S05E19: Hearthbreakers

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Re: S05E19: Hearthbreakers

Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:13 am

PictishBeast wrote:
Several people have said this so far but to me this seems so bizarro. I loved the Pie family.

It would have been easy to make them all variations of Maud, but instead each was established with their own quirks and you can see how their family dynamic works. They even found time to give them individual moments of nuance. Mom & dad's story of how they got married started weird and turned cute. Limestone's attitide is because she basically runs the farm on her own and has no time for your shenanigans. Maud had that bit with Applebloom where she talked about wanting to turn into something else. Even Pinkie had that realistic family dynamic thing going on when Limestone yells at her for climbing the boulder and she gets down while muttering "all right all right, yeesh."

Loved this ep so much :awesomedash:

Yeah, I agree with all this. The Pies had the feeling of a family that, while not as functional as Applejack's immediate family, was still all used to each other and still worked with each other anyway. I really appreciate that sort of realness in my cartoon horse show.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:16 am

Limestone and Rainbow Dash would be buddies.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:33 am

The Ghost Of Ember wrote:
Kissing cousins :-I


Well, even if they are 'related' they're only distantly related. 4th cousins at best. Me? I'm all aboard this ship :allears:

It is awfully weird to get a holiday episode now.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:00 am

I doubt it'd feel quite as weird were it not for how Halloween is almost upon us, as well as how an episode with Nightmare Night happening got moved to be immediately after this episode. Had S5 aired in its original order, or had this episode been delayed to where it aired just before the finale, or had it aired in this order but at a different time of year, then I think things would've gone better.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:23 am

PictishBeast wrote:
Several people have said this so far but to me this seems so bizarro. I loved the Pie family.

It would have been easy to make them all variations of Maud, but instead each was established with their own quirks and you can see how their family dynamic works. They even found time to give them individual moments of nuance. Mom & dad's story of how they got married started weird and turned cute. Limestone's attitide is because she basically runs the farm on her own and has no time for your shenanigans.

I dunno, I tried to like them, but geez were they ever prickly. Specifically, that moment where they came out and saw some candy canes in the yard and started shaking their fists and yelling about how WRONG everything was. Is this the same family that saw Pinkie partying it up for the first time ever and started grinning despite themselves?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:37 am

I didn't care for Limestone making a gesture ordering Applebloom out when she was looking down at them from a window. She's only a filly. :angry:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:42 am

Over a hundred episodes and only 4 winter episodes. I take it winter must be a dull and uneventful time of the year in Equestria. I guess monsters hibernate as well or they artificially shorten winter seeing how they control the seasons and all. The latter would saddens me. :fluttersmith:

I can see why no one can find their presents when they hide them all. All their presents are rocks that are hidden on a rock farm. Natural camouflage. That might be a continuity callback from when Maud was playing hide and seek with Boulder. :pinkieshrug:

:geno: "Find the present."

:tom: :tom: :tom: :tom: :tom: :tom:

:eyebrow:

:geno: "It's a rock"

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Naw, I was able to get her too. Wasn't just you.


I'm not weird! :whatsup:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:03 am

At the beginning of the ep I thought "okay, Pinkie and Applejack road trip = odd couple setup" but Pinkie and Applejack actually got along great. They're even mirroring each other's sentences and it seems obvious they're related (I don't know why the show is being coy with that). I always thought it would be fun to see those two at each other's throats but I almost like it better to see them clicking.

Also good: the organ music whenever Pinkie's parents were talking
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:34 am

Only 4 winter episodes makes sense, when you look at it from the perspective of asset creation / the fact winter in a story usually means its an element of that story.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:45 am

:pride: "Everything was going so well ..."


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:eenope: "And then it happened."



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:-P "Hey guys, what's up!"



