S07E10: A Royal Problem

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Re: S07E10: A Royal Problem

Postby Dexanth (?) » Thu May 25, 2017 1:31 am

Jeez, c'mon. It'd be a filly BREEZIE in there with our crazy scientist.

Boom.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Thu May 25, 2017 3:48 am

I just love this bit -

Image You ever notice how with some ponies when they say something's wrong, but you can tell something's definitely wrong?
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Image N-nooooooooooooooooo-heh

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Image That's basically what the princesses did when I said there was a friendship problem except they did it more you know *swish swish* 'regally'.


It's a couple of quick conversations. They aren't rushed, nothing seems contrived or forced; they're allowed to breathe. Twilight's no real help, and Glimmy is getting irritated with her.

Image I'm a forceful impulsive former villain that wants to do right, but holds her dark side at bay, and you're a fretful worrywart that catastrophizes things and has trouble trusting anything she doesn't do herself...

Image Do you think we're just an accident waiting to happen? Should we spend some time apart?

:shock: (If I give Starlight some free space, who knows what can go wrong? A friendship problem could go unsolved and Starlight would blame me, and, then I'd be an utter failure as a teacher, and Princess Celestia would say she's extremely disappointed and)
Image uh, Twilight, you're just staring in the distance mumbling to yourself and getting more and more worried ...
Image And then I'll tell her 'FINE! You can't just send me to any old Magic Kindergarden - it needs to be Princess Magic Kindergarden, so go ahead and enroll me at whereever Flurry Heart is going to school in a few years.

Image


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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sat May 27, 2017 9:57 pm

Sorry, sorry this episode is my unexpected jam :gotcha:

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Image Whoops! Silly you. So eager to go out on a map mission but you forgot your toothbrush! Silly!

Image No... that's not my toothbrush.

Image There's something oddly familiar about it though. Purple with grippy green-yellow ridges down the front and green knobs down the back.

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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 29, 2017 6:11 pm

I wonder what made the animator want to make that toothbrush Spike-colored. Did an ordinary toothbrush look too mundane, even just for that brief moment that we saw it? Is Spike a big enough deal up north that he's getting themed merch made in his likeness, or does he just want attention so much that he makes toothbrushes and gives them to friends?
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Postby adiwan (?) » Mon May 29, 2017 6:38 pm

Honestly this looks more like those fancy children toothbrushes to make them look less intimidating and motivate the children to brush the teeth regularly.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Mon May 29, 2017 7:31 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I wonder what made the animator want to make that toothbrush Spike-colored. Did an ordinary toothbrush look too mundane, even just for that brief moment that we saw it? Is Spike a big enough deal up north that he's getting themed merch made in his likeness, or does he just want attention so much that he makes toothbrushes and gives them to friends?


I think it's them being clever in making it obvious 'Twilight was inventing an excuse' - so she stole Spike's toothbrush, and that Spike-theme is the very subtle cue that that's what's going on :-P
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Postby Applepie (?) » Mon May 29, 2017 7:33 pm

In my favorite top 3 so far of S7.
Pinkie Pie: So, you see this here? This, um, this is um, a big, round room. It's known for its roundness, and bigness, and did I mention that it's round?
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon May 29, 2017 10:36 pm

Dexanth wrote:
I think it's them being clever in making it obvious 'Twilight was inventing an excuse' - so she stole Spike's toothbrush, and that Spike-theme is the very subtle cue that that's what's going on :-P


*friendship map starts flashing*

:shock: Oh my gosh oh my gosh, Starlight! You've solved it!
Image Woah! If I turn up right this second, they'll think I've been waiting by the map all day.
:spoiler: Which I have, but that's none of their business.
Image I need an alibi ... alibi ... alibi ... alibi ...
Image *yawwwn* Twilight I'm just about to head to bed - uh - hey you know we're almost out of toothpaste.
Image Next time you're shopping can you get some of the blue sparkly kind that looks like it has gems in-
Image PERFECT!!!!!
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~*FLASH*~
Image Snatched it right out of my claw...
Image What kind of pony just grabs a toothbrush - a friend's toothbrush - and just teleports off?
:no: I don't care what you're going to do with it; I don't want it back!
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:01 pm

Image Today, we learned that the best way to understand somepony else can be to spend a day (or night) in thier hooves.

:unenthused: And that my sister should know about my duties after performing them for a thousand years.

Image No need to get into that, Luna...

