S06E06: No Second Prances

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Re: S06E06: No Second Prances

Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:11 am

Am I weird for seeing Trixie's solo performance not as a suicide analogy, but more just as her going, "well! I don't need anyone else anyway! I can do it myself!"? Yeah, there's definitely depressive elements involved there, but to me it didn't read like it was on that level.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:14 am

I was just kidding, though I don't think she thought she could do it herself. She just hoped Starlight would be watching and wanted a chance to talk things through with her.

It's still kinda weird but this episode is kinda cartoony so it works ok.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:18 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Am I weird for seeing Trixie's solo performance not as a suicide analogy, but more just as her going, "well! I don't need anyone else anyway! I can do it myself!"? Yeah, there's definitely depressive elements involved there, but to me it didn't read like it was on that level.


I'm sure it wasn't meant to be read at that level, since that kind of subject matter is way out of the scope of a kids show, and the mood whiplash from a scene like that would be incredibly extreme. It's certainly a flub in the writing that it could be read that way, though.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:22 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Am I weird for seeing Trixie's solo performance not as a suicide analogy, but more just as her going, "well! I don't need anyone else anyway! I can do it myself!"? Yeah, there's definitely depressive elements involved there, but to me it didn't read like it was on that level.


I think it was closer to "I don't care what happens to me!" than "This is the end for Trixie!"

I guess that seems like kind of a fine distinction, but it ties into what you're saying too. She's going to attempt the trick, only now it's without a plan and without much care for how it'll work out.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:29 am

PaulloDEC wrote:She's going to attempt the trick, only now it's without a plan and without much care for how it'll work out.

Exactly. I think there's a difference between mere disregard for your own safety and harming yourself in hopes of your death.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:44 am

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Postby Juju&Lulu (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 12:52 am

John Cena would have been a much better friend to Starlight.

Another strong episode after last week's
"Why does life have to be so IRONIC?" :milkshake:
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 1:01 am



Cmon, this needs to be a video :v:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:03 am

I adore how jacked up Trixie was after the trick, and that was even everything going perfectly!

Trick was dangerous!
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:12 am

I'm glad they didn't back track on Trixie's character and instead decided to broaden it out more. I like the direction they took her.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:16 am

Soft Snow wrote:I'm glad they didn't back track on Trixie's character and instead decided to broaden it out more. I like the direction they took her.
:allears:

Trixie was always the best.

She's now even more the best.

Truly Great and Powerful.

:allears:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:25 am

Way better Trixie redemption episode than Magic Duel, sorry MA Larson :-D

The first 5-10 minutes were the best, especially the pseudo-montage of SG's interactions with the Mane 6. All of those were peak pony and solid gold. Rarity going overboard with clothes (and the bargain hat bin :lol: ), RD with her Wonderbolts nerdery (+ sonic boom), Fluts' critter picnic, fuckin' AJ and Big Mac. And the bit with Pinkie and Mrs. Cake especially—it actually managed to give Mrs. Cake an unexpected shot of characterization that I hadn't seen out of her before, though that might all just be down to Tabitha really throwing down on the role more than anyone even must have asked for. She sure goes to the mat for her work.

I also like the writers' giving full spotlight to SG's self-awareness about her past. She's even trying to make awkward jokes about enslaving ponies, and those lines always manage to come off with the right tone for that kind of joke. She's not socially awkward, she's trying to make the best of a shitty situation and she's trying to deflect a genuine reason not to like her through humor. It's not always gonna work no matter how good you are with your golden tongue. The writers handled that very well.

As for Twilight being a caricature of herself, yes, but... you know what, I like her that way! She felt like the fun neurotic insecure Twilight from S1/S2 rather than the boring unlikable stick-in-the-mud that she occasionally toys with being in latter-day episodes. Freakout Twilight is a Twilight I want to befriend. Teacher Twilight is a Twilight I'd want to avoid.

Great cold open too. I loved seeing Twilight setting down a plate with her mouth, if just because of the nostalgia for a time when they knew that kind of thing was inherently cuter/funnier :cheese:
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:45 am

Headless Horse wrote:As for Twilight being a caricature of herself, yes, but... you know what, I like her that way! She felt like the fun neurotic insecure Twilight from S1/S2 rather than the boring unlikable stick-in-the-mud that she occasionally toys with being in latter-day episodes. Freakout Twilight is a Twilight I want to befriend. Teacher Twilight is a Twilight I'd want to avoid.