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Postby everyponytothelimit (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:51 am

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It knows
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

I thought this episode would be at least pretty good and so it proved :party:

Limestone being a bit abrasive gets a thumbs up from me. Pinkie's sisters are 3 different opposites of her: shy, mean and unemotional. Assuming Maud is the eldest the birth order is Maud, Limestone then Pinkie and Marble within minutes of each other.
EDIT: No, apparently Limestone is the eldest :fluttershock:

Marble was often obscuring her face with her hair, it would have been nice to hear her say something but maybe they can bring her out of her shell in a future episode. They could do something with her and fluttershy :flutterunsmith:

Big Mac is just a babe magnet :eeyup:

There's one point on the train before they get to the rock farm where I swear Apple Bloom's voice sounds more like Babs Seed (not the bit where she's got her mouth full). "Sounds like the Apples and the Pies do everything the same way".
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:10 pm

Ma and Pa Pie arranged marriage :party:

But yeah, I wasn't expecting every member of the Pie family to have their own individual streak just like Pinkie does. All this time I'd assumed Pinkie had left home largely because she couldn't get along with her boring family after her rainboom-induced cutie mark transformation, and that they clashed with her new free spirit personality and sent her packing or something (in spite of what her story said). I figured at least her parents would be no-nonsense authoritarians.

But no, turns out they're not even in charge within the family. Making Limestone the mover and shaker (and to share none of her parents' mannerisms) was quite a twist, and it keeps things in character—in fact, it makes it out that really her parents are the unusual ones, the ones who probably got ostracized from larger society and who operate by their own rules rather than being part of some large silent community of humorless horses who frown on the excesses of Ponyville.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:17 pm

The family clash scenes (i.e. the rock soup scene) had me feeling pretty uncomfortable. Like, I know how this is going to go down, and it's not going to be pleasant. I felt like the introductory scenes at the farm were a chore. But they did veer away from the most predictable parts; I enjoyed that the various pair-offs actually ended up being really astute and resulted in some good genuine bonding moments. But the traditions themselves left me a little cold in that it seemed like any two adult families meeting for the first time ought to recognize immediately that their traditions are different and go over some groundwork right off the bat, rather than just plowing into them. Especially if Pinkie is involved. She of all ponies should know exactly what everybody there would find welcome and what they would find off-putting, and her #1 priority beforehand should have been setting everyone's expectations so as to smooth out the culture shock.



Also, small thing that bugged me from an animation standpoint: was it really necessary for the flagpole to break a foot above the ground? It was already slipping into a fault crack (and probably caving in the mine below, lol). Why not have it just fall over?
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:57 pm

Headless Horse wrote: But the traditions themselves left me a little cold in that it seemed like any two adult families meeting for the first time ought to recognize immediately that their traditions are different and go over some groundwork right off the bat, rather than just plowing into them. Especially if Pinkie is involved. She of all ponies should know exactly what everybody there would find welcome and what they would find off-putting, and her #1 priority beforehand should have been setting everyone's expectations so as to smooth out the culture shock.


I think the trouble came from a few avenues here. First up is the fact that the Pie family are total weirdos who act like the "regular" Hearthswarming that AJ pitches is witchcraft; I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't even aware that other ponies did the holiday differently. Secondly is the fact that Pinkie is inclined to downplay the things that make her family different to other ponies, even if she isn't doing it on purpose. It happened in exactly the same way with Maud, where she described her in a way that sounded inviting to her friends, but was actually far from the truth. She does the same thing on the train ride in this one, leading AJ to expect something a whole lot less weird than what she got.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 1:05 pm

MurdER_weapOn '78 wrote:There's one point on the train before they get to the rock farm where I swear Apple Bloom's voice sounds more like Babs Seed (not the bit where she's got her mouth full). "Sounds like the Apples and the Pies do everything the same way".

I just listened to that line, and while she doesn't really have the accent for it, her voice does sound at least a bit deeper than it used to. Whether this seems strange depends on how old you think the CMC are, I suppose.
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:51 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I just listened to that line, and while she doesn't really have the accent for it, her voice does sound at least a bit deeper than it used to. Whether this seems strange depends on how old you think the CMC are, I suppose.


I'll have to check it again but I was half expecting her to say "fuggedaboutit" or something. Makes you wonder how long the VA will be able to carry on doing it.

Also, Fizzbuzz, I accidently hit the report button when I went to quote you :-I . I backed out of it straight away, sorry.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:26 pm

Nick Confalone tweeted about the Pie sisters' ages. Oldest to youngest, it's Limestone, Maud, Pinkie, Marble.

