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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:59 pm

Also why are we pretending Lyra/Bon-Bon isn't a stereotype in itself, the two same gendered 'roommates' who everyone knows about but they don't make it public or whatever? With all the gay baiting they've done for them I'd almost be more annoyed if the hypothetical 'big reveal' was 'oh yea those characters we've done the whole GAL PALS thing with for like three seasons now are gay'.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:45 pm

I don't think it's a stereotype. I think it's the show wanting to have a same sex couple, and doing the best they can get away with.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:51 pm

Bremen wrote:I don't think it's a stereotype. I think it's the show wanting to have a same sex couple, and doing the best they can get away with.

To me it's not quite a stereotype so much as it is a tired old trope that was born perhaps out of necessity in older days of television and still lingers today in shows like this, shows owned by a corporation that's still afraid of being socially progressive for some reason. In this case, is any representation (even if it's flawed as this is) better than no representation, or have LGBT people gotten enough social recognition by now to where it's better for FiM to do no half-measures of this sort? I don't mean that as a rhetorical question, either. I genuinely don't know the answer.
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Postby Discord (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:59 pm

This seems like a boundary FiM is unlikely to push much. And honestly, I've kind of enjoyed how FiM has subverted by having none of its main cast of female characters be invested in romance (outside of Rarity).

It would also seem awkward to push it between main cast members because yeah, their relationships are already too established and the friendship represented there is in and of itself a good thing.

But I'd agree with Fizz that having it explored with a main character and a side character, or perhaps even the CMC, would be the best way to go about it.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:25 pm

I don't see Fluttershy and Rainbow Dash suddenly being a couple because they haven't really been built up like that in anyway. The only relationship I could possible see going that route would be Rarity and Applejack. They have been becoming closer friends over the seasons. But that wouldn't make sense because it is already established that Rarity is a heterosexual.

I think the best character to reveal to be gay would probably be Applejack. She is down to earth, hard working, the rational one. She is best removed from any stereotypes and most likely to best impact that gay people are normal average people. You could even argue that is why she wasn't interested in Tender Hoof. I don't think she should be paired up with any other of the mane six. Introduce a new character for that. She could have an entire episode about being honest to herself. She is the kind of character I believe would be treated less differently if she came out. It would also be a great way to introduce new character development this late in the series.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:38 pm

I don't see how AJ wouldn't be just as much a 'stereotype' as RD honestly, if that's a thing we're supposed to worry about. It's almost like making sure the right amount of checkboxes remains unchecked means representation actually winds up stifled rather than encouraged.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:42 pm

shotgunbadger wrote:I don't see how AJ wouldn't be just as much a 'stereotype' as RD honestly, if that's a thing we're supposed to worry about. It's almost like making sure the right amount of checkboxes remains unchecked means representation actually winds up stifled rather than encouraged.


Is there a harmful stereotype that Lesbians are all hard working, practical women? I've never heard of one.

This isn't about checkboxes, and I don't see why you're trying to claim it is. It's the same reason that if you only have one woman in your show, it's frowned on to make her the shallow, emotional one; it's perpetuating an unpleasant stereotype.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:59 pm

Right and being shallow and overemotional are negative qualities to most people, so yes your one female character exhibiting mainly negative traits is messed up.

Now explain to me how this is the same without also telling saying that 'tomboy' and 'likes sports' are negative qualities for a gay woman
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:11 pm

I don't consider emotional to be a negative trait, but I think perpetuating the idea that women are emotional and men are rational is very much a negative stereotype. Same with tomboys and lesbians. It's a negative stereotype because it makes people assume tomboys must be lesbians, and vice versa, and that creates problems for them.

If there were only two choices here; make RD a lesbian or have no lesbians in the show; then I think you'd have a point. But that's absolutely not the case. They could have any of the characters end up in a same sex relationship, and I think having Applejack be the one would be a nice, stereotype countering way to do that.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:24 pm

Right again I don't disagree that it'd not be the most groundbreaking option, my issue is you're making 'RD likes girls' to sound like the wrong option, because that implies that because this character that's been in the show for six seasons, has had tons of episodes asserting genuine personality traits and all, and has organic relationships with others also happens to check a couple boxes in the 'possible stereotypes' collumn she'd be a Bad Gay or whatever.

Like, shit man I like fashion and musicals and cooking and shit, I've been called 'femme' before as if that's some negative quality for a gay man because those stereotypes exist, maybe it's a fucked up message to send of 'hey lgbt people can be anyone, but if you're someone that some unrelated idiots has ever made a joke about possessing a quality they associate with being lgbt you're basically a walking stereotype and would actually hurt the community'. Like, spoiler alert, idiots have lots of shitty stereotypes, the onus is on them to stop being stupid assholes, not on others to be sure only Correct Gays are shown or whatever.


