S05E17: Brotherhooves Social

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Re: S05E17: Brotherhooves Social

Postby Mr. Big (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 5:41 pm

Something that occurred to me. Last time, Apple Bloom didn't even participate in the Sisterhooves Social because she let Sweetie Belle "borrow" Applejack. That really illustrates her disappointment more when Applejack had to leave during the event.
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Postby Marimo (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:05 pm

The Doctor wrote:

I don't think so. I think the ending would have been just as effective had we seen Big Mac compete normally, but screw it up since he hasn't been practicing with Apple Bloom for weeks. Apple Bloom still would have went away disappointed after the Social and lead into the same ending.

I thought him disguising himself as Orchard Blossom worked as a metaphor for his inner problem, that he wasn't expressing what's troubling him. Much like how he kept his desire to be Apple Bloom's hero hidden, he also went with a method that hid his actual self in the competition. By making this new character, cousin Orchard Blossom, he feels he can talk more freely than he normally would have, and the disguise instead of just going as himself distances the idea of him wanting to fill in Applejack's role himself. Plus Apple Bloom kept talking about how great a sister she has with Applejack, so Big Mac tries to adopt a female disguise in order to fill in a sisterly role too since that's what Apple Bloom is so focused on, instead of being himself and filling in his role as a brother for Apple Bloom.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 6:19 pm

Reactions!

  • Now we know Big Mac has a heart. We can hear it breaking. :fluttersmith:
  • And of course they have an anvil in the barn. Their granny is a smith!
  • "But you said it was a false alarm!!" Fuckin' kids. :applejargh: But "Your extreme awesomeness is backfirin' on me!" is fantastic.
  • Some great Big Mac faces this time!
  • Holy hell, who's the pegasus with the two-story mane? :starity:
  • OK, time to see where the crossdressing gimmick goes. But I like the ep so far; everyone's motivations bringing us to this point makes sense.
  • The CMC are not fooled for an instant. :lol:
  • If there actually is an Orchard Blossom and this isn't Big Mac, I just want to say that I called it.
  • Big Mac doesn't care about the dress, he just loves cosplaying as somepony who talks.
  • Peter New is making this episode work. It's successful in being funny and sweet.
  • All the ponies are disturbed by the song, except Dizzy Twister who's totally into it.
  • Big Mac with a "Best Night Ever" level of determination.
  • Scootadash in full effect!
  • Same events as last year, which is pretty cool.
  • Oh man, Big Mac's totally gonna endzone-spike his sister!
  • Crying traumatized chickens.
  • Awesome, Big Mac gets disqualified not for being a stallion, but for being a lunkhead.
  • Aw, such a sweet reconciliation scene. :3:

I liked this one a lot!
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 7:06 pm

:awkward: Whyyy don't I just let you finish signing in?
:shutup: But don't think me and Scootaloo are gonna take it easy on you just because you're a stallion!

A pony doll.
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The craziest hair
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Matching bandannas, matching shirts, matching sweatbands, matching hats
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:07 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:blind_bag_collecting.jpg

There were a lot of background pony groupings and shots that were copied directly from the original season 2 Sisterhooves Social episode, such as the ponies on the grandstands: Notice how they're all S1-era background characters, and almost all are duplicated? The animators hadn't really started making a lot of new background characters until around season 3. The animators did the same thing with the "distance shots" of the ponies in the Trixie episodes, except they omitted Derpy from the S3 Trixie episode, probably because of the nonsense drama going on at the time.

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Some people might think it's lazy animating or taking a shortcut; I kinda like to think of it as an homage to the previous episode they're calling back to. After season 3, background pony duplicates have been very rare, and this episode's duplicates make me think it's a callback.

It would've been great if Celestia and Luna flew in near the end and were like, "Oh, are we too late?" It would've taken away from the great ending, but it would've been a nice gag ala the "What do you mean you left it on the counter?!" joke from Slice of Life.
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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:15 pm

Agreed. That's definitely an homage to Sisterhooves Social.

Overall it was a decent episode. Made me smile a few times, but I think it'll be a bit forgettable down the road.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:17 pm

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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:18 pm

Honestly, if the judges had just gone "Yeah we know you're a stallion, you can drop the act" and Big Mac competed anyway, the ep would've been much better. As it is, you have a stellar ending preceded by rather lackluster antics. Too bad.