And he used the best possible image to go along with it. :iamapony:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:49 pm

MurdER_weapOn '78 wrote:
I'll have to check it again but I was half expecting her to say "fuggedaboutit" or something. Makes you wonder how long the VA will be able to carry on doing it.

I think Michelle Creber can keep playing Apple Bloom through the end of the series, really. Now that the show had her and the other two get their cutie marks, it's much easier to say that they're growing up than it would be to recast their parts.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:00 pm

Is it just me or are Applejack's Applejack-isms just getting even more Applejackey?

Image :"This isn't what I was expectin' ..."
Image: :"Is everything all right, Applejack?"
Image:"O' course, I'm just being a rusty fiddle. Tune me up and let's get back to dinner."


Image :"I really cracked the corn this time."


Image :"You want to know why Holder's Boulder's so danged important? ..... even though it was just an ordinary rock. It always brought them good luck!"
Image :"Aw, crickets! That is important! I got so caught up in the things they were doin', I never asked why they did 'em!
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:26 pm

Headless Horse wrote:Especially if Pinkie is involved. She of all ponies should know exactly what everybody there would find welcome and what they would find off-putting, and her #1 priority beforehand should have been setting everyone's expectations so as to smooth out the culture shock.


People get really weird when it comes to their families and the holidays. I don't doubt that Pinkie was genuinely excited to bring the families together, but on some level she also knows her family is a bunch of weirdos and several times I got a vibe of oh please please please don't screw this up for me everybody coming from her.

Like the wedding episode of the Simpsons:

Hugh: "I'm sure I'll get along with your family, you prepared me for the worst. As long as they're not squatting in a ditch poking berries up their noses."
Lisa: "And if they are?"
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 5:42 pm

I don't doubt that Pinkie was genuinely excited to bring the families together, but on some level she also knows her family is a bunch of weirdos.

I think that's just hiding beneath the surface, like that meet the family scene is a little bit of "Pinkie managing the insane asylum." starting with an unprovoked attack

"Cross me and you'll feel the wrath of Limestone P-"
Image
Image :"Whoah hoah! Hey there, Applebloom! I can see you've just met one of our most famous inmates!"
Image
Image :"Don't worry, though, she barks, but she don't bite-"
Image :"She's a year older than you."

Image
Keep 'em away from Holder's Boulder!
Image
Image :"I come all this way and you're still about that boulder...

Image
"That's the boulder. Keep away from it. Thank you."
Image
"Happy now?"

ImageImage
:cheese: :"Oh hey! There's one more little critter hiding out under the bushes ... if we had bushes."
Image

Image
"psst, hey!"
Image
"You're being rude, say hello!"

"Mmmhm..."
Image
:) :"That's the spirit!"


Anyway anyway...
Image
Image :"This ain't what I was expectin' What about hot rolls and mulled cider and double-baked pot pie?"
Image :"And what about six-layer bean dip?"
Image :"*pssst* Hey Granny, are you sure they had six layer bean dip at the first Hearthswarming?"
Image :"'Course they did."

Image
Image :"Potato, po-tah-to. Double-baked pot pie, rock soup! Dinner is dinner. Am I right or am I right?"
:skeptic: :"..."
Image :"Hot rolls ... rock soup!"
Image :"Mulled cider ... rock soup."
Image :"Six layer bean dip ... rock soup!"

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:maud: :"If you're looking for something else, we have rock soup."
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Postby acksed (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:00 pm

One interpretation that might explain why the Pies were so offended is that it's a culture clash between rich and poor.
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Postby InsertAuthorHere (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 7:03 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
I think the trouble came from a few avenues here. First up is the fact that the Pie family are total weirdos who act like the "regular" Hearthswarming that AJ pitches is witchcraft; I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't even aware that other ponies did the holiday differently. Secondly is the fact that Pinkie is inclined to downplay the things that make her family different to other ponies, even if she isn't doing it on purpose. It happened in exactly the same way with Maud, where she described her in a way that sounded inviting to her friends, but was actually far from the truth. She does the same thing on the train ride in this one, leading AJ to expect something a whole lot less weird than what she got.


