S05E18: Crusaders of the Lost Mark

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Re: S05E18: Crusaders of the Lost Mark

Postby Ruflux (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:27 am

PaulloDEC wrote:Image

Alternate colour scheme.

:pinkieshrug:

Upholding the proud tradition of pointing out obvious ways to improve show things I see, fandom :v:
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:29 am

Those look way better IMO.
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Postby Angel Beat (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:30 am

I must admit, I really teared up at the part where Diamond Tiara was admonished by her mother.

It reminded me that even bullies can have troublesome childhoods and that it probably was the same for the bullies in my own past.

Like the tunnel of eyes in Hurricane Fluttershy, it really hit close to home.

I'm just glad Diamond Tiara got a happy ending. :flutterunsmith:

And that is why I like MLP. For all its faults, it still resonates on a personal level.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:31 am

Again, I feel like this episode challenges our conceptions of all the CMC episodes before it, in a way I don't think any episode has done before. There are some naysayers, including in this thread, who feel the cutie marks are somewhat of a retconning, and that's fine, but I think this new interpretation of their journey is pretty solid as well.

As for the color schemes, they decided on a background with a shared color scheme of the three, I'm not sure they could have done much better and could have done much worse. Honestly I feel like it looks fine on all but AB
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Postby Youtwo (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:32 am

I was thinking, what if DT actually went down the other road to the gazebo? I know it was trying to act as symbolism and whatnot. I just found it weird that they actually gave her a choice. I guess if she did then the CMC would just talk it out with her there, but then the stuff with DT's mom wouldn't have happened. It's all very perplexing now that I think about it.
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Postby kidcoelacanth (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:32 am

PaulloDEC wrote:Image

Alternate colour scheme.

:pinkieshrug:


five million times better
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:33 am

Ruflux wrote:Upholding the proud tradition of pointing out obvious ways to improve show things I see, fandom :v:


Yolostar wrote:Those look way better IMO.


kidcoelacanth wrote:
five million times better


Thanks folks!

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I like it. It has the unified design but they're much easier to tell apart.


Cheers. I think the actual inner icons could afford to be a fair bit bigger too, but that'd require drawing new, differently shaped pieces. There's a bit too much empty shield space right now IMO.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:34 am

PaulloDEC wrote:Image

Alternate colour scheme.

:pinkieshrug:

A++ cutie marks have been given Outstanding Service Medals.

They are now S++.

:-D
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:41 am

Yeah, those need to be real :-I

Also, something I was sure would happen but didn't was Diamond Tiara throwing away her tiara when she confronted her mother. I mean wearing it just makes her cutie mark seem dumb and superficial, like her talent is having money and being classist and that's it. Throwing it away seemed like an obvious way to highlight how she's rejecting that and finding a new meaning in her cutie mark.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:41 am

Image

Image

Mmm... maybe. The three stripes clearly show the CMC as a group, whereas just the crest makes that more subtle, although that wouldn't have been a bad thing.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:45 am

Wayoshi wrote:Image

Image

Mmm... maybe. The three stripes clearly show the CMC as a group, whereas just the crest makes that more subtle, although that wouldn't have been a bad thing.


While the stripes are a good fit for a crest design, I feel like maybe they make things a bit too... busy, maybe? The crest becomes dominant over the inner design, which seems like a weird choice. Such similar colours throughout don't really help, either.

That's just me though. I'm sure we'll be seeing lots of alternate designs over the next few days!
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Postby acksed (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:53 am

I cringed through "Brotherhooves Social", but I was blindsided by this. Collective cutie marks for the CMC? Bravo, show. Bravo.

I wonder if there are others whose mark hasn't appeared, and have similarly obscure requirements? :twience:
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Postby Minty (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:58 am

Well, I didn't see that coming and I'm normally the kind of asshole who says "HA! I totally predicted this children's show!" :smugdash:

I can't be the only one who thought "obvious upcoming toy set" when I saw the playground though.

Wonder what season 6 will bring. Do Pinkie, Fluttershy, and Applejack have any life goals like the other three? Or maybe it should be all Spike all the time.
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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:59 am

Wayoshi wrote:Ultimately, despite our preconceptions about the specific talents of each CMC, this episode asks us to look back at all their episodes and see if their joint talent instead was really the primary goal all along.


Troubleshoes was foreshadowing here.
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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:01 am

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I wish we had seen Cheerilee be more assertive this episode. Its become kind of a running joke for her to just sit back and let DT be a jerk.


