S05E17: Brotherhooves Social

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Re: S05E17: Brotherhooves Social

Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:16 am

For one thing, trying to make Big Mac's struggle the real issue here totally distracts from the actual issue of what happened in this episode.

Second, saying that 'gun violence in games doesn't encourage gun violence irl, so the same goes for transphobia' is a gross oversimplification of how the media affects public attitudes - especially since MLP is a cartoon for young kids, so, y'know, teaching kids by depicting stuff on TV is the entire point of MLP.

And third - seriously, some nice-sounding words can't fix everything this episode has done, especially when he's not really admitting much was done wrong in the first place.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 2:35 am

Crimson Foxtail wrote:And third - seriously, some nice-sounding words can't fix everything this episode has done, especially when he's not really admitting much was done wrong in the first place.


Whether or not the episode did anything wrong is a matter of opinion. That being the case, nobody associated with the show is required to "fix" or apologise for anything (least of all someone who had no story/script input).

People on both sides of the argument are going to have to accept that the matter is subjective, and expecting apologies or admissions of error is unreasonable. Peter's response is as valid as anyone else's, and probably a lot more respectful than many are.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:14 am

Subjectivity is the matter of business such as 'Rainbow Dash is cool' or 'Pinkie Pie is pink' or 'Rarity is an awful horse'.

But when I say this episode did bad things, I'm not saying that I personally disliked it (I did, but that isn't what I'm trying to say). What I mean is that, undeniably, there are a nonzero number of trans people who found this episode appalling due to the subject matter and their opinions are backed up by a larger social context. It may not have been every trans woman, but it's still far more than I'd like to count.

And it sure as hell isn't unreasonable to simply ask for an actual apology for that.

Also, I'm not in the business of getting into 'respectability' politics, because-

First off, it's real easy to sound 'respectable' when this stuff doesn't affect you.

And second, if this were a game of being respectful, then this episode shouldn't have aired in the first place.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:27 am

Crimson Foxtail wrote:Subjectivity is the matter of business such as 'Rainbow Dash is cool' or 'Pinkie Pie is pink' or 'Rarity is an awful horse'.

But when I say this episode did bad things, I'm not saying that I personally disliked it (I did, but that isn't what I'm trying to say). What I mean is that, undeniably, there are a nonzero number of trans people who found this episode appalling due to the subject matter and their opinions are backed up by a larger social context. It may not have been every trans woman, but it's still far more than I'd like to count.

And it sure as hell isn't unreasonable to simply ask for an actual apology for that.


A group finding something appalling doesn't make the matter concrete in their favour. The issue in question is based on how people feel, and issues like that are always subjective. Enough trans people on this forum alone have stated that they weren't offended to make it clear the issue is not black and white.

And asking for an apology from people who don't feel they've done any wrong is simply going to get you a "I'm sorry you feel that way." People are naturally resistant to admitting fault where they don't believe there was any.
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Postby Adelor Lyon (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:58 pm

Crimson Foxtail wrote:I mean, I've seen plenty of people upset about this episode - maybe not in this thread, but it's definitely a sentiment a lot of people have - and yeah, a lot of people here were fine with the episode, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of people still weren't so... Yeah, many things were done wrong.

Reality doesn't really work that way. People can be upset about things all they want, regardless of how they justify it to themselves and then try to convince people of it. The fact that people were upset about something doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong, and in this case, no one did anything wrong. In fact, there's nothing in this episode that has anything to do with transgender anything, which is why I'm struggling to understand why so many people are calling it transphobic. At no point did Big Mac struggle with his real identity, look in the mirror every day and hate who he is, or feel uncomfortable being who he was born. He didn't face any discrimination inside or outside of his clothing choices, either. This was a standard cartoon "Mr Doubtfire" reimagining: where a guy needs to look like a girl to do an event with his sister. Since it's a cartoon, it's done for the novelty of it. That's it.

It was an appearance thing: No trans-anything, no personal gender struggles, no inner-demons, nothing at all like that.