Still my favorite so far this season. I'll take pancake making Celly over ponies groveling at her feet (Lesson Zero) Celly any day. Image
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:05 pm

That was some top tier pony. Wayyy better than I expected it to be based on the description. I can't decide whether this episode or Parental Glideance is my favorite of the season so far. :awesomedash:

I love how Starlight has solidified herself as a pony that doesn't take shit from anyone, even princesses. Also, we are severely lacking in Starlight smilies on the forums. :glare:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:43 pm

Octavia wrote:Also, we are severely lacking in Starlight smilies on the forums. :glare:

I've made a few. Probably a few more after this episode as well.

And it was a good episode. I'm not sure Starlight should be encouraged to "go with her gut" more than she already does, but as a princess episode, this was pretty fun.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:00 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:I've made a few. Probably a few more after this episode as well.

And it was a good episode. I'm not sure Starlight should be encouraged to "go with her gut" more than she already does, but as a princess episode, this was pretty fun.


I had problems with Celestia and Luna being a bit too stupid in this episode, but really my big problem is Starlight still forcing her will upon others. I mean, there's only one other character in this show who constantly lashes out at others with magic when things don't go her way.

And that character is a toddler who can't talk yet.
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sat Jun 10, 2017 6:41 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I wonder what made the animator want to make that toothbrush Spike-colored. Did an ordinary toothbrush look too mundane, even just for that brief moment that we saw it? Is Spike a big enough deal up north that he's getting themed merch made in his likeness, or does he just want attention so much that he makes toothbrushes and gives them to friends?


I thought the joke was that Twilight turned Spike into a toothbrush so he could spy on Starlight :-I
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Postby Rainbow Crash (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:50 am

PonyHag714 wrote:I'll take pancake making Celly over ponies groveling at her feet (Lesson Zero) Celly any day. Image

I don't know, I think this episode brought back the fear of authority the princesses can create that we haven't seen since season 1. Back then, everyone, even Twilight, was afraid to get on Celestia's bad side. That kind of got lost over the years with the main 6 getting closer to the princesses. I thought it was neat that they brought it back with an 'outsider' like Starlight.
Image I'd never flown like that before! The freedom was unlike anything I'd ever felt! The speed, the adrenaline, the wind in my mane! I liked it... a lot.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:28 am

While I like seeing the Princesses being portrayed as more relatable than in previous seasons, I have no problem with them keeping a touch of regal behaviour, as we saw when Starlight was talking to them and they started giving her the royal glare. Image
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:42 pm

Gueeeesss who's going on a friendship mission!
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Whooooo could it be? Image
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It's Starlight!
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Ha ha! Don't worry about Canterlot, the royal city, having trouble! Don't think about it! Definitely don't panic!
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Image No problems here, right?
:unenthused: Correct as usual, Uncle Friday.
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I'm sweeping my room for music boxes when I get home.
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Princess fail friendship?! That's unpossible!
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"You know how some ponies say nothing's wrong, but you can tell something's definitely wrong?"
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"Nnnnooooooooo?"
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Pancakes!
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*STAB*
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:00 pm

Lavender! It reminds me of a certain unicorn for some reason...
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So then I said, "Touring? More like boring!" Ahahaha!
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The flowers seem to wilt after Celestia passes by, and that's a familiar mural they're standing under. Symbolism!
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Luna's "'lo" in this scene wins most understated dialogue of the season.
Also, pineapple pancakes after the pineapple incident yesterday. Coincidence?
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I think I figured out the problem! It's you!
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Just calm down and we'll all--
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I spent a thousand years practicing this grin!
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Okay, let's just talk things out and--
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All right, screw it, I tried.
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Better to ask forgiveness than permission, right?
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Have we shown you the castle dungeons yet, Starlight?
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:08 pm

Image

Here we see the Starlight Glimmer in her natural habitat.
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We assure you that this is not a coup.
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Smile and wave!
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Ta-daaa!
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:party: Black Snooty! Black Snooty!
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We'll take our chances with the timberwolves!
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According to the credits, the mayor of Baltimare (Scott Underwood, a storyboard artist for Pinkie Pride and Feeling Pinkie Keen) and the mayor of Fillydelphia (Tony Alcantar)
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Aaaaand star wipe!
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:19 pm

Goodnight, moon!
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Oh yeah, nobody to talk to.
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The animators deserve some credit for this effect. Animated on ones, even.
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Uh oh, time for a nightmare.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:26 pm

Awwww dang, it's that pony!
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And this pony!
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Another unexpected twist!
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By the way, Celestia wears her crown behind her horn, while Daybreaker wears it in front.

