S05E01-02: The Cutie Map

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Re: S05E01-02: The Cutie Map

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:05 pm

Doh :-I
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:47 pm

I didn't consciously recognize until just now that the train to Equal Village stops there at the convenient end of the rail, lets our heroes off, and then just reverses straight back into the tunnel like someone rewound the film.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:49 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:I didn't consciously recognize until just now that the train to Equal Village stops there at the convenient end of the rail, lets our heroes off, and then just reverses straight back into the tunnel like someone rewound the film.


This is actually normal for a train. They can go in reverse as easily as they go forward.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:55 pm

Headless Horse wrote:Doh :-I

Aside from what PaulloDEC posted (which I somehow missed when I made that post :v:), there was this one other case as well, towards the beginning of the episode:
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I really would love to hear what the children of Starlight's village think of the process of getting a cutie mark. Are they all horrified at the eventuality of receiving one, eager to have it removed by their dear leader as soon as possible? Or, if they are indoctrinated enough to never even try to be good at anything, do they somehow manage to remain without a mark all their lives?
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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:09 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Aside from what PaulloDEC posted (which I somehow missed when I made that post :v:), there was this one other case as well, towards the beginning of the episode:
Image

I really would love to hear what the children of Starlight's village think of the process of getting a cutie mark. Are they all horrified at the eventuality of receiving one, eager to have it removed by their dear leader as soon as possible? Or, if they are indoctrinated enough to never even try to be good at anything, do they somehow manage to remain without a mark all their lives?


Suddenly, the CMC's talent at NOT getting cutie marks becomes horribly interesting to the wrong kind of pony.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:11 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Aside from what PaulloDEC posted (which I somehow missed when I made that post :v:), there was this one other case as well, towards the beginning of the episode:
Image

I really would love to hear what the children of Starlight's village think of the process of getting a cutie mark. Are they all horrified at the eventuality of receiving one, eager to have it removed by their dear leader as soon as possible? Or, if they are indoctrinated enough to never even try to be good at anything, do they somehow manage to remain without a mark all their lives?


It's pretty horrifying to think about (and starts to get pretty close to a cannon example of "The Story of the Blanks,"), though also one of about a billion reasons (which the episode put forth rather nicely) why a society built on Starlight's philosophy really is doomed to fail. I mean, with no special talents, the economy goes to mud, I can't imagine any national defense working, etc. etc.

Hmm, Starlight being a double agent for the Griffons or Changelings suddenly sounds plausible. :flail:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:15 pm

WandereringPony wrote:
Suddenly, the CMC's talent at NOT getting cutie marks becomes horribly interesting to the wrong kind of pony.

If they came to her village, Starlight Glimmer would surely present them as paragons of her philosophy. "These girls have wasted the past few years of their lives trying to excel, all for nothing! Look upon them and see the futility of attempted superiority!"
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Postby Doctor Wheeze (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:42 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:Closer view of the map, if anyone's interested. Not every known location appears (I guess the map just shows whatever it thinks is relevant?), but I've got the ones I can identify pencilled in.

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In terms of the big four (Ponyville, Canterlot, Cloudsdale and the Crystal Empire) it fits pretty well with the other map we have.

That twisty tree to the east of the Equalist village seems way more detailed than anything else :ponder:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:47 pm

I truly am evil.

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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:15 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Aside from what PaulloDEC posted (which I somehow missed when I made that post :v:), there was this one other case as well, towards the beginning of the episode:
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There was also an adult (possibly a teacher?) leading a group of children along.

Also, someone earlier pointed out that the spell to remove Cutie Marks looked painful, but I wonder if it was only painful to the Mane Six because they were unwilling? Earlier, Sugar Belle had described the process as "beautiful". :pinkieshrug:
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:17 pm

Chaos Sonic wrote: Earlier, Sugar Belle had described the process as "beautiful". :pinkieshrug:


People in cults say what they are expected to, not what they actually think or feel.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:24 pm

Chaos Sonic wrote:There was also an adult (possibly a teacher?) leading a group of children along.

Also, someone earlier pointed out that the spell to remove Cutie Marks looked painful, but I wonder if it was only painful to the Mane Six because they were unwilling? Earlier, Sugar Belle had described the process as "beautiful". :pinkieshrug:


I could see it either way. It's not really clear if the other ponies were there willingly or whether she'd taken their marks by force and then brainwashed them like she tried with the Mane 6.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:32 pm

:nnngh: Presence of kids makes Starlight's plan even more horrifying. Does she rip their cutie marks off the minute they get them?
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:36 pm

What people don't know is that those cutie marks made everyone in that town super good at math. Starlight could have been a great teacher if given the chance :spike101:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:42 pm

The Doctor wrote::nnngh: Presence of kids makes Starlight's plan even more horrifying. Does she rip their cutie marks off the minute they get them?