Anyone trying to project more meaning into Big Mac's character or trying to "headcanon" more behind Big Mac's costume or actions is looking too hard. The "outrage" behind this episode is just another incident of people who like to pick and chose what they want in the alphabet soup non-straight sexuality has become and then force how they want people to act on everyone else. If the people offended by the episode think that a man crossdressing, wearing women's clothing and appearing like a woman while in costume (and [u]only[u/] while in costume) is the same thing as the reality and struggles of actually being transgendered, I think that's pretty darn transphobic in itself.

I think it's a shame the show's staff have to deal with these kinds of people on Twitter and other social media (including the crazies who find the means to to conventions), and between this, Derpygate, Princess Twilight, and so many other [u]imagined and totally unimportant[[u] slights against a minuscule but insanely loud minority of people who call themselves fans and harass the show's staff, I'm surprised so many of them are still sticking around with us and participating so actively with the fandom's members. What upsets me is the possibility the loud fans make the show staff feel disillusioned with the show as well as the fans, so more power to them. :applejackholdingamugofcider:
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:29 pm

Adelor Lyon wrote:If the people offended by the episode think that a man crossdressing, wearing women's clothing and appearing like a woman while in costume (and [u]only[u/] while in costume) is the same thing as the reality and struggles of actually being transgendered, I think that's pretty darn transphobic in itself.


Holy shit, like... you're really giving me this bullshit of an argument?

Crossdressing being used as comedy has a history of being transphobic, like really that's so basic, the joke is literally about how humorous it is for a man to not pass as female and that fucks up trans women pretty badly.

And also holy shit - I'm transgender and you're saying I'm the transphobic one, because a TV show I liked trivializing my struggles made me upset? I'm transphobic for being sensitive about being transgender? You're really pulling that stupid argument?

Newsflash, transgender peope are a minority and they're at severe risk just for existing in a lot of cases so pardon me for being rude, but trans people are way more important than a kids' TV show.
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Postby Space Ghost (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:00 pm

If the people offended by the episode think that a man crossdressing, wearing women's clothing and appearing like a woman while in costume (and [u]only[u/] while in costume) is the same thing as the reality and struggles of actually being transgendered, I think that's pretty darn transphobic in itself.


Man in dress jokes are about laughing at the idea of a man wearing a dress, including laughing at trans women because the joke is that they're "not really women". But, sure, go on believing that the writers are infallable and they'd never write something offensive.

and between this, Derpygate, Princess Twilight, and so many other [u]imagined and totally unimportant[[u] slights against a minuscule but insanely loud minority of people


Transphobic jokes and and entire sequince dedicated to mocking Derpy while potraying her as mentally challanged (right down to naming her Derpy) are totally imagined and unimportant things and anyone who finds it offensive is an insane loud minority that's just ruining your fun.
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Postby J. Jonah Jameson (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 3:54 pm

PaulloDEC wrote:
Whether or not the episode did anything wrong is a matter of opinion. That being the case, nobody associated with the show is required to "fix" or apologise for anything (least of all someone who had no story/script input).

People on both sides of the argument are going to have to accept that the matter is subjective, and expecting apologies or admissions of error is unreasonable. Peter's response is as valid as anyone else's, and probably a lot more respectful than many are.

when something has a very real and recorded effect on society then it being harmful is not a "subjective opinion", it's a proven fact

asking media producers to take into account the messages they are portraying is not unreasonable. especially not when they produce a show that specifically sets out to teach messages. it is not "unreasonable" to hold content creators responsible for their creations, it's common sense.

this show bills itself as teaching that "there's no wrong way to be a girl". And yet, in the space of a few episodes we've had a fat joke and a 20 minute stream of insufferable gags about how Hilarious, Awkward and Weird it is when men pretend to be women. Who is this show even supposed to be empowering anymore?
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:01 pm

J. Jonah Jameson wrote:when something has a very real and recorded effect on society then it being harmful is not a "subjective opinion", it's a proven fact

asking media producers to take into account the messages they are portraying is not unreasonable. especially not when they produce a show that specifically sets out to teach messages. it is not "unreasonable" to hold content creators responsible for their creations, it's common sense.

this show bills itself as teaching that "there's no wrong way to be a girl". And yet, in the space of a few episodes we've had a fat joke and a 20 minute stream of insufferable gags about how Hilarious, Awkward and Weird it is when men pretend to be women. Who is this show even supposed to be empowering anymore?