After rewatching the train scene (which is pretty much the first time the traditions are outlined - family dinner, dolls over the fireplace, and flag raising - it doesn't appear that Pinkie was downplaying things so much as just saying that their family does the same thing. Everything Applejack says is in the vaguest sense possible, which plays into how she initially views her traditions as being the "correct" ones, as seen when she is briefly shocked that Twilight and Spike open their presents on Hearth's Warming Eve itself instead of the day after. Pinkie just affirmed that they were going to do those things. If Applejack had told Pinkie what the Apples consider a traditional Hearth's Warming Eve dinner, she probably would have told them what the Pies consider "traditional." Same with the dolls and flag.

Overall, this was a pretty good episode. I like the characterization of the Pie family, even if Limestone did get grating after a while - although I do love how even Pinkie seems sick of her crap every time the boulder comes into question. I actually like it more as a holiday episode than Hearth's Warming Eve, if only because it feels more like an actual episode than a history lesson.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:19 pm

Scuderia Ferrarity wrote:I think that's just hiding beneath the surface, like that meet the family scene is a little bit of "Pinkie managing the insane asylum." starting with an unprovoked attack

"Cross me and you'll feel the wrath of Limestone P-"
Image
Image :"Whoah hoah! Hey there, Applebloom! I can see you've just met one of our most famous inmates!"
Image
"You're being rude, say hello!"


Yes exactly, you nailed it.

Pinkie is nearly always cheerful but it has often seemed to me like a desperate kind of cheerfulness, a sense of "it's up to me to keep this together or else it's going to become a disaster." And after meeting her family I'm like, "of course, this explains so much!"

An aggressive sister, a checked-out sister, a withdrawn and frightened sister, and two distant, stern parents. Pinkie has this amazing talent for cheering up ponies & helping them get along, and here we see exactly why that's so. She's been playing to her toughest crowd for ~20 years; organizing a cutecinera in Ponyville is child's play in comparison.

A great Pinkie episode.

Also, Maud makes more sense now too. When she was growing up she could afford to be the weird studious one (the Pie family's Twilight Sparkle) because Limestone was already doing the hard physical work that the farm required and Pinkie was already doing the hard interpersonal work that the family required.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:21 pm

acksed wrote:One interpretation that might explain why the Pies were so offended is that it's a culture clash between rich and poor.

I don't really buy the author's "unicorn privilege" argument, but it definitely seems like a haves/have-nots situation. They wouldn't be eating stone soup if they ran a vegetable farm. And redecorating the whole place might come off as pretty condescending.

That said, I can't think of a gathering where the hosts would say, "You want to bring your family's six-layer bean dip recipe? NO, THAT'S HERESY."

Also, it's funny thinking of the Apples as the "rich, successful" farmers.

One thing I forgot to mention until re-reading that article: I liked all the little traditions they threw into this holiday that made it feel "real," but it's kind of strange that "raising the Equestrian flag" is the one that absolutely nobody questions. :jingo:
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:45 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:One thing I forgot to mention until re-reading that article: I liked all the little traditions they threw into this holiday that made it feel "real," but it's kind of strange that "raising the Equestrian flag" is the one that absolutely nobody questions. :jingo:


Well they should. Why does it have Celestia and Luna on it if they weren't around? :grumpydash:
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:46 pm

Image Ah sure messed up, didn't Ah, Princess Celestia.

Image Don't feel bad, Applejack. It's not your fault the Pies are hard cases...well, except for Pinkie.

Image Ah know, but...

:pcstare: I'll tell you what...next Hearth's Warming Eve, I invite you and your family to join my sister and I in Canterlot.

Image That'd be great!

:unenthused: Just remember, I have dibs on the ribbon candy.
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Postby acidtest (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:54 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:Nick Confalone tweeted about the Pie sisters' ages. Oldest to youngest, it's Limestone, Maud, Pinkie, Marble.

And he used the best possible image to go along with it. :iamapony:


Pinkie confirmed for the final word in middle child syndrome :cheese:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:14 pm

I'm also a fan of the way this episode reframes (almost certainly coincidentally, but w/e) Pinkie's interactions with Fluttershy.