DARK METAMORPHOSIS
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We get it, you're sad!
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BIFF! SOCK! POW!
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Meanwhile, back at the ranch,
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:starity:
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Awwww.
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Okay, Wonder Twin powers, activate!
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Daybreaker pulls a Cheshire Cat when she's defeated.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:34 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:We get it, you're sad!
Image



:lol: For all my dislikes of this episode, Nichole Oliver's voice work on Daybreaker was not one of them. That line was amazing.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:38 pm

Image

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It's a piece of cake...
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...to bake a pretty panc--HURK
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Starlight's map pager has eight stars. You may now debate what this means compared to Twilight's cutie mark.
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HELLO I HEARD THERE WERE PANCAKES
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Don't forget to brush after every meal!
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Heaven forbid we neglect our battle against gingivitis!
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And now for the pop quiz!
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Oh also I might've started a war okay bye! Luna, awaaaay!
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 2:50 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:
Oh also I might've started a war okay bye! Luna, awaaaay!
Image


And I do like how it ends on a reverse of the exact same joke from the Luna Micro. :smirk:

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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:25 pm

The Doctor wrote:
And I do like how it ends on a reverse of the exact same joke from the Luna Micro. :smirk:

Image


And they did resolve that better.

"You're fully capable of ruling any time of the day or night" instead of "Haha, get in your own little corner and stay there" like we got in this episode :-I
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:28 pm

Gloomy Rube wrote:
And they did resolve that better.

"You're fully capable of ruling any time of the day or night" instead of "Haha, get in your own little corner and stay there" like we got in this episode :-I


Well, the conflict was more grounded in the comic. It was "I think your job is easy" vs "I have no clue what you do".



SlateSlabrock wrote:
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Also, pineapple pancakes after the pineapple incident yesterday. Coincidence?
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:3: OK, I'll add that to my list of little things I liked about the episode, because that's just adorable that Celestia would try new Pancakes.
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:35 pm

The Doctor wrote:
Well, the conflict was more grounded in the comic. It was "I think your job is easy" vs "I have no clue what you do".



Yeah, exactly. They kinda overblew the problem... a lot in this episode. :v: I mean, part of that was just Starlight overreacting as her teacher has taught her to, but it was really strange how much they forced the conflict in this one. I honestly have trouble seeing Luna as being THIS GRUMPY :-I
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:57 pm

Gloomy Rube wrote:Yeah, exactly. They kinda overblew the problem... a lot in this episode. :v: I mean, part of that was just Starlight overreacting as her teacher has taught her to, but it was really strange how much they forced the conflict in this one. I honestly have trouble seeing Luna as being THIS GRUMPY :-I



Just a little scale back on the extreme nature of the conflict would have done wonders in my enjoyment of the episode. The initial conflict, that both of them were too busy to notice the little things the other was doing to help them out, would have worked wonders. Change it from "I have no clue what you do" to "I don't think you understand how swamped I've been recently". Give them some ownership and recognition of the problem.

But, it is what it is. I just hope it doesn't take seven more seasons for them to get another episode (or Celestia to finally get a focus episode). And maybe they can solve a problem rather than be the problem.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Jun 12, 2017 3:44 am

Watching ponies after dark feels strange. Like maybe there'll be swearin'. :speakest:

• Ha, starting right in with the premise. Awesome. :lol: And as usual Twilight doesn't get to visit the cool place.
• ... again. :-I
• Hey, you know what always works great for Luna? Repressing emotions!
• At least Starlight gets a sweet suite out of the deal.
• Holy smoke, Tara Strong is just killing it today. Killing. It.
• Passive-aggressive pancakes are the best pancakes.
• Princess Luna's not a morning person?! Who could have guessed?!?
• So far I'm loving the pacing. No unnecessary dialogue, every scene moves the story forward, it's great.
• Ha, the Starlight/Twilight dynamic is just the best.
:unenthused: hi
• When Luna gets snippy she turns into Rarity, apparently, so I'm going to call this an honorary Rarity episode as well.
• Princess argument is amazing. And of course Starlight is going to be the no-bullshit one; the do-er; the pony with the courage and vision to step in and make it all worse.
• Did Starlight do that spell on purpose?!
• The genius of this episode is that "characters switch jobs to learn how hard the other has it" is like the oldest trope in sitcoms, yet somehow it's feeling fresh and fun here.
• However this turns out, there's a dungeon with Starlight's name on it.
• Oh god, Luna is living every introvert's nightmare.
• Nightmare Moon would have solved this problem by banning schools entirely. :moonie:
• Well now surely Celestia already has 1000 years of experience raising the moon. Or maybe she outsourced it to other unicorns.
• It's cool that the princesses' magic swapped colors too.
•The dream scene is great and not just because of Daybreaker (who is awesome). It's because it immediately gets Starlight and her own issues back into the story. It's efficient storytelling, it's great.
• Celestia is unusually wacky this episode; I wonder if she just makes a point to act extra regal for Twilight because she knows she expects it.
• Actually I take back what I said earlier; this is not the usual trope. Luna learns how hard Celestia's job is, but Celestia is learning something different, because her issue is different. Cool.
• Ha, the classic losing your teeth dream. I guess ponies wouldn't have nightmares where they're in public naked because whatever, they're horses. :pinkieshrug:
:speakest: "On second thought, can you take me back to my tooth dream? This is really fucked up."
• Goodbye, Daybreaker. You had some cool-ass pupils.

