel like it wasn't just that the Changlings looked "ugly" or "evil." They have holes in their body. They look starved and unfulfilled. Also worth noting they now aren't uniform in color and look.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:05 pm


Suuuuper adorable. :3:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:09 pm

Anyone notice that, in the wide shot of Starlight's old town, her old cottage is gone and replaced with a tree? Thought that was an interesting detail.
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Postby Minty (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:20 pm

Old changeling design was cuter. :-/
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:48 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I thought the new changelings looked interesting. I mean, think of them in terms of how a butterfly looks vs. a caterpillar. As this metamorphosis represents the final adult stage in a butterfly's life, so too with the changelings, as they grow up and realize that friendship and love can't only be taken from others. Learning that sense of empathy IRL takes a fair amount of maturity, so I'm thus inclined to draw that comparison.

Besides, I bet it'll take a long time for Hasbro's toymakers to actually make any toys of the changelings as we saw them here, if they even do at all. :v:

I don't think anyone has qualms with this aspect. They look like completed bugponies and that makes sense.

The color scheme though is just abysmal and really offputting
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:26 pm

Comics had the right idea for good-Changelings.

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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:37 pm

That does look good. I would have been satisfied with just the holes in their legs filled in and perhaps the new eye design.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:11 pm

That picture with everyone ready to fight Chrysalis is gold. Especially with Flurry Heart ready to lay down justice.

And Discord is just standing there with his arms crossed :smug:

It does beg the question as to why they let her get away. Discord could get her at the very least...but I get the feeling once Fluttershy was okay he stopped caring too much.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:23 pm



my little pony my little pony la la la la
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 9:25 pm

A few other random things:

When "Fluttershy" and "Rainbow Dash" arrive to fetch the others, Fluttershy whispers, "We need Applejack for our friendship business!"

Interesting background music when Starlight shows up at Our Town in her dream the first time. I think it's a jaunty remix of another background tune they use occasionally.

Mr. Big wrote:Anyone notice that, in the wide shot of Starlight's old town, her old cottage is gone and replaced with a tree? Thought that was an interesting detail.

Huh, you're right.

(When does it turn into another magical macguffin tree?)
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:18 pm

The Doctor wrote:
These would have been preferable. My issue isn't that they weren't the heroes in the episode, my issue is their role in the show has been reduced to basically being Princess Peach. I don't think it's wrong to expect a show that did an entire episode mocking the damsel in distress trope, to do better than using the damsel in distress trope.


I thought about what you said and I came to a stunning revelation.
:ponder:

All the heroes in this two parter are reformed villains...
:starity:

That is so awesome!
:awesomedash:

As for the rewrite of the story I gave it some thought but I'll hide it in case it bothers anyone.
:ponynet:
Thinking from the angle that Celestia and Luna were out of reach at a dragon land diplomat summit or something, a few thing would logically be changed around for that to make sense in the story.

The first thing that would have to changed is the dream that Starlight had. Luna wouldn't have contacted her through a dream to warn her about the changelings because she wouldn't have known. Instead they could use that dream time she had to have her investigate her friend's strange behavior. That means the Chrissy Skype scene would have happened before she went to go get Trixie for help. She would need to know the changelings were there before she went to get help from Trixie. So those scenes would have to be reworked.

Thorax's appearance would be a little bit more challenging to explain. Because that would depend on what happened to Cadance off screen. Would she be at the summit as well or did she get captured? If she was at the summit, she wouldn't have known and therefore never sent Thorax to get help. If she got captured then that is just the same problem we are trying to fix. But that also asks why Thorax would go to Twilight instead of Celestia and Luna? I'm not saying it would be inconceivable that Thorax would go to twilight first, It is just what Twilight seemed like the second option to go too.

Lately, Discord wouldn't have been in this episode. It feels like when they got to the point where they realized Discord's magic didn't work in the Changeling Kingdom, Starlight would suggest to get Celestia instead of being forced to take charge. Discord would just poof them there to help. Discord doesn't care about diplomacy. But it would be interesting to see Celestia and Luna there unable to use their magic as well and just be essentially a pair of tall earth ponies running around with them.

But it makes me think that what would Chrysalis's ultimate goal be? To capture just the main six and then what? Rule Ponyville? Eventually Celestia and Luna would come back from their summit or where ever they went and would fight off her Changelings effortlessly. I always thought of Chrysalis as this cunning master planner that thought two steps ahead. But this way makes her seem like the writers made her grab the ball of short sighted stupidity. Would she try to set up an ambush or a trap or something when they return? Because that would just bring us back to the first problem of them being able to get captured by changelings.

