S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

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Re: S04E20: For Whom the Sweetie Belle Toils

Postby HuffyTheMagicDragon (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:31 pm

PictishBeast wrote:Why didn't I like this one? All the pieces were there: Rarity/Sweetie, continuity, ponies fighting, cute shit... But for whatever reason this never got off the ground for me. The whole thing felt weird and off-model and I can't put my finger on why.

The play felt off. Why is Sweetie putting on a show for adults, and why would they want to see it? The setting seemed off. Why is Sweetie sleeping at Rarity's, and not at her parents' house? The Sapphire Shores mansion felt off. Something about the structure and the earpiece guard at the entrance felt like a weird import. The flashbacks felt off. Too much explanation, not enough emotion. Luna felt off. She didn't have her archaic speech or her melodrama, and came across as stiff and clinical.

None of this stuff is bad, necessarily -- it's a good thing when pony tries something new, right? On paper most of those things sound fine. But man, almost nothing in this episode jelled with me. It was like an out-of-body pony-watching experience. It was like an episode of pony made by aliens using a set of magnetic poetry.

Frosthawk wrote:Finally got to watch this episode when it reran at 3:30 today on the Hub. I would say it's a great episode, but something just felt a teensy-bit off.

I was hoping this would be a lot like Sisterhooves Social, and to an extent it was, but it didn't quite reach that level. Another thing that was interesting was that, in SS, I was strongly sympathizing with Sweetie Bell, whereas in this episode I was totally feeling for Rarity. I actually thought that was an interesting little progression. In Sisterhooves Social, SB causes trouble with child-like innocence overall well-meaning-ness, which is what made me sympathize with her. Here she seems a lot more like an adolescent, which would naturally happen to a kid as they grow up - it's almost character growth, in a way. So while I think Sweetie Bell was waaayyyy ungrateful (I mean, I saw why she was mad, but come on), I think that was overall a good thing for her character and the episode.

I also loved the ending sequences - Sweetie Bell warming back up to Rarity was just so sweet to see, and it cast Rarity in such a good light. I also liked how the ending wasn't one final punchline like it usually is, but ended on a sweet moment. That almost seemed jarring at first, but that's just cause I'm so used to the Scooby Doo endings.

The kind of "off" factor in all of this was basically Luna. I'm still not too big on her "stalking children's dreams" trope, and in this episode it seemed particularly egregious. I guess she has nothing better to do? It just sort of gave the whole episode this Christmas Carol-esque mystical tone which I think distracted from the more slice-of-life sentiments this episode handled really well.

Good to know I wasn't the only one who had this "off" feeling about the episode. I liked it overall, but something about it just didn't feel quite "Pony." And that's strange for me. I think the slow "talkiness" and the unusual lack of humor, which a few others have mentioned, had a lot to do with it. But even the emotional moments didn't hit me like they usually do. Most of the emotional scenes took place in the dream world rather than the real world, and they were all so carefully explained and then neatly resolved that it detracted from them, I think. I just wasn't quite feeling this one.

But I also agree with both of you that Sapphire Shores was great. She was one of the highlights of the episode. Other good parts included the weirder, more far-out sections of the dream sequence, like cloud Rarity and the "future" sequence of Rarity totally losing it. If the rest of the dream had been slightly more abstract like this, leaving Sweetie Belle to interpret things more for herself, I think it would have worked better.

I still haven't re-watched this one, however, and everyone's saying it's better the second time, so I'll have to go try that.
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Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:15 pm

kefkafloyd wrote:I know Niels expressed interest in the RT for this episode, but who else wanted in?


If there's still room, can I take part in it? :modesty:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:31 pm

The Doctor wrote:This episode established that Luna's dream visits aren't limited to children though, as she visited Sapphire Shores dreams.


It was my reading that Princess Luna pulled the second version of the birthday party from Rarity’s memories. She has global access, and a Nightmare Moon on the throne would have been fearsome indeed.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:34 pm

Rarity's memories though - not her dreams - kinda stretches her abilities.

I did not enjoy Luna in SiP, yet I was fine with her here - probably because of the hands-off approach.
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Postby Shakedatbooty (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:44 pm

Will we ever see the pony of Pop actually Sing? :gonkity:
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Postby AlliterativeAxolotl (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:56 pm

It's all very vague and a bit weird. When did that whole business of Luna patrolling dreams start? Nobody seems to mind it, so is it something that was done by Celestia while Luna was banished, and Luna taking over feels natural for everyone? Is there - with creatures like wendigos which feed off hatred and other things like that - something monstrous that needs to be kept in check, something that gets stronger the more nightmares are around, or is it something the princesses just do to help out their subjects when they are having a bad time?

