S06E06: No Second Prances

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Re: S06E06: No Second Prances

Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:09 pm

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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:20 pm



:-I I've only slobbered on this plate so far...

:wingsright: Better get my dirty hooves on the plate too.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:25 pm


Absolutely outstanding.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 2:44 pm


Put this on the booru.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:45 pm

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but why would you post such a thing??
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 4:55 pm

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Sunny Shimmy's still my favorite character, but even though the above is mostly accurate, I look forward to Starlight getting more development because she's fun too. Image
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Postby LunarRainbow92 (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 5:16 pm

I just watched this episode (I'm not going to spoil anything) and found it be to really good, for once I don't hate Trixie anymore LOL!
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 5:31 pm

Spoil all you want, we're out of the moratorium (plus this is the episode thread :amazing:)

But yeah, Starlight has some really interesting depth to her character. She's another "Adult" along the lines of Rarity or Applejack, but she strikes me more as like a soccer mom who's destined to be in charge of her circle's social engagements just because she's got that forceful energy and the drive to make things happen.

Placing herself deliberately below Twilight in the hierarchy has got to be galling for her. She's doing it voluntarily (as MechApe pointed out), but it's not at the expense of her character—she's still rebellious in her own way, doing the things she ought not be allowed to get away with, not because she's actually trying to undermine Twilight or anything, but because she's ingrained into herself that there really isn't anything wrong with doing X or Y unsavory thing.

I kind of love the dynamic between Starlight Glimmer the born leader forcing herself to learn how to submit to Twilight the awkward authority-pleaser who's been unexpectedly forced into a position of power. This is a thing that actually happens in real life, and the results are seldom predictable :wat:
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Postby Octavia (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 6:36 pm


Implement these plz
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Postby Strangepony (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 6:55 pm

Well, after rolling my eyes at Trixie fans for years, I finally saw a Trixie episode where she was likeable. :gotcha:

I want to see more Trixie/Starlight now. :smug: Image
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Postby Aramek (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 7:09 pm

I like Starlight more than Sunset. But they're both cool.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 7:17 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:Image

Sunny Shimmy's still my favorite character, but even though the above is mostly accurate, I look forward to Starlight getting more development because she's fun too. Image

:dwi: Even Celestia can't lighten up that shade.
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 8:13 pm

:pcstare: So, Cranky, how are you and Matilda doing?

Image Terrible. She left me for another donkey.

Image I'm sorry to hear that. Stealing another donkey's wife...he sounds like a real ass.

Image What, you're complimenting him?
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 9:07 pm

PonyHag714 wrote::pcstare: So, Cranky, how are you and Matilda doing?

Image Terrible. She left me for another donkey.

Image I'm sorry to hear that. Stealing another donkey's wife...he sounds like a real ass.

Image What, you're complimenting him?


What, Rhinox can't do things alone from time to time?

Also Adelor that image you made owns. Now if there were only a 1920 by 1080 version for use as a Windows wallpaper. I'm just sayin..... :allears:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 10:36 pm

Wait, how are non-unicorns suppose to use silverware?
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 10:45 pm

Soft Snow wrote:Wait, how are non-unicorns suppose to use silverware?
:starity:


Well, Pegasus can use their wing-fingers.

But the silverware is really set out to mock the Earth Ponies.

:-/ Make me set a table without magic. Lets see you use these without magic.
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Postby Sidotsy (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 10:57 pm

Yeah I have no idea about the silverware, but like I said earlier, I think it's probably a Unicorn thing. Twilight was basically being accidentally racist.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 11:05 pm

Honestly, I think Starlight Glimmer is more interesting than Bacon Hair, largely because she's got a more interesting past. A personal loss early in Starlight's childhood led her down a path of nasty magic and charismatic leadership, one she hopes to make up for now but has trouble with since she's so accustomed to doing things her way, even though she doesn't intend malice in her means anymore. Meanwhile, Sunset Shimmer is a former student in Celestia's school who was too personally power-hungry and went to Dougworld for some reason, then tried to steal Twilight's big crown thingy and got beaten up for it, and now she's... mostly just kinda there? To be fair, I didn't watch the third EqG movie so I don't know if she did something super ultra amazing there, but even if I saw it I doubt that'd give her a more interesting backstory or motivation.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun May 01, 2016 11:07 pm

Soft Snow wrote:Wait, how are non-unicorns suppose to use silverware?
:starity:


Y'all are underestimating the mighty earth ponies.

Pinkie, for example, would probably flip a fork with her nose, sending it flying through the air, landing in a piece of food and then bouncing back to her mouth.

Applejack would use the various knives and spoons to prepare her food, and then just eat it normally.

Everyone can get involved!





