S05E10: Princess Spike

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Re: S05E10: Princess Spike

Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:43 am

I actually liked most of this episode quite a bit. Spike was in-character and actually competent for the most part. The episode absolutely fumbles at the very end, though, with a lesson about selfishness and abuse of power, when the most damaging decisions he made were the earliest ones he made where he wasn't thinking about himself at all. The lesson and the episode just don't connect very well, and the abrupt joke ending just kinda rubbed it in.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:36 am

I finally got to see this now. Honestly, I actually appreciate this episode, since it's a pretty fuckin' real lesson about how it's possible to crap to go wrong even with the best of intentions. I think it would've come off better if it had made the correct response (learn to recognize when you're in over your head, and learn to ask for help in that case) more clear, instead of going down the "don't abuse power for personal gain" route, but what we got was still nice.

I think what would help Spike is if he had fewer episodes that deal so closely to his primary status as a servant to Twilight (and someone who's ignored otherwise). All the rest of the show's main characters have had more varied kinds of episodes, but nearly all of his stories have been him dealing either with a lack of recognition or an overwhelming desire for wealth and/or power. Equestria Games and JFS had the former and latter, respectively, as themes in them, but both those episodes gave him some more varied interactions with the other characters involved. That is to say, those episodes starring him are the ones that best allowed him to be himself. If we can get more like those (or hell, give us some episodes that do something different entirely with him) then I think people will stop rolling their eyes every time they see that an episode's going to be about Spike.
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Postby Frith (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 1:41 am

I would like to see for a chance a Spike centric episode that doesn't involve him messing everything up. It's a bit boring to see episodes like this over and over again.

Otherwise the episode was decent. It was nice to see Fancy Pants again and some of the new characters looked good. The moral lesson (don't let power go to your head) was also quite good.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:18 am

Niels Olof wrote:While princesses are universally obeyed by default (I suppose because they usually form decisions based on rather more than mere reptilian brains), bad decisions can and will be challenged, and answers will be expected. The princesses are not operating our kind of absolutist autocracy. The form of the whole conference suggests that while ultimate authority lies with the princesses, they rule informed by their populace. (Another strike against annoying fanfic that paints Princess Celestia as a despot :applejargh: ).

Of course, there are plenty of the opposite, fan stories where the princesses are helpless figureheads who can't outmaneuver the conniving nobility. Just as annoying.

It strikes me that all of them are happy to accept Spike's apology because nobody will come asking questions about all these trees that needed to be trimmed and pipes that needed repairing when they're one flap of a butterfly's wings away from exploding on the day of the big pan-Equestrian hootenanny.

Oh, speaking of which, there's a griffon! Representing... an Equestrian city? :ponder:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 2:44 am

I thought about it some more, and something I think Spike needs is some sort of side to him that isn't related to him being a servant to Twilight. He did used to be hopelessly in love with Rarity, but that was largely resolved in SoME and has now been shown occasionally just to be some lingering feelings for her (see Castle Sweet Castle). With that gone (as Meghan McCarthy has said that going any further with that relationship would be really weird), about all that's left is his servitude and sidekick-ness. What he needs are actual friends and peers, not just adults to look up to or bask in the admiration of.

SlateSlabrock wrote:Oh, speaking of which, there's a griffon! Representing... an Equestrian city? :ponder:

I think what was more interesting was that there seemed to be a lack of crystal ponies.
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Postby Mir (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 3:53 am

To be fair, most episodes about ANY of the characters are about them messing up or going off the deep end in one way or another.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:03 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:I think what was more interesting was that there seemed to be a lack of crystal ponies.


