S04E14: Filli Vanilli

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Re: S04E14: Filli Vanilli

Postby SoundMonkey44 (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:52 am

Maybe Candy Manes cutie mark means she's a professional filly sitter.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:55 am

Wayoshi wrote:Image
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Image


So... Fluttershy is doing Twilight's stress-release technique from GPP now, is she? :dreamworks:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:57 am

Wylie wrote:Am I the last person here to notice that Candy Mane has an actual piece of candy in the front curl her mane, or the first?

I just took a peek at Luna Eclipsed, and it wasn't there before. Must be something they added for this episode.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:23 am

I'm starting to come around on Mr. Overdesigned Dad as a bit of a fail. As a strict background pony I think it could have been ignored fine as a spectacle one-timer, but he actually gets a couple lines, so you have to notice him then. Oh well, hyper bird pony was cute. :allears: If it really was a staffer insert, well, it took this long for it to be really noticeable to a negative degree, let's start another long streak of that...

Between Amy's tweets and some explanations here, I guess I can kind of see where Pinkie came from this episode. Would kids really get confused if Fluts was saying these issues instead of Pinkie though - I don't fully buy that, but I'm not a writer for kids. I mean, we see Fluts internalizing her fears in yet another creepy scene later anyways. Basically what I'm saying is keep doing creepy Fluts psychological super scared scenes because I love them and will never get tired of them. :v:

But even though Pinkie is meant to simply be in a mode of "no filter, speaking before thinking, blunt to a fault" while being ridiculous/silly, aren't these two quotes still kind of too far?

Yeah! It'll be so amazing! You'll be there on stage, basking in the hooflights, the centre of attention, a shining star! Everypony staring at you, judging you, jealously noting how they could be way better than you? Why wasn't it them? Why wasn't it them? And then, when you choke, they'll turn on you, becoming a seething, angry mob, and you'll be horribly humiliated, never able to show your face in Ponyville again!


That was totally unbelievable! I mean, the curtain came up and there you were, singing in front of everypony! And you know, I don't think anypony was jealous, 'cause there certainly wasn't an angry mob! But it must have been horrible standing there on stage, all eyes glued directly on you! It's like you were living your own personal worst nightmare!


Bolded parts (not by coincidence at the end) were where I thought it ended up being a little too cruel. I guess Pinkie is expecting a "wowow yeah, it was like ... " in response back and keep on conversing, but it's Fluts, come on now. I'm going to tie myself in knots like Headless said, so I'll leave it at "OK, I guess they needed a Mane 6 member to drum up a bit of conflict from their side, and Pinkie was a good choice, but the dialogue just didn't fully work for me". I also think Andrea's yelling mode didn't serve it well either. I may have been totally OK with it with just a minor tweak or two somewhere, but I'll never know for sure.

The only other nitpick I have is that Amy went to the trouble of naming the other two Ponytones, yet the dialogue never acknowledges that - in a bad way. "Now, Ponytones, I want you to rest your voices..." "Good morning, Ponytones" ... no, that's not natural dialogue, saying Torch Song and Toe-Tapper as the individual ponies they are is the natural dialogue. :pinkieshrug:

And everything else is perfect, A. Flutterguy really was just a perfectly-fitting cog into a zany plot, which still delivered the correct amount of feels and progress for Fluts, worthy of being HF's successor/sequel, if not as grandiose.

Pinkie Pride is still an epic spectacle + character study that is slightly better in my book, but those two and RTM are freely interchangeable atop any top S4 list and come down to preference on what type of episode you most like, IMO. It's a relief to have so many high-quality episodes already after S3, even though a couple of the lows have been way down there.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:10 am

How great is it that the Ponytones weren't a pop band like the actual Milli Vanilli, or a boy-band knockoff, or an '80s hair-metal band, or a Spice Girls knockoff, or KISS, or any of a hundred other "haha I see what they did there" easy pop-culture parodies?