Again I just don't see how the girl who works on a farm, does a lot of physical labor, does rodeos, actively rejects 'girly' things and all, being gay is somehow 'stereotype countering'.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:33 pm

shotgunbadger wrote:Right again I don't disagree that it'd not be the most groundbreaking option, my issue is you're making 'RD likes girls' to sound like the wrong option, because that implies that because this character that's been in the show for six seasons, has had tons of episodes asserting genuine personality traits and all, and has organic relationships with others also happens to check a couple boxes in the 'possible stereotypes' collumn she'd be a Bad Gay or whatever.

Like, shit man I like fashion and musicals and cooking and shit, I've been called 'femme' before as if that's some negative quality for a gay man because those stereotypes exist, maybe it's a fucked up message to send of 'hey lgbt people can be anyone, but if you're someone that some unrelated idiots has ever made a joke about possessing a quality they associate with being lgbt you're basically a walking stereotype and would actually hurt the community'. Like, spoiler alert, idiots have lots of shitty stereotypes, the onus is on them to stop being stupid assholes, not on others to be sure only Correct Gays are shown or whatever.


Again I just don't see how the girl who works on a farm, does a lot of physical labor, does rodeos, actively rejects 'girly' things and all, being gay is somehow 'stereotype countering'.


Other than rejecting girly things I don't really agree that those are stereotypes of lesbians, and RD rejects girly things to a greater extent than AJ does (in addition to having a host of other traits often used to make fun of lesbians). I mean, I like RD as much as anyone, but it's hard to argue that she wasn't instantly recognized as a collection of lesbian stereotypes by a lot of people; I've never heard anyone assume that AJ must be a lesbian because of how she acts.

The problem with saying it's not Hasbro's job to counter stereotypes is that if they picked a character to be the lesbian they would be actively picking one, and as the token "the lesbian one" character they'd have a high bar to clear about not making it a negative portrayal (like me example about if you only have one woman on the show).
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Postby Highbrow Dash (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:56 pm

One way or the other, it'd be weird if the one gay character was also the one with a rainbow mane :-I
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:23 pm

Bremen wrote:
Other than rejecting girly things I don't really agree that those are stereotypes of lesbians, and RD rejects girly things to a greater extent than AJ does (in addition to having a host of other traits often used to make fun of lesbians). I mean, I like RD as much as anyone, but it's hard to argue that she wasn't instantly recognized as a collection of lesbian stereotypes by a lot of people; I've never heard anyone assume that AJ must be a lesbian because of how she acts.

The problem with saying it's not Hasbro's job to counter stereotypes is that if they picked a character to be the lesbian they would be actively picking one, and as the token "the lesbian one" character they'd have a high bar to clear about not making it a negative portrayal (like me example about if you only have one woman on the show).


This is all the most hand wringy way possible to talk about someone 'acting gay'. When I came out I got a bunch of real cool 'oh but you don't seem gay' reactions that were super fun to hear them explain what 'seem gay' means. Maybe it's actually not a terrible thing for someone with some who displays some 'gay' traits to respond to 'haha that's gay' with 'yea, I am, what?' or something. Like, yea I'd get this point better if her and like, every female Wonderbolt we've seen who pretty much all are similar to her all came out in a big "NO SEE THIS IS WHAT GIRLS LIKE US ARE, BIG OL LESBIANS" thing, but it genuinely feels like you keep trying to say 'no see idiots online call the one with short hair into sports gay as a joke, AND THEY ARE RIGHT TO'.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:26 pm

shotgunbadger wrote:but it genuinely feels like you keep trying to say 'no see idiots online call the one with short hair into sports gay as a joke, AND THEY ARE RIGHT TO'.


I'm sorry, but what? That is literally the exact opposite of the point I'm arguing.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:36 pm

You're saying that the broad categories of 'likes sports' and 'tomboy' and shit are associated with lesbians, but rather than 'and that's a fucked up thing, what genitals you enjoy has nothing to do with that' you seem to be coming at this saying 'and that's why it'd be bad for her to be gay,' which implies that those stereotypes are rightly associated with lesbians and we should avoid having lesbians have them even as aspects of their personality.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:51 pm

shotgunbadger wrote:You're saying that the broad categories of 'likes sports' and 'tomboy' and shit are associated with lesbians, but rather than 'and that's a fucked up thing, what genitals you enjoy has nothing to do with that' you seem to be coming at this saying 'and that's why it'd be bad for her to be gay,' which implies that those stereotypes are rightly associated with lesbians and we should avoid having lesbians have them even as aspects of their personality.


