S05E12: Amending Fences

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Re: S05E12: Amending Fences

Postby Headless Horse (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:42 am

Discord wrote:I imagine Twilight's fame probably played a big factor in Moon Dancer's decline.

Like, let's imagine that the whole Nightmare Moon thing probably hit their school; that Celestia's prized pupil, along with her new friends, restored Nightmare Moon and that Twilight was moving to Ponyville on a special assignment.

Hearing that probably would have crushed Moon Dancer. Not only was she snubbed by someone she considered her closest friend, but also replaced. And not a single thought was spared by Twilight towards her. As time went by and more and more stories from Ponyville filtered in (especially if Lyra was watching from the sidelines), Moon Dancer would get more angry and her self-worth would diminish further.


Good call. Note how they pointedly called out that Moondancer wasn't studying for anything; she didn't say "Yeah fuck Twilight, I'm-a become the top of my field and make a name for myself, and I won't need no Princess' Prize Pupil nepotism to get me there". She was just studying for studying's own sake, just to keep her mind off the world and to keep herself disconnected from it.

Really a pretty dark picture they painted of her. :nngh:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:45 am

Eh, I don't know. Moondancer doesn't come across as someone who is especially prone to jealousy. If that party she threw really was her first attempt at being more outgoing then I can see how she'd be a million times more hurt by it than the other three were hurt by Twilight's past behavior. It takes a lot of effort and mental fortitude for introverts to try to do something like what Moondancer did, so if you work so hard only to have it ruined by someone whom you consider to be a friend, then that's how that goes.
Headless Horse wrote:She was just studying for studying's own sake, just to keep her mind off the world and to keep herself disconnected from it.

Really a pretty dark picture they painted of her. :nngh:

I can agree with this, though. She didn't necessarily want to be a rival to Twilight (that's what Trixie wants), she just wanted something to keep her busy that would require the bare minimum of socialization.
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Postby Frith (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:08 am

This episode was fantastic. The best episode of season 5 so far and at the moment I would say it's also top 5 episode of the show. The story was really well executed and was filled with emotions that felt genuine.

The best part of the episode was definitely Moondancer. Her backstory was sad and very relatable and the moment when she bared her heart and soul at the party is one the most touching moments this show has ever had.

It was nice to see that Twilight still has something to learn about friendship even though she is princess. Her old friends (Minuette, Twinkleshine and Lemon Hearts) were also nice and I liked how they and Twilight interacted with each other.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:15 am

I think her problems were there from the start. She says:
That was only the first time I put myself out there, and then you didn't even bother to show up! Then you left town without saying goodbye even though we were supposed to be friends! I was humiliated! I felt like I wasn't important! I never wanted to let myself be hurt like that again! Those three finally convinced me that I had value! That other ponies might like me and want to be my friend! And you! Didn't! Show! Up!


To me, that sounds like someone who already had a lot of baggage. She was always Twilight's shadow in the flashbacks, and after Twilight didn't come to the party, everyone else drifted away when she blew them off.

If she heard about Twilight and her new friends afterward, it certainly wouldn't help, but I think there's a story we aren't privy to. Obviously, Twilight is Celestia's favored student. Was Moondancer the perpetual salutatorian? Maybe her family was less affluent? Or did she just see in Twilight someone who was equally bad at social graces and wouldn't push her away for being awkward? For whatever reason, Twilight's approval was the only one that mattered.
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Postby theGECK (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:24 am

One aspect I think I'm starting to like about Twilight is that she's very much a pony who is wonderful to those who are part of her daily life, but if you ever step outside of her circle she just forgets to make time for you. You know her, the one who ends up being on the best friend list of everybody but when you ask them when you last saw her, they have to think about it and generally it ends up being something like, "Wasn't she at so-and-so's party?" In Season 1 I would have expected Pinkie Pie to be that person, but Twilight is ending up filling that role. Her brother seems to be one of the most important ponies in her life, but as soon as he dropped out of Twilight's day to day life, she just stopped thinking about him. Her friends and family are still important to her, but the people in her everyday life take up her life and if friends/family outside of her everyday life want to spend time with her they are normally going to have to be the one to take the initiative and contact her or invite her to a social gathering.