A doo-wop/barbershop ensemble is perfect for this universe. It's old-fashioned, low-tech, a bit dorky, authentic, and sweet. :allears:

Props for having two unknowns in there too and not using Bulk Biceps and Derpy.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:15 am

There were a lot of new BG ponies this ep, that or ones that I just don't notice very often.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:22 am

PictishBeast wrote:How great is it that the Ponytones weren't a pop band like the actual Milli Vanilli, or a boy-band knockoff, or an '80s hair-metal band, or a Spice Girls knockoff, or KISS, or any of a hundred other "haha I see what they did there" easy pop-culture parodies?

I was definitely relieved by that fact. While I still think some of the early dialogue (mainly in how distantly Fluttershy referred to them, given that Rarity was a member of them) was a bit odd, it otherwise was far nicer than her being asked to fill in for some major group or something.
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Postby Zuzie (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:22 am

Wayoshi wrote:Image

The most shocking thing.


I just noticed that Candy Mane's mane actually has a piece of candy in it.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:36 am

So I'm not the last, then. :gotcha:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:40 am

I didn't even know that background pony's fanon name. Yet, clearly someone on staff did... :smirk:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:47 am

Candy Mane has Candy in her mane AND she got her cutie mark?! I want to know what kind of week she had.
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Postby Sailor Yue (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:54 am

I watched in uber low quality 240 cuz of really crappy internet. SO i didnt notice ANYTHING :twonk:

Except the "usb unplug" noise Fluttershy makes when she realizes she's been ousted
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:59 am

PictishBeast wrote:How great is it that the Ponytones weren't a pop band like the actual Milli Vanilli, or a boy-band knockoff, or an '80s hair-metal band, or a Spice Girls knockoff, or KISS, or any of a hundred other "haha I see what they did there" easy pop-culture parodies?

A doo-wop/barbershop ensemble is perfect for this universe. It's old-fashioned, low-tech, a bit dorky, authentic, and sweet. :allears:

Props for having two unknowns in there too and not using Bulk Biceps and Derpy.


I really like Toe Tapper. He looks like a swell guy. :cheese:

But yeah, that was one of the best things in an episode full of best things. They made a capella doo-wop so damn catchy and infectious it sounded like it could be the hottest thing in Equestrian pop. They sold the living hell out of the idea.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:06 am

Barbershop quartet just has so much charm and its one of my favourite styles that pony has done. It really does fit the universe like a glove.

Instead of doing pop songs at the end of big episodes with musical numbers, they should just have the Ponytones come back. :twiright:
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Postby Rainbow Crash (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 5:11 am

I really can't get enough of the song :yay:

All the different variations are wonderful, but I think I like the quintet version at the end the best
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Postby haywire (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:01 am

What a fun episode. Glad to see Peter New is still being paid by the word.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:40 am

Not as fantastic as last week but still damned good. The urge to hear various Barbershop Quartets/similar styled songs done over Ponies is rising high though.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:49 am

Captain Rufus wrote:Not as fantastic as last week but still damned good. The urge to hear various Barbershop Quartets/similar styled songs done over Ponies is rising high though.


We need Spike and the Pony guys doing the Gentleman Callers.



:gotcha: best Breaking Bad episode ever.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:13 am

Well, this episode definitely makes me want to see this kind of music in MLP more often.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:16 am

I made this:

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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:21 am

Huh...didn't MST3K do that short film once? I could have sworn they made a joke like "Yes, plywood can DEFINITELY ward off nuclear radiation, kids!"
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:44 am

Headless Horse wrote:I really like Toe Tapper. He looks like a swell guy. :cheese:


:v: "By the way ... what are toes?"

:twiright: "Oh, Rainbow Dash. Equines like you and I have evolved such that our hooves are actually the tip of a large, elongated toe! Previously this was the third toe, but the others are vestigial and no longer develop. That's why ponies belong to the order Perissodactyla, or odd-toed ungulates!"
:v: "I like soup!"
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Postby Wylie (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:59 am

Captain Rufus wrote:Not as fantastic as last week but still damned good. The urge to hear various Barbershop Quartets/similar styled songs done over Ponies is rising high though.


I've had the theme to goddamn Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego? running through my head all day.

"Do it, Rockapella!"

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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:45 am

sailoryue wrote:They probably chose not to go... I mean look how young Zhipperwhill apears to be compared to the CMC. And she just got her cutemark?? God the jealousy probably would have killed them... Especially the double whammy with Scoots...