AMAZING.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Wed Jun 14, 2017 5:26 pm

:cooliebelle: "I outgrew pancake faces months ago."

:ohrarity:
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Postby Bremen (?) » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:42 am

Finally catching up on episodes.

First off, I give Starlight more of a pass for her actions here. It was definitely a bad thing to do without consent, but, well, she was watching her plan (that Twilight had warned her against) backfire in a way that she fully expected might lead to the destruction of Equestria. "Full blown panic" doesn't even begin to cut it. Backsliding to bad habits is perhaps a little understandable, if still an indication she has room for improvement.

As for Celestia and Luna... it's long been a popular idea that they're wise and godlike, but I'm not sure how much of that was ever really canon and how much was fan interpretation (though somewhat justified, for ageless beings with immense power, and at least in Celestia's case a thousand years of experience). Particularly in S7 they've been portrayed as just as fallible and insecure as everyone else, which flies in the face of the predominant fan interpretations, but isn't necessarily retcon either. While I was quite fond of the wise and godlike Celestia myself, I don't want to hold that against the show. I do take some solace in the fact that, while it was Starlight's dream, Daybreaker did imply Celestia has a world of cardboard problem :smirk:

As for the episode itself, I thought it was great. The royal sisters were 100% awesome, and Starlight switching the cutie marks then skipping to Twilight hyperventilating had me in stitches.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:49 am

"Celestia version of Nightmare Moon" is like one of the staples of fanfiction dating back to, like, day one. I don't know why I feel like I should be surprised that the show finally ended up putting it in, and managing to come up with a name for her that's different from any of the ones that fans came up with, implying that the writers carefully went out and made sure to catalog all the names people have used over the years and pointedly avoid using any of them, but here we are.

Anyway: *skims the long and spirited thread discussion* Lots to digest about whether this one works as a Celestia story or a Luna story or a Celestia/Luna story or whether Starlight's role was good. But also there's how it continues to evolve our understanding of the mythos of the show, and not in a very clean way.

I guess reading this episode means we have to kinda do one of those tiresome "death of the author" sort of things where we acknowledge that the episode has some irreconcilable differences with what has come before in the show, and we have to just make our peace with it. Ignore context, ignore subtext, and just look at what's on the screen before us. Either that or we have to tie ourselves in knots over whether Celestia doing Luna's job and not understanding what it entails implies that she didn't actually do any of it during the 1000 years or whatever. It seems clear enough to me that the writers simply didn't think that part of it through that carefully. But do we try to reconcile that with what came before? I guess we can, but I don't personally find it very satisfying. I'd rather just accept that it doesn't fit perfectly, and we can go with it as-is anyway.

It's annoying to have to do that, because since the beginning it's seemed like this show has always made a game attempt at least at maintaining a consistent overarching story and mythology. The characters grow and change over the episodes; it's never been purely episodic, and that's always been one of the innovative things about it, in a world full of cartoons where any episode can take place in complete isolation from every other episode. Pony episodes are often totally interchangeable, aside from a few details like who has wings or whatever. But to bring up the example of Home Movies again, that's another show with clear linear continuity in its overall structure that undermines itself pretty egregiously a few times, mostly in the case of characterizations: specifically Fenton and his mother, and Paula's parents (who not only get new personalities, but also completely different character designs for some unknown reason). And yet the show doesn't suffer from it; in fact, these wildly discontinuous characters are some of the most well-rounded and fun personalities anywhere, even though they completely change halfway through for no obvious reason.