It's wonderful to have the introvert be the one who is so busy spending time with the people in her life that she forgets about her closest friends and the extrovert be the one who is willing to spend months an entire afternoon on her own without friends while she goes on a journey.
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:28 am

I don't think it has to be jealousy. Seeing a dear old pal succeed while forgetting about you can really hurt without any further impetus.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 3:36 am

I really didn't get a jealousy vibe from Moondancer. Even when they were doing the flashback they seemed to be working together. My guess is they constantly tried to one-up each other.
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:16 am

It just hit me why Moondancer stormed out of the room when she went out to dinner with her old friends. You know, the dinner where they were sharing stories about Twilight's slumber party awkwardness and Lemon Hearts's job planning events for the palace? It's because they can't fucking shut up about parties.
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Postby WandereringPony (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:02 am

Seven Seas wrote:It just hit me why Moondancer stormed out of the room when she went out to dinner with her old friends. You know, the dinner where they were sharing stories about Twilight's slumber party awkwardness and Lemon Hearts's job planning events for the palace? It's because they can't fucking shut up about parties.


And Moondancer's rage meter grew by three sizes that day.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:12 am

I never thought of it in that way but it makes perfect sense.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:36 am

Headless Horse wrote:Loving the commentary ITT, especially Pictish's :twasnothin:


aw, that was nice.

shit what do you say back in these situations?
"thhhhank you???"

I think why this ep was so affecting to me is that I'm really shitty at being a friend. Not that I actively blow people off like Moondancer (though yeah, guilty) but that I just let things drop and utterly forget about them five seconds later, so watching Twilight try to fix the same mistakes and doing it so shittily and awkwardly...it feels real, and it hurts.

This ep reminds me of "Ikea/Piano Lesson" from Season 3 of Louie, where Louie decides to go visit fellow comedian Marc Maron and apologize for a past slight. Except what happens is (copypasted from a review):

The apology Louie offers is sincere and heartfelt, but in some ways empty in that it's only that -- on "Louie," Maron points out that Louie had come over five years ago and did the exact same thing once before, something he'd forgotten, and that their relationship has apparently been unchanged since. If you really want to reestablish a friendship, you have to do the work of actually being a friend, asking how someone is, going out to coffee, spending the time -- being a friend.


That episode was painfully surgical at hitting similar "oh my god I'm just as bad aren't I" feels.
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Postby The Outlander (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:12 pm

Woooooowww, the :ponydrugs: flow through me. I'm super happy about this episode, and nearly every episode this season to be honest. I mean, we had like, Castle Sweet Castle as our only average one so far? And it's not like that one was terrible. All other episodes have managed to pull on some manner of emotion. I'm really digging the trend of more mature morals, though I think this works best as the fifth season of this craziness. If the show had started like this, I'm actually not sure I'd have respected it as much as I do now, if that makes any sense.

I love that the ponies are a race who can't make sense of their world, because we as humans can't even make sense of our own. Too often in fantasy you have groups who are sort of passively treated in a racist way, because they are absolutely sure of their ways and behaviors and the way the world works in a way that no real society can be, as far as we know it. I think portraying a more "real" society, somehow, than the vast majority of make-believe races I've seen in other entertainment is a great achievement for the show and everyone who has worked on it.

So, the episode. I know we've seen stuff like this in other shows, but I'm not really a big TV person in general and might not get my examples right. Anyways, the fact we have enough of a mythology built up to even make something like this is astounding, and I think the fact that our ponies have come so far makes it feel more well-earned. Twilight herself reminisces about her own adventures for a short moment ("battled countless monsters, saved the world", something to that effect) in a way that makes her feel a lot older than she probably is. For her to have a nostalgia for these events in the same way she has nostalgia for what's going on during the episode makes her, much like in the Season 1 premiere, the perfect proxy for the viewer. This time though, she's not there to air the frustrations of someone cynical to the tropes of feminine entertainment, but to convey longtime fans' perspectives on the show to these characters who have been away from it for so long. I think it's a role that Twilight pulls off the best, and it's probably the best job-security she has insofar as proving herself to be the main character. She isn't meant as a vehicle for expressing the writers' thoughts, or an intrepid bystander, or a deus ex machina power-level war-machine. She's best as someone for the audience to channel themselves through, because this world is just as alien to her as it is for us, even with how familiar we both feel with it after over four years of fun and adventures.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:29 pm

I don't envy M.A. Larson's job as writer for this episode's premise. "Okay, it's about Twilight's old friends in Canterlot. Cool, cool. Wait, we've seen these ponies elsewhere, haven't we? Shit they've popped up all over the place, because they're background assets. Shit, one of them is Lyra!"

