S05E07: Make New Friends But Keep Discord

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Re: S05E07: Make New Friends But Keep Discord

Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 1:09 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
You didn't like his turn in Twilight's Kingdom? That bit almost justified KCaFO for me, because it showed just how easily Discord could be swayed back to his old ways. That while he is capable of changing for the better, his callous nature and thirst for chaos still lurks beneath the surface.


It was fine, it just wasn't funny :-I
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 1:43 am

I get the feeling that the Discord arc is: "Hey, is JDL free to do a discord ep? Awesome, write us a discord ep. I dunno what, but it's gotta be ready by the time he's free to record."
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Postby Corpy (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 2:41 am

Pingcode wrote:I get the feeling that the Discord arc is: "Hey, is JDL free to do a discord ep? Awesome, write us a discord ep. I dunno what, but it's gotta be ready by the time he's free to record."

After watching this episode, that seems to be the level of thought that does into it.

Maud was great and Tree Hugger reminds me of actual hippie burnouts I've known... even Celestia was good in this episode. it's a shame their great moments got bogged down by the total garbage that was an episode centered on low-effort Discord shenanigans.
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Postby theGECK (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 3:40 am

Why does everybody say that Maud was great? Her burn wasn't even that good, and outside of that she was only a prop for Pinkie! What did I miss?
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 3:40 am

theGECK wrote:Why does everybody say that Maud was great? Her burn wasn't even that good, and outside of that she was only a prop for Pinkie! What did I miss?

The burn was on Discord, that's a huge part of it. :-I :maud:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 3:56 am

I thought it was a good burn, made great by the deadpan delivery.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 4:13 am

I keep grinning ear-to-ear when I think of Discord's crack at Twilight's flying and Celestia's giggling and Twilight's HEY! :twonk:

That's, like, exactly where I hoped this show would be once it'd grown up with itself over five years.
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Postby Davyinatoga (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 5:23 am

Discord's redemption arc is pretty solid and convincing. It was shaky at first, but it only gets stronger in retrospect with each Discord episode. He's a selfish dick, but it's clearly sinking in that losing some of that selfishness is key to understanding the concept of friendship.

So when does the show go back to basics and we get

Dear Princess Twilight,
[stuff and things re: friendship].
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?
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 6:14 am

You know, that would be an interesting storyline for the show to do. Maybe they could do something like that next season.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 7:41 am

Random observation: Discord has an odd accent change at the very beginning when he says, "But that's not all. When I went to look for them again..." Almost sounds like a Christopher Walken impression.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 9:01 am

Headless Horse wrote:I keep grinning ear-to-ear when I think of Discord's crack at Twilight's flying and Celestia's giggling and Twilight's HEY! :twonk:

That's, like, exactly where I hoped this show would be once it'd grown up with itself over five years.


Two of my all-time favourite Twilight moments have been about other characters taking the piss out of her. Her reactions are always priceless.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 9:24 am

Hope that we get to see more Celestia moments like this in the season. I was actually surprised to see her again and Nicole's performance was awesome.
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Postby Jill (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 9:55 am

PaulloDEC wrote:The trouble with KCaFO for me is pretty simple.

1) I don't believe for a second that the Discord we saw in Return of Harmony could be reformed in the way this episode suggests, or even at all
2) As a result of this, Fluttershy looks astonishingly reckless for giving him so much rope
Do you suppose this is exactly the kind of cynical reasoning KCFO stands against in the first place?

Nearly everyone had reduced Discord to some wholly evil elemental thing that creates chaos everywhere with no rhyme or reason, but there is really no such thing as a being that operates on nothing. That's not even how chaos itself operates, because basic cause-and-effect relationships still apply to confusion and disarray. There's no definition of chaos which suggests a lack of any cause, only a lack of understanding that cause. One thing game development has burned into my mind is that chaos is intended to defy understanding but that never means it absolutely does. Someone is bound to figure it out eventually.

Discord doesn't have his motivations spelled out for us in RoH but that doesn't mean there are none. For a being that can supposedly cross dimensions, he seems awfully attached to the one where magical jewelry could turn him to stone for at least 1000 years at a time. It's not really hard for me to buy the very first explanation that comes to mind: He wanted to be a part of pony society in some way, but pony society didn't want him as long as he was all about making a mess, so he figured he had to become their ruler or be statue'd trying. Celestia has probably known of his basic desire for a long time, but she needed someone understanding enough to embody the element of kindness before she could help him to coexist.