I really like the show's approach to worldbuilding, and episodes like this one overflow with it without being blatant or boring - every character treats things like this as normal, and nobody suddenly breaks out into lengthy exposition on why this is a thing and how it came to be (with the exception of Twilight or Pinkie, and even then it's played for comedy mostly). We get a short view of this magical world with weird rules and customs and then ponder what we've just watched.

And it gives the writers so much more freedom when it comes to new episode material. If they wanted, they could declare in one episode that Luna mostly watches over the Mane 6 and their closest relatives and friends, because they are such important people for the well-being of the entire kingdom, for example.

About the episode itself, I enjoyed it very much :allears:
Not much comedy, sometimes pretty heartbreaking almost. The birthday scene :cry:
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Postby Tears (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:58 pm

Maybe Luna is like Morpheus in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series, walking through her domain manifesting in millions of dreams at the same time.

She appeared in real life too, but maybe she chooses to help out kids whose instructional dreams will take place near the castle in Canterlot so she doesn't have to commute much :effort:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:00 pm

It was definitely a move to get Luna into episodes without breaking the mold. It seems they still want to do every episode about a Mane 6, Spike, or CMC.

I know some have said starting to go off to secondary characters is a bad sign they've run out of ideas, but let's be honest, a couple ideas this season have stunk. Let's go do that organic Celestia episode please. :)
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Postby AlliterativeAxolotl (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:13 pm

Tears wrote:Maybe Luna is like Morpheus in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series, walking through her domain manifesting in millions of dreams at the same time.


:speakest: Ah, you've met one of my many dream manifestations! They are running mostly automatic; all I have to do is prod somepony's subconscious a bit from afar, and here they go. I mean, stepping personally through every subject's dreams is a bit much, isn't it. I only interfere when things get really dangerous!

:amazed: So the Luna I was talking to in my dream... was myself?

:ohboy: I have a tiny princess in my head!

:speakest: You could say that, yes.

:smirk: It was really interesting, too! Especially when I saw things from Rarity's perspective! Or when I swam through Sapphire Shore's dreams!

:speakest: Wait, what? You should not be able to do that!

:pcstare: Sweetie Belle, you invaded the subconscious of your fellow ponies? Do you even realize what this means?

:sweetiefrown: I'm in big trouble?

:gotcha: Not at all! In fact, I think you are perfect material for...

:cooliebelle: DREAM PATROL :unenthused:

Wayoshi wrote:It was definitely a move to get Luna into episodes without breaking the mold. It seems they still want to do every episode about a Mane 6, Spike, or CMC.

I know some have said starting to go off to secondary characters is a bad sign they've run out of ideas, but let's be honest, a couple ideas this season have stunk. Let's go do that organic Celestia episode please. :)


I don't think we will get a Celestia episode this season :fluttersmith: But the comics have done a great job of fleshing out her character and giving her a lot of moments to shine, so that's okay :allears:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:24 pm

Certainly not this season, but I think there's a chance for next.
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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:38 pm

Of course the spirit animal of Sapphire Shores would be something that lives in the deep blue. :wink:

Might have been born in the MLP equivalent of Hawaii.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:58 pm

And just to extend on Princess Luna’s abilities, I always thought that the only way it made sense for Rainbow Dash to be exactly where she could rescue Scootaloo (considering she was sleeping with her ears plugged) was if she had been given directions (and a kick to send her flying in the right direction) in a dream from Princess Luna.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:05 pm

Wayoshi wrote:I know some have said starting to go off to secondary characters is a bad sign they've run out of ideas, but let's be honest, a couple ideas this season have stunk. Let's go do that organic Celestia episode please. :)

Celestia, Luna, and even Cadance and Shining Armor are big enough to where any of them could reasonably get an episode or two with no involvement from any of the 10 main characters. Outside of the royals, I suppose Big Mac and/or Cheerilee could also carry an episode (much as Big Mac starred in his two issues of the comics). I would only get worried about the gang running out of ideas if they start writing episodes heavily starring the background ponies.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:34 pm

I question if we'll ever get a Celestia episode. Looking back on season 3 and 4, I get the impression that Meghan sees Celestia as a tool that got Twilight Princesshood, and now really has no role in the story (this is all of course barring some surprise Celestia episode for episode 23). They took time this season for Luna and Cadance, yet Celestia has been absent since the season premier. Depending on what they do with the finale this season, I am not expecting much time from her at all. I know some have questioned if Nichole Oliver's acting gig has impacted that, but I don't really buy it as her character on LPS has still been one of the more focused of the pet characters.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:22 pm

HuffyTheMagicDragon wrote:Good to know I wasn't the only one who had this "off" feeling about the episode. I liked it overall, but something about it just didn't feel quite "Pony." And that's strange for me. I think the slow "talkiness" and the unusual lack of humor, which a few others have mentioned, had a lot to do with it. But even the emotional moments didn't hit me like they usually do.