Actually, considering Spoiled Rich literally has her job hanging on a thin thread, it's not surprising at all. Deal with DT being a jerk or deal with leaving the rest of the class without a teacher because your flank is fired.

Bonus: The reason Pip didn't get the playground money was because Spoiled deliberately torpedoed it to make him look bad for making DT look bad.
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Postby Pocket (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:02 am

So I'm not caught up yet but I had to skip ahead because I spotted an in-progress picture on Picarto that made me highly suspect that this was The Episode and I should probably watch it before it gets any closer to being spoiled outright.

And in hindsight, it seems obvious: It's a musical episode with a cutie-mark-related title that has nothing to do with the apparent plot... how could it not be The Episode? Of course, having set the precedent of musical episodes signifying major developments (or being about Pinkie Pie, although there were only like two or three songs in "Pinkie Pride", weren't there?), they have to make the next one completely inconsequential just to mess with everyone's expectations. :smirk:

To be honest, this might be the episode that finally gets me to admit I'm not emotionally invested in this show anymore, because it completely failed to give me The Feels or anything close to it. I'm glad they've finally wrapped up the plot thread in a way that's not a total cop-out or unbelievable, but it's been dragged out for so long that I'd pretty much lost what little investment I'd ever had in it. The best CMC episodes have always been the ones like "Twilight Time", so the part where they're helping Pip get a landslide victory was far more interesting than the Obligatory Antagonist Reforming Episode #004 it segued into.

And yeah, they dropped the ball pretty hard by not going all the way with incorporating the Crusaders emblem into the cutie marks; that's like if, I dunno, one of the Wonderbolts had... wait, no, Spitfire already does, doesn't she. Except it works in her case because it still symbolizes what she does; "a shield" has no inherent connection to exploring one's talents or finding their true self or anything. So maybe part of the problem was that the emblem was too generic in the first place, but still, why use a different shield instead?

Anyway, this is all reminding me that I need to finish up giving the Ultimare Universe ponies their cutie marks, so if you'll excuse me, I have to go reassure myself that I'm not all talk when it comes to this stuff.

EDIT:

WandereringPony wrote:Bonus: The reason Pip didn't get the playground money was because Spoiled deliberately torpedoed it to make him look bad for making DT look bad.

Oh geez wow this makes the plot a whole lot thicker and yeah I can totally believe that happened offscreen.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:26 am

Minty wrote:Wonder what season 6 will bring. Do Pinkie, Fluttershy, and Applejack have any life goals like the other three? Or maybe it should be all Spike all the time.

I briefly mentioned Spike elsewhere, but yeah, after Equestria Games I'm really not sure what else there really is for him. He mostly seems to want recognition and respect, and perhaps he'd get that if he finds someone who loves him, but that might be tricky to pull off at this point in the show.
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Postby Cinders (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:26 am

I completely agree with everything Master Twig and kidc pointed out. Every single part of this episode just seemed to have no spark to it, and when the CMC got their marks at the end I was really just kind of angry.

I had to mute the song where they were running back to the schoolhouse to make it through, just like I had to do for the theme song back in 2011 before the magic took hold.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:32 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:I briefly mentioned Spike elsewhere, but yeah, after Equestria Games I'm really not sure what else there really is for him. He mostly seems to want recognition and respect, and perhaps he'd get that if he finds someone who loves him, but that might be tricky to pull off at this point in the show.


There's always some sort of resolution with Rarity and moving on. No idea if the show would ever tackle something like that, and they actually seem to have really toned back the whole crush in the last two seasons.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:33 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:I briefly mentioned Spike elsewhere, but yeah, after Equestria Games I'm really not sure what else there really is for him. He mostly seems to want recognition and respect, and perhaps he'd get that if he finds someone who loves him, but that might be tricky to pull off at this point in the show.

Spike and Twi go out to find his real mom.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:34 am

Minty wrote:Wonder what season 6 will bring. Do Pinkie, Fluttershy, and Applejack have any life goals like the other three?


Fluttershy could have an episode about overcoming her shyness! :amazing:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:39 am

So many feels for this episodes. It was so unexpected like I just did the ice bucket feels challenge.

I liked the songs. It was more about the feelings they were trying to express then anything thing else. The delivery of them was prefect.