How the hell did you even get that from what I said?

I said nothing about whether those stereotypes are true. I said that if FiM made Rainbow Dash a lesbian, it would come off as perpetuating those stereotypes, which might make people think they're true, because that's how stereotypes work. Either way, it's completely divorced from reality; Rainbow Dash isn't "naturally" gay or not, it's whatever the writers decide to make her.

I in fact specifically said I'd prefer it if a non-stereotypically lesbian character was the lesbian because it would help show exactly what you're saying, that sexuality has nothing to do with any of that.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:02 pm

I think my core problem is if RD was ONLY those traits I'd agree with you, but because she's had like six years to grow as more than those traits it feels like focusing on them is hitting the Bad Gays stuff.

Like, ok, let me try to articulate better. That fashion designer dude Rarity wanted to impress, Hoity Toity or whichever? All we know about him is he is a fashion dude and kinda prissy. If the next time we saw him he was the exact same and also 'I like dudes' I'd be saying that's kinda a really lame way to add a gay character because all he is is a stereotype.

Rainbow Dash isn't like that though, we've seen levels of her beyond 'likes sports' and 'tomboy' and all, so it feels to me like focusing on those and ignoring her other qualities is basically winding up putting you on the same side as the assholes who talk about 'hah, knew it' and all when someone comes out.
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Postby Bremen (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:04 pm

I think I'm just going to withdraw from this conversation, because I'm getting mighty offended and probably about to say something I shouldn't.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:09 pm

I'm genuinely sorry if anything I said was offensive, I really didn't intend it.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:14 pm

I would like to see just more variety when it comes to gay characters. It feels like to many people go with the most obvious choice when making a gay character and that creates a stereotype. Like if you always create a gay character with the same set of traits every time and then you make a new character with those traits people will assume that character is gay and then later if you reveal that character was gay all along no one is surprised. It feels like it just becomes to predictable. The problem is that portrayal becomes so common in media that when people see it in real life they think they are mimicking that portrayal to display who that are.

With Rainbow Dash that image might be damaging. Being a tomboy has nothing to do with sexuality, but if you portray every tomboy as being a lesbian then people will assume that every tomboy is a lesbian. Keeping Rainbow Dash straight will fight the stereotype that all tomboys are lesbians, not that being a tomboy lesbian is a bad thing.

Applejack being a lesbian fits better because she is thought of as being the most normal member in the group thus encouraging the idea that even the most normal people can be gay without having to have that preset of traits that people associate with being gay.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:47 pm

So, "The Cutie Map" has been nominated for a Hugo award...

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:-/ Unfortunately, this is almost certainly nomination pushed by the Sad/Rabbid Puppies movement, which is basically the Gamergate of SciFi/Fantasy. They must have latched onto this episode because it portrays equality as bad.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:33 pm

So they picked it just to fail?
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:45 pm

Soft Snow wrote:So they picked it just to fail?
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Kind of. Hugo Award nominations are strange, but in the past their nominees have been decimated come real voting time. Here's a story on this years awards.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/a ... id-puppies.

It mentions that 62 of the 80 nominations he pushed made it, and I checked his blog and the episode was on the list.


Here's a story with some thoughts by GRRM of Game of Thrones fame.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/a ... zes-future
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:55 am

So let me get this straight, one guy tried to get his novel on the ballot but didn't get enough votes. So he said there must of been to many liberal left voters on the ballot blocking out all the conservative nominations. So he started a group called "Sad Puppies" (because not nominating his work makes puppies sad) to try rig the election by having his supporters flood the ballot with votes he approves of. Then "Rapid Puppies" comes along and claims the system is broken and to prove that floods the ballot with stupid nominations to counter Sad Puppies. That sounds to much like a 4chan move to me.

As long as ponies win, I really don't care. :-P

But that reminds me of the incident were Lovewefine was voting for the new pony shirt designs and one guy said "I have thousands of supporters, I'll have them vote for my low effort drawing to show how broken the system is." That still makes me mad to this day. Why vote in something you have no interest in just to show you can break the system?
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:18 am

Eh, simpler than that; The Sad Puppies and Rabid Puppies are the same thing. The authors at the heads of these movements are mediocre authors who decided that the real reason they weren't winning hugos was because of a bias towards minorities and so rallied the anti-feminist crowd to vote on slates (think party voting cards) to flood the nominations with the idea that they would win if only they weren't crowded out by those affirmative action people.