Probably. Hell, I'd say the little filly is even more agile than RD. Probably can't get up as much speed over a distance, but just look at her zip around. :awesomedash: And honestly, she wasn't that annoying. :rainbert:

SoundMonkey44 wrote:Maybe Candy Manes cutie mark means she's a professional filly sitter.

Maybe she's a founding member of the Big Sisters/Brothers of Equestria. :allears:

Also I've made a signature team tag from this episode for you all.
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Postby Gravenstein (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:49 am

sailoryue wrote:I watched in uber low quality 240 cuz of really crappy internet. SO i didnt notice ANYTHING :twonk:

Except the "usb unplug" noise Fluttershy makes when she realizes she's been ousted

I think that might have just been on the stream you saw, cause she doesn't make that noise at all in the one I watched. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Throbulator (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:38 am

Wayoshi wrote:Image


That green pony with the pink mane has Derpy's cutiemark! :starity:

You have gone too far, spa ponies! Too far! :applejargh:
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Postby Jill (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 10:35 am

I feel like this episode's Big Life Lesson was kind of... dismissive? Black-and-white even? It's kind of a sugarcoated way to tell someone "stop being scared of people or continue being miserable YOUR CHOICE" Gee, thanks for that practical bit of advice. I never thought of it that way except for all those times I cried myself to sleep in self-loathing for making some tiny mistake no one else will even remember.

In a real-world scenario, odds are at least one of the following is true:
  • You aren't infallible just because you left your comfort zone. When you're not mentally prepared to accept your own screw-ups after taking one step, you may never want to move in that direction again.
  • Your friends are exaggerating your talent to spare your feelings, and a crowd of strangers won't be so kind regardless. If I went through a similar situation where asking myself "What was so bad about it?" afterwards didn't just make me feel worse, it'd be a first.
  • It's impossible to say "no" and be nice at the same time. You might truly want no part of X activity, but people will either assume you secretly do or that you just need to give it a chance, which makes it easy for them to justify persuasion through guilt. (Rarity does exactly this to get Fluttershy to sing as Flutterguy. She may have had the best of intentions, but was only pressing her luck at Fluttershy's expense. (Though TBF Rarity could have kindly accepted "no" and Fluttershy probably still would have changed her mind, because she's awesome like that.))
  • Being completely sure that Everything Will Be Just Fine doesn't really change anything. Most introverts are already well aware and reminded constantly that they have nothing to fear, but if that's enough to put someone's mind at ease then they're probably not all that introverted.

It might sound like I'm complaining but this is exactly the kind of thing I love so much about Fluttershy's last few episodes (other than FS herself) and to a good extent the show as a whole. We have every reason to think there's no reforming someone like Discord, that vampire fruit bats are nothing but troublesome pests, that no one is going to leap a massive psychological hurdle overnight and be met with nothing but reinforcement afterward. There is some truth to this way of thinking, yet this show has been unapologetic in not giving a shit. It's not a truth anyone has to accept, at least not unchallenged. What good are ideals if cynicism won't let us move toward them at all?

What I mean to say is I like the happy cute horse show, especially the parts that are Fluttershy. :yay: 10/10
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Postby londonarbuckle (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:39 am

That was the most adorbs episode in ages! It was so sweet and had so many of the little touches that make me love this show! :allears: :allears: :allears: :allears: :allears: /5
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:46 am

This episode was great in showing the optimism and...pure happiness that this show conveys. That reprisal always warms my heart.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:23 pm

Image

Look at her just soaking up the applause, oh goooooooooooood *pop*

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Postby Venusy (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:34 pm

Wayoshi wrote:But even though Pinkie is meant to simply be in a mode of "no filter, speaking before thinking, blunt to a fault" while being ridiculous/silly, aren't these two quotes still kind of too far?

Bolded parts (not by coincidence at the end) were where I thought it ended up being a little too cruel. I guess Pinkie is expecting a "wowow yeah, it was like ... " in response back and keep on conversing, but it's Fluts, come on now.