Cool beans. You nailed my overall vibe on this episode and it's kind of reassuring to see somebody else experiencing the same thing. Not to take anything away from the people who loved this one! I can totally see why it's popular, the ingredients are tops. I just wasn't crazy about the dish.

Re: Luna, I'm not so much disappointed by the loss of the Royal Canterlot Voice as I am by the lack of a distinctly "Luna" personality. One thing that Luna Eclipsed did so well was to give the girl some real personality that, in the process, made her utterly distinct from her sister.

Forget the thees and thous, that's just window dressing. What we saw in Luna Eclipsed was someone who was impatient, imperious, insecure, caring, old-fashioned, well-meaning, and a badass. Celestia is more like "every pony's mom," warm and approachable despite her station, but Luna really feels like royalty.

And that's good! They should act differently. They're sisters, but they're also the literal embodiments of night and day. Plus don't forget Luna is an ex-supervillain.

But other than the comics, Luna hasn't really followed in that mold. I think it's a missed opportunity. Her lines at the end of this episode could just as easily been delivered by Celestia, and that's not good. (Imagine taking a Rarity line and giving it to Rainbow Dash.)

Even going back to Sleepless: "Face your fears, Scootaloo." Why not "Face your fears, young one?" Luna cares deeply about her subjects, but I doubt she cares about Scootaloo in particular. Having Sweetie call her "Luna" instead of "Princess Luna" also feels off-tone -- Luna is the regal, slightly distant one.

And okay, maybe I'm being too headcanon-y on her personality, but at least make her different from Celestia in more ways than just appearance and power set! Again going back to the main characters, everything about them -- line delivery, word choice, when they speak up and when they stay silent -- is unique to that character and that's a huge part of why this show works. A Luna appearance shouldn't just mean we get to check off the dreamwalking box, it should be a cool opportunity to show off a proud, kindhearted, I-have-decreed-it-to-be-so pony whose scenes could not star any other character.

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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:23 pm

I assume we're going to see Celestia in the Equestria Games episode/s. If they model them after the Olympics, Celestia would likely be the one to declare the Games open/closed.
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Postby AlliterativeAxolotl (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:28 pm

PonyHag714 wrote:I assume we're going to see Celestia in the Equestria Games episode/s. If they model them after the Olympics, Celestia would likely be the one to declare the Games open/closed.


I guess they will give that role to Cadance, with Celestia and Luna in the background. Just a feeling.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:45 pm

That could be. I was thinking in terms of the overall ruler doing it, but Cadence certainly has a good case for doing it.

MHW: And now, to open the Equestria Games...heh...Princess Celestia!

:gotcha: I declare the Equestria Games open! See you in Season 5!
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Postby ReallyLikeHerMane (?) » Tue Mar 25, 2014 11:56 pm

AlliterativeAxolotl wrote:It's all very vague and a bit weird. When did that whole business of Luna patrolling dreams start? Nobody seems to mind it, so is it something that was done by Celestia while Luna was banished, and Luna taking over feels natural for everyone? Is there - with creatures like wendigos which feed off hatred and other things like that - something monstrous that needs to be kept in check, something that gets stronger the more nightmares are around, or is it something the princesses just do to help out their subjects when they are having a bad time?

I really like the show's approach to worldbuilding, and episodes like this one overflow with it without being blatant or boring - every character treats things like this as normal, and nobody suddenly breaks out into lengthy exposition on why this is a thing and how it came to be (with the exception of Twilight or Pinkie, and even then it's played for comedy mostly). We get a short view of this magical world with weird rules and customs and then ponder what we've just watched.

And it gives the writers so much more freedom when it comes to new episode material. If they wanted, they could declare in one episode that Luna mostly watches over the Mane 6 and their closest relatives and friends, because they are such important people for the well-being of the entire kingdom, for example.

