S05E01-02: The Cutie Map

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Re: S05E01-02: The Cutie Map

Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:26 pm

The Doctor wrote:
I'd like to think most ponies just aren't stupid enough to fall for her shtick.

Or she used force on everyone. Why would Double Diamond give up skiing? Why would Party Favor give up balloons?

It didn't quite sound like she forced everyone. Double Diamond mentioned meeting Starlight Glimmer nearby, and afterward, they all talk about staying in town because it has the support they were originally looking for. At least some of them probably joined Starlight because they were lonely or outcasts or otherwise unable to fit in.

Maybe there was already a smaller village on the spot that did have conflicts over people's skills and egos, making them an easy mark and, afterward, a model community to draw in outsiders. Maybe she had been traveling and picking up followers along the way, then founded the town when they were far enough away from prying eyes.

Ransom wrote:You know, the episode did a good job of portraying how Starlight's society just wouldn't work in that nobody could do anything well. Clothes were horrible, food was awful, houses lacked design. Nobody could feel satisfied in their work. But beyond that is the more frightening prospect the more practical problems. Without talent, crop failure seems inevitable. If an outside threat came, monsters, changlings, another empire, they'd be helpless. If an illness swept through, who could help them?

That's why I wonder if Starlight will be back. She's a smart pony; surely she can see those consequences. Either her ambitions blinded her, or she had some other nefarious plan for those cutie marks.
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Postby Ransom (?) » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:41 pm

The line from Double Diamond was interesting because it seemed like an attempt to throw some more characterization into him. He was Starlight's right hand throughout the episode, and the one that lead the charge to get the cutie marks back when she was exposed. If he met her there, he's probably local, and perhaps one of her first converts. I think the Slate is probably right: The town started off as her base of operations and she drew in ponies from all over.

How they proceed with her is a bit of a puzzlement to me. My initial thought is that she would team up with some non-pony ally (Changlings, Griffons?) because they could use her to disable the ponies and then have her set up as a puppet leader, but that may be a bit, I don't know, heavy on complex politics?

:gonkity: The Griffon Kingdom has invaded! And Starlight is equalizing the army!
:rainbert: Not sure why she's bothering. Army never stops anyone anyway.
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BTW, a few ramblings about the quartet:they've got an interesting balance. First off, 2 guys, 2 girls, that hasn't happened much. I'll also note that we have Double Diamond and Night Glider, who have a complementary White/Dark Blue color contrast (see: Twilight is Purple and Flash Sentry is Orange), are both athletic, ready to attack personalities, and teamed up to air drop on Starlight in the climax. Party Favor and Sugar Belle almost seem to be Pinkie's baking and party making split in two, so you could see them working together. Just something I observed :smug: But yeah, they actually make a pretty good team and mix of personalities, though I suspect any real in depth stories might be told in the comics rather than the show.
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Postby Mysteryman (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:05 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:That's why lowest common denominator equality doesn't work. A society doomed to mediocrity would have no means of advancement and hardly any means of survival. A better solution is one which recognizes the skill and value inherent to each individual, then ensures that each of these individuals is able to participate and contribute what he or she does best without imbalancing and devaluing others.

My problem with the story is that it only used that first definition and didn't acknowledge the second. When people talk about equality, like marriage equality or gender equality, they're saying that everyone should have the same rights, not that everyone should suppress their individuality. I know the story had more details, like the cult angle, but it kept repeating the idea that equality is bad. The story really felt like a conservative or libertarian view of socialism. I've checked around, and some conservative websites are discussing these episodes as having an anti-socialist message. But maybe that's what the writers intended, I don't know. It is kind of odd, because I remember people accusing MLP of being communist.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:34 am

So I read Harrison Bergeron and watched the 2009 short film, and this episode is most certainly inspired by that work.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 2:35 am

Mysteryman wrote:My problem with the story is that it only used that first definition and didn't acknowledge the second. When people talk about equality, like marriage equality or gender equality, they're saying that everyone should have the same rights, not that everyone should suppress their individuality. I know the story had more details, like the cult angle, but it kept repeating the idea that equality is bad. The story really felt like a conservative or libertarian view of socialism. I've checked around, and some conservative websites are discussing these episodes as having an anti-socialist message. But maybe that's what the writers intended, I don't know. It is kind of odd, because I remember people accusing MLP of being communist.