One of the cutest parts of it for me was when Diamond Tiara was running to the school and they did a first person view of her little hoofsies in the lover part of the screen. :gotcha:

I was not expecting them to get their cutie marks. When it was happening I was thinking to myself "No way! Really? You are not trolling me, are you? You better not cop out on me! Oh my gosh! They actually did it! Yay, whoo-whoo!" :awesomedash:

I think their cutie marks are perfect for them. They all share the same special talent of helping others but they do so in their own unique ways. That is why the outside is the same but the insides are different, just like each of them in their own endeavors. It is simulated in the same manner that each of them had nightmares when faced with internal conflicts but the nightmares were each different. It is also unique in the sense that their friendship is so close that they are the only ones to have experienced this before.

The only downside to this is that this will probably be the last CMC focused episode since their story line is now completed. :v:
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 am

Soft Snow wrote:
The only downside to this is that this will probably be the last CMC focused episode since their story line is now completed. :v:

I really hope that this doesn't end up being the case because I would love to see more CMC episodes that aren't just about getting their cutiemarks.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:45 am

Soft Snow wrote:I was not expecting them to get their cutie marks. When it was happening I was thinking to myself "No way! Really? You are not trolling me, are you? You better not cop out on me! Oh my gosh! They actually did it! Yay, whoo-whoo!" :awesomedash:


For a brief moment I was like, 100% sure that they were going to wake up. And then DT and SS would come in and call them blank flanks :v:

But I'm sure that was just an acquired reaction from years of Hollywood treating the status quo as god.
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Postby Cinders (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:46 am

I want to add that the design of the cutie marks is a hot pink highlighter stamping on the face of Lauren Faust, forever.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:47 am

Yolostar wrote:I really hope that this doesn't end up being the case because I would love to see more CMC episodes that aren't just about getting their cutiemarks.


They've had tons of episodes that weren't about them getting their cutie marks and I'm sure they'll have more, that hasn't been their gimmick for a while. If anything, this opens up new story possibilities as they go around helping others get theirs :scootatrue:
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:48 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:
They've had tons of episodes that weren't about them getting their cutie marks and I'm sure they'll have more, that hasn't been their gimmick for a while. If anything, this opens up new story possibilities as they go around helping others get theirs :scootatrue:

Yeah and I like those episodes so I'd rather that they get some more in S6.
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Postby DaBatGuy (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:54 am

I just watched the episode. :twonk: Holy Shit, ... did that just happen? It feels like drunken fever dream, I mean I am a little drunk from a party I was at today but still. Even as the credits rolled I expected to either wake up or have Larson walk on-screen and declare this not canon. I was so certain this episode would only happen when the show got canned and all the dangling plot threads had to be tied up by the end of the current season, but there's at least another 26 episodes of tiny equines coming next year. Not only that but this episode gave us SS finally standing up to DT's bullshit, DT getting characterization and a redemption arc, the CMC earning their butt stamps(all at once no less), and the cherry on top being confirmation that Apple orphans are canon. While I expected most of these ideas to happen eventually I figured it would be spread over at least two or more episodes, which I think is the biggest flaw of the story. After 5 years and nearly 100 episodes of Diamond Tiara putting the "D" and the "T" in detestable it's hard to believe she could make a complete 180 in her personality with just 2 songs, although TBH she's actually really adorable for once in her "woe is me/first world problems" song. Still it was an amazing experience, probably what Magical Mystery Cure was suppose to feel like if the marketing hadn't spoiled that surprise. If this is AKR's final horse episode she did so like a BAMF, kudos. :jingo:
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 4:10 am

DaBatGuy wrote:If this is AKR's final horse episode she did so like a BAMF, kudos. :jingo:

She actually has one more coming up :spike101:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 6:11 am

I think we know what Scootaloo REALLY wanted for a cutie mark...

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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:01 am

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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:03 am

SlateSlabrock wrote: :-D emotes



Image Love this one.
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:25 am

All of those are good. Mods please implement all of those tia. The faces in this episode were just too fucking good.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:42 am

kidcoelacanth wrote:i'm going off on this because the cmc were the last thing i gave a dang about on this show and they botched this pretty hard, so

as lazy pointed out in skype, which i hadn't considered: the fact that the whole thing with cutie marks is that they express individuality and then these three all get THE SAME ONE sails so damn wide of the goalposts. especially when you spent actual time building up the fact that they do have unique talents of their own


See, I don't think anyone actually said anywhere that the purpose of a cutie mark is individuality. It's an easy assumption to make, but it really isn't the point at all. Sometimes your special talent is in working as part of a team, and that's clearly what the CMCs' calling is. More so than singing/scootering/potion-making anyway.

