S04E12: Pinkie Pride

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Re: S04E12: Pinkie Pride

Postby ShieldedDiamond (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:00 am

Yeah, honestly, I'm quite shocked this episode thread is so slow, and only at 12 pages.

E: Apparently I started page 13. :v:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:01 am

I guess the stance I'm trying to take is this:

I notice the lyrical problems in pony songs, but they don't really bug me; I enjoy the songs just fine, and I just accept the flaws as part of the flavor of the show.

But when I see a show or a movie or a musical where the lyrics are woven into an amazing and intricate and flawless tapestry, I feel like I can appreciate and enjoy it on a level far more intense than I would have if I hadn't known what to look for. For instance, Wylie, just as it kills you to hear someone singing off key or a high school band with a horn section that can't hold the high register without cracking all to shit, it kills me to hear that someone listened to "Prince Ali" without ever realizing how much gorgeous complexity there was in that one counterpoint verse.

But such people enjoy the songs (and the movie) anyway. It's all bonus; and knowing that so much of the intended audience is never going to notice most of that bonus stuff either, it makes me feel the same way to discover it as it made me feel to see a My Little Pony show being this lavishly animated and this cleverly written and this earnestly funny, targeted at six-year-olds and broadcast in the middle of the day on a backwater off-package cable channel. It's like, who are you showing off to? Who are you trying to impress? Or are you doing this just because you love what you're doing THAT much?


E: Image N'hey
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:02 am

There were 3 pages in the spoiler thread, but I think most the comments from there have been duplicated here by their author.
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:07 am

i havent copied my posts from the leak thread yet :v:
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Postby Kronos (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:10 am

Headless Horse wrote:I guess the stance I'm trying to take is this:

I notice the lyrical problems in pony songs, but they don't really bug me; I enjoy the songs just fine, and I just accept the flaws as part of the flavor of the show.

But when I see a show or a movie or a musical where the lyrics are woven into an amazing and intricate and flawless tapestry, I feel like I can appreciate and enjoy it on a level far more intense than I would have if I hadn't known what to look for. For instance, Wylie, just as it kills you to hear someone singing off key or a high school band with a horn section that can't hold the high register without cracking all to shit, it kills me to hear that someone listened to "Prince Ali" without ever realizing how much gorgeous complexity there was in that one counterpoint verse.

But such people enjoy the songs (and the movie) anyway. It's all bonus; and knowing that so much of the intended audience is never going to notice most of that bonus stuff either, it makes me feel the same way to discover it as it made me feel to see a My Little Pony show being this lavishly animated and this cleverly written and this earnestly funny, targeted at six-year-olds and broadcast in the middle of the day on a backwater off-package cable channel. It's like, who are you showing off to? Who are you trying to impress? Or are you doing this just because you love what you're doing THAT much?


E: Image N'hey


Headless if you keep talking you'll be contractually obligated to change your avatar :spoiler:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:17 am

It occurred to me that I haven't wrote about the episode here yet. Since I already talked about it in the Spoilers thread, I didn't feel the need to.

It was a goofy, silly episode, and I like that :q:
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Postby ponygals (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:31 am

Pinkie was EMO Pinkie!!!!! Slightly! I thought the songs sung were good I loved the slow song sung by Pinkie that was cool.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:37 am

Headless Horse wrote:For instance, Wylie, just as it kills you to hear someone singing off key or a high school band with a horn section that can't hold the high register without cracking all to shit, it kills me to hear that someone listened to "Prince Ali" without ever realizing how much gorgeous complexity there was in that one counterpoint verse.


Aha! We have identified the difference between us, then! (I mean, aside from word density :v:)

I can hear the complexity in something like "Prince Ali", or "Quartet" from Chess, or any of the incredibly wordy parts of Phantom (i.e. "Prima Donna"), and I can appreciate the artistry it takes to achieve, but as it's going by, I can't process all of it. I have to go back and listen several times to tease apart all the different lines playing against each other, and it's hard work. It's rewarding, but it's hard. And for me, sometimes it's a bit too much- I just wanted to hear a song, and you handed me a sound puzzle. Can't I just have a song?

The first time I hear a song like that, I'm thinking, "Well, that's certainly nice, but I have no idea what's going on in those other voices, so I'm just going to let it wash over me and get the gist of it."

I'm reminded of a Blue Man Group show I saw where they did something very similar, but with spoken words and projected text in the theater and electric signs (and oddly-shaped percussion, of course) where the design was to just overwhelm you with input so that there was no way to pay attention to everything that was going on- while everything was begging for your attention. (In other news, I get to see Blue Man Group tomorrow night! :awesomedash: )
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Postby ponygals (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:46 am

Where did Weird Al cut into the "Smile" song? They re-sung that song?
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:51 am

Al sings a quick verse of it in a polka melody during the goof off song, and Pinkie notes that it's his song. It was a very well done meta joke about the guest actor.