I'm not a huge fan of Polsky in general, but this hasn't been a good season for him.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:58 pm

rudecyrus wrote:Honestly, if the judges had just gone "Yeah we know you're a stallion, you can drop the act" and Big Mac competed anyway, the ep would've been much better. As it is, you have a stellar ending preceded by rather lackluster antics. Too bad.

The dilemma is how to tie the rest of the episode together. If they just had Big Mac fail at the events, people would complain about the show making him clumsy (insert "Spike at Your Service" complaints here). But if the Social doesn't pose any problem for him, what's the conflict?

Applebloom being embarrassed by his antics is the conflict driver in this episode. He has to keep trying harder and harder because just being there for her isn't enough. They might also have decided that having one guy join the race and win the whole thing would send the wrong message.

The better path is probably to be very clear that they don't win because they haven't practiced together, but that seems like it'd frustrate Applebloom even more -- why does she have to compete with her sibling who ISN'T her perfect sister Applejack? I already wasn't getting a very forgiving vibe from her at the end of the race, so I don't know if placing all of the blame on Mac's inability to compete would work better.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 10:55 pm

:v: I like the continuity to "Fall Weather Friends" by showing that Big Mac's a big lousy cheater just like his Sister.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:52 pm

Let's face it, there's something about having Rainbow Dash in a contest that just turns ponies into cheaters.

One reason why the "Orchard Blossom" plot worked as well as it did, I think, was the gender-neutral nature of the events. Although the Social is meant for sisters, none of the tasks are particularly or stereotypically female. Thus we're spared painful gags where Big Mac has to, I dunno, knit or whatever. And this also helps underscore the (very central) point that Mac in this episode undergoes no hardships except those he creates for himself.

And I was joking about cosplay in my earlier post, but I was right and it actually is very :allears: that Mac didn't just put on a wig, he created a persona which is talkative and outgoing and different from the background role he feels life has assigned him. Even when it probably would have been safer to speak as little as possible. But Mac didn't want to just get through the day without being caught, he wanted to really be, in every way, the awesome perfect pony he thinks AJ is and Apple Bloom deserves.

I do wonder where the dress came from though.
Last edited by Mechanical Ape on Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 03, 2015 11:56 pm

I was hoping this one would surprise me, and it kinda did. The tropes I think most of us were expecting were present, but the whole thing was self-aware enough, and with a strong enough emotional story running underneath it to balance out the cliches.

As guy-in-drag stories go, this one wasn't half bad IMO. It could've been an absolute train-wreck, so the fact that it actually ended up more good than bad is a credit to Polsky.

Also:

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No, wait camera, don't go over there! Dash and Scootaloo are doing a really cool... ah, dammit.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:23 am

Mechanical Ape wrote:One reason why the "Orchard Blossom" plot worked as well as it did, I think, was the gender-neutral nature of the events. Although the Social is meant for sisters, none of the tasks are particularly or stereotypically female.

But Big Mac started barreling through obstacles at the end. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby RudeCyrus (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:43 am

Wayoshi wrote:But Big Mac started barreling through obstacles at the end. :pinkieshrug:


I don't think that scene meant to say, "Big Mac is a strong he-man" but rather "Big Mac is so focused on crossing the finish line first that he breaks stuff."
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:34 am

It still shows they didn't really design the Social with stallions in mind, even if that wasn't the point. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:34 am

Mechanical Ape wrote:I do wonder where the dress came from though.


Oh come on, they spent the whole cold open showing the attic where everything could conceivably come from. :v:
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:36 am

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I think this is cheating. Is this cheating? :ponder:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:38 am

Wayoshi wrote:It still shows they didn't really design the Social with stallions in mind, even if that wasn't the point. :pinkieshrug:

He also immediately got disqualified for busting up the course. Rainbow Dash could easily do that but didn't. Mac did because he was completely focused on winning -- to the exclusion of sportsmanship or even Applebloom enjoying the event.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:48 am

Headless Horse wrote:
Oh come on, they spent the whole cold open showing the attic where everything could conceivably come from. :v:

Well then, I want the story of the Apple Family mare the dress belonged to!
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 am

Anyway: I don't know what I expected this episode to be, but this sure wasn't it. The drag race ( :v: ) was kind of an inevitability under cartoon law, and on one level it felt pretty lazy and predictable, but then on another level Big Mac jabbering his head off all the time kept me guessing as to whether the episode was building to a stock-standard "He gets found out and all is lost" ending, or something else entirely. The fact that it was the latter is plenty to make it work for me; they really did try, and they kind of knew they had a strong-as-hell antecedent episode to follow up on in terms of dramatic twists, so they faked toward one obvious twist and gave us a totally different one. I like that.

(I also really like Big Mac calling Rainbow Dash and Scootaloo out on their tenuous "sisterhood". Mac and Dash have dirt on each other, if they're gonna play that game...!)

But really all that kind of fades into the background for me, because the biggest eye-opener here is far and away the big emotional scenes—the end especially, but also that nice quiet one near the beginning with AJ and Big Mac in the barn. Big Mac doing chores, cleaning up tools. The two grown-up siblings having a chat about family matters. Big Mac being evasive, and using Eeyup/Nope not for comedic value but because he's actually trying to be tight-lipped. Watching that scene I suddenly felt like I was watching a completely different show, or maybe like a theatrical movie or something. It sure didn't feel like a slapstick comedy cartoon, nor even a show with occasional delusions that more exposition = intricate mature storytelling (i.e. Made in Manehattan). It felt like a show that flat-out wanted to sit down and watch a sunset with us; it wanted to talk about emotions and relationships and the bittersweetness of growing up and of living in a celebrity's shadow. It wanted to step back and take a look at all the things that have gone on in this show in the past five years and see what kind of effect all these monsters and battles and transformations and coronations and stained glass windows might have actually had on some normal simple country folks who never asked to be in any kind of spotlight to begin with and would have been content to live the nice happy quiet life they were living before Twilight ever came sailing into town.

This episode might not be any kind of masterpiece, but it's one of the most self-aware things the show has ever done; Polsky seems to have wanted to go super-meta, and not in the jokey fanservicey Slice of Life way, but in the "Let's see how realistic a universe we've actually left ourselves after this years-long whirlwind of barely-planned epic adventures, and see what remains of our cute little funny cartoon show about horses learning to be friends".

The sunset scene was definitely one of those moments where I found myself asking "I'm really watching My Little Pony, aren't I?" And it felt different from all the other times I've ever asked myself that. It meant something different this time: it wasn't that the show was actually being unexpectedly funny or adult or cross-gender-friendly or any of the other things that usually catch me off-guard. It was that it was taking stock of itself, giving itself a scorecard, and presenting itself for our judgment. It felt like instead of showing off, the show was baring its soul.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:17 am

I did find it kind of weird how in spite of Big Mac's obvious size and strength Rainbow Dash still implied his performance would be inferior and need a handicap based on his gender. There I said it. :gotcha:

Headless Horse wrote:Beautiful, honest and insightful appraisal.


Well spoken, my friend.
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:28 am

Why am I not surprised.
Some people on Tumblr are calling the episode transphobic. :-/
And from what I've seen on Twitter Peter has been getting a little bit of flak for it. Jim even tweeted this: https://twitter.com/TheBiggestJim/statu ... 8791883776
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 7:22 am

Soft Snow wrote:Well spoken, my friend.


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Wildfire wrote:Why am I not surprised.
Some people on Tumblr are calling the episode transphobic. :-/
And from what I've seen on Twitter Peter has been getting a little bit of flak for it. Jim even tweeted this: https://twitter.com/TheBiggestJim/statu ... 8791883776


I figure there's a certain type of person who'll call out any instance a man dressing as a woman (and possibly the reverse, though I'm guessing to a lesser extent) as being an affront to trans people. Not really sure what you can say to it, besides "Sorry you feel that way".
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Postby Frosthawk (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:01 am

Wildfire wrote:Why am I not surprised.
Some people on Tumblr are calling the episode transphobic. :-/
And from what I've seen on Twitter Peter has been getting a little bit of flak for it. Jim even tweeted this: https://twitter.com/TheBiggestJim/statu ... 8791883776


Are you presently aware of what message board you're on?
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:46 am

I was fearing the worst but yeah, that was ok. It's definitely elevated quite a few notches by the ending. I thought it was really well done and what a time for Big Mac to get to speak a load of dialogue (in his real voice!).