If you were disappointed in these cutie marks because they negate individuality, I think maybe you headcanon'd yourself. :-I


So I had a long and physically demanding day and after dinner I completely zonked out without even remotely having the energy to catch up on the episode ( :chug: ), and then woke up at 2AM and decided hey fuck it, let's watch some ponies.

... :ponydrugs:

This idea of the CMCs all getting the same cutie mark, indeed maybe even the CMC logo as a cutie mark, is one I've seen come up a lot in fanfiction; so really the only thing that came as a surprise to me is that the show actually went ahead and did it, and did it in such a way as not to destroy everyone's fanfic ideas but really to canonize them. In fact I'm pretty sure I've seen the idea floated as far back as S1 that the CMCs' destiny was to redeem DT/SS. I strongly believe there's some fanfic writer out there right now going :seethe: HEEEEEEEY

But I like that they gave this nice bookend episode to Rogers to do, out of deference to a desire to have one of the founding staff handle it. I like that that's one of the things McCarthy and co. think about. Now, I'm not that wild about how some of the songs turned out, but I think that may be down more to Ingram's stuff getting kind of samey than to AKR's traditional lyrical clumsiness; I was actually quite impressed by DT's introspective song, which had some really nice lyrical ideas and flourishes. But I think Ingram's songs are getting this kind of "default" sound to them where they're like lazy clones of Hearts As Strong As Horses, with that mandolin/orchestra arrangement and no obvious hook in the chorus. You can't really hum these songs. They're nice, but they're not as innovative or ambitious as, say, Steven Universe songs; and they certainly don't have the earworm qualities of the Winter Wrap Ups and So Many Wonderses of S1. Those almost feel like they're from another show entirely at this point.

But hey—it has been half a decade and over a hundred episodes. I love how they animated AB's little eyebrow-raise on "For a while now". Great way to drive home the goddamn understatement. :amazing:

So yeah, about the only beef I have is with the music, and it's a minor beef at that. A small beef. A filet mignon medallion. And yeah, okay, so the crusader cutie marks aren't the prettiest things in the world, but let's be frank here: most ponies' cutie marks are nonsensical or ugly. I'm just as glad the CMCs' ones are a little on the inscrutable and ambiguous side. If there's one thing cutie marks are "supposed" to be, it's the basis for a story. As opposed to being some kind of comic-book representation of someone's life. I've never been that enthralled with the idea of cutie marks that are overly literal, except when it's used for comic effect (like Maud's rock, or Snips and Snails whose cutie marks are just like logo versions of their names). So in that sense I like that these three have some fairly exceptional ones that stand out from all the rest and look a little out of place. You know why? Because they've just accomplished something almost as unprecedented and powerful as Twilight did in MMC: they discovered a new aspect of friendship magic, the kind that comes from joint effort in service of a common spontaneous goal of helping others with their special talents. The CMCs actually kind of are superheroes now, a little bit, and they're following in their sisters' footsteps. This show is doing some interesting things with the idea of protagonist powers; without ever stepping up and saying This Is The Chosen One for any particular purpose, they've made our six leads and their three understudies into pioneers in-universe, discoverers of new mechanics for how the world of Equestria works, whether it be Twilight coming up with new (wrong) theories of unicorn magic versus zebra smoke and mirrors, or digivolving the Elements of Harmony into a thing that allows their bearers to project their own elemental strengths onto random passers-by, or the CMCs inventing the concept of cutie mark counseling. I'm certainly not saying any of this was planned out from the beginning—and honestly I'm lolling at the very idea that the CMCs' "arc" has been handled perfectly, since okay sure it has now been wrapped up well and in retrospect it looks like they did the best they could, but you and I and everybody knows they were making it up one season at a time and they probably didn't know they would end it at all until they got S5 greenlit, and I'll bet at the time they wrote this they probably didn't know S6 would happen either for that matter. So I'm gobsmacked that they were able to make any part of it look like a coherent arc, and the fact that they were able to pull out this beautiful conclusion to it here, randomly, in the middle of a season, torpedoing everyone's expectations except maybe those who thought the CMCs would get this story in the penultimate episode of what would be the final season of the show (with the finale being Mane 6-focused of course), is nothing short of a coup. I love that it took everyone by surprise.

Especially those who weren't expecting to be up at 3:30 AM crying over pony. One of the things you're supposed to do in the days and weeks following Lasik is to constantly hydrate your eyes with artificial tears several times during the day and night. I think I can safely skip this one.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:45 am



It's kind of endearing how when the show draws a "weepy mouth" like this, they just make a completely artless scribble out of it, rather than even like the regular undulating "burp lips" from the Simpsons. They just grab their tablet stylus and tape it to a rat and let it run around on their desk.