About the 1:05 mark
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:55 am

Wylie wrote:
Aha! We have identified the difference between us, then! (I mean, aside from word density :v:)

I can hear the complexity in something like "Prince Ali", or "Quartet" from Chess, or any of the incredibly wordy parts of Phantom (i.e. "Prima Donna"), and I can appreciate the artistry it takes to achieve, but as it's going by, I can't process all of it. I have to go back and listen several times to tease apart all the different lines playing against each other, and it's hard work. It's rewarding, but it's hard. And for me, sometimes it's a bit too much- I just wanted to hear a song, and you handed me a sound puzzle. Can't I just have a song?

The first time I hear a song like that, I'm thinking, "Well, that's certainly nice, but I have no idea what's going on in those other voices, so I'm just going to let it wash over me and get the gist of it."

I'm reminded of a Blue Man Group show I saw where they did something very similar, but with spoken words and projected text in the theater and electric signs (and oddly-shaped percussion, of course) where the design was to just overwhelm you with input so that there was no way to pay attention to everything that was going on- while everything was begging for your attention. (In other news, I get to see Blue Man Group tomorrow night! :awesomedash: )


Oh, sure. And there's whole Broadway musicals that are like that. I watched through a performance of Newsies a few months ago and in a lot of the songs I found I was barely understanding a word of it because there were always at least two, sometimes three lyrical threads happening at the same time. After a certain point my brain just gave up and the only thing I remember from the songs was "Apparently there are people who are able to understand enough of this from a single $80 showing that they can write a coherent review. No way could I afford to do this for a living."

But given the means, I definitely want to go back and see it and things like it again, like with the benefit of a lyric sheet and Youtube. I know that there's a lot more there to appreciate, and it feels a bit churlish or something not to go in and squeeze every possible drop of value from it.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 5:58 am

Perpetual Lurker wrote:Here's what I'm never able to get. In cases like this, why is it that the subjective quality of the music always goes down the more educated you are on the subject? I mean, it almost seems like being taught all of these rules that must be adhered to makes it harder to enjoy music that doesn't do it perfectly, while those who don't know about those rules don't hear the problem, and thus enjoy the music more.


I dunno, you've honestly got a point about the double-edged sword. Comic Sans bothers lots of people but you can read it just fine right? Why learn about typography if it's just going to bother you the next time you see it?

I guess for me it's that there's also genuine pleasure in learning about lyrics, or typography, or art theory, in the same way that you might enjoy learning Spanish. Because they're languages too.

Before I took an art theory class I was like "whatever, just splash some paint on a canvas and charge some sucker a million bucks for it" but after learning more about the language of art I could see that, no, there's genuinely something going on there. That doesn't mean I now have to like it. I'm free to call the painting donkey piss. But now that I speak a little of the same language that the artist speaks I'm much better equipped to understand what they were trying to say. (And why it's still donkey piss.)

Take game design. If you understand the language of game design (not the programming language, but rather the communication between creator and player), it makes video games more fascinating and helps articulate why some games work better than others.

It gets a lot of criticism, but I think TV Tropes is an excellent tool for understanding the overall cross-media language of storytelling.

Learning a new language also means you notice whenever other people get the grammar wrong. Hopefully it doesn't also turn you into a smug jerk but I guess it inevitably does a little maybe?

This is a long way to say that I really do enjoy lyrical structure even though "I am here at the Grand Gala, for it is the best par-TEE" makes me reflexively wince. It's like if Kefka's 1040s were printed in Papyrus. :gonkity:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:01 am

Now, if they were printed on papyrus, that would be Art. :vogue:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:21 am

PictishBeast wrote: It's like if Kefka's 1040s were printed in Papyrus. :gonkity:


I used to work at a tax software company. Do you actually know how much it killed me to have to reproduce forms using Arial Narrow instead of Helvetica Condensed as God and nature intended? :deflated:
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Postby Yarma (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:38 am

Well this is the best episode in addition to most of the episodes this season. It rules even when some of the lyrics were wonky it's too much fun to give a fuck.

Weird al didn't say Twinkie Weiner sandwich but, if he had I might have died from joy so it's for the best.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:43 am

To get back to :ponydrugs: and away from lyricchat and fontchat, this season really has been killing it. I remember threads like "Have we reached Peak Pony???" like they were ages and ages ago.