Wayoshi wrote:It was hard to fully buy Discord's reformation at the time with that ambiguous ending KCaFO had, also.
PaulloDEC wrote:You didn't like his turn in Twilight's Kingdom? That bit almost justified KCaFO for me, because it showed just how easily Discord could be swayed back to his old ways. That while he is capable of changing for the better, his callous nature and thirst for chaos still lurks beneath the surface.
It was pretty obvious to me that both of these things were intentional as soon as KCFO aired. There was plenty of speculation in the episode thread that Discord would naturally come to some kind of relapse, because if anyone seriously thought at the time that they were trying to equate Discord's newfound desire to keep his only friend with a complete reformation then, um, why???
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 10:06 am

Jill wrote:Do you suppose this is exactly the kind of cynical reasoning KCFO stands against in the first place?

Nearly everyone had reduced Discord to some wholly evil elemental thing that creates chaos everywhere with no rhyme or reason, but there is really no such thing as a being that operates on nothing. That's not even how chaos itself operates, because basic cause-and-effect relationships still apply to confusion and disarray. There's no definition of chaos which suggests a lack of any cause, only a lack of understanding that cause. One thing game development has burned into my mind is that chaos is intended to defy understanding but that never means it absolutely does. Someone is bound to figure it out eventually.

Discord doesn't have his motivations spelled out for us in RoH but that doesn't mean there are none. For a being that can supposedly cross dimensions, he seems awfully attached to the one where magical jewelry could turn him to stone for at least 1000 years at a time. It's not really hard for me to buy the very first explanation that comes to mind: He wanted to be a part of pony society in some way, but pony society didn't want him as long as he was all about making a mess, so he figured he had to become their ruler or be statue'd trying. Celestia has probably known of his basic desire for a long time, but she needed someone understanding enough to embody the element of kindness before she could help him to coexist.

It was pretty obvious to me that both of these things were intentional as soon as KCFO aired. There was plenty of speculation in the episode thread that Discord would naturally come to some kind of relapse, because if anyone seriously thought at the time that they were trying to equate Discord's newfound desire to keep his only friend with a complete reformation then, um, why???


I can't fault your reasoning, but at the time it just didn't work for me. Everything we knew about Discord at that point suggested he was essentially a god; eons old, staggeringly powerful and responsible for at least one takeover of the nation. The suggestion that a malevolent being with that kind of stature could be turned around so easily felt like a huge anticlimax to me, and it dragged his character down from a force of nature to a bit of a pushover.

It's cool that you were able to see his relapse coming, but I'm not sure the episode really hints at it. I've not watched it in a while, but the way I remember it his reformation seemed to be pitched entirely straight and sincere.

Anyway, later episodes have gone a long way towards repairing the perceived damage for me, so I'm pretty happy with where it all landed us.
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Postby Thaddeus (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 12:20 pm

I made my opinion on Discord's reformation known long ago.
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Postby Jill (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 1:28 pm

Mic Roe Pony wrote:I made my opinion on Discord's reformation known long ago.
Opinion? :v: Reads more like a recollection of facts with stress added to things people often refuse to consider.

One thing though:
... after all: it’s not chaos if people aren’t upset by it in some measure.
Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong but I don't think this is true??? Harmony and chaos alike can be observed in just about anything and neither is necessarily good or bad. Without harmony you have no canvas, and without chaos you have no creation.

e: Dang, it's almost as if the elements of harmony and the spirit of chaos inevitably have to coexist. :ponder:
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 1:28 pm

Besides Discord's crack on Twilight (and Celestia's giggle), one of the best parts of the episode was right in the beginning when Spike was just waking up. Discord's delivery of the line, "Where's Twilight?" was delivered with such malice and anger it seemed to set a heck of a tone for the rest of the episode. Most of the characters don't always cooperate with Discord when he asks them something, giving him sarcastic responses or little jabs just to spite him a little bit, but Spike was so totally freaked out he went immediately to the truth and told him she was in Canterlot. And then, without a word or a smart-ass response, Discord glared at him and just slunk away, leaving Spike all freaked out and all of us going, "Whoa. What was that about?" That whole exchange was a really great and scary piece of animation and voice acting.