I don't really think Starlight's philosophy was meant to be presenting the idea that "equality is bad" anymore than the Dazzlings in Rainbow Rocks were supposed to be showing "Being different is bad"; they were just villains preaching obviously bad extremist views.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:48 am

People are going to project whatever they want onto a story like this- that says more about them than it does the story.

This show has spent 4 years now showing young people that a group of six completely different people can come together and do amazing things by being themselves and taking advantage of each other's strengths. This episode played with the idea of removing those differences by force, and what that actually means to them. It didn't have anything in particular to say about politics, because it didn't have to. It used some of the language of politics and propaganda, but that's all.

It also proves that Twilight Sparkle monologues like a supervillain if given half a chance. :twonk:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:20 am

Wylie wrote:It also proves that Twilight Sparkle monologues like a supervillain if given half a chance. :twonk:

:wingsright: This is the denouement! It's when I tell the villain why she's wrong!
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Postby Ransom (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:42 am

SlateSlabrock wrote: :wingsright: This is the denouement! It's when I tell the villain why she's wrong!

:twience: I had to listen to YOUR prerecorded idiocy for over 48 hours straight! You WILL listen to my Picard speech!
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:04 am

Wylie wrote:This show has spent 4 years now showing young people that a group of six completely different people can come together and do amazing things by being themselves and taking advantage of each other's strengths. This episode played with the idea of removing those differences by force, and what that actually means to them.

Agreed that the episode's central premise is not "equality is bad," but rather "being unique is good." I seem to remember a lot of singing about that at the end of Twilight's Kingdom....

Each one of us has something special
That makes us different, that makes us rare
We have a light that shines within us
That we were always meant to share

And when we come together
Combine the light that shines within
There is nothing we can't do
There is no battle we can't win


This has been at the center of MLP ever since Lauren reimagined the idea of cutie marks. I think they explicitly wanted The Cutie Map to to reinforce that message by flipping it around.
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Postby Blarghalt (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:59 am

I think the real lesson to be learned here is if Pinkie tells you something's wrong, listen.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:51 am

Blarghalt wrote:I think the real lesson to be learned here is if Pinkie tells you something's wrong, listen.

You'd think the others would've learned that back in Swarm of the Century, but...
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:09 pm

Ransom wrote:The only way I could see the equalist society even functioning is if Starlight expanded her 'exceptions' list beyond herself. "For the good of the community" allow certain essential ponies to have their marks. Essentially, create a select class of citizens for various vital functions.


Ah, pony shabbos goy. Alternatively, it could bring about the notion of some animals more equal than others.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:25 pm

Well at one level things wouldn't work. Being a barren wasteland, one can assume the equalized Pegasus ponies no longer control the weather, or at best do a really poor job of it. Earth Ponies would also seem to have lost their ability to grow crops.

And taken to the highest levels, water if Celestia and Luna were to get equalized, who would raise the Sun and Moon ? Even the best unicorns needed a team to do it and it drained their magic over time.
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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:58 pm

Ransom wrote:You know, the episode did a good job of portraying how Starlight's society just wouldn't work in that nobody could do anything well. Clothes were horrible, food was awful, houses lacked design. Nobody could feel satisfied in their work. But beyond that is the more frightening prospect the more practical problems. Without talent, crop failure seems inevitable. If an outside threat came, monsters, changlings, another empire, they'd be helpless. If an illness swept through, who could help them?

The only way I could see the equalist society even functioning is if Starlight expanded her 'exceptions' list beyond herself. "For the good of the community" allow certain essential ponies to have their marks. Essentially, create a select class of citizens for various vital functions.

Which actually makes the prospect of Starlight's society even more totalitarian of course. :starity:

That could be part of why the cutie marks were locked up in a vault, rather than destroyed somehow. Illness marches through? Give the doctor pony back their cutie mark for the duration of the disaster, then remove it again.
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Postby Wylie (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:12 pm

Starlight Glimmer had/has a long-range plan for those cutie marks. She was especially pleased to have gotten Twilight's, in particular. I don't think she bought that equality crap at all- she is interested in the cutie marks for their own sake. I'd imagine her plan involves giving herself all the special talents, as soon as she can figure out a way for them not to instantly zoom back to their rightful owners as soon as they're released from her control. (She should, of course, ask Apple Bloom about how well that turns out, but that's her problem.)