I figure she must. After all, considering what Night Glider said about "the heartache of a life with special talents," I think that Starlight Glimmer would want all her citizens, adults and children, to know the meaning of cutie-mark-induced pain before she provides salvation from it. This would ensure greater loyalty than if they had not suffered in the first place.
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Postby Lorce (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:49 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote: Or, if they are indoctrinated enough to never even try to be good at anything, do they somehow manage to remain without a mark all their lives?

Well, that does kinda depend on that old discussion - whether the marks are supposed to be predestined or if they could be learned. :pinkieshrug:
But from what we learned about them, they should need some sort of 'trigger event' to appear which might be less likely to happen in a village like that. ^^
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:02 pm

Chaos Sonic wrote:There was also an adult (possibly a teacher?) leading a group of children along.

Also, someone earlier pointed out that the spell to remove Cutie Marks looked painful, but I wonder if it was only painful to the Mane Six because they were unwilling? Earlier, Sugar Belle had described the process as "beautiful". :pinkieshrug:


Twilight had the removal spell hit her while she was warming up a magic blast, having her talent in magic ripped from her in mid-cast couldn't have been pleasant.

Re: cartoon: kool-aid pitcher not marked "DEBT," Twilight not crying. 2/10.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:06 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:Or, if they are indoctrinated enough to never even try to be good at anything, do they somehow manage to remain without a mark all their lives?


The one problem with that is that cutie marks do not give a pony talent. Rarity was good with fashion before getting hers. Rainbow Dash did a Sonic Rainboom before getting hers. It was the equal mark that held them back, not the loss of their cutie marks. Those kids wouldn't have any limitations.

:ohboy: They'd be filled with squeaky potential!

I was actually surprised the episode wasn't going in a direction that it's not the cutie mark that makes you special, but who you are.
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Postby Factory Factory (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:10 pm

Then again, the equals mark was shown to be actively inhibiting the Mane 6's normal expressions of themselves. It's probably a more complicated spell than just a butt stamp transplant.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:14 pm

Factory Factory wrote:Then again, the equals mark was shown to be actively inhibiting the Mane 6's normal expressions of themselves. It's probably a more complicated spell than just a butt stamp transplant.


Well that's just it. The kids would not be limited in their abilities until they got their equal mark.
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:19 pm

The Equal Marks power is just representative of what these types of societies do - being who you are is disallowed, it's all about the peer pressure power of the crowd being used to suppress individual traits through fear. If individuals are not allowed to express themselves, there is no dialogue, just a monologue from the cultist-in-chief, and therefore absolute control is assured. No one is immune to it, not even authority figures (Twilight Sparkle), and just because you see what is going on doesn't mean you can stop it. In the end descent is stomped. Twilight Sparkle and her friends weren't dangerous because they were deliberately subversive, they were dangerous simply because they offered an opposing viewpoint.

If there's one thing this gets wrong about cults its that every one of the Markless turn once Starlight is revealed as a fraud. The reality is that in the light of fraudulence the fringes of the society bleed away and the existing core double down. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses still exist despite getting their prediction of the end of the world wrong five times.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:20 pm

The Doctor wrote:The one problem with that is that cutie marks do not give a pony talent. Rarity was good with fashion before getting hers. Rainbow Dash did a Sonic Rainboom before getting hers. It was the equal mark that held them back, not the loss of their cutie marks. Those kids wouldn't have any limitations.

:ohboy: They'd be filled with squeaky potential!

If children are taught to never seek this potential, though, then isn't it quite possible that they would never develop any talent in the first place? I imagine it'd be rather hard to do, especially in the pre-teen and teenage years, but if one of them is raised to hate, to fear success, then he or she will most likely never step outside of mediocrity for all the days of his or her life.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:29 pm

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:
If there's one thing this gets wrong about cults its that every one of the Markless turn once Starlight is revealed as a fraud. The reality is that in the light of fraudulence the fringes of the society bleed away and the existing core double down. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses still exist despite getting their prediction of the end of the world wrong five times.


This is why the Deep Space Nine episode that this episode was like is so bad. In the end, when the fraud is found out, after she caused the deaths of several people, all the people in the city still thought they were better off for it.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:45 pm

Something I realized. Remember how in the 1980s, we had shows like "The Get-Along Gang"? Where they depicted anyone who has an individual opinion to be wrong no matter what? It was so bad that Mark Evanier created "The Buddy Bears" to make fun of this idea mercilessly?