E:
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 8:08 am

Headless Horse wrote:But I like that they gave this nice bookend episode to Rogers to do, out of deference to a desire to have one of the founding staff handle it. I like that that's one of the things McCarthy and co. think about. Now, I'm not that wild about how some of the songs turned out, but I think that may be down more to Ingram's stuff getting kind of samey than to AKR's traditional lyrical clumsiness; I was actually quite impressed by DT's introspective song, which had some really nice lyrical ideas and flourishes. But I think Ingram's songs are getting this kind of "default" sound to them where they're like lazy clones of Hearts As Strong As Horses, with that mandolin/orchestra arrangement and no obvious hook in the chorus. You can't really hum these songs. They're nice, but they're not as innovative or ambitious as, say, Steven Universe songs; and they certainly don't have the earworm qualities of the Winter Wrap Ups and So Many Wonderses of S1. Those almost feel like they're from another show entirely at this point.


There's definitely an established sound for certain characters (or groups of characters, in this case) that gets repeated from season to season. You can see it with Rarity's songs (Art of the Dress -> Becoming Popular -> Generosity -> Rules of Rarity), Applejack's (Raise This Barn -> Apples to the Core) or Pinkie's (not even going to list these). I guess they're a little resistant to breaking those trends without a thematic reason to do so.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:21 am

Cinders wrote:I want to add that the design of the cutie marks is a hot pink highlighter stamping on the face of Lauren Faust, forever.


I'm pretty sure she doesn't really care. She has her own projects now and at best Horsies were a stepping stone towards that. A stepping stone with some creepy fans :applejargh: but that's the internet for you.

It's having the CMC as a trio whose own talents combine in to a super talent and memories that will last their whole lives, no matter what happens afterwards. They could do a Next Generation thing and ancient grannie aged last CMC standing could always just look at her cutie mark and remember her beloved childhood friends and the adventures they went on, and the good things they did for others. :saddershy:

And this is getting depressing and I really don't want to go into last CMC talking with Princess Sparks who herself remembers friends lost to age and time, only really her and Spike carrying the days of Ponyville forwards from lost decades... :cry:
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:00 am

PaulloDEC wrote:Image


If the marks looked like this instead I think there'd be a lot less moaning about the ending, I'm not keen on what they ended up with but oh well :pinkieshrug:

Anyway, the design of their marks is my only real gripe with this episode, I thought the rest of it was really great, possibly even the best of S5 to date (I'll need to ponder that some more, I've literally only just watched it).Musical episodes aren't usually my thing but I definitely like this a ton more than MMC and Pinkie Pride.

I really liked it when Silver Spoon gave Tiara a taste of her own medicine, I had a feeling they were going to do that when DT kept having a go at SS before the election. I think this is the first time DT has been subjected to a rant from one of the other fillies like this, it was perfect that SS should be the one to do it.

I like that we've seen DT's Mum now, now we know where she gets it from :scheming: . Looks like it was Spoiled who coined the phrase "Blank flanks" after all. I wonder how Filthy and Spoiled get on behind closed doors in the family home?

One of the the biggest surprises for me (almost as big as the cutie marks) was Applejack "If Mum and Dad were here they'd be so proud", with the clear implication that they're dead. I think it's great that they've done it but I was under the impression that they wouldn't be allowed to do that.

And yeah, Cheerilee is definitely no disciplinarian. Agreed with whoever wrote that Spoiled deliberately sabotaged Pip's playground equipment request.

Anyway, I hope that the CMC, DT, SS and the rest still get S6 episodes after this.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:54 am

Related to what HH was saying, now I want to know if Meghan and the gang thought there was a very real chance of S5 being the last season, thus they wanted to get this done before the show might possibly end. After all, I get the feeling that Hasbro never asked for this, since if they had then we would have likely been seeing toys of them with their cutie marks monthis in advance.
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Postby Perrydotto (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:13 pm

Just watched this. Fuck, I cried a little. Maximum :flutterunsmith:

One of the best episodes of the whole damn show. It just all works, and the emotional payoff to the Cutie Mark Crusader storyline (a 5 season-spanning character arc, basically) is immense.

Thanks for going about this the best possible way, show. :awesomedash:

PS: The cutie marks look a bit odd at first, but honestly, I think my biggest issue is that I'm just not used to seeing them with cutie marks. The design could be better, but I like it and I think it'll grow on me even further.
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