There was one in the cold open, when they were panning across the delegates in front of the statue, wasn't there?
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:08 am

There was one who showed up in several scenes. It's just that outside the crystal empire, they don't sparkle. They still have that different looking gradient on their manes and tails that sets them apart, though.
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 4:16 am

You can tell a crystal pony because their eyes' catchlights are faceted instead of round. :spike101:

It occurs to me that we've never ever seen any zebras aside from Zecora, have we? Zebrastan must be really distant.
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To be continued, though!
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:05 am

Yeah, I was surprised that they didn't have a zebra at the conference. Also, I don't think we saw any delegate from Cloudsdale either...unless it was the blue cloud pony.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:20 am

ROBOT B9 wrote:Yeah, I was surprised that they didn't have a zebra at the conference. Also, I don't think we saw any delegate from Cloudsdale either...unless it was the blue cloud pony.


I think Twilight said in Bridle Gossip they come from a distant land, though (which is probably what Mechanical Ape was talking about). So I guess they have their own kingdom/empire/whathaveyou, not just a town in Equestria.

...Unlike the griffons, who by this point I'm feeling are part of Equestria. I looked past the griffons at the Equestria Games and Twilight's line in Lost Treasure, so that I could imagine the griffons having a vast country of their own. But with this too... It's too much evidence against the idea. Might also explain why the rail line goes there.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 6:46 am

It could be a border town, although that's unlikely if the map is correct. But yeah, griffon affairs are in a sad state if the little we see of them in the show is any indication.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:46 am

Perpetual Lurker wrote:There was one who showed up in several scenes. It's just that outside the crystal empire, they don't sparkle. They still have that different looking gradient on their manes and tails that sets them apart, though.

Huh, weird. I totally missed that one.

Also, I figured that one griffon could have just been representing any other city in Equestria. It's not unheard of for a few of them to manage to move out of Griffonstone. (Even if we count Griffonstone as an annexed Equestrian city, I doubt Gilda's gotten it back together quite yet to where they're organized enough to have a proper representation here.)
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Jun 22, 2015 11:02 am

Considering Griffondale was in the Equestrian Games, it could be a similar case here. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:14 am

South Fillydelphia represent!
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:smirk: Or is he from Bel Mare?
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:15 am

Now I wish we'd seen the Carlton dance.

Performed by Pinkie. :party:

:party: A pony, a plan, a canal...Panamare!
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 12:57 am

The Doctor wrote:South Fillydelphia represent!
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:smirk: Or is he from Bel Mare?

Holy shit, I was 90% on the way to figuring this out and petered out. Even the "that dude pony has earrings...where have I seen that?" part.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 1:47 am

On a bit of a tangent, I ran across a blog post about Cadance in this episode from a guy who does decent Cadance stories.

Also, looks like nobody did any screenshots from this episode, so since the iTunes copy is out...

There's that spiky-haired pony again.
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I guess it's just the princess body type, but Cadance looks really skinny. Serpentine, almost. Meanwhile, Twilight... :sheepish:
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Special Agent Sweetie Drops?
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Haha, oh Twilight, you really overdid it this time!
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Ha... ha.... uhhh :starity:
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:bookmobile:
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:spike101: "You see, it's called the Bellamy Salute, and it predates the rise of Italian fascism by several decades!"
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Marco!
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:insomnia:
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I was really looking forward to the "Don't Spend All Your Bits" speech, but when I went into the hall, a pony had taken my seat! A pony who used to be my friend!


A great impressionist.
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Horsie mugs. Also, the taped-up bridge of the glasses is a nice touch.
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Apparently Cadance is able to summon CRYYYYSTTTALLLLLSSSS Image
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Hee-haw!
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You have met with a terrible fate, haven't you?
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Cutie marks!

A new fleur-de-lis from the crystal pony, and a... an emoticon...?
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Stars and palm trees! And a... a bowl of... um...
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...salad?
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...huh.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:05 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:A new fleur-de-lis from the crystal pony, and a... an emoticon...?
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So there's the crystal pony that I missed! And for reference, the lime-green one is the ponysona of Katie Cook, one of the writers in the comics.
SlateSlabrock wrote:...huh.
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Same deal here. That one's the ponysona of Andy Price, one of the most prominent FiM comic artists.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:07 am

SlateSlabrock wrote:A new fleur-de-lis from the crystal pony, and a... an emoticon...?
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...huh.
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:spike101: Those are the OC's of two of the comics staff Katie Cook (Green Pony in the first picture), and Andy Price (second picture).
Image Katie Cook is the one who drew my fabulous Celestia Avatar.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:12 am

Dis dem:

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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:03 am

The Doctor wrote:South Fillydelphia represent!
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:smirk: Or is he from Bel Mare?