Yeah, this Pony episode is the complete opposite of the Buddy Bears trope.
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Postby UnintelGen (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:12 pm

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:If there's one thing this gets wrong about cults its that every one of the Markless turn once Starlight is revealed as a fraud. The reality is that in the light of fraudulence the fringes of the society bleed away and the existing core double down. This is why Jehovah's Witnesses still exist despite getting their prediction of the end of the world wrong five times.


Yeah, while that's true... You gotta admit that even if they wanted to do that (The show writers) it would be incredibly depressing. Hell, I'm shocked that when Sunlight was outed for being a fraud, her followers STILL wanted to continue the 'equal' society provided Sunlight did the same to herself. In that way they almost doubled down and simply rejected the cause because they found out their leader was crazy and a fraud and wouldn't submit to the equality.

Jesus, you have to think how long some of them have been there. Hell, the indoctrination sequence was incredibly disturbing simply because everyone in the town, even those who wished for their cutie marks back, everyone found it normal to lock a bunch of ponies up until they became 'friends'. And some of them probably went though it too.

On an unrelated note, I wonder if Tirek ever visited the place during his little tour...
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 5:41 pm

Bakertoons wrote:Something I realized. Remember how in the 1980s, we had shows like "The Get-Along Gang"? Where they depicted anyone who has an individual opinion to be wrong no matter what? It was so bad that Mark Evanier created "The Buddy Bears" to make fun of this idea mercilessly?

Yeah, this Pony episode is the complete opposite of the Buddy Bears trope.


Let's see, anyone mash up "Our Town" with the Buddy Bears yet?

Now the song is stuck in my head :twonk:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:18 pm

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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:25 pm

Wylie wrote:Paging Octavia to this thread for further analysis. :shocktavia:

The song starts out in E♭ major. I'm just gonna quickly go through the progression:

Intro: E♭, B♭/D, E♭, A♭, E♭, B♭/F. All diatonic major chords, ends on the dominant to lead into the first verse. Standard stuff for any march.

Verse 1: E♭, G/D, E♭, G/D, Cmin, B♭, E♭, G/D, Cmin, B♭. The G chord is not diatonic to the key of E♭, which is a little unsettling when it follows with E♭, the tonic. But the next two times that G chord is played, it goes to a C-minor chord, which means it's acting as a secondary dominant, something very common in marches. So the first time that G chord comes up, it sounds like something's up, but the next two times, it feels okay, so you start second-guessing yourself. Maybe everything is okay after all. It parallels the ponies' reactions when they visit the town.

Chorus 1: A♭, E♭, B♭, E♭, A♭, E♭/G, B♭/D, E♭, G/B, E♭, G/B. The main part of the chorus is as diatonic as you can get, using just the tonic, subdominant, and dominant chords. Everything sounds peachy. But the very last measure has that G chord in it again, both times it goes to E♭, the tonic, rather than C-minor. So now we know something is up.

Verse 2: Same as Verse 1

Chorus 2: Same as Chorus 1

Transition: C. This measure is acting as a way to smoothly transition from the key of E♭ to F. Dominant chords want to go to tonic chords, and the C chord is the dominant chord in the key of F. Moving the key up by a half-step or in this case, a whole step, is super common in musicals as a way to ramp up the energy of a song.

Verse 3: F, A/E, F, B♭min, C, F, A/E, Dmin, C. Oh-so-close to just being a transposed version of the other two verses, but there's one very important chord change. That B♭min makes this verse much darker than the last two. Diatonically in the key of F, you would expect to see a B♭ major chord, but the fact that it's a minor chord messes with your brain. There's definitely something wrong with these ponies.

Chorus 3: B♭, F, C, F, B♭, F, C, F, A♭, F, B♭. Almost just a transposed version of the other two choruses, but this time, in the last measure, the A♭ major and B♭ major chords act as the subdominant and dominant chords for the new key, which smoothly transitions us back into E♭ major for the bridge. Not much musical trickery going on in the harmony, but the lyrics have the most unsettling line in the entire song here: "You can't have a nightmare if you never dream."

Bridge (part 1): E♭, Gmin/D, Cmin, A♭min, E♭/G, E♭, Gmin/D, Cmin, F/A, B♭. It's a typical descending bass line chord progression, but once again there's a single chord that throws a wrench into things. This time it's the A♭min chord, acting in the exact same way as the B♭min chord did in Verse 3. It turns the expected diatonic IV major chord from the key into a minor chord, which makes it much darker.