Whatever they're doing, they're doing well. I want them to keep doing it.
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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:51 am

Niels Olof wrote:Now, noble birth alone is no guarantee for wealth, not now, and not back in the day, either. What is clear is that Princess Twilight Sparkle is not throwing her money, if any, around. Her only extravagant gesture seems to be her balloon (and that could standard government issue, for all we know. Perhaps she's on a generous stipend). This could be consistent with old money, or just a comfortable, but not excessive, amount of available funds.

No, she hardly throws money around, but from the glimpses we've seen of her childhood home, I think it's clear her family is well off.

Wylie wrote:I know, right? I'm a musician myself- I play Horn in my local community band, and bass guitar in a small group. And it is absolutely painful for me to listen to a high-school band, because there's inevitably intonation problems that they just simply can't solve and IT HURTS MY BRAIN AAAH :twonk:

You wouldn't have this trouble listening to the top band at my old school. :smug: The lower band though... :nngh:
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Postby Yarma (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 6:56 am

Wylie wrote:To get back to :ponydrugs: and away from lyricchat and fontchat, this season really has been killing it. I remember threads like "Have we reached Peak Pony???" like they were ages and ages ago.

Whatever they're doing, they're doing well. I want them to keep doing it.


I used to think that season two was it, but man besides like two meh episodes they have blown my mind so far. It's like woah I only have optimism about new episodes for once.
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Postby Venusy (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:00 am

PictishBeast wrote:Take game design. If you understand the language of game design (not the programming language, but rather the communication between creator and player), it makes video games more fascinating and helps articulate why some games work better than others.

Pretty much. Learning about a subject in-depth - no matter what that subject - makes it easy to criticize the worst parts but better to pick out the best parts. I can complain about the Gameloft MLP game very easily, but show my appreciation for something like Super Meat Boy.
PictishBeast wrote:It gets a lot of criticism, but I think TV Tropes is an excellent tool for understanding the overall cross-media language of storytelling.

As you say, TVTropes is a tool, and like all tools, it can be misused. It is useful for seeing how widespread an idea (or something resembling it) can be, but not for deeper literary analysis of how those ideas are actually used in each individual work. It should especially not be used for writing stories featuring a walking trope instead of a main character.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:23 am

Too early to volunteer for the Rountable on this one?
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 7:26 am

Wylie wrote:To get back to :ponydrugs: and away from lyricchat and fontchat, this season really has been killing it. I remember threads like "Have we reached Peak Pony???" like they were ages and ages ago.

Whatever they're doing, they're doing well. I want them to keep doing it.


It's amazing how awesome this season has been so far. Man, if they keep this quality up, I can see the show getting maybe 3 more seasons. :allears:

Also, I'm definitely going on the Round Table for this.
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Postby Sind (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:38 am

PictishBeast wrote:Take game design. If you understand the language of game design (not the programming language, but rather the communication between creator and player), it makes video games more fascinating and helps articulate why some games work better than others.


Yup. And the really fun art is when you start designing your own games(i.e. putting your experience in critiquing to use). Especially if you're into problem-solving.

As for the topic on why the "subjective quality" goes down, it might be because if it's something you're interested in to that degree, you've already seen a ton of stuff in that category, including some of the best it has to offer. This will naturally make the "average" stuff look poorer.
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Postby Big Boss (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:30 pm

So, Semper Pies, are you bad enough partiers to be on this week's RT?

(it's not xclusive to Semper Pies but it would be great to have Pinkie fans and their opinions)
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:32 pm

I'm a bad enough dude...I'm so bad that I ate a bowl of nails for breakfast without any milk. I'm definitely doing the Round Table for this episode.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:36 pm

You should mention gang tags as part of the RT. Get people wondering. :smirk:
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:40 pm

Im not part of ANY gang, and probably ill be out of state at the time of the RT. And i probably still dont have good enough typing for it yet. Im trying, really i am, but bleh i still suck at posting :fluttersmith:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:50 pm

So, I've been stewing about this all weekend, trying to find something to say that wraps it all up for me, and the only thing I've come up with has this...gravitas to it that I can't seem to shake.

While I don't know if this was my favourite episode (Sweet and Elite still holds that title), I can't help but see this as the best episode of the whole show.

Fuckin'... :ponydrugs: :ponydrugs: :ponydrugs: :ponydrugs: :ponydrugs: :ponydrugs:
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Postby Jill (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:56 pm

I just watched it. Shiiiiiiiit. :ponydrugs: We ascend to a new level of hyperbole where our horse show has officially been knocked out of this world and the stars await us. :shenanigans:

Also I died a few minutes in because of :fluttercite:

PictishBeast wrote:Take game design. If you understand the language of game design (not the programming language, but rather the communication between creator and player), it makes video games more fascinating and helps articulate why some games work better than others.
ask me about your favorite game :amazing:

Sind wrote:Yup. And the really fun art is when you start designing your own games(i.e. putting your experience in critiquing to use). Especially if you're into problem-solving.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:04 pm

kefkafloyd wrote:So, Semper Pies, are you bad enough partiers to be on this week's RT?