Maybe they could be out of the story for other reason? I never read Harry Potter, how did Dumbledore keep getting left out of the action?
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:02 am

Soft Snow wrote:
I thought about what you said and I came to a stunning revelation.
:ponder:

All the heroes in this two parter are reformed villains...
:starity:

That is so awesome!
:awesomedash:

As for the rewrite of the story I gave it some thought but I'll hide it in case it bothers anyone.
:ponynet:
Thinking from the angle that Celestia and Luna were out of reach at a dragon land diplomat summit or something, a few thing would logically be changed around for that to make sense in the story.

The first thing that would have to changed is the dream that Starlight had. Luna wouldn't have contacted her through a dream to warn her about the changelings because she wouldn't have known. Instead they could use that dream time she had to have her investigate her friend's strange behavior. That means the Chrissy Skype scene would have happened before she went to go get Trixie for help. She would need to know the changelings were there before she went to get help from Trixie. So those scenes would have to be reworked.

Thorax's appearance would be a little bit more challenging to explain. Because that would depend on what happened to Cadance off screen. Would she be at the summit as well or did she get captured? If she was at the summit, she wouldn't have known and therefore never sent Thorax to get help. If she got captured then that is just the same problem we are trying to fix. But that also asks why Thorax would go to Twilight instead of Celestia and Luna? I'm not saying it would be inconceivable that Thorax would go to twilight first, It is just what Twilight seemed like the second option to go too.

Lately, Discord wouldn't have been in this episode. It feels like when they got to the point where they realized Discord's magic didn't work in the Changeling Kingdom, Starlight would suggest to get Celestia instead of being forced to take charge. Discord would just poof them there to help. Discord doesn't care about diplomacy. But it would be interesting to see Celestia and Luna there unable to use their magic as well and just be essentially a pair of tall earth ponies running around with them.

But it makes me think that what would Chrysalis's ultimate goal be? To capture just the main six and then what? Rule Ponyville? Eventually Celestia and Luna would come back from their summit or where ever they went and would fight off her Changelings effortlessly. I always thought of Chrysalis as this cunning master planner that thought two steps ahead. But this way makes her seem like the writers made her grab the ball of short sighted stupidity. Would she try to set up an ambush or a trap or something when they return? Because that would just bring us back to the first problem of them being able to get captured by changelings.

Maybe they could be out of the story for other reason? I never read Harry Potter, how did Dumbledore keep getting left out of the action?
:fluttershrug:


My idea for Cadance in the story would have been to simply have her and the Empire capture a changeling spy and learn the plan. Starlight would be suspicious, but it would be Thorax's arrival that confirms thing. Changes things around a little bit, but ultimately, the story continues as is, just with a few less captured Princesses. Cadance stayed behind to protect the empire and sent Thorax since, who else would be a better Changeling expert.

As for what Harry Potter did.

1st Book: The bad guy just forged a letter to get Dumbledore out of the castle for a few hours while he executed his plan.
2nd Book: Dumbledore was removed as Headmaster earlier in the book, and wasn't at the school.
3rd Book: Totally a time issue. The climax comes to them and there is literally no time to get help.
4th Book: Entire bad-guy plan is to magic Harry away from the school without anyone knowing. No help possible.
5th Book: We finally get the payoff, and Dumbledore beats the shit out of Voldemort.

And I won't spoil the last two for you in case you read them.

Lord of the Rings was the same way. Gandalf was often removed from the rest of the party. Only once did they ever do a "he was captured" thing. And his rescue came about due to his own cleverness, and one of his contemporaries. The Hobbits didn't need to march on Isengard to get him out.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 1:43 am

The Doctor wrote:
And as I've said before, they don't need to be in the episode. There are other ways to not write a character into the story. JK Rowling didn't have random Death Eater #8 kidnap Dumbledore at the end of every book in order to keep him out of the way.


This is a very good point, especially seeing as Celestia's basically Dumbledore.

Also, hi, guys. Went cold turkey from MLP for weeks and it turns out I didn't even care. But this dang horse thing keeps pulling me in. D:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:30 am

The Doctor wrote:
My idea for Cadance in the story would have been to simply have her and the Empire capture a changeling spy and learn the plan. Starlight would be suspicious, but it would be Thorax's arrival that confirms thing. Changes things around a little bit, but ultimately, the story continues as is, just with a few less captured Princesses. Cadance stayed behind to protect the empire and sent Thorax since, who else would be a better Changeling expert.

As for what Harry Potter did.