Both of these things are also amazing.

Fizzbuzz wrote:Honestly, I think Starlight Glimmer is more interesting than Bacon Hair, largely because she's got a more interesting past. A personal loss early in Starlight's childhood led her down a path of nasty magic and charismatic leadership, one she hopes to make up for now but has trouble with since she's so accustomed to doing things her way, even though she doesn't intend malice in her means anymore. Meanwhile, Sunset Shimmer is a former student in Celestia's school who was too personally power-hungry and went to Dougworld for some reason, then tried to steal Twilight's big crown thingy and got beaten up for it, and now she's... mostly just kinda there? To be fair, I didn't watch the third EqG movie so I don't know if she did something super ultra amazing there, but even if I saw it I doubt that'd give her a more interesting backstory or motivation.


I'd agree with this. Sunset was just a power-hungry asshole, whereas Starlight was a misguided, charismatic asshole as a result of childhood trauma. There's more depth to Starlight's (asshole) backstory.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 12:14 am

Soft Snow wrote:Wait, how are non-unicorns suppose to use silverware?
:starity:

Like so:

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Postby Daring Do (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 2:30 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Honestly, I think Starlight Glimmer is more interesting than Bacon Hair, largely because she's got a more interesting past. A personal loss early in Starlight's childhood led her down a path of nasty magic and charismatic leadership, one she hopes to make up for now but has trouble with since she's so accustomed to doing things her way, even though she doesn't intend malice in her means anymore. Meanwhile, Sunset Shimmer is a former student in Celestia's school who was too personally power-hungry and went to Dougworld for some reason, then tried to steal Twilight's big crown thingy and got beaten up for it, and now she's... mostly just kinda there? To be fair, I didn't watch the third EqG movie so I don't know if she did something super ultra amazing there, but even if I saw it I doubt that'd give her a more interesting backstory or motivation.

Kind of hurts the effect when that personal loss is "my friend moved away".
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 2:33 am

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Image : What were you expecting some sense of regret over my actions?
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Postby Aramek (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 2:45 am

Yeah! :v:
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

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Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 3:13 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:Like so:

Image

Wait, how is she holding that spoon up to her mouth? What kind of off-screen black magic shenanigans is going on here?
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 3:36 am

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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 3:36 am

Soft Snow wrote:Wait, how is she holding that spoon up to her mouth? What kind of off-screen black magic shenanigans is going on here?
:starity:

It's still one of the greatest unsolved mysteries of FiM's early days.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 4:42 am

And the way it's animated and cropped, you know the animators were sniggering into their hands the whole time. :gotcha:
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 4:52 am

She puts the spoon in the jam holding the handle with her mouth, and comes up with the spoon tipping jam into her mouth..... as hermes says, it just raises further questions!

Then again, Granny Smith managed to venture in the Everfree Forest, find a rare form of apple made out of li8ghtning, outrun timberwolves, and has 20 superstitions on turning those lightning apples into the best damn jam ever..... so there's definitely some Witchcraft there.
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 6:23 am

So I watched this after people said Morningstar Mace made jokes about making a cult and for something that is clearly trying to make us empathize with Pulsar Pitstain and accept her new redeemed form, it just ends up raising further problems with her characterization. Despite their attempts to make Trixie seem ambiguous and possibly villainous, she still comes off as more genuinely regretful of her actions (even though she had less culpability for those action) than Venus Sprite, who while realizing she 'was evil' still jokes about it in a way that puts herself above others and still has no problem imposing her will on others for her own selfish reasons, and showing little to no regret for it.

While Twilight is a mild hypocrite, and is wrong about Trixie, her only real mistake is giving Starlight such a blank check immediately after she nearly destroyed reality in the first place.

The reason Sunset is viewed as a better character is because A) Even when she was an power-hungry asshole, she established she had moral limits and B) She spent a good part of 90 minutes regretting her course of action.

Discord's Reformation is problematic as well, but he's at least basically being put through a gradual process of rehabilitation that he isn't initially interested in. He's going through what the prison system would be doing in an ideal world. He's also also doing this after having spent a fair amount of time being punished for his actions.

In the end, in order to earn second chances you've got to show you're deserving of them. So far she's shown only the most superficial regret motivated by the fact that she's ostracized for her actions, not because of those actions themselves.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 10:29 am

As I said in the other thread, it's hard to argue against any of that :pinkieshrug: You got a point. I still like her, but they could have handled her past a lot better.