It got a genuine laugh out of me when you could see BM's adam's apple trembling at the end of the song and his voice got deeper. Much of the slapstick/visual gags in this weren't that great but oh well :pinkieshrug: (the two chickens consoling each other was good).

I was really glad to see Scootaloo and Rainbow Dash entering the event as a pair, first time we've seen any interaction between them since Flight to the Finish (which is a God tier episode, same as Sleepless. 2 out of 3 ain't bad :v: ).

I was so glad that Big Mac didn't lose his disguise until after the end of the race, I thought they were going to have him lose it piece by piece after he lost his shoes, and it was good that the judges and seemingly everypony lready knew it was him anyway.

So yeah, nowhere near the best S5 has to offer but at least way better than last week's offering.
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:48 am

Frosthawk wrote:
Are you presently aware of what message board you're on?



So was this episode transphobic?
Or would this be better discussed in the soapbox?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:05 pm

Image Princess Celestia, Ah'd like you to meet mah cousin...Orchard Blossom.

Image I declare, it is such a thrill to meet the ruler of this fair land. It must be so difficult to raise and lower that giant, glowing ball of gas every day.

Image Er...yes...

:speakest: Are you forgetting me? I have to raise and lower the moon!

Image Well, yes...but that's just a big rock.

:unenthused:
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:19 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:I figure there's a certain type of person who'll call out any instance a man dressing as a woman (and possibly the reverse, though I'm guessing to a lesser extent) as being an affront to trans people. Not really sure what you can say to it, besides "Sorry you feel that way".


'A certain type of person' you mean, like... a trans person who is understandably sensitive about this sort of thing?

'Being offended' doesn't just happen out of nowhere, y'know. And there are, in fact, trans people on this forum, so let's not pretend like finding this stuff tasteless or offensive is just a thing that tumblr does, or whatever.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:09 pm

Crimson Foxtail wrote:
'A certain type of person' you mean, like... a trans person who is understandably sensitive about this sort of thing?

'Being offended' doesn't just happen out of nowhere, y'know. And there are, in fact, trans people on this forum, so let's not pretend like finding this stuff tasteless or offensive is just a thing that tumblr does, or whatever.


I suppose my problem is that I tend to come at this sort of thing from an "intent matters" angle. I don't personally believe anyone working at Hasbro intended any offense to the trans community, so seeing people lashing out at producers and voice actors on twitter seems misguided and wrong to me. It's one thing to make your voice heard in encouraging change, but quite another to attack people who meant no harm.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:16 pm

They never laughed at Big Mac and, to me at least, the joke wasn't so much "haha look a stallion in a dress" as it was "you don't need to pretend to be someone you're not for Apple Bloom's sake". The show was not saying that any man who wears a dress is pretending to be someone he's not. It was something specific to Big Mac. But I'm also not trans, so I can't speak on behalf of transpeople as to how the episode made them feel, and based on reactions to the episode in the PPPP thread, there are transpeople on both sides of the argument. Controversy aside, I felt the episode overall was average to below-average, but the ending was really sweet and touching.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:19 pm

:awkward: :"Why is it that, on a normal day we can hardly get a word out of you, but when you're doing that Apple Blossom voice you can't shut up?!"
:eenope: ...
:gah: :"rude. It's cause he's in character!"
:eeyup: :"Eeyup!"
:rainbert: :"I bet you like to wait around for others to say what you're thinking and then you just go -"
:v: :"Eeyup!"
:eenope: :"..."
:flail: :"Don't be ridiculous! Just because he's short on words doesn't mean he's -"
:eenope: :"*ahem*"
:gah: :".... waiting for me to jump right in."
:awesomedash: :"You Apples are a riot!"
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:47 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
I suppose my problem is that I tend to come at this sort of thing from an "intent matters" angle. I don't personally believe anyone working at Hasbro intended any offense to the trans community, so seeing people lashing out at producers and voice actors on twitter seems misguided and wrong to me. It's one thing to make your voice heard in encouraging change, but quite another to attack people who meant no harm.