About the episode itself, I enjoyed it very much :allears:
Not much comedy, sometimes pretty heartbreaking almost. The birthday scene :cry:


The bit that made me go !
Was that Luna felt the need to shield sweetie belle from her cloud-sisters electric attack. She also previously destroyed the headless pony. Now... *puts on tinfoil headcanon hat*
Was that because if Sweetie died in the dream she'd wake up, or is it suggesting something more sinister?

Maybe there isn't some kind of demon trolling around the dreams that necessitates this. Maybe in the ponyverse, your dreams really can kill you. We've already seen the power of belief and desires is pretty directly correlated to real power, as are emotions and such.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:00 am

AlliterativeAxolotl wrote:It's all very vague and a bit weird. When did that whole business of Luna patrolling dreams start? Nobody seems to mind it, so is it something that was done by Celestia while Luna was banished, and Luna taking over feels natural for everyone? Is there - with creatures like wendigos which feed off hatred and other things like that - something monstrous that needs to be kept in check, something that gets stronger the more nightmares are around, or is it something the princesses just do to help out their subjects when they are having a bad time?

I really like the show's approach to worldbuilding, and episodes like this one overflow with it without being blatant or boring - every character treats things like this as normal, and nobody suddenly breaks out into lengthy exposition on why this is a thing and how it came to be (with the exception of Twilight or Pinkie, and even then it's played for comedy mostly). We get a short view of this magical world with weird rules and customs and then ponder what we've just watched.

And it gives the writers so much more freedom when it comes to new episode material. If they wanted, they could declare in one episode that Luna mostly watches over the Mane 6 and their closest relatives and friends, because they are such important people for the well-being of the entire kingdom, for example.

About the episode itself, I enjoyed it very much :allears:
Not much comedy, sometimes pretty heartbreaking almost. The birthday scene :cry:


I really get the feeling it was something done after Luna returned. Something her and Celestia worked on when she got back as a way for her to interact with her subjects at night. Had she had this ability since before she was banished, it's hard to understand why she would feel neglected and jealous if she had that level of contact with her subjects.
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Postby AlliterativeAxolotl (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:07 am

The Doctor wrote:I really get the feeling it was something done after Luna returned. Something her and Celestia worked on when she got back as a way for her to interact with her subjects at night. Had she had this ability since before she was banished, it's hard to understand why she would feel neglected and jealous if she had that level of contact with her subjects.


I was thinking the same, it's just that both Scootaloo and Sweetie Belle were not very surprised to see her, so maybe it has always been her mission to guard the dreams of ponies. Maybe Pre-Banishment Luna thought it wasn't enough, and it wasn't "real" power compared to that of Celestia, who ruled during the day when all ponies were productive in the real world, so to speak. Nowadays Luna understands better what it means to be a competent ruler, so she might understand that dreams/our subconscious may have just as much weight as what we do while being awake :pinkieshrug:

But as said, it's vague, and certainly a story device we will see more often, which is a good thing.
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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:46 am

Niels Olof wrote:
It was my reading that Princess Luna pulled the second version of the birthday party from Rarity’s memories. She has global access, and a Nightmare Moon on the throne would have been fearsome indeed.


Or in another reasonable explanation, Sweetie's outburst left Rarity going over the events in HER dreams that night, giving Luna a simple way to show the truth. After all, she's out cold as well during Sweetie's dreamtime.
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Postby ReallyLikeHerMane (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:55 am

AlliterativeAxolotl wrote:
I was thinking the same, it's just that both Scootaloo and Sweetie Belle were not very surprised to see her, so maybe it has always been her mission to guard the dreams of ponies. Maybe Pre-Banishment Luna thought it wasn't enough, and it wasn't "real" power compared to that of Celestia, who ruled during the day when all ponies were productive in the real world, so to speak. Nowadays Luna understands better what it means to be a competent ruler, so she might understand that dreams/our subconscious may have just as much weight as what we do while being awake :pinkieshrug:

But as said, it's vague, and certainly a story device we will see more often, which is a good thing.


Let's not forget, Scootaloo had to be told that Luna was doing this shtick now, so it's unlikely there was a public announcement (though not impossible.)

Scootaloo is Sweeties friend. Sweetie didn't have to be told.
Either Scootaloo was one of the first before it became widely known, or Scootaloo told Sweetie about Luna.
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Postby Dal (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:42 am

So far Luna has been involved in saving Scootloo while having Rainbow Dash becoming a sister to her, and saving Rarity from a terrible fate. Both of which helps keep the mane six on the path Celestia (and now Luna) have seemingly set for them. Considering that, and what this season finale holds, it makes sense that Luna would pay special attention to their dreams and the dreams of the ponies important to them.
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Postby Amethyst_Gem (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:35 am

Dal wrote: and saving Rarity from a terrible fate.