Though I'm not sure why you say Sunset Shimmer had limits, since she was kind of aiming to magically enslave Equestria :-I But yes, she actually showed regret through the whole movie, while Starlight only did so in a singing montage.
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but why would you post such a thing??
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 11:25 am

Also Sunset Shimmer has this Antonio-Banderas-as-Che-Guevara thing going on which makes her much cooler than Starlight Glimmer and a terrible shame she didn't get to do High Flying Adored in Rainbow Rocks
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 12:19 pm

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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 12:32 pm

EDIT: I watched this one again tonight, and I had a thought about Twilight's role in the story. Seeing it the second time, the scenes that really leapt out as being the weirdest and most out-of-character were 1) the scene with Twilight hiding in the bushes, and 2) the scene with Celestia and Twi's three friend candidates at the dinner.

So basically the weak link is the "Twilight tries to set Starlight up with other ponies" bit, which is actually super easy to excise. The bush scene becomes Starlight catching Twilight spying on her and Trixie; Twi's motivation becomes not trying to set Starlight up, but watching out of concern and suspicion. Starlight takes umbrage and leaves, Twilight accepts she'll have to trust Starlight and returns to the castle.

The show plays out as broadcast until the dinner party scene. Now rather than introducing these three random characters like a total weirdo, the scene is Twilight sweating it as she and Celestia sit alone at the table waiting for Starlight to make good on her promise and show up. Once again, from there onwards the show unfolds as broadcast.

The version we got has Twilight being much pushier and more socially tone-deaf than we're used to, which I think is biggest the problem. By keeping her suspicion and trust issues but removing her goofy "I'll set her up with Cranky for some reason!" bit, I think things would've worked a lot better.

Of course the tradeoff is losing that great hair gag at the end. Then again, I'm sure they could've written something just as good with Celestia alone at the dinner table.

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Jesus christ. This is never going to end, is it?
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Postby DerFurShur (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 2:13 pm

Yeah just because I liked this episode doesn't change the fact that Starlight Glimmer is basically Sunset Shimmer-lite
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 2:24 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:The version we got has Twilight being much pushier and more socially tone-deaf than we're used to, which I think is biggest the problem. By keeping her suspicion and trust issues but removing her goofy "I'll set her up with Cranky for some reason!" bit, I think things would've worked a lot better.

I don't know, I liked things as they were. Twilight scrambling to find other friends for Starlight helped drive home the point that she was worrying way too much and being too much of a control freak. Her behavior didn't seem especially unusual to me, but then I did rewatch Feeling Pinkie Keen just the day before this episode aired, so that was still fresh on my mind.
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 4:02 pm

Highbrow Dash wrote:As I said in the other thread, it's hard to argue against any of that :pinkieshrug: You got a point. I still like her, but they could have handled her past a lot better.

Though I'm not sure why you say Sunset Shimmer had limits, since she was kind of aiming to magically enslave Equestria :-I But yes, she actually showed regret through the whole movie, while Starlight only did so in a singing montage.


I was mostly referring to the scene where Shimmer has Spike captive but made it clear she was in no way going to harm him. Compare to Moonlight Butterfly who clearly used psychological torture methods on her prisoners for brainwashing purposes.

I'm not denying that Shimmer was 'a dick,' but her methods until the end revolved around just being a garden-variety bully. Her magical enslavement of the high school teens might have been the nail in her moral coffin, but they didn't seem conscious of their actions and all they did was end up drooling while standing in place for a few minutes. Intent is perhaps damning despite the lack of follow through, but on a visceral level follow through is required for you to get mad about it.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 4:37 pm

Look, none of us are going to try to convince you otherwise. But, does the fact that some of us enjoy her make you feel bad? If so, I can just, like, not do that while you're in the thread.
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Postby The Ghost Of Ember (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 5:12 pm

Aramek wrote:Look, none of us are going to try to convince you otherwise. But, does the fact that some of us enjoy her make you feel bad? If so, I can just, like, not do that while you're in the thread.


No, I am expressing my contempt and anger over a thing I think is poorly written. You're free to have a differing opinion and you having that opinion has no bearing on my feelings and doesn't make me feel bad. I am angry at the writers and producers, not with the consumer. How you feel about things is your business and doesn't affect me one whit. If you want to feel guilty about liking a character that's your business, don't put that evil on me.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 5:16 pm

What is the argument here, that Sunset should have been used in Starlight's place all along? Because that's all Equestria Girls' fault as a franchise, it's hard to put on FiM proper.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon May 02, 2016 5:21 pm

Wayoshi wrote:What is the argument here, that Sunset should have been used in Starlight's place all along? Because that's all Equestria Girls' fault as a franchise, it's hard to put on FiM proper.

The Ghost Of Ember is an ex-Jehova's Witness and he was bothered by how lightly the show has handled Starlight Glimmer's village and her whole thing of being a cult leader. He wrote an interesting Cottage thread about it a couple months ago: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=13411
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