Maybe she's working out a way to distill cutie marks into pure magic that she can retain for herself? I dunno. But yeah, given this season's theme, there's a 100% chance she turns up later to implement Phase 2 of her evil plan.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:18 pm

Wylie wrote:Starlight Glimmer had/has a long-range plan for those cutie marks. She was especially pleased to have gotten Twilight's, in particular. I don't think she bought that equality crap at all- she is interested in the cutie marks for their own sake. I'd imagine her plan involves giving herself all the special talents, as soon as she can figure out a way for them not to instantly zoom back to their rightful owners as soon as they're released from her control. (She should, of course, ask Apple Bloom about how well that turns out, but that's her problem.)

Maybe she's working out a way to distill cutie marks into pure magic that she can retain for herself? I dunno. But yeah, given this season's theme, there's a 100% chance she turns up later to implement Phase 2 of her evil plan.


She seemed to just want a Princesses endorsement. And at the end she wanted only to keep them away from their cutie marks.

If she starts using them to give herself powers then she goes from a neat and original villain to a rehash of Tirek.

I'll be disappointed if they don't keep her a low-level villain.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 5:59 pm

I agree with The Doctor. If Starlight had that level of plan then she'd be a demonic centaur who just escaped from hell, a millennium-old king of shadows, or an ancient god of chaos, not an ordinary pony who became too engrossed in a shortsighted implementation of a well-meaning ideal.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:06 pm

Yeah, put me in the same camp as well. I don't think that's Starlight's sort of plan...I personally think she just wanted the cutie marks for her own reasons, not to be all powerful.
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Postby Chaos Sonic (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:20 pm

The Doctor wrote:If she starts using them to give herself powers then she goes from a neat and original villain to a rehash of Tirek.

I dunno about that. Tirek was just draining magic to give himself an over-all power boost. Using new cutie marks to gain new talents would be something we haven't seen a villain (or anyone else, really) do before. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:07 pm

She does not need the cutie marks for any particular purpose, really.

She is dominant, charismatic, and sociopathic. She clearly enjoys her power in the village. Over time, she has attracted ponies (I do not really believe she has taken that many against their will—plenty of quasi-religious/political causes have lured people in the past, and the abuse that is so obvious from the outside may not appear so from inside if it is applied gradually or justified through the shared ideology/narrative. Besides, if her marks arrived to the village alone or in pairs, they would be far easier to beguile and break than a coherent group of Our Heroines), and keeping their cutie marks (in an attractive display case, no less) is a powerful signifier of power and authority. Showing the equalists their cutie marks from time to time just reinforces that: "This is what I took from you. Wasn't it beautiful when you gave up your uniqueness for me?" I bet she would come up there at night from time to time to gloat.

As for the village lying out in the middle of nowhere, it might well exist by supplementing its own meagre resources by the ‘voluntary’ contributions of its members. Surely, they would not want to make themselves special by holding on to mere earthly possessions when Dear Leader can use it for everypony? If they can keep recruiting (and while far away, still reachable by trains, so they could be advertising for all we know), they can keep existing. Up to a point, of course. (Cue Jonestown).
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:03 pm

I think we'll have to revisit this episode once the season's over. If Starlight Glimmer returns, it may completely change our understanding of what was happening. If she doesn't, then the allegory here stands as it already does.

I have a feeling that if she never returns, I'll feel a little down about how little insight we got into both Starlight and the village. It's not necessary to the point they were making, so they didn't have to provide any background. But I wish they had, even just a little bit. Bringing her back would give us a chance to re-evaluate this vague little cult.
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Postby marshmallow (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:09 pm

I thought Sunset was a waste of potential. She could have been Twilight's Moriarty. So I'm glad to see them revisit the concept of a powerful, scheming unicorn mare to oppose Twilight, even if she's not one of Celestia's former students.