She's probably always had to speak up on Marble's behalf or Marble would get ignored, so all the times Pinkie has been pushy with Fluttershy or put words in Fluttershy's mouth gets reframed. It's not that she doesn't understand introverts, it's more that she's only had experience working with this one introvert in an extremely demanding environment. If Pinkie didn't intervene on Marble's behalf then Marble maybe wouldn't get the last biscuit or something, and Pinkie doesn't always get that Fluttershy doesn't need the same big-sister guardianship.

:-P "Your Auntie Pinkie Pie's got it all taken care of!"
:nnngh: "I'm a year older than you."
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:01 pm

How can this show continue to recontextualize the basic relations between its main characters after five seasons. :ponydrugs:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:51 pm

PictishBeast wrote:She's probably always had to speak up on Marble's behalf or Marble would get ignored, so all the times Pinkie has been pushy with Fluttershy or put words in Fluttershy's mouth gets reframed. It's not that she doesn't understand introverts, it's more that she's only had experience working with this one introvert in an extremely demanding environment. If Pinkie didn't intervene on Marble's behalf then Marble maybe wouldn't get the last biscuit or something, and Pinkie doesn't always get that Fluttershy doesn't need the same big-sister guardianship.

:-P "Your Auntie Pinkie Pie's got it all taken care of!"
:nnngh: "I'm a year older than you."

I mostly always just saw that sort of thing as Pinkie Pie trying to be nice, as she sees niceness through her own logic. I never really considered that it might've actually been helpful as far as her family goes.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sun Oct 25, 2015 11:53 pm

And of course we had no reason to.
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Postby Nemrex (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:51 am

PictishBeast wrote:I'm also a fan of the way this episode reframes (almost certainly coincidentally, but w/e) Pinkie's interactions with Fluttershy.



She's probably always had to speak up on Marble's behalf or Marble would get ignored, so all the times Pinkie has been pushy with Fluttershy or put words in Fluttershy's mouth gets reframed. It's not that she doesn't understand introverts, it's more that she's only had experience working with this one introvert in an extremely demanding environment. If Pinkie didn't intervene on Marble's behalf then Marble maybe wouldn't get the last biscuit or something, and Pinkie doesn't always get that Fluttershy doesn't need the same big-sister guardianship.

:-P "Your Auntie Pinkie Pie's got it all taken care of!"
:nnngh: "I'm a year older than you."


That is a really good observation that puts in perspective Pinkie's tendency for interruptions. :amazing:

When Marble was introduced, I thought of her as Fluttershy with the timidity cranked up to eleven. But given how she's noted as the youngest sister along with growing up with an abrasive older sibling (not suggesting that Limestone is abrasive towards her, but growing up with somebody that rough in general can lower one's self esteem) would make Pinkie speak for her when she couldn't. This, I think, would be a factor in leading to Pinkie's eagerness to explain things before anybody else.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:50 pm

To Pinkie, we are all Marble. :psygum:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:34 pm

I like how after all this time they can reasonably explain a character's odd behavior in a natural and relatable fashion. They did it in a subtle way of showing the audience instead of telling them. You have to be modestly invested in the characters to catch on otherwise you would miss it.
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Postby ilcane87 (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 5:55 pm

Well, I always thought Maud was the reason Pinkie got along so well with Gummy. :geno:
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Postby BurningBright (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 6:28 pm

This was a really enjoyable episode. Not the best of the season, but still nice. I liked the episode's overall "different Christmases are okay" subtext, and it's nice to see Applejack get some more airtime.

I hope Limestone Pie gets a redemption episode or some airtime showing a nicer side of her though because wow, she's kind of a bitch. :starity:
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:31 pm

BurningBright wrote:I hope Limestone Pie gets a redemption episode or some airtime showing a nicer side of her though because wow, she's kind of a bitch.


I disagree that she needs redemption. Some people are just really irritable & short tempered and that doesn't make them bad people. Based on what little we've seen I'd bet that Limestone's positive qualities include hard work, responsibility, inner strength, decision-making skills, and leadership.

She's got lots of negative qualities too but don't we all.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:38 pm

Granted, I did kinda think they might have been building to a scene where Limestone's attitude would be shown to be an indispensable asset to the family in adversity, but...
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