I feel like there's a tendency with shows like this (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone) to think that if a character shows signs of development, they've officially gone up a distinct notch on some imaginary "character development" chart, from which they cannot ever move back. So basically we see an episode where Twilight is calm and collected in the face of trouble and it's like "Well, I guess she isn't nervous and neurotic anymore!"

But that's not really how people work. You can be confident in one kind of scenario, but that doesn't automatically mean you'll enjoy that same confidence in a bunch of others.

Anyway, point I'm trying to make is that Twi's behavior isn't really so outrageous. Working with a student is still an entirely new thing for her, and any scenario that might result in her disappointing Celestia is basically an automatic freakout trigger. As long as she's still facing unfamiliar challenges (especially ones involving her mentor's judgement), I think we'll keep seeing nervous, neurotic Twilight.
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Postby Juju&Lulu (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:14 am

I enjoyed this episode because it's pretty much the closest my fanfic would ever get to canon.... just swap Starlight for Sunset.... or hell even add her in.


Twilight's up to what? Five? Five reformed clones of herself walking around. Get them all together for a help group.
"Why does life have to be so IRONIC?" :milkshake:
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:21 am

DerFurShur wrote:I enjoyed this episode because it's pretty much the closest my fanfic would ever get to canon.... just swap Starlight for Sunset.... or hell even add her in.

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Postby Juju&Lulu (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:24 am

Oh hey the episode just got like 72% better just like that
"Why does life have to be so IRONIC?" :milkshake:
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:31 am

This week, on HOLY SHIT A TALKING HORSE:
  • I never thought it would happen, not now, not after six years. Twilight is a even bigger dork than when the show started.
  • Huge credit to Starlight, who has the patience of Buddha, putting up with lessons and Twilight's obvious lack of confidence, and still being willing to go through with the process. Nobody is requiring her to do this. She wants to. She's pretty great.
  • Starlight's cake is decorated with her cutie mark. It's her cakesona!
  • :gonkity: THE CLEARANCE BIN :gonkity:
  • Angel's in wuv.
  • The answer is always the spa!
  • Spa Trixie being normal and chill and not "on" is excellent.
  • Holy shit, Trixie and Starlight are the absolute best.
  • And with every scene Trixie gets awesomer!
  • The Moonshot Manticore Muff Dive??!?? [rewinds]
  • Oh. :flattered:
  • Calling back to my earlier comment, it's great to see the limits of Starlight's patience. She's a real character with agency, not merely New Twilight.
  • Yes! Starlight blows off Twilight for her new friend! This is the correct choice.
  • :pcstare:
  • Twilight's been so awful this episode (which is excellent, don't get me wrong), but I hope she gets a redeeming moment to be legitimately excellent.
  • Trixie :sweetiefrown:
  • It's not a working title of the show's already started!
  • The manticore artwork's come leaps and bounds from the pilot, wow.
  • Ha, knew we'd have to cut back to Celestia. :lol:

Mini-review: I just want to hug everyone. :allears:
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Postby ixnay (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:31 am

Man, this episode was so good
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:41 am

I also appreciated how the episode tackled the concept of magic. Not really to the extent of exploring its meaning in-universe the way Winter Wrap Up or Family Appreciation Day did; but more as a narrative device threaded throughout the story.

The cold open has Twilight trying to use table-setting as a friendship lesson of sorts, with "no magic use" being a prerequisite in what feels like a deliberate echo of WWU, and intentionally having Twilight not quite getting it—even after all this time she's still not really quite in tune with when it's appropriate culturally to use magic and when it isn't. Her lesson attempt falls flat more because its point is poorly thought out than because of the magic per se, but the overall flavor seems clear and sets the stage for the rest of the episode: Starlight has no qualms about using magic for all kinds of tasks where other ponies would never dream of using it, for purposes that seem way beyond the pale sometimes (like coercion).