Oh my god, how did I not know this? :yay:

But they needed a pony version of Uncle Phil.
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Postby MurdER_weapOn '78 (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:59 am

Perpetual Lurker wrote: It's just that outside the crystal empire, they don't sparkle. They still have that different looking gradient on their manes and tails that sets them apart, though.


Mechanical Ape wrote:You can tell a crystal pony because their eyes' catchlights are faceted instead of round. :spike101:


I didn't know any of this before :-I
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:51 pm

Was anyone else kinda annoyed at ponies coming to Twilight for very basic friendship problems? Felt like the show was dumbing down in a way it rarely does.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:54 pm

I thought it was a spoof of politicians needing help at any given time. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:09 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Was anyone else kinda annoyed at ponies coming to Twilight for very basic friendship problems? Felt like the show was dumbing down in a way it rarely does.

I think it might've felt like dumbing down if they had actually been presented as serious problems, instead of with all the eye-rolling they got from Spike. As it was here, it felt like a joke about them overly worshipping a leader instead of actually making their own decisions.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 4:15 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Was anyone else kinda annoyed at ponies coming to Twilight for very basic friendship problems? Felt like the show was dumbing down in a way it rarely does.

"The pony citizenry are useless" is a funny running gag.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby LunarRainbow92 (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:06 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:
Oh my god, how did I not know this? :yay:

But they needed a pony version of Uncle Phil.


Or Carlton LMAO!
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:10 pm

Joke or not, it kinda ruins some of the immersion/worldbuilding of Equestria as a society if you take it seriously. :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:14 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Joke or not, it kinda ruins some of the immersion/worldbuilding of Equestria as a society if you take it seriously. :pinkieshrug:

Same reason Celestia can't blow up the baddy every time, it doesn't suit the narrative. And I love world building as much as the next person, but immersion is a bit much. They are colorful cartoon horse that talk, ain't no immersion here. They have a managed magical ecology, all rules are out the window and we're just along for the ride.
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Your MRI results have shown total infection to now be approximately one fifth of the full mass of the tissue.

"So you're saying..."

Your brain is about 20% tumor.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:27 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Joke or not, it kinda ruins some of the immersion/worldbuilding of Equestria as a society if you take it seriously. :pinkieshrug:

People who overly value the opinions of celebrities and who try to get others to solve their own easily fixable problems strike me as plenty common. Unless you think Equestrians should be better at that than we are, of course...

I am a bit surprised that you didn't bring up the ponies with the jackhammer and the chainsaw. Those both bugged me a bit, though not for historical reasons (the jackhammer has been around since the 1800s and we've had portable chainsaws since just before WWII). Instead they both seemed rather ugly and brutal compared to the usual way that things tend to be designed in Equestria; though now that I think about it, I suppose that combined with their noisiness was the effect that the animators had intended.
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Postby Mr. Big (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:42 pm

Yeah, the fact that they are noisy made them necessary. And they're familiar and easy to understand.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 5:58 pm

Wayoshi wrote:Was anyone else kinda annoyed at ponies coming to Twilight for very basic friendship problems? Felt like the show was dumbing down in a way it rarely does.