I hate to go around in circles here, but the question I was addressing was "Did the producers of the show do anything wrong?" Some may have found the message harmful, but in my opinion that still doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong. If I made a paper plane and threw it, and someone got a paper cut trying to catch it, did I do something wrong? Someone was hurt, and perhaps I should've more carefully considered what I was doing, but my actions themselves were not, in my opinion, wrong. I know there are people here who would both agree and disagree with that assessment, which is totally fine.

As for asking media producers to think carefully about the messages they're sending, I think you're absolutely right. We should be telling them what we think of their work, and letting them know when something they do bothers us. It's the only way they'll learn what is and isn't acceptable in a constantly growing and evolving society.

Re: the fat joke, I do feel that was a world away from what was done in Brotherhooves Social. The latter at least was entirely in service of the story, while the former was just a weird thing out of nowhere that served no purpose. I can only assume it's some kind of inside-joke from the production team, as I'd hate to think someone actually thought it was appropriate to have a gag character who's single most obvious trait is their massive size.
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Postby acidtest (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:07 am

The joke about Big Mac's adam's apple was eeeahh. Horses don't even have adam's apples.

It was ok? I'm not entirely sure how you could do a drag episode without it being either offensive or just plain tired. When Steven Universe did the trope it was boring too.

theGECK wrote:Trans Rarity

We have seen her as a young girl horse, all of the above is just conjuncture based on stereotypes. If false eyelashes were only sold to trans women...I'd know a lot of trans women. :-I
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:26 am

PaulloDEC wrote:
I hate to go around in circles here, but the question I was addressing was "Did the producers of the show do anything wrong?" Some may have found the message harmful, but in my opinion that still doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong. If I made a paper plane and threw it, and someone got a paper cut trying to catch it, did I do something wrong? Someone was hurt, and perhaps I should've more carefully considered what I was doing, but my actions themselves were not, in my opinion, wrong. I know there are people here who would both agree and disagree with that assessment, which is totally fine.


This is more like throwing approximately ten thousand paper airplanes, watching as five hundred people get cut, and telling them 'you're fine, no one else got cut!' and refusing them bandages and also you made the planes out of extra-sharp paper without telling anyone. Yeah, okay, that's a bit silly, but making a show isn't like throwing a paper airplane. With a show, you're sending it out to a huge number of people from different backgrounds and histories, not just one person, and it is entirely your fault if something that happens in the show was offensive, because every part of it was controlled by you, the creator(s). Wind won't give people papercuts on TV signals. It's especially troubling given that MLP has quite a bit to do with gender, and so does being trans, so there's a non-negligible overlap of trans people who are (or were) also fans of MLP.

Seriously, it's a bullshit definition of 'hurt' if you're only defining it as whether or not everyone got hurt. If people found the message harmful (and have a whole lot of reasonable context with which to do so), then it was, in fact, harmful, even if it wasn't to you. And insisting this is subjective isn't really helping, because all you're doing is telling minorities that their opinions seriously aren't even worth an apology, which is super shitty and awful and terrible and shouldn't ever be done.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:39 am

The issue here is that people are confusing intent to hurt with whether or not actual damage is being done. I'm sure none of the show staff have it out for transpeople, but that doesn't change the fact that they've caused actual harm. The fact that so many people are expressing that can't be disregarded.
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Postby J. Jonah Jameson (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:50 am

yeah the paper aeroplane analogy doesn't work at all because if someone is catching a paper aeroplane you're throwing to them, they've consented to the idea and are actively engaging in it. Nobody said to themselves "gee I sure am primed and ready to watch an episode of my little pony that will repeatedly and exaggeratedly make a mockery of gender performance" and then decided after the fact that they were hurt by it. your analogy doesn't really work at all

Media has the very real potential to reinforce ideals and encourage mindsets, and it's the responsibility of the creators to take this into account. The reason old cartoons with racial stereotypes in them are no longer aired is because they are, to an extent, a form of propaganda - the jokes in them rely on and reinforce bigoted mindsets. This episode relied almost entirely on the audience finding the idea of a man dressing up as an exaggerated stereotype of a woman comical; if you didn't, then it was 20 minutes of baffled exasperation at best. And really, for a show that claims to be about empowering and encouraging a young audience, I really don't feel like it should be stooping to humour that relies on mockery of appearance or identity at all, even if you do feel like it was somehow ok because of some sort of loophole or another.