Too cruel? Yes. But extremely accurate to the socially anxious thought process? Also yes. One of the more frequent assumptions is that everyone is watching you and waiting for you to fail, and that any evidence to the contrary is disregarded through reading minds and assuming the worst. I assumed for years and years that if I ever said certain things anywhere (including private conversations), all of my friends would disown me and a horde of screeching SA goons would drag me into Helldump. :nnngh: There are several reasons why this is irrational (Helldump doesn't exist anymore; most SA goons don't do that, I have no reason to care what the ones that do think, because they aren't the kind of people I want to take advice from; my friends are nicer than that), but until the assumption was questioned, it was automatic.

In the second quote... well, we see how Fluttershy's mind has processed that scene, despite it not being true to what actually happened. Pinkie is just saying it from that perspective - discounting all the positives about it, creating an unhelpful post-mortem of the distorted view of the situation rather than the situation everyone else saw.
Grim wrote:[*]Your friends are exaggerating your talent to spare your feelings, and a crowd of strangers won't be so kind regardless. If I went through a similar situation where asking myself "What was so bad about it?" afterwards didn't just make me feel worse, it'd be a first.

There's a helpful and a less helpful way to see this question. It can be helpful to objectively evaluate what happened and what the consequences of doing that were (compared to the predicted catastrophic consequences), but dissecting a distorted view of an event can reinforce whatever caused the distortion in the first place. It is certainly possible for friends and family to exaggerate talent - as the auditions phase of any TV talent show will show - and while it's important to acknowledge the positive, it is also good to keep compliments in perspective.
Grim wrote:[*]Being completely sure that Everything Will Be Just Fine doesn't really change anything. Most introverts are already well aware and reminded constantly that they have nothing to fear, but if that's enough to put someone's mind at ease then they're probably not all that introverted.

Hence the call for baby steps. It's an iterative process; once you've started to question the things that don't work, you can go against them in a small way, and that can lay the groundwork for going against them in a bigger way. (Also, this is me being a pedant, but there's a difference between being introverted and socially anxious - Twilight is introverted, but only socially anxious when it comes to Celestia. Pinkie arguably demonstrates the extroverted form of social anxiety - she lives for positive social interactions, but she can easily assume the absolute worst if she's given even the slightest hint of doubt :deflated: ).

EDIT: Oh jeez, what if Pinkie's statements here aren't merely reflective of Fluttershy's thought process, they're reflective of her own? :flutterdear:
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:56 pm

Nah, Pinkie's never shown any anxiety when it comes to performing. It's the thought of being replaced or forgotten is what frightens her.
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Postby InC (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:12 pm

Pinkie Pie, and especially AKR's Pinkie, is basically socially blind. She has compassion and affective empathy but no cognitive empathy, and she also does not understand most of non-verbal interactions, sarcasm and such. She doesn't really "get" people, but she cares deeply about them and wants to make everyone happy regardless. She is socially blind and anxious, but at the same time she is also extremely extroverted and lives vicariously through others. That's what makes her such an interesting character to me, and that's also why I liked her characterization in Feeling Pinkie Keen, another AKR episode (though she still should have more clearly learnt her lesson).

Here, I think we just had a situation where she understood was Fluttershy was going through, and just started blabbering to show sympathy and understanding without realizing that wasn't helping. I still think having Pinkie's innocuous words be distorted by Fluttershy's mind would have also done the job of explaining of thought processes while also pointing out how untrue they are, but coming from Pinkie in particular I think it still makes sense.
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Postby Venusy (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:23 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:Nah, Pinkie's never shown any anxiety when it comes to performing. It's the thought of being replaced or forgotten is what frightens her.
She has shown anxiety if the performance isn't absolutely perfect though, and the fear of being forgotten or replaced is part of that. It is possible that Pinkie thinks that the people who attend her parties could easily turn on her if there's even a balloon out of place. :deflated:

But I'm probably getting into :hithere: levels of theorycrafting and should probably stop.
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Postby Applepie (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:35 pm

This episode made me think of this song from 1981.

Playback - Carlos Paião

Must say, they don’t really care
Make believe everyone will stare
It’s play-back, gotta be play-back
Once again play-back, you’ll get over your nightmare

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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:35 pm

I saw it mentioned earlier in the thread that this episode concept could have worked fine without Flutterguy.