(it's not xclusive to Semper Pies but it would be great to have Pinkie fans and their opinions)

I'd love to. :yay:
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Postby Throbulator (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:09 pm

Guys, what on earth is Derpy doing?
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Postby Discord (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:17 pm

I can't get over the Spanish piñata song in Goof-Off. Like, the Weird-Al Smile nod was pretty darn funny, but it is the kind of joke you would expect them to make in a Weird-Al special. But then Pinkie Pie starts singing in Spanish and you probably have no idea what that even means until after the episode, unless you`re familiar with that particular piece of fairly non-mainstream culture (either that, or I`m just really out of touch).

I seriously want to know how that idea reached conceptualization. I imagine there would have to be an amusing or interesting anecdote for it.

Preview edit: Derpy is a kitty :3:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:25 pm

Discord wrote:I can't get over the Spanish piñata song in Goof-Off. Like, the Weird-Al Smile nod was pretty darn funny, but it is the kind of joke you would expect them to make in a Weird-Al special. But then Pinkie Pie starts singing in Spanish and you probably have no idea what that even means until after the episode, unless you`re familiar with that particular piece of fairly non-mainstream culture (either that, or I`m just really out of touch).

I seriously want to know how that idea reached conceptualization. I imagine there would have to be an amusing or interesting anecdote for it.

Obscure jokes like that are always nice. See also Diamond Tiara's cute-ceañera from way back in S1, which incidentally got mentioned in this episode. Speaking of Diamond Tiara, can I just point out again how much of an asshole she is, even to her one friend? :fluttersmith:
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:28 pm

Discord wrote:I can't get over the Spanish piñata song in Goof-Off. Like, the Weird-Al Smile nod was pretty darn funny, but it is the kind of joke you would expect them to make in a Weird-Al special. But then Pinkie Pie starts singing in Spanish and you probably have no idea what that even means until after the episode, unless you`re familiar with that particular piece of fairly non-mainstream culture (either that, or I`m just really out of touch).


I'm Spanish and I still didn't know what was going on. I thought it was still English and I was mishearing it or something :v:

Fizzbuzz wrote:Speaking of Diamond Tiara, can I just point out again how much of an asshole she is, even to her one friend? :fluttersmith:


Silver Spoon ain't taking shit from nopony though :gotcha:
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Postby InC (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:33 pm

Just noticed this:

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I am in awe. :allears:
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Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:38 pm

InC wrote:Just noticed this:

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I am in awe. :allears:



All along the earth ponies have been using invisible tape to hold things, but this time pinkie slipped up and used tape we can see! Your secret is out ponies! We now know how you use your hooves as hands!!!
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Postby Tears (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:41 pm

Random little re-watch impressions:

I love all the little choral bits in the first song, Amy Keating Rogers is great at that. Every Single Day might be my favourite out of the songs :allears:

Cheese Sandwich is such a dick. "Oh what a coincidence, I have a Pinkie sense! :shenanigans: " "Yes. I sensed that you did". This fucking guy :ohrarity:

Pinkie's hair sproings back to normal when she's moping and Twilight comes over :deflated:

The x-ray and lighting in the surgery is all fireflies

When she's putting away her party cannon, initially it looks like the curtains are parting before she goes onstage, except she's giving up on her dreams instead :fluttersmith:

The part where the lament switches to major key is Rocky IV soundtrack-level triumphant :jingo:

Also, as soon as it gets to the "oh, look at those happy faces" part, Pinkie starts bouncing instead of walking again :-D

And I get the "Disney-esque" comments when Pinkie is up on the balcony :ponydrugs:

That song covers a huge amount of ground from sad to happy into a reprise of Cheese's tune, and having the central conflict resolved through song works wonders for the flow of the episode.

Just before the challenge, when Pinkie's observing the terrible majesty of Cheese's party-planning, the scene closes with Pinkie's eyes narrowing as sinister music fades in, and the shot is basically identical to Chrysalis' maniacal laughter scene fades in A Canterlot Wedding :hithere:

The bubble... making... thingie. The thing. That makes bubbles. You blow through i- Look I don't know, okay? Turns out I've managed to live this long without knowing what constituent parts of the bubble-blowing apparatus are called. Anyway, that thing is taped to Pinkie's hoof when she's in the balloon. They found a fix for hoof-hands, and it is masking tape :spoiler:

The goof-off music is amazing, it's like five different catchy - within the parameters of polka being catchy and not the music they play to prisoners in Abu Ghraib - melodies in a row, and the Smile polka remix is pretty rad.