And that gives us a nice backdrop against which to set up the "stage magic" vs. "real magic" comparison. It doesn't really go much into what the exact details are of just how exactly a stage magic act is supposed to work in a world where real magic happens every day; why is it supposed to be so amazing that the magician teleports into a box, when their librarian is known to teleport all around town on a daily basis? But that's sort of beside the point. Magic in the story thread is used more as a motif for "taking shortcuts" rather than a real part of the plot. The way the cold open sets it up (as a metaphor rather than as a real key element of the story) kind of prepares us for not being able to really think too hard about where and when magic is appropriate or how it coexists with Trixie's tricks; it's not entirely successful (since the end result is still pretty confusing), but it succeeds as enough of a piece of narrative sleight-of-hand to allow me to suspend my disbelief for the purpose of the story.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:43 am

:gotcha: Funny thing, Twilight's better at stage magic too. Doing things in Magic Duel that even Trixie couldn't see through.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:46 am

Octavia wrote:Image

Rainbow Dash turns into Pearl for a few moments. It's the nose, I think.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 3:48 am

Also re: the whole "Trixie suicide" thing: I doubt that's what they were going for, but then again when I think back to the pilot where it took a while to dawn on me that when Twilight charges at Nightmare Moon and slowly and in great trepidation lowers her head... she's preparing to gore the fuck out of NMM
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:07 am

I actually have barely read any posts here besides my own today as I enter May here on the east coast. Want to say a few things before browsing through...

I want to take the ending of this episode seriously but the half-baked nature of Trixie's suicide attempt just makes me laugh more than anything. Depression and half-heartedly going through her spiel? Perfect. Why is she not just doing her usual solo tricks instead? Most of the ending just comes across as characters acting for the sake of the plot (so Starlight is forced to make a quick resolution because there's less than 2 minutes left) instead of organic interaction, which the episode had mostly nailed up until then. :pinkieshrug:

Princess Twilight being ineffective as a princess (particularly when it's time to check in with Celestia in some way) has been a gag used a few times now. It's funny, but we're in S6 now, I think I would have liked to see her not so dumb this time. Worrying that Trixie & Starlight will bring the worst out of each other instead of their best was a good justification. For Twi to jump straight to trying to force inorganic friendships for the sake of a pseudo-letter to Celestia... like, she knew she grabbed DJ-PON3 out of the street based on her reaction as Vinyl walks off and it was never going to be anything, she's just fully in impress Celestia mode. Celestia knows from the start what Twi has relapsed into. It's all played as a huge gag and there's some upside to this approach but I can't help but feel the negatives, especially when Twi's realization that she was wrong is rushed, mostly off-screen, and mostly from just observing some generic "my heart is definitely not in a million pieces" line from Trixie as part of that ending.

I guess for me parts of this episode are brilliant and parts are troubling. Real up-and-downer.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:13 am

Oh yeah, one of my freeze frames was Twilight beginning to straighten out utensils Trixie was sculpting herself with. This was fantastic symbolism/foreshadowing that she still has narcissism issues (which is laid bare in the climax), kudos to Confalone if he wrote that in or the animation.

I still can't get over though how no one can see through a simple teleportation trick... I'm hoping Hoofdini did the thing with teleportation...
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:14 am


Unironically do this show tia.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:19 am

Octavia wrote:I thought that too, but she could've just been scared for Trixie's sake. :fluttershrug:

Yeah I thought that as well later on, and that CAN lampshade it, but... eh. :pinkieshrug: Big Jim tweeted this today https://twitter.com/TheBiggestJim/statu ... 2709004288

She was upset that he was chained up.


which just makes me think it was poorly thought out, which is a shame.

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τριξε


This is really cool

Headless Horse wrote:Way better Trixie redemption episode than Magic Duel, sorry MA Larson :-D


OK despite all my complaints this is definitely true, so there's that. :v:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:42 am

PaulloDEC wrote:I feel like there's a tendency with shows like this (and I'm as guilty of this as anyone) to think that if a character shows signs of development, they've officially gone up a distinct notch on some imaginary "character development" chart, from which they cannot ever move back. So basically we see an episode where Twilight is calm and collected in the face of trouble and it's like "Well, I guess she isn't nervous and neurotic anymore!"
...
Anyway, point I'm trying to make is that Twi's behavior isn't really so outrageous

She was given a good reason to be neurotic here as I said, but I think Twi at this stage should not go as far as portrayed here. There were ways to balance her character growth with the neurosis that were entirely ignored (maybe for the sake of humor). I mean, she manipulated ponies' emotions with the love spell in Lesson Zero - she's freaked out and done all this shit before. Observe the two closely in a Feeling Pinkie Keen way? Fine. Trying to manipulate ponies' friendships because I know best, this could never work ever, just like when "all the ponies in this town are CRAZY!" in the very first episode? She should know better with 70 episodes of being a princess now, and I don't think that's much of an imaginary notch on a character development chart in this instance to expect such.