And it's probably true, it would have been... fine. But it would also have, I think, pushed the episode into "could have happened in any generic cartoon" territory. Flutterguy is how the show takes what is essentially a fairly predictable plot and makes it its own.

Right after finding out the episode title, in the spoiler thread I said:

So this one will be about Sweetie Belle gearing up for her big stage debut, only she loses her voice right before the performance and has to lip-sync on stage, and then the music gets unplugged and cuts out halfway throu—

.... what? :-I


Sweetie Belle, Fluttershy, whatever. :modesty: And details, details. This isn't to be all :smug: or anything, it's to point out that you can guess at what would make for a good, solid, bog-standard funny cartoon story just on the basis of this highly leading title alone. A one-sentence synopsis would have given us all the relevant story points right there in one fell swoop. There's nothing new or interesting about a "loses voice and has to lip-sync on stage" gag. But I don't think anyone saw Flutterguy coming until someone saw a screenshot involving Zecora.

That's what keeps this episode solidly grounded in Pony and makes the premise worthwhile. It's not just a cheap one-liner callback, like so many of the ones in Magic Duel were (much to its detriment, many would say). Nor was it annoyingly belabored, like a million throwaway Simpsons gags that turned into ludicrously overdetailed foreground elements, like Bumblebee Man or Apu and his family—or like all those horrible 90s movies that took gimmicky but iconic little SNL skits and tried to pad them out to feature length because it worked in Wayne's World. (Sorry guys, "It's Pat" is not movie material, nor is jerking your head back and forth to Haddaway, nor do we care about Dieter's "monkey".)

What it is is a Pony universe element that sets it apart and gives its its own, well, its own voice. :cheese: True that there was literally no reason for the part Fluttershy took over to have to be Big Mac's of all ponies. She could have filled in for Rarity or for whats-her-name alto. But throwing the luscious man-voice aspect into it puts a whole new unexpected spin on things, gives us the thrill of seeing them doing something good with an old gag that still had gas in the tank after all, and manages to get more laughs and character out of Big Mac to boot. It's even a rather interesting little exercise in twisting gender roles, which feels rather like the show punching above its weight again, like it always seemed to want to. Remember in Sister Act, when that one nun played by Kathy Najimy had that huge loud high voice that kept trumpeting over everyone else, and Whoopi Goldberg had to ask her to sing an octave lower to bring it in line? It's kind of like that, only I feel like that "rogue voice" thing being female is kind of a trope by now—one that this show just neatly subverted with all that stentorian bass freestyling. How often does that kind of imbalance happen, anyway?

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. The above might all be nonsense. But it makes me think the episode was conceived with the same kinds of inspiration as the best and most memorable of S1 episodes.
Last edited by Headless Horse on Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:38 pm

I noticed on rewatch that Pinkie makes Fluttershy Cry twice.

:rage: See everyone, Gilda isn't so bad.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:51 pm

@Headless

About the only difference between Rarity losing her voice and Fluttershy replacing her and Big Mac losing his voice and Fluttershy replacing him is she had a male voice. I don't see how this is "original" or so "pony" then what any other cartoon would've done, other then being another cheap call back (albeit not as poorly handled as the party cannon). Hence why I think this episode could've done without Flutterguy and nothing would be lost, the lesson would be the same, everything would be the same. Flutterguy didn't add anything at all funny or interesting. Personally, I think the episode would've been better if it was Fluttershy's actual voice.
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Postby Bon Snow (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:59 pm

Applepie wrote:(Sorry guys, "It's Pat" is not movie material, nor is jerking your head back and forth to Haddaway, nor do we care about Dieter's "monkey".)


Image

This is not movie material? :offendash: Well, I've never seen the movie, but I've seen a 5 minute clip and I think that was enough :awkward:

@Tailspin
The voice gave Fluttershy the opportunity to sing without being on stage. The voice conceiled her, it was a mask, since no one in town could identify Flutterguy's voice.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:02 pm

Eh, I think you could get a good movie out of that picture. Where are they driving to? What are they using that cardboard cutout of Twilight for? :v:
:plonk: Image :)
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