She doesn't strike me as a sociopath. She really believes in her cause, she just has to craft a more self serving message. That makes her more interesting than a lot of the other antagonists who, while entertaining, were either left unexplored or had more straight forward plans of conquest or revenge.

It's true this story is an old concept. It's also basically the entire first season of Korra distilled into 44 minutes, right down to using makeup to cover the truth.

In these false utopia/cult stories it always seems the leadership has some secret that, once revealed, pulls the keystone out of their plans. What if the staff were real, and Glimmer had removed her mark as well? Logic and argument failed to persuade the villagers. They'd have to actually demonstrate what they're talking about, which they sorta did when they were having lunch. Even once it's shown to be a sham, brainwashed cult members often just double down anyway. Would be a little too dark I suppose.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:25 pm

Whether she believes her own ideology seems orthogonal to her being a sociopath. Some of the worst crimes in history have been committed by idealists willing to accept a few losses for the Greater Good. Looking at the Triarchic model for sociopathy I see a lot of matches for Starlight Glimmer.
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Postby marshmallow (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:31 am

It matters if she believes her ideology because it's based around empathy and morals and increasing societal happiness, things a sociopath would be unlikely to care about for its own sake, unless she's just using it to get others to do what she wants. Which would make her less interesting, at least to me.

Sociopaths have such warped mental outlooks they may as well be aliens compared to normal people, so calling someone that is a big charge because it recontextualizes everything they do. You can think she's a dead on the inside superficial glib charmer if you want, I'm just kinda tired of seeing people call anyone in fiction who does remotely bad things a sociopath/psychopath, or medicalizing character traits. It's like they can wash their hands of any character motivations or moral calculations because, oh, they're a psycho, of course they do bad things. Because normal people never do bad things to achieve their goals? It's like a cop out, or a kind of reactionary black and white type of thinking. Like you said, idealists who believe their own propaganda can cause a lot of damage.

Actually that was one thing I didn't like about the otherwise good episode -- when Starlight looked directly into the camera with an evil face while discordant villain music played. Like she knew she was the bad guy or something. No reason to do that if she thinks she's doing the right thing and everyone will come to recognize it. Children's cartoon convention, I know. Can't have the villain be too gray.

For da lulz, RD passes 2/3 of the triarchic model, and parts of the third (destructive thrill seeking). But she has a sense of empathy every once in awhile, so I wouldn't call her a sociopath either.
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:14 am

By the way, that blue pegasus has the best voice. "We're not kept from them, they're in the vault up in the caves!" :twiright:
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Postby Wildfire (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:49 am

Well I think this completes the crossovers for this episode:



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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:32 am

Highbrow Dash wrote:By the way, that blue pegasus has the best voice. "We're not kept from them, they're in the vault up in the caves!" :twiright:

Sugar Belle and Night Glider are both voiced by Rebecca Shoichet (Sunset Shimmer and Twilight's singing voice).
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Postby acksed (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:55 am

:starity: "Applejack... help me." *edges away*
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Postby Ransom (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:56 am

acksed wrote::starity: "Applejack... help me." *edges away*
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I love when they put subtle little bits in the background like that.
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Postby Homeswirl (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:40 am

I agree with all the praise already posted. An excellent premier! *Chef Excellence jingle*

My first reaction with the cult wasn't Harrison Bergeron, 1984, etc. I first saw it as speaking against the whole "no pony left behind", let's not really compete or have winners/losers ideals that's going on in (American) schools in particular. While that's likely not the intent through the whole story, I think that's a very bold move for a kids' show when contrasted against public school dogma.


One thing I've been disappointed in post-S1 is that Celestia has been reduced from a fun character to simply a bland quest-giver in times of need. Now that the Tree of Harmony is giving out quests directly, can Celestia return to being an actual character? Hopefully!
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:27 pm

Homeswirl wrote:I agree with all the praise already posted. An excellent premier! *Chef Excellence jingle*

My first reaction with the cult wasn't Harrison Bergeron, 1984, etc. I first saw it as speaking against the whole "no pony left behind", let's not really compete or have winners/losers ideals that's going on in (American) schools in particular. While that's likely not the intent through the whole story, I think that's a very bold move for a kids' show when contrasted against public school dogma.