And then he establishes that Lyra moved to Ponyville from Canterlot and that the others visit her there from time to time so that's a couple continuity errors sorted, which leaves the question of why Twilight wouldn't have run into all of them many times already before this episode (especially Lyra). And I love that his decision was yes, Twilight is really that bad of a friend. :-I

All of Twilight's "what were their names again?" moments had the potential to be really alienating for the protagonist of an episode but I thought they worked (and were way funnier) precisely because Twilight had effed things up so badly.
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Postby Octavia (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:13 pm

Was rewatching the episode and I just noticed this:

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You actually see the opposite side of Minuette's hair instead of just a mirror image! :starity:
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:24 pm

PictishBeast wrote:I don't envy M.A. Larson's job as writer for this episode's premise. "Okay, it's about Twilight's old friends in Canterlot. Cool, cool. Wait, we've seen these ponies elsewhere, haven't we? Shit they've popped up all over the place, because they're background assets. Shit, one of them is Lyra!"

Speaking of which, did anyone else notice that DHX purposely broke out all the other Season 1 background ponies for this episode? Like, possibly the whole dang database, minus those who've had a speaking role? I thought that was a really nice, nostalgic touch. :)

Image

For example, that's Berry Pinch, Lyra, Dinky Doo, Amethyst Star, Sea Swirl, and Liza Doolots (who I had to look up, but apparently she was the one bouncing along next to Dinky Doo during the Winter Wrap Up song). I just paused the episode on a bunch of random crowd scenes and found Shoeshine, Raindrops, Parasol, Royal Ribbon, and Amethyst Star and Sea Swirl again as adults, and I'm sure there are many more.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:28 pm

Did Twilight and Moondancer model their hair off their old Science teacher, because that is just super :3:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:39 pm

Seven Seas wrote:Image

I was thinking about this scene again earlier today and I realized that Moondancer must've felt closer to Twilight than any of the other four in that group. Their personalities seem a lot more similar, even down to their hairdos. I think that goes a long way to explain why Moondancer felt so hurt at that party, even though Minuette, Lemon Hearts, and Twinkleshine made it.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:18 pm

If they ever do another flashback episode, I hope that we see more of Twilight at school. :allears:
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:23 pm

"Liza Doolots"? Who the hell fan-named that?
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Postby Seven Seas (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 8:56 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:I was thinking about this scene again earlier today and I realized that Moondancer must've felt closer to Twilight than any of the other four in that group. Their personalities seem a lot more similar, even down to their hairdos. I think that goes a long way to explain why Moondancer felt so hurt at that party, even though Minuette, Lemon Hearts, and Twinkleshine made it.

From the way Moondancer acted and still acts around Twilight, I get the sense that their relationship was very one-sided. Moondancer may have genuinely idolized her, I don't know; at minimum, I think she considered Twilight her best friend, whereas Twilight, in true Twilight fashion, was so selfish and oblivious that Moondancer barely registered. We know that young Moondancer has the same manecut as Twilight (did she copy it?), that she wants Twilight to notice her intelligence, that she becomes dejected when Twilight treats her with contempt, and that she's utterly crushed when Twilight finally makes it clear how little she values her.

And I think the same dynamic continues into the present. Twilight has changed; she is open, apologetic, and genuinely wants to rebuild this friendship she screwed up so badly, but even if she succeeds, Moondancer isn't even going to rank on the list of her most valued friends. Moondancer, though, is still just as lopsidedly drawn to Twilight as ever; she spends the entire episode on this unhealthy yo-yo ride, alternately dazzled by Twilight's intelligence/shared interests and pushing her away every time she remembers the boundless capacity Twilight has to hurt her. Twilight cares, but Moondancer cares a million times more.

God, I haven't been able to get this pony out of my head. Complex, troubled, lonely Moondancer is my favorite side character in the show, and I have a lot of respect for M.A. Larson for writing her.
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Postby Perpetual Lurker (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:04 pm

I absolutely love this episode, for all the reasons said already.

If I had to say one thing, though, it's that hearing Spike list all the names of Twilight's old friends, and every single one of them being some name only seen on blind-bag cards was kinda surreal. It's like some merchandise-show feedback loop that makes perfect sense, but my familiarity with the names involved just make it super weird, in a good way.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:49 pm

MurdER_weapOn '78 wrote:Moondancer's rant near the end was pretty intense, with her waving that big stick around for some added menace.