Since the episode was a spoof of conventions, perhaps Perry could answer whether people do this in real life. :-I
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Jun 23, 2015 8:19 pm

:yikes: "Excuse me sir, I know you have to prune those trees, but could you possibly use a quieter method like sawing slowly and painstakingly with a hacksaw held in your—"

:here: "...Why thank you my good stallion. Carry on."
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Postby Durandal (?) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:57 am

ShortSkirtsAndExplosions just posted a fairly interesting analysis of Spike's character from this episode. I'll quote the most relevant parts here:

While that may sound like a total insult to the intelligence of modern day children, I greatly suspect that the marketers/producers of FiM have pigeon-holed Spike into being an eternal metaphor for immature youth, and thus his character is forever doomed to act as the mechanical device for expressing a habitual childhood lesson. Thus, while the likes of Rainbow Dash, Twilight Sparkle, and Fluttershy constantly move towards a higher plane of awareness, Spike is stuck in a sort of crazy meta limbo where he "golly gee willickers" his way from one PSA plotline to another with no hope of escape.


For many of these points I have to agree, because the more I think about it, what else can be done with Spike's character? He's so firmly established as "Twilight's little helper" that to have him develop into anything else would just pointlessly break the narrative. It's apparent that he can't "grow up" - first because Secret of my Excess showed us how awkward it would be to have a teenage Spike around - and second because there's no apparent role that he could be promoted to, unless he were shipped offscreen to, I dunno, serve as Princess Twilight's ambassador to the zebra tribes or something. Any they won't do that because then nobody would care about him.

It's late and I'm just dumping my thoughts at this point :pinkieshrug:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Sat Jun 27, 2015 3:44 pm

Like I've said before, he just needs some actual friends. Think back to how, for example, Apple Bloom behaved in episodes like Bridle Gossip or Pinkie Apple Pie. Compared to the adults in those episodes she was behaving like a kid, which is to be expected, but those aren literally the only sorts of episodes she's had. She's gotten plenty where she's been allowed to be herself, just as Sweetie Belle and Scootaloo have also had. Meanwhile, Spike's barely had anything that isn't about him trying and failing to do something for the Mane Six. Equestria Games is about the closest such thing that he's had.
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Postby Homeswirl (?) » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:42 am

He could learn skills which are appropriate to his age and helping of Twilight. Or of his dragonhood, maybe other special powers like his letter transport system with Celestia.

He could return to being the straight man foil to the some of the jokes or the overt girliness of some of the situations. That's always welcome.

He could be given his own beginning role in the castle, and learn certain responsibilities and have a position from which he could give fledgling input.

There's a lot you can do with the character and not upheave much.
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Postby Pocket (?) » Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:08 am

Getting caught up with these... Headless pretty much hit the nail on the head with my issue with it; the lesson is a bit off message when his more well-meaning decisions are the ones that cause the disaster, even if they set up pretty clearly that they're the ones that are going to come back to bite him. (Although right from the start I was practically shouting at the screen, "CLOSE. THE. WINDOW.") It's pretty much the same problem I had with that one episode of Gravity Falls with the mind-control CD, actually.

But I do get that they were trying to play with the viewers' less charitable expectations, something I remember happening quite a bit back in season one and haven't seen much of since. Like the false lead at the beginning where Spike is salivating looking at the statue — made funnier later when he even listed not eating it as one of his good decisions. Yeah, Spike, I see you seeing me seeing what you did there.

Other scattered observations:

This is the second Spike who wishes he was a princess. Does this count as a G3 callback?

Fancy Pants returns! And I think I actually spotted some 3/4 views on him this time around. Back when I learned how to draw him, I think I had to resort to looking at 3/4 shots of Big Mac to figure out how his face looks from that angle.

Rather convenient for everyone involved that gems apparently just snap together in defiance of gravity like Minecraft blocks.

And speaking of Minecraft: After Fancy Pants opens the door and the water floods out, there's a couple of random splashes with a very familiar sound effect. That's another thing I haven't noticed in a while, stock sound effects that I recognize.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:33 pm

Pocket wrote:(Although right from the start I was practically shouting at the screen, "CLOSE. THE. WINDOW.")

I can say from experience that construction noise has a way of traveling through walls. :ohrarity:
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Postby Mordja (?) » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:25 pm

Rewatch ep #2: Spike episodes are great because they're basically Murphy's Law: The Movie.
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