PaulloDEC wrote:I can only assume it's some kind of inside-joke from the production team, as I'd hate to think someone actually thought it was appropriate to have a gag character who's single most obvious trait is their massive size.

you'd hate to think that, but there's literally no reason not to. That is the only instance of a character that large appearing, so it's obvious that their appearance was intended to be comical and nothing else. There's having faith in a production team and there's coddling them because you don't want them to be flawed.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 12:51 am

Crimson Foxtail wrote:
This is more like throwing approximately ten thousand paper airplanes, watching as five hundred people get cut, and telling them 'you're fine, no one else got cut!' and refusing them bandages and also you made the planes out of extra-sharp paper without telling anyone. Yeah, okay, that's a bit silly, but making a show isn't like throwing a paper airplane. With a show, you're sending it out to a huge number of people from different backgrounds and histories, not just one person, and it is entirely your fault if something that happens in the show was offensive, because every part of it was controlled by you, the creator(s). Wind won't give people papercuts on TV signals. It's especially troubling given that MLP has quite a bit to do with gender, and so does being trans, so there's a non-negligible overlap of trans people who are (or were) also fans of MLP.

Seriously, it's a bullshit definition of 'hurt' if you're only defining it as whether or not everyone got hurt. If people found the message harmful (and have a whole lot of reasonable context with which to do so), then it was, in fact, harmful, even if it wasn't to you. And insisting this is subjective isn't really helping, because all you're doing is telling minorities that their opinions seriously aren't even worth an apology, which is super shitty and awful and terrible and shouldn't ever be done.


I'm sorry, but it seems like you're saying that any time any piece of media hurts someone, the creators have done the wrong thing and owe the hurt party an apology. That seems naive and unreasonable to me.

J. Jonah Jameson wrote:Media has the very real potential to reinforce ideals and encourage mindsets, and it's the responsibility of the creators to take this into account. The reason old cartoons with racial stereotypes in them are no longer aired is because they are, to an extent, a form of propaganda - the jokes in them rely on and reinforce bigoted mindsets. This episode relied almost entirely on the audience finding the idea of a man dressing up as an exaggerated stereotype of a woman comical; if you didn't, then it was 20 minutes of baffled exasperation at best. And really, for a show that claims to be about empowering and encouraging a young audience, I really don't feel like it should be stooping to humour that relies on mockery of appearance or identity at all, even if you do feel like it was somehow ok because of some sort of loophole or another.


Just to make my position clear, I think the man-in-drag comedy trope is tired, and if using it causes offense or upset to the trans community, I feel that's two really good reasons to stop using it entirely.

J. Jonah Jameson wrote:you'd hate to think that, but there's literally no reason not to. That is the only instance of a character that large appearing, so it's obvious that their appearance was intended to be comical and nothing else. There's having faith in a production team and there's coddling them because you don't want them to be flawed.


The thought process goes like this: "Would a gag making fun of the overweight be approved by the (probably) many dozens of people involved in the show?" The most likely answer to that would be "No." Therefore, the most likely remaining answer would be that it's some kind of an inside joke that isn't just about "Oh look, a fat horse, how funny".

Still wish it hadn't been in the episode, though.
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Postby Kitsune (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:09 am

So what you got from this was that I'm naive and unreasonable?

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if the showrunners can handle creating a weekly animated series, they can handle apologizing to the trans community.
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Postby PaulloDEC (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 2:17 am

Crimson Foxtail wrote:So what you got from this was that I'm naive and unreasonable?

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if the showrunners can handle creating a weekly animated series, they can handle apologizing to the trans community.


Not at all. I just think the idea seems naive and unreasonable. Apologising can be a hard thing to do at the best of times, and it can be even harder if you don't feel like you've done the wrong thing. If nothing else, I'm certain they're sorry that the episode hurt people and I'm sure they're more aware of the potential for that harm now than they were before.