The fact that she's only magicking the grip really helps sell this:

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If they'd drawn the aura around the whole thing it would have felt like she was levitating it. Instead this feels more like "I'm this close to using this stick to beat the crap out of you."
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:17 am

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Postby Master_Twig (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:45 am

Funny thing is, after this episode I bet Twilight goes right back to barely interacting with her old Canterlot friends.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:02 am

Image

I feel bad that Moondancer never got the bear. :fluttersmith:

Seven Seas wrote: Twilight has changed; she is open, apologetic, and genuinely wants to rebuild this friendship she screwed up so badly, but even if she succeeds, Moondancer isn't even going to rank on the list of her most valued friends. Moondancer, though, is still just as lopsidedly drawn to Twilight as ever; she spends the entire episode on this unhealthy yo-yo ride, alternately dazzled by Twilight's intelligence/shared interests and pushing her away every time she remembers the boundless capacity Twilight has to hurt her. Twilight cares, but Moondancer cares a million times more.

This is a good observation.

Master_Twig wrote:Funny thing is, after this episode I bet Twilight goes right back to barely interacting with her old Canterlot friends.

So is this.
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Postby Headless Horse (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:07 am

Master_Twig wrote:Funny thing is, after this episode I bet Twilight goes right back to barely interacting with her old Canterlot friends.


Friendship problem solved. :wingsright:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:16 am

PictishBeast wrote:
The fact that she's only magicking the grip really helps sell this:

Image

If they'd drawn the aura around the whole thing it would have felt like she was levitating it. Instead this feels more like "I'm this close to using this stick to beat the crap out of you."

I agree, that was a nice detail. It reminds me of how Rarity treated Spike's awful pie in SAYS:
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If she had hands, you can tell she'd totally just be pinching the end of the fork between her thumb and index finger. It's interesting how the animators can make something so abstract feel so analogous to a human expression.
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Postby PictishBeast (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 2:12 am

Whoa, Minuette is this pony!

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I honest to god did not realize this until just now

e: jesus Twilight she was right there, you could have said hi or something
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:46 am

So wait, if that's Minuette, what was she doing in Ponyville?
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Postby Discord (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 5:50 am

ROBOT B9 wrote:So wait, if that's Minuette, what was she doing in Ponyville?


Visiting and probably deciding to take part in a county winter wrap up.

When you think about it, they lead pretty busy lives with all the things they go to. :-I
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Postby Wayoshi (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:04 am

Master_Twig wrote:Funny thing is, after this episode I bet Twilight goes right back to barely interacting with her old Canterlot friends.

Just like Gilda probably won't be seen again, or the Griffon Kingdom. Hey, we can assume much goes on in the background at this point.

At this point with Minuette... that friendship train is getting a real workout! :hiiiii:

By the way, in chat and many other places, people thought Twi was going to go all time travel. Am I the only one who correctly realized it would just be a Pinkie party? :-P
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:06 am

You know, I was thinking that this all might come to play at the end of the season.
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Postby londonarbuckle (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:13 am

Every time we've seen new characters (or old characters being expanded) this season, I keep hoping we'll see more of them even if we probably never will.

I'm starting to wonder if I still love this show but am just sick of the Mane 6.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:57 pm

Wayoshi wrote:By the way, in chat and many other places, people thought Twi was going to go all time travel.

I'd been joking about this mainly since I was desperately trying to think of something that would be relevant to Minuette's name and cutie mark. :v: Of course, maybe she just makes clocks, hourglasses, and other timepieces.
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:14 pm

Pinkie was the really obvious choice there. I was just a little surprised we had two episodes back-to-back where Pinkie pulls everyone's bacon out of the fire. What are they going to do when she's too busy to throw a party someday? :gah:
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:17 pm

ROBOT B9 wrote:So wait, if that's Minuette, what was she doing in Ponyville?


Image

Visiting her Grandfather.
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Postby ROBOT B9 (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:33 pm

But he looks so young to be her grandfather unless its time travel shenanigans. :v:
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Postby Mechanical Ape (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:47 pm

SlateSlabrock wrote:Pinkie was the really obvious choice there.

That reminds me, I appreciate the reasonable use of Pinkie in this ep. She didn't dominate the proceedings and the last 10 minutes were not given over to Pinkie wackiness (and I'll bet the temptation was there). She was just well-used and great.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:52 pm

I still love how Pinkie and Minuette were friends. Pinkies, "and you call yourself the Princess of Friendship" line was great.

:skeptical: You REALLY need to get out more Twilight. Get to know more than just the same 5 ponies.
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