Hooray for earned-feeling group hug moments :hug:

Young Cheese leaving a humdrum life in Manehattan to seek fame and fortune in the bright lights of the boonies :thejoke:

Filly bon Bon glasses is just... :allears: I don't care how many times it happens, I'm always glad when I see Bon Bon and Lyra together in the background. I don't know if there's been much changeover in the art team over the years, but I'm glad "mint-coloured horse + candy horse together always" has been handed down.

The shot where they're cresting the hill with the party cannon, party tank, giant Rainbow Dash balloon zeppelin etc looks like they're marching to a very specific war :ponder:

The last song is everything :twonk: From both A Canterlot Wedding and this ep, I've decided bouncy electropop is the best palate-cleanser after big emotional episodes.


So yeah, fun. I was dreading Weird Al's presence too, but he was in general a lot less bouncy than I'd worried he was going to be, and the gravelly-Clint Eastwood vibe dialled down the goofiness. Also, he wasn't there a lot of the time. He turned out a lot better than I'd expected, but the fact that the episode was mostly Pinkie was what made it for me.


On the musical conversation earlier, I like the scrappy "let's put on a show!" vibe the musical numbers sometimes have in MLP. Which sounds weird, to portray an expensive show made by a huge corporation as scrappy, but I think the "Disney-esque" comments come from when the show gets close to Disney levels, despite much less time, resources, etc. Whoever's writing the episode writes the song, they confer with Danny Ingram and Steffan Andrews, it gets done. If the writer is bad at lyric-writing or hasn't had enough time, then they have to build the song round whatever back of the envelope screed the writer has come up with (looking at you, Polsky).

Of course that means the songs have the potential to be much worse than Disney fare, and we have seen that a few times. But my thing with Disney is that it feels like so many people work on the songs and they go through so many passes that a lot of the time they can be flattened out to "competent". It's a song, and it's sort of catchy and it won't be the one you leave the cinema humming but it's fine.

And I'd take a shiny eighties pop song like Pony Everypony Should Know or a ramalama sixties bubblegum pop track like Bad Seed or a sugary Katy Perry-style track like Get Your Hooves Up over a mid-tier Disney ballad.

Also:

Headless Horse wrote:E: Image N'hey



Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah :socks: The secret official emote of TRS.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:49 pm

Wylie wrote: It's rewarding, but it's hard. And for me, sometimes it's a bit too much- I just wanted to hear a song, and you handed me a sound puzzle. Can't I just have a song?


Yeah, I wish I had someone like Octavia's training so I could understand the mechanics of it all.

Throbulator wrote:Guys, what on earth is Derpy doing?
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It appears to be catlike stalking of the boneless chicken.
Weird horsez. :v:
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Baby there ain't nobody better
So u should - never, ever go by the letter
U're so cool - Everything u do is success
Make the rules
Then break them all cuz u are the best


(Or just be making the best of this sloppy dog's breakfast of a situation. Damn Pinkie.)
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:08 pm

One thing I liked is that Cheese had a seemingly endless amount of Boneless's. I was not expecting that to be the key in the episode.
:plonk: Image :)
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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:11 pm

The Doctor wrote:Al sings a quick verse of it in a polka melody during the goof off song, and Pinkie notes that it's his song. It was a very well done meta joke about the guest actor.



About the 1:05 mark


:hiiiii: "Why should you compromise
Try this one on for size
'Cause nothing quite says 'cheer' like the ringing in your ear of the Cheese supreme cannon ball surprise"


Holy hell why has nobody extolled the grandness of this lyric yet? :-D There is seriously nothing at all to complain about in that stanza. The syllables are perfectly stressed in the right rhythms, there's so much internal soft rhyming, the extended cadenza leading through the whole last line leading right into the next verse, the subtle "Cheese supreme" joke snuck in (like a sandwich :spoiler: ), no unnecessary repetition...

Boss Hogg's Chicken Dinner wrote:Weird al didn't say Twinkie Weiner sandwich but, if he had I might have died from joy so it's for the best.


Wow, I just got that. 15 years and I never caught that double entendre. :facehoof:
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Postby Mir (?) » Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:48 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:

It appears to be catlike stalking of the boneless chicken.
Weird horsez. :v:


Well this was right after it was dancing around. Maybe she's trying to get a closer look to figure out what the heck just happened?
like the Matrix, but with raccoons instead of computers...
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