And then the rest of the episode (and especially Discord) lost that tone. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 2:26 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:Besides Discord's crack on Twilight (and Celestia's giggle), one of the best parts of the episode was right in the beginning when Spike was just waking up. Discord's delivery of the line, "Where's Twilight?" was delivered with such malice and anger it seemed to set a heck of a tone for the rest of the episode. Most of the characters don't always cooperate with Discord when he asks them something, giving him sarcastic responses or little jabs just to spite him a little bit, but Spike was so totally freaked out he went immediately to the truth and told him she was in Canterlot. And then, without a word or a smart-ass response, Discord glared at him and just slunk away, leaving Spike all freaked out and all of us going, "Whoa. What was that about?" That whole exchange was a really great and scary piece of animation and voice acting.

And then the rest of the episode (and especially Discord) lost that tone. :pinkieshrug:


This and the whole 'Sorry about you getting in the way of, you know, my Wrath.' Makes me think of trying to teach an old pagan god trying to make it in the modern world. My first thought at the end up the episode was literally : "Aw, Jehovah's learning to make nice!"

:allears:

While I tend to agree that I don't see RoH Discord ever being redeemed, I understand why they brought him back (star power, De Lacie presumably wanting to come back, ect) and I don't mind how they're exploring him. I prefer when he's being more of a trickster mentor as he was in Princess Twilight Sparkle, but this was fun too.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 3:16 pm

I really need to not go all over the place looking at reactions because it's increasingly obvious to me some people are just wound up way too tight. In this particular case, I'm running into Celestia hate for sabotaging the Gala. Apparently some people would have prefered the normal Gala vs a Pinkie style party.

All well and good, but considering the intended audience, I think they can relate to having to hang around stodgy, formal settings for adults and dream about messing things up. I really feel that's a big part of what is going on in these Gala episodes.
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Postby Thaddeus (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 3:17 pm

Jill wrote:Opinion? :v: Reads more like a recollection of facts with stress added to things people often refuse to consider.


I'm not sure whether that's supposed to be a compliment or not, but I'm considering it as much. That was more or less the point, really. Sort of a persuasive essay on the issue. I do feel it gets my opinion across, though: I think it works.

Jill wrote:One thing though: "...after all, it's not chaos if people are upset by it in some measure"
Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong but I don't think this is true??? Harmony and chaos alike can be observed in just about anything and neither is necessarily good or bad. Without harmony you have no canvas, and without chaos you have no creation.


True though that may be, 9 times out of 10, the average person's definition of 'Chaos' upsets them when they're confronted with it. Plus, this is more how I think Discord probably looks at Chaos, though that may be changing with episodes like this one. I mean think about it: Discord was Hella annoyed when Tree Hugger wasn't bothered by his shenanigans at the Gala. Although the intended recipient of his antics wasn't affected, he, in turn, was.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 5:41 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:Besides Discord's crack on Twilight (and Celestia's giggle), one of the best parts of the episode was right in the beginning when Spike was just waking up. Discord's delivery of the line, "Where's Twilight?" was delivered with such malice and anger it seemed to set a heck of a tone for the rest of the episode.
[...]
And then the rest of the episode (and especially Discord) lost that tone. :pinkieshrug:

I am fond of "Why is this so late?"
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 5:47 pm

And also the way the mailpony sort of flails uselessly through the void :smirk:
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Postby theGECK (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 6:03 pm

I have trouble with this episode because of the mail pony just...going away. It seems horrible and cruel. I'm going to believe that the monster grabbed the pony and brought him back to safety! :v:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 6:06 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:Besides Discord's crack on Twilight (and Celestia's giggle), one of the best parts of the episode was right in the beginning when Spike was just waking up. Discord's delivery of the line, "Where's Twilight?" was delivered with such malice and anger it seemed to set a heck of a tone for the rest of the episode.


I liked this too.

In general I like the interpretation that Discord is dangerous as hell and that even if his reformation seems to be going well, everybody is seriously playing with fire. Like, that mailpony is probably dead, right? (And even if he isn't, Discord doesn't give a shit about his survival either way.)

It's like being friends with Bruce Banner. Or more accurately, it's like being friends with the kid from the Twilight Zone who could banish people to the cornfield.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 6:08 pm

theGECK wrote:I have trouble with this episode because of the mail pony just...going away. It seems horrible and cruel. I'm going to believe that the monster grabbed the pony and brought him back to safety! :v:


He was an Earth Pony, so he probably just punched it into submission and then rode it home.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 6:29 pm

There's always been a lot of fanart of Fluttershy as a stoner, but after seeing her interact with a real stoner like Tree Hugger it's like, "haha no Fluttershy is still way too dorky." :modesty:

On the subject of Tree Hugger as a stoner, it's true that she's a grab-bag of pop culture hippie cliches and therefore we're all just inferring the stoner aspect because it fits the stereotype. But then they did the whole "nice to meet you, I'm Tree Hugger" "But you've MET me BEFORE!" and I'm thinking "yeah that horse is high."
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 7:21 pm

PictishBeast wrote:There's always been a lot of fanart of Fluttershy as a stoner, but after seeing her interact with a real stoner like Tree Hugger it's like, "haha no Fluttershy is still way too dorky." :modesty:

On that same note, I've never been able to think of Fluttershy as a complete hippie, unlike Tree Hugger. As much as she loves animals and cares for the environment, I think she still has just a bit too much taste in fashion to really go into that lifestyle. Like, I could imagine her having some big, flowing tie-dye shirts in her usual shirt rotation (if she did normally wear clothes, of course), but there's no way she would let herself go to where she's letting her hair form into dreadlocks and such.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 8:12 pm

Yea Flutts never struck me as a 'hippy' before either, she's just that kinda awkward kid who likes dealing with animals more than others a lot of times. And yea, she's way too big a dork to ever get high or whatever, she's just the friend who nods politely while you ramble about...well waterfall auras...
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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 8:17 pm

shotgunbadger wrote:Yea Flutts never struck me as a 'hippy' before either, she's just that kinda awkward kid who likes dealing with animals more than others a lot of times. And yea, she's way too big a dork to ever get high or whatever, she's just the friend who nods politely while you ramble about...well waterfall auras...

She's never grossed out by nature or animal stuff, and she wasn't by The Smooze either, so I think licking toads or eating mushrooms would probably be her preferred way of getting high. :snoop:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 8:41 pm

Image Mah little sister's all grown up!

Image Can Ah have some zap apple cider now?

:bluh: You ain't that grown up.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 8:45 pm

PonyHag714 wrote:Image Mah little sister's all grown up!

I thought AJ only cried on the inside :squintyjack:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 9:06 pm

Octavia wrote:I thought AJ only cried on the inside :squintyjack:

That's not crying, it's liquid pride.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 9:11 pm

PonyHag714 wrote:Image Mah little sister's all grown up!

Image Can Ah have some zap apple cider now?

:bluh: You ain't that grown up.


:scootatrue: Can I have some cider?

:v: Sure, what's the worst that can happen?

:cutealoo: I CAN SEE THROUGH TIME.

:angry:

:v: What? I drank it all the time when I was her age and I turned out fine!
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 9:58 pm

Another thing I liked in this episode:

Image

One of the first things I ever liked about ANY episode:

Image

Even with her hair done up and wearing a fancy dress that's definitely Twilight's "cut the bullshit" face.

Also: Tree Hugger is green? Is it an earthy, eco friendly vibe of green? Don't green horses look weird?
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 10:41 pm

PictishBeast wrote:Also: Tree Hugger is green? Is it an earthy, eco friendly vibe of green? Don't green horses look weird?

Tree Hugger's coat is green, yes, making me think of the same green color that peas have. Her hair is red, with occasional orange stripes in some of the dreadlocks. For me the feeling specifically of her hair color is reminiscent of a tree in autumn. (Incidentally, the tree in her cutie mark has red leaves, a very slightly brighter red than her hair.)
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Image

The top image is a screenshot from the show; the bottom, the same image with simulated deuteranopia. In the second one Tree Hugger loses pretty much all distinction between her hair and her coat, to where they look like two or three shades of the same color. As I see the first image, the contrast between her green coat and red hair is highly distinctive, but still pleasant-looking. I should also note that her eyebrows are the same red as the outlines for her hair, not a shade of her green coat.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 10:48 pm

I found Tree Hugger's hippy schtick to be a lot more believable here than I would in most media because Equestria is a land full of magic and stuff. It's quite probable that a waterfall does have an aura detectible by those particularly gifted. Her being to gauge The Smooze's mood and come up with an appropriate relaxation technique just by looking at it is evidence enough of that.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 11:40 pm

Octavia wrote:I thought AJ only cried on the inside :squintyjack:

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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 11:48 pm

Maybe crying for joy is different? :squintyjack:

But I'm pretty sure she cried in The Last Roundup and Apple Family Reunion too.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Mon May 18, 2015 11:56 pm

She only cries outwardly when it has to do with family.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Tue May 19, 2015 12:00 am

The whole Applejack crying-on-the-inside thing was a one-time gag that was both funny given the context and a callback to Season 1's "socially oblivious Twilight," nothing more. :pinkieshrug:
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