That does also put it back into S1 territory in terms of theme, incidentally. Remember how we all made such a big deal of characters like Trixie and Gilda and how "some ponies are just ... jerks (please stop that, Mr. Simpson)"? The answer isn't always a hug and a gold star, nor do the ponies "love and tolerate" every jerkass they come across (Babs Seed was kind of a 90s throwback in that regard). Same deal here, only on a more conceptual level: now the very concept of exceptionalism is on trial, and the Mane 6 defend it handily by showing us how much better life is when everyone is allowed to excel in their own way.

Starlight's plan is a strawman defense against a society where people's shortcomings are such liabilities that they can't even enjoy life; and Twilight and friends restore one in which individual excellence lifts all ships, with malice toward none. The interesting thing is, neither ideologue really addresses the primary complaint of the other: Twilight's cutie-mark-festooned world, like our own, probably does leave some ponies struggling and scraping, though we might like to think Equestria has more free-floating compassion and safety nets in place than ours; and Starlight's pointedly ignores the benefits that cutie marks and special talents can bring and the dullness of life without them. Twilight doesn't argue Starlight down by showing how society can be fair to the little guy, she just restores everyone's abilities and they all remember how much better things were.

It's a 44-minute cartoon :pinkieshrug: , so it can't cover all the bases. And it's also one of the hairiest social problems we've all been wrestling with this century. I don't expect My Little Pony to come up with a coherent answer everyone can get behind. Still, what it does say is consistent—in terms of the message it conveys, and how little regard it gives to those it deems not worth consideration—with the show's early days.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:17 pm

What a twist! :idea:

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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:19 pm

If that had happened, everyone on the face of the planet would have flipped out.
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Postby Frith (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:29 pm

I think this was really good start for Season 5. Better season premiere than TCE or PTS.

It was refreshing to see for a change two-parter where the stakes were lower than the faith of Equestria and to see the villain that was just normal pony. Sunlight Glimmer was cool villain even thought her motives weren't particularly explained. I hope this wasn't the last time we saw her.

The social message about cutie marks was really interesting. I think this was the first time this show tried to tackle theme like this so plus points for the writers for that.

Otherwise, the new side characters were also cool. The writers have clearly put effort into them. Main characters were as great as they always have been. The song served its purpose but I didn't particularly like it.
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Postby Niels Olof (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:01 pm

marshmallow wrote:It matters if she believes her ideology because it's based around empathy and morals and increasing societal happiness, things a sociopath would be unlikely to care about for its own sake, unless she's just using it to get others to do what she wants. Which would make her less interesting, at least to me.


That hinges on her interpretation of those terms—she may well be able to tell herself that she is doing what she has to for the sake of the others. I recall hearing the leader of the Danish nazi party (yep, there is such a thing, they are like fifty sad sacks) talk earnestly about what a wonderful world he wanted to create. I believe he was completely sincere. And utterly misguided. There are fascist idealists, be they nazi, communists, or whatever, as well as ditto thugs. As soon as ideals grow bigger than the mere human, atrocities are seldom far behind.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:04 pm

She did seem to be practicing what she preached. In the context of the episode I think it can easily be argued the only reason she kept her cutie marks was she needed to be able to remove the mark from others. None of the glimpses of the town show her living any differently than the others.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:27 pm

Well, aside from having the one house that sits at the head of all the others instead of in a neat equal-sign row.
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Postby Cthulhu Inc (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 5:53 pm

First among equals :v:
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Postby citric (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:00 pm

Did anyone else think that Sunlight took her own cutie mark off because she resented her sucky talent, and we were going to get a Syndrome-eque monologue about everybody being special?

This episode would have been less of a rehash and better at portraying communism/totalitarianism if Sunlight replaced the cutie marks, but could not herself remove the inherent talents those marks represented.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:16 pm

citric wrote:Did anyone else think that Sunlight took her own cutie mark off because she resented her sucky talent, and we were going to get a Syndrome-eque monologue about everybody being special?

This episode would have been less of a rehash and better at portraying communism/totalitarianism if Sunlight replaced the cutie marks, but could not herself remove the inherent talents those marks represented.


That's a small beef I have with the premise is that she could block the abilities of everyone. Brainwash them all you want, but their abilities are inside them. Not on some sticker on their butt.
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