Flaw in their plan is that they never stopped to consider that the things they were pushing were, put gently, a bit shit. Most of them didn't even get the time of day - the one that did win, Guardians of the Galaxy, was widely agreex to be a good candidate regardless.

Only damage they did was exposing a flaw in the nomination process that, as I understand it, is patched now (they're doing 1 vote split between as many nominees as you like and consolidating as nominees are dropped from the running)
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:48 am

Yea all Puppies was was a bunch of hacks who assumed that they as white guys clearly are objectively better writers than those filthy minorities and it must be a plot to keep them down.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:48 am

It sounds like the voting rules change is being voted on this year, to be implemented next year.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:03 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:It sounds like the voting rules change is being voted on this year, to be implemented next year.


Yeah. Rules and procedures require a few years of votes to change things. This should be the last year.
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:06 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:It sounds like the voting rules change is being voted on this year, to be implemented next year.


Zat so?

Well, doesn't seem like they're anything to worry about - if pony wins it'll be because it's hugo-worthy. If not, then not. In either case all shall be well.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:33 am

Pingcode wrote:
Zat so?

Well, doesn't seem like they're anything to worry about - if pony wins it'll be because it's hugo-worthy. If not, then not. In either case all shall be well.



If it wins it's a victory for a group with a very evil political agenda. The show would basically become their "black friend", something they can point to and say "see, we don't hate women!".

The Hugo Award for Dramatic Presentation has been far too often dominated by Doctor Who and Game of Thrones since they split TV and Movies a few years ago. I would love to see more diverse nominations (though in this years case the Doctor Who episode is amazing, and I hope it wins). Prior to the split, a win by a TV episode over a movie was very, very rare. But this episode, nominated by these people, for their political purposes? I can't get behind that.
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:10 am

The Doctor wrote:

If it wins it's a victory for a group with a very evil political agenda. The show would basically become their "black friend", something they can point to and say "see, we don't hate women!".

The Hugo Award for Dramatic Presentation has been far too often dominated by Doctor Who and Game of Thrones since they split TV and Movies a few years ago. I would love to see more diverse nominations (though in this years case the Doctor Who episode is amazing, and I hope it wins). Prior to the split, a win by a TV episode over a movie was very, very rare. But this episode, nominated by these people, for their political purposes? I can't get behind that.


See you say that but GotG took it last year and it was on the slates and that didn't work for it.

Frankly they can say what they like. They said they succeeded last year too. Fundamentally they have very little power because it's entirely in those imports who only care about the politics - a notoriously temperamental power base if there ever was one.

The only question that needs to be asked is 'is this hugo worthy' and I see little reason for that to change from last year. If it comes in on a slate, what does it matter?
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Postby Bremen (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:46 am

Yeah, just because they nominate it based on whatever tortured logic they use doesn't reflect on the show in any way. I'm not going to be doing any voting but I'll be tickled pink if MLP actually manages to win.
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Postby die Fledermaus (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:57 am

That would work if the point of Puppies style shit isn't to actively block 'SJW' nominations, which basically means any minority
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Postby Pingcode (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:47 pm

shotgunbadger wrote:That would work if the point of Puppies style shit isn't to actively block 'SJW' nominations, which basically means any minority


Well, yeah, not saying it's a good thing that they're jamming the nominations. But in the end, well, it's getting fixed as fast as procedures allow, and given the puppies have proven themselves lacking the power to actually push something that wouldn't be hugo-worthy into winning an award, the damage is minimal at best.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Wed Apr 27, 2016 3:23 pm

On one hand, it's an evil organization bent on world domination. On the other hand, ponies. You can see why I feel so torn on the subject.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:48 pm

Also to be fair the Sad Puppies are kind of like, far more reasonable - after mad criticism last year they switched from 'Here is a slate' to 'Here is our recommended reading list' which tons of other groups do too before the Hugos - basically, something completely accepted for a long time. Aka, they learned and are contributing the way everyone else does.

But the Rabids want to burn the whole thing down, so the Sads got decimated like everyone non-rabid did; their erstwhile semi-allies saw no issues shanking them with everyone else. But yea, this will be the last year before E Pluribus Hugo kicks in and makes this impossible to repeat
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:37 pm

I'm gonna continue the S1 rewatch tonight in about an hour from now.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:00 pm

7:30? I'll be there for sure! My friends want to play D3 at 9 so I might or might not leave early.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:10 pm

Kind of wish they'd also get rid of the separate awards for TV and movies. Even as a big Doctor Who Fan, and really wanting this year's nominee to win, some of the years it's won are questionable. Certainly not up there with the few TV episodes that beat out the movies. And ANY Enterprise episode getting nominated is sad.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:30 pm

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