Bridge (part 2): D♭, F, B♭/D, E♭, Gmin, E♭, C. This section is used to both break up the monotony of the chorus/verse pattern, as well as to smoothly transition back into the key of F for the final chorus. It starts with D♭, the ♭VII chord in the key of E♭, which we haven't heard in the whole song up to this point, then F is used as a secondary dominant into B♭, which goes back to the tonic, E♭. The transition into the new key of F begins with Gmin, a chord that is diatonic to both E♭ and F, before moving on to E♭, which can act as both the tonic of E♭ or the ♭VII of F, then finishes off with C, which is the dominant chord in the key of F, the same chord used to move from E♭ to F in the transition section. The key change is complete, we get another energy boost from going up a whole step, and we're heading on home to the final chorus.

Chorus 4: B♭, F, C, F, B♭, F, C, F , B♭, F, C, F, B♭, F, C, F, G♭, F. The first 4 chords of Chorus 3 are repeated 4 times to hammer everything home, and then it curiously goes up a half-step to a G♭ chord before returning to the tonic of F for the final hit in the song. It's another chord meant to throw the listener off a bit, showing that there's something not quite right about these ponies.

So there you have it. It might sound like a traditional happy march on the outside, and if you look at the piece as a whole, that's exactly what it is. But every so often, Daniel Ingram throws in a few chords to mess with the listener. It parallels the ponies singing the song itself. It may seem like a happy little town, and that's the image the ponies are trying to project on its visitors, but you can tell that something is wrong if you pick up on the hints hidden in the details.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:46 pm

Octavia, you are a treasure. :yay:
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 6:47 pm

That is pretty much exactly what I expected, Octavia. You are a damn hero. Thanks for that. I knew the song was mostly playing it straight, but with some off chords thrown in. Having the theory explained like that is amazing.
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Postby Factory Factory (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:18 pm

Even with it explained to me I still can't quite hear it. :v:

Thank you, Octavia, that was an awesome breakdown.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:27 pm

Thanks for the analysis, Octavia. I may not be musically minded but you describe it so well, it makes me really get invested in it. :allears:
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 7:36 pm

What I remember from my viewing was a generally happy tune (with creepy lyrics), and then at some point there was a chord out of nowhere that made me go "Damn" :starity:, and it felt as if the mask had slipped for a moment.
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Postby Musings (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:09 pm

For once Sugar Belle consented to break her rule, and she read out what was written on the wall. There was nothing there now except a single Commandment. It ran:

ALL PONIES ARE EQUAL

BUT SOME PONIES ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS
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Postby Wylie (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:26 pm

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:49 pm

UnintelGen wrote:Jesus, you have to think how long some of them have been there. Hell, the indoctrination sequence was incredibly disturbing simply because everyone in the town, even those who wished for their cutie marks back, everyone found it normal to lock a bunch of ponies up until they became 'friends'. And some of them probably went though it too.

Well, they may not agree with it, but their leader demands it -- and we know what happens to ponies who disagree with Starlight. Notice that the dissenters are usually standing in the back of the crowd scenes and grinning in terror at each other, hoping nobody senses their impure thoughts.

Fizzbuzz wrote:If children are taught to never seek this potential, though, then isn't it quite possible that they would never develop any talent in the first place? I imagine it'd be rather hard to do, especially in the pre-teen and teenage years, but if one of them is raised to hate, to fear success, then he or she will most likely never step outside of mediocrity for all the days of his or her life.

The children could certainly be brainwashed into never reaching high enough to find a calling in life, but that's when the real problem starts. They never get a cutie mark, so they never get an equal sign. Maybe at first Starlight Glimmer applauds them as the realization of their town's ideals, but then what happens when other children DO get their marks? The ones who never dreamed at all become the special ones, and either they wind up as Starlight's janissaries, or equal tattoos are mandated for all children to enforce solidarity.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:52 pm

Now that the iTunes copy is out, I feel pretty confident in saying that Double Diamond is really white. They don't appear to have even changed his eye color to even it out.

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Postby Aramek (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 9:56 pm

DD is very white and handsome. :allears: Also, all the dude ponies were really high-voiced dudes in this episode. I was looking forward to at least one of the "WELCOME"s to be all Isaac Hayesey. :lol:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:24 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:The children could certainly be brainwashed into never reaching high enough to find a calling in life, but that's when the real problem starts. They never get a cutie mark, so they never get an equal sign. Maybe at first Starlight Glimmer applauds them as the realization of their town's ideals, but then what happens when other children DO get their marks? The ones who never dreamed at all become the special ones, and either they wind up as Starlight's janissaries, or equal tattoos are mandated for all children to enforce solidarity.

I figured that the children who manage to grow up without ever getting a cutie mark would be hailed as the ultimate realization of Starlight's ideals. Now that you put it like this, though, I have to wonder if such a division would be ultimately sustainable. This would hinge on whether Starlight Glimmer could spin the situation as one where everyone should aspire to be like the blank flanks, or perhaps if her spell could create the equal mark even on a pony who had no mark to remove in the first place.
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