"Intent matters" and "don't lash out at creators" are nice thoughts in a vacuum, and obviously attacking the creators is bad, but at the same time, "intent" does not change the fact that many trans people who thought MLP was a safe space for them found this episode painful, and focusing only on the 'aggressive internet fans' part kinda trivializes that. It's not fun to see things that torment you in real life be excused as simply cheap gags, no matter the intent.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 3:02 pm

I kinda feel the truth is somewhere in the middle :v: Yes they did it with the best of intentions, yes they tried to give it a good message. But the target audience isn't gonna get any of that, they're just gonna go "a man in a dress, that's weird/funny" :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Marimo (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:06 pm

I've also seen some people who are trans or have trans family or are in a relationship with someone who is trans and are fine with it.

Apparently Peter New has a sister who is trans, and sees the episode as something he'd be proud to show her. He saw the episode just about apolitical cross-dressing and not a comment on trans people. The comedy wasn't simply Mac being in a dress, with ponies even accepting him rather than berating him, and the humor is derived from someone being outside of their comfort zone and could be applied to anyone (someone who responded to him pointed out Applejack when she wore a frou-frou dress in Look Before You Sleep as an example of this kind of joke being applied to a female).

Though at the same time he doesn't want to just brush off the people who were hurt by it.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:09 pm

That Applejack comparison is really good.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 4:12 pm

Even after five seasons the show can still generate a lot of drama on the internet. In some ways I still respect that in others I'm bit confused.
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Postby Juniper Phoenix (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:43 pm

I can't speak for other transfolk, but as a transwoman myself, the episode didn't come off as transphobic at all to me. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Cthulhu Inc (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:10 pm

Juniper Phoenix wrote:I can't speak for other transfolk, but as a transwoman myself, the episode didn't come off as transphobic at all to me. :pinkieshrug:

I agree, I feel the joke was that Big Mac is a doofus.
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Postby theGECK (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:19 pm

I liked the lesson, I liked seeing Big Mac wish that he was more a part of AppleBloom's life, I liked seeing Big Mac try to live up to Applejack's standards, I liked the acknowledgement that there is pain in watching somebody you care about grow up into their own person. The crossdressing thing...I'm not sure what to think about it one way or the other. It was cringe worthy, but not really saying anything bad? Worst part of that was the whole "adam's apple stallion" thing, and I wish they had either run with it or not. This has the feeling of having been worked over by lots of people and mashed down into a pulp that doesn't resemble what it could have been! I think I would rather have seen it played up more, which would have made the "old stallion falls for the guy in drag" joke actually make sense, than to have them keep going "We don't want to get sued, make sure it doesn't offend." The final lesson though from the judge? The one about how the bond of sisterhood isn't limited by gender (or probably race as well #bringbackgilda) was very nice to hear coming from the show.

You know, I wish that had been what they emphasized, with everything else the same and Mac messing up, but this time it would be a character moment of Mac not being the same type of pony that Applejack is and no longer is the person that Applebloom will come to by default for everything. Over the course of the social, and trying to do things that Applejack can do, possibly succeeding but in very different ways than how Applejack would have done it, Mac is coming to terms with this until the end where he tries so hard to be Applebloom's BBBFF that he wrecks everything and we have the beautiful ending. Same arc, same story, taking out all the cringe moments for some genuine slice of life.

I'm definitely marking this episode in my Big Mac headcanon - not only did he have a dress within a few hours that kinda fit him, he also had undergarments for it, a wig that fit his head and colours, had a name/voice/backstory ready, and knew how to do his makeup. He's most talkative when "in character" and he dreams about being an alicorn, the only canon examples of which are female. I'm pretty sure that MLP won't ever to a transgender episode, but that doesn't mean I can't imagine that one of the characters are and there's now evidence for somepony other than Rarity.
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theGECK
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 6:44 pm

theGECK wrote:I'm pretty sure that MLP won't ever to a transgender episode, but that doesn't mean I can't imagine that one of the characters are and there's now evidence for somepony other than Rarity.
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Hmm, evidence for Rarity? I'm curious about this - Mind explaining?
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