I guess in short I'm saying it felt like she fully regressed when partial regression would have felt more organic. :pinkieshrug:

Headless Horse wrote:[handling of magic] succeeds as enough of a piece of narrative sleight-of-hand to allow me to suspend my disbelief for the purpose of the story.

Despite my complaining about it twice, I agree with this - it's ultimately minor background context in the scheme of the episode's conflict and character interaction. It was a chance to do some awesome things with stage vs. actual unicorn magic that was ignored, though, and that's a bit sad (although maybe wouldn't have been very interesting TV to fully explore, so whatever).

Also to those saying Trixie was just more in a depressed than suicide state: ok probably, but she did say any slip-up on the trick and she would be a goner, literally. "A goner" sure put the idea of death into play.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 5:01 am

Headless Horse wrote:As for Twilight being a caricature of herself, yes, but... you know what, I like her that way! She felt like the fun neurotic insecure Twilight from S1/S2 rather than the boring unlikable stick-in-the-mud that she occasionally toys with being in latter-day episodes. Freakout Twilight is a Twilight I want to befriend. Teacher Twilight is a Twilight I'd want to avoid.

I don't think Twilight can win at this point. If she succeeds at princessy stuff, people complain about how she's "too perfect." If she's awkward and fallible, she's "regressing."
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 5:07 am

Only issue I had with Twilight this episode was that she's playing hover-mom to Starlight despite the coda of the season opener being to let Starlight do her own thing. I can forgive the retcon of Magic Duel's ending, but forgetting something that happened 4 episodes earlier?
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 5:44 am

Some good observations here, as always.

I will say, Starlight really should have at least told Twilight she wasn't coming.

I would have prefered Celestia found a way to have fun with Derpy, Cranky and DJ-Pon3. But, nitpicks.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 5:53 am

Ransom wrote:Some good observations here, as always.

I will say, Starlight really should have at least told Twilight she wasn't coming.

I would have prefered Celestia found a way to have fun with Derpy, Cranky and DJ-Pon3. But, nitpicks.


Said before, but it was unusual for her. I've already seen some speculating she's a Changeling. Fitting in with the sighting in the season opener. But both her and Luna seemed a bit frustrated last week with Twilight too.

Personally, I hope they don't bring back the Changelings. The comics have done such a great job with Chrysalis. I doubt the show would let her be quite that evil.
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Postby Juniper Phoenix (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 6:22 am

This episode was good. Damn good, even. It's been a while since an episode has had me this emotionally invested. I was really hoping Starlight and Trixie's friendship would work out (and glad that it did), and I was getting frustrated with Twilight's constant meddling. Twilight's my second-favorite pony, and she was actually pissing me off. :rainbert:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 6:28 am

The Doctor wrote:Said before, but it was unusual for her. I've already seen some speculating she's a Changeling. Fitting in with the sighting in the season opener. But both her and Luna seemed a bit frustrated last week with Twilight too.

Ehhhh, letting her mask slip around her subjects is a little unusual, but I don't think it was totally crazy for this episode. She visits for dinner with her former student, who proceeds to blow smoke up her ass with an extremely flimsy story about how well she's doing with her student, then she and her student disappear for hours.

What I'm saying is, Twilight should've served cake first.
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Postby Ragnar (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 7:26 am

Mechanical Ape wrote:This week, on HOLY SHIT A TALKING HORSE:
  • The Moonshot Manticore Muff Dive??!?? [rewinds]
  • Oh. :flattered:

Oh good, I wasn't the only one who heard that. I actually had to look up what she really said.
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Postby !saak (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 7:56 am

Peak pony, revitalized the show for me, yes good, holy crap, wow!!
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 1:09 pm

Image Image Image Image Image

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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 1:26 pm

The magic thing extends to physical comedy too. Twilight being hypocritical isn't just about what SG is doing with Trixie, but after SG has been brought up short for using magic on other ponies for inappropriate purposes, Twilight then grabs her from across the room and drags her close to whisper to her. :lol:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 1:38 pm

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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 1:40 pm

^^ :ponydrugs:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:04 pm

Headless Horse wrote:^^ :ponydrugs:

:awesomedash: :awesomedash: :awesomedash:
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