My point is that Pony doesn't necessarily lose points for doing this too, not for playing fast and loose with the continuity of the show's setting, and not for doing what it does with the princesses' characters here—amping up their "casual" demeanor and downplaying the royal awe in which ponies like Starlight really ought to be holding them, and having the two sisters doing menial tasks like cooking and hanging up lavender while visiting dignitaries completely ignore them (whereas in previous years we might have expected those dignitaries to cower quivering before their god-queens at all times). It does feel a bit jarring, but ... it also makes for a fun story. Regardless of how many questions it might raise—or whether we can convince ourselves that the small bits of development we've seen in them in eps like Slice of Life have led them cleanly to the point of making goofy pancake breakfasts and sulkily eating banana peels at each other.

And I think the main reason I feel this way (that I don't mind what they've done) is that it feels like the writers have moved the show to a place where they now have more opportunities to do Celestia/Luna episodes. I feel like one of the problems some people have had with eps like this is that it feels like the writers do them grudgingly; that they will only reluctantly deign to force out a Celestia ep after hearing the clamoring of fans, and if this outing sucks, well too bad, because we're never gonna get another one. Well, I don't think we can guarantee that either. I think this makes it easier for them to come up with comedy stories for funny cartoon horses. They probably (in my mind at least) haven't done Celestia episodes not because they don't want to, but because they straight up can't come up with good stories for her! And as for Luna, they can only do so much with her since already retconning her like twice—once in the Pilot -> Lesson Zero transition, and then in every Luna appearance since LZ, where she's much more subdued and "normal" than the crazy out-of-touch ancient royal weirdo that appeared for Halloween on a haunted bat-pony-drawn hearse-carriage and freaked everyone out with her Royal Canterlot Voice. Since then she's shown up in dreams, helping main cast members here and there, but I feel like the writers have wrung that towel dry too... and this is what they had to do to take her in a new direction.

So what I'm saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if we do get more Celestia and/or Luna episodes in the future, now that the dam has been breached and we have a new paradigm for them. Yeah they're more casual characters now, they're more "normal" and their royal/supernatural mystique is well and truly shattered. But as long as that mystique remained intact the opportunities to write anything with them either involved them a) getting kidnapped/nerfed, or b) omnipotently saving the day, and either option gets exhausted after like one use. This show, if it's good at anything, it's good at developing new content not through epic continuity and storytelling, but through rich characterization and personalities interacting with one another to produce moral lessons and demonstrations of social graces. That's what the show is all about, after all. And now we've got two new characters with distinctive personalities who can act like humans do, not like demigods. And in the long run I think the writers are going to be a lot more comfortable exploring what those characters can do than they would have been otherwise.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:13 pm

I agree. Let's hope Celly and Luna take play a bigger part in future stories.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:27 pm

I think two things to HH comment -

1. Celestia raised the moon for 1,000 years, but it's at least stated there that she has no ability to wield Dream Magic. If we accept that as a premise, it explains a lot - there just was no Warden of Dreams during Luna's exile, and that's where Sunbutt falls in being able to handle things.

2. Granted, I am biased, but I think God-Queen had story potential, they just never really thought about it.

...That said I do love the idea that it's not so much Celestia is casual in general, but rather both she and Luna get really casual and catty around one another.
:milkshake: Image ImageImage Image
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:59 pm

Random thing I wanted to comment on was:

Image

Using magic to show the stack of pancakes to us by tilting the whole thing, drippy syrup and loose fruit and all, toward the viewer.

That's, like, one of those things that would just be second nature to us if we lived in that universe, and it takes some imagination to think of it.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:03 pm

Well, second nature to 33% of the population, at least.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:32 pm

Celly's just thoughtful that way Image
:speakest: The fun has been doubled!
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:37 pm

Dexanth wrote:1. Celestia raised the moon for 1,000 years, but it's at least stated there that she has no ability to wield Dream Magic. If we accept that as a premise, it explains a lot - there just was no Warden of Dreams during Luna's exile, and that's where Sunbutt falls in being able to handle things.


I have headcanon regarding the dream things.

1. I think Luna is full of it saying she's the only one that can do it. 1. We've never seen magic limited to one pony, all it takes is learning and practice. 2. At the end of "Magic Sheep" we see everyone in Ponyville join in to defeat the Tantabus, so the whole "Only I have power here" is bogus. We also see Celestia helping out in one of the more recent comic issues. I think she just didn't want to admit anything to Celestia and wanted to keep her out of it.

2. THat being said, I don't think Celestia watched over dreams during the 1000 years. I don't think anyone did, even before Luna's banishment. I think the dream thing is something new, something she (maybe with Celestia's help) came up with on her return as a way for her to engage her subjects at night so she would not feel unappreciated by them.
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