And saving Sweetie Belle from walking down the same broken path she herself trod.
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Which is a terrible fate, too. :gotcha:
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Postby Pocket (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:57 am

Venusy wrote:It's interesting, when you think of how the acclimatization period from Nightmare Moon as figure of myth and legend to Princess Luna regularly visiting dreams must have gone. Must have been weird, but fairly short.

:speakest: I am the Princess of the Night. Thus it is my duty to come into your dreams.
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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:58 am

AlliterativeAxolotl wrote:Not much comedy, sometimes pretty heartbreaking almost. The birthday scene :cry:


You mean the flashback that had the 1-frame faceplant pulled straight out of Family Guy?
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Postby Mr_Peaches (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:25 am

I find it fascinating how quickly we understand why Luna does what she does. As if we already knew. Because we did know. We know why Luna needs to guard against the nightmares. The nightmares have a face. That face is no face.

Oh my lovelies... did you forget?

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Nightmares? Oh my dears, that's merely how it *starts.* Already it's spreading out, the creeper vine wrapped around your brainstem and growing down through space and time. We're helping it to spread. Sometimes we don't need to help it. Sometimes it's just there. The number of universes it's infected grows daily. The void roots continue their patient dance, wrapping around the sphere of realities, its delicate outstretched arms terrifying and comforting.

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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:27 am

:speakest: Fear not, fair citizen! Your dream is being visited upon by the Princess of The Night, Luna!
:speakest: If you, or anyone you know has any concerns about the quality of your dream or sleep in general, please being them to me, post haste!

:wantitneedit:

:unenthused: I appear to have stepped into the dream of a baby. Lovely.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:09 am

I'd imagine a dream like that to be a bunch of colours. If nothing else, Luna could watch the "scenery". :v:
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Postby Peregrine (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 8:08 am

Tears wrote:Maybe Luna is like Morpheus in Neil Gaiman's Sandman series, walking through her domain manifesting in millions of dreams at the same time.


Actually, I was going to mention this, although not specifically Neil Gaiman. Despite the recent alicornings, I still interpret Celestia and Luna as gods, more or less. In fact considering the jealousy, sibling rivalry and direct interference with mortal affairs it all seems very Greek to me. Well, hopefully they've finally worked out the jealousy and the sibling rivalry. And considering the shows penchant for using Greek mythological beasts, I gotta wonder if it wasn't influenced in this way as well.

Of course Greek mythology also sets precedents for mortals becoming gods, but that just makes me sad for Twilight. :twi99:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:17 am

Davyinatoga wrote:
You mean the flashback that had the 1-frame faceplant pulled straight out of Family Guy?

It's not like this show hasn't done that before, either. See Trixie's exit at the end of Magic Duel.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:42 am

It's done faceplants before, yes. But the Magic Duel one was framed interestingly and almost off-screen and was paced as part of a normal movement. It was a really pretty great gag. :allears: But the Sweetie Belle one here was just a side-view, sitcommy composition with an instantaneous WHAM out of nowhere which is sort of a Family Guy trademark.

It's pretty funny if they did it on purpose and won't do it again. :smirk:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:49 am

It fit fairly well here, too. I felt like it was supposed to be more of a "cute little kid doesn't know what she's doing, is clumsy as a result" sort of thing, instead of just being there solely as a gag.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:11 pm

And though I repeat myself, if only they had thought to put a lipstick smear on the floor where she landed. :gotcha:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:23 pm

I bet that they did, but then realized that red stains on the floor aren't really the kind of vibe that My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is going for. :amazing:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:34 pm

I don't get any of this. :-I

Anyway, I also noticed the lack of humour in this episode and I think it worked better for it. It allowed the show to recreate slightly more serious moments and put more emphasis on the moral.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:19 pm

Wylie wrote:I bet that they did, but then realized that red stains on the floor aren't really the kind of vibe that My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic is going for. :amazing:


Oh yeah, hurr. :-I
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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:32 pm

Purple lipstick would have solved that. :pinkieshrug:

Thinking back, have any characters ever been shown on screen wearing lipstick before? I don't think so. I'm surprised lipstick is a thing that exists in Equestria.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Wed Mar 26, 2014 2:40 pm

I haven't rewatched the ep yet, but wasn't Sweetie's lipstick pinkish or purplish?
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