1st Book: The bad guy just forged a letter to get Dumbledore out of the castle for a few hours while he executed his plan.
2nd Book: Dumbledore was removed as Headmaster earlier in the book, and wasn't at the school.
3rd Book: Totally a time issue. The climax comes to them and there is literally no time to get help.
4th Book: Entire bad-guy plan is to magic Harry away from the school without anyone knowing. No help possible.
5th Book: We finally get the payoff, and Dumbledore beats the shit out of Voldemort.

And I won't spoil the last two for you in case you read them.

Lord of the Rings was the same way. Gandalf was often removed from the rest of the party. Only once did they ever do a "he was captured" thing. And his rescue came about due to his own cleverness, and one of his contemporaries. The Hobbits didn't need to march on Isengard to get him out.


:ponynet:

Jabber-jabber.

Celestia and Luna are off at a summit. Calance, and I guess Shining Armor too, is guarding the Empire. That is doable. But why only send Thorax? If she was captured and didn't have time it would explain why Thorax went alone. I would like to imagine a threat as big as Chrysalis somepony would send an army after her. The army thing is more wishful thinking, when what I think should have happened.
:modesty:

But what to do about Discord?

If Starlight had other leadership options then she would go after them instead. That is how she was set up in the episode. Do you think we would have to retweek her character a bit? To make it so she is more eager to take the lead so she decides to go rescue them herself without trying to get the others?

Wait, was Celestia kidnapped during Return to Harmony or was she just standing around helpless?

And wasn't Luna actually asleep during the first changeling invasion?

Celestia wasn't really captured anymore then anyone else during the Tirek invasion either. I felt that was more of a revenge thing on his part.

The Plunder Vines screwed up their magic so they couldn't fight them off.

While they do get captured a lot, I'll give them credit for at least doing it in different ways. At least it is not a sack over the head deal every time.

Compared to Harry Potter I can see why just getting kidnapped every time seems a bit tiresome. But from what my friend tells me they have a lot of contrived plot devices that are used once and never again despite their clear usefulness. Something about having a potion of good luck that makes everything you do succeeded. It would seem like something like that would be the prefect cure all for any villainous schemed hatched against them.
:pinkieshrug:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:42 am

I thought a nice dramatic touch was Thorax hyperventilating. It really showed how nervous he was about being back in the hive.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 2:49 am

Something I noticed. In the second part, the only Mane 6 with lines were Twilight, Rainbow, and Fluttershy. The other three (and Spike) didn't speak at all.

That really shows just how much of a reduced role the mane 6 had with this two-parter. Very unusual for a finale.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:36 am

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 3:51 am

Daring Do wrote:But this dang horse thing keeps pulling me in. D:

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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 4:41 am

An accurate fandom metaphor.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:33 am

Congratulations you guys, you've successfully made me never want to think about Princess Celestia again


Anyway—I can't believe that nowhere else in either the last great big thread or this one nobody else has called attention to this:

SlateSlabrock wrote:This scene was kinda dark. :saddershy:
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This whole bit was MESSED. UP.

Like "throw rocks at your beloved tamed wild animal you've nursed back to health to make it think you hate it and want it to go away" levels of messed up. Remember how much psychoanalytical juice there was to be squeezed from the scene in Return of Harmony where Fluttershy confronts Discord in the maze, and she defeats his attempts at attacking her self-esteem by simply copping to being weak and helpless, such that he has no choice but to resort to mind control? Yeah. There is some shit going on here.


Also I can't believe everyone is so down on the nuChangelings. I think they're great. Maybe it's the colorblindness talking, but I don't have any problem with their color scheme; it's exactly what I'd imagine the perfected form of a mysterious race that lives on stolen emotions might look like, in a universe where horses are colored like cotton candy or have hair made of diamonds. My only issue is that they didn't even give Thorax a final farewell line, which to me says "we didn't want him to have the same voice he had before, since we earlier showed that the Mane 6 replacements had changeling voices when they changed forms, but we also forgot to hire another voice actor and Big Jim sounded too goofy to do some pick-up takes".
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:10 am

Headless Horse wrote:Also I can't believe everyone is so down on the nuChangelings. I think they're great.


:skeptical:

Headless Horse wrote:Maybe it's the colorblindness talking, but


Oooooooh.
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but why would you post such a thing??
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:02 am

I have normal color vision and I think they look great too. Brightly colored insects aren't uncommon and brightly colored ponies are very, very common in Equestria, so I think their coloration fits in just fine with the metamorphosis metaphor being used here.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:16 am

With that said, here's the new changelings after being put through the deuteranopia simulator:
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They look more unified, I guess.
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:18 am

They look less like gummy bears.
"Why does life have to be so IRONIC?" :milkshake:
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