Anyway, I've said my piece and I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. Hopefully I haven't come across as an total asshole. I don't want to keep choking up this thread, so If I have, feel free to PM me if I can do anything about it.
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Postby Discord (?) » Sun Oct 11, 2015 9:25 pm

"I should probably catch up with pony today, it should like fun and -oh boy."

Well, that was a thing.

I kind of wished I had been here for the beginning of how this unfolded, but oh well.

For me, personally, I generally liked the episode alright. The opening segments of Orchard Blossom were pretty uncomfortable and cringey, but I thought that the episode did alright being aware and not overly harping on that point. But I also realize that the second you take the "man-in-the-dress" trope and frame it in a way that makes that idea seem uncomfortable, or questionable, or perhaps laughable, you're stepping onto a lot of bad baggage as far as representation goes.

The ending was spectacular and is one of the best moments the show has produced and it really brings the episode up.

I can see both sides of the argument; the episode tried to navigate a difficult thing and generally didn't go off the deep end with it, but it did ultimately hark to a problematic trope and it did make a big deal with it. Perhaps not for the reasons typically associated with the trope, but that still makes it kind of problematic. And it makes it kind of fall flat in comparison to other modern cartoons working with the trope in what might be the best way possible - being casual with it and not making a plot where the cross-dressing is a big deal, if your episode really isn't trying to be about trans people.

I dislike the brushing off of the argument against the episode I've been seeing around. It was good of New to make a response, one that clearly shows he has good intentions and is very aware of trans struggles, but the point about gun violence/video-games that is pretty much his only evidentiary premise really falls flat in this context and it comes off a kind of condescendingly. Especially when there is evidence of media influencing our way of thinking.

The EqD post on Peter New's response was also really tone-deaf and passive-aggressive. And I can only imagine how some of the arguments must have been.

Ultimately, if you like the episode and want to read it in a way, it's your business and it's fine. It's probably how I'll think of the episode, for the ending if nothing else. I think you can do that while acknowledging that it hurt a lot of people and is problematic in a few ways. Media criticism from a social perspective isn't about "you're a bad person for liking/making this" (ideally), I think; it's about understanding, recognition, raising good questions and trying to push media and culture forward past possible pitfalls and mistakes that re-enforce bad ideas.

All that with the caveat I'm a straight flush of privilege and am no authority on this, of course.
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Postby BurningBright (?) » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:27 pm

This episode is probably one of my favorites and had me laughing really hard almost the entire way, up until the end with the surprise feels.

Yes man-in-drag is cliche, overdone, and can easily get offensive, but once again the writers take something which should be garbage (a premise that sounds like something out of an Adam Sandler film) and make it somehow work well. The little sight gags like the dirty old man pony judge and everyone's faces whenever Big Mac walked by where great, and you could tell that Big Mac's VA had a lot of fun hamming it up. Also, although it's not as heart-tugging as Sisterhooves Social, it still managed to pack in a surprising amount of emotion in the beginning and end. I loved how Big Mac couldn't give a shit if he was humiliating himself, because he was doing it all out of love for his sister.

It's funny because it's awkward and cringey.

Honestly in terms of offensiveness, the Yak episode was arguably (IMO) worse with the "angry savage foreigner that talks funny" thing they had going on.
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Postby Mordja (?) » Mon Oct 19, 2015 1:28 am

Getting close to catching up...

Anyway, this was a great ep! Lots of laughs (as expected of a Polsky episode) and a surprising amount of heart too. Obviously the ending scene stands out but they did a good job showing Big Mac's feelings of inadequacy early on too. Definitely one of his best!
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Postby Jill (?) » Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:21 am

Before even watching this one, the top of dailymotion's comments caught my attention:
this gender propaganda is now everywhere

What could it mean??? Perhaps the episode itself can fill me in.

  • Big Mac is kinda bumming me out already. :fluttersmith:
  • "Your extreme awesomeness is backfiring on me!"
  • Well. I do declare you may be overcompensating just a smidge.
  • That episode happened, I guess. I'm gonna do my best to pretend that most of it didn't though.

I still don't know what gender propaganda is.
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