S07E10: A Royal Problem

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Re: S07E10: A Royal Problem

Postby Daring Do (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 1:20 am

Theory: Twilight was never there in the music box at all. Starlight is schizophrenic, and Twilight was the manifestation of her own inner doubts.
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 1:27 am

The Doctor wrote:
Character growth? She continues to violate others by forcing her magic upon them.


I think they're building for this being a lesson down the road, so I can't blame her for it. Like, season ending or something is her magicking everything ever and having to learn that you have to ask first. :v:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 1:48 am

The Doctor wrote:I just can't get past this character flaw, and it's fourth time she's done this.

You know what? I see a lot of myself in your comments when I utter hate something about a character everyone else loves. While I don't agree with your sentiment, I appreciate the passion of your opinions. Your comments make me feel human, thank you.

Daring Do wrote:Starlight is schizophrenic, and Twilight was the manifestation of her own inner doubts.

Being a former schizophrenic myself, I don't think my hallucinations were ever the result of my emotional feelings. It felt more like being trapped in a waking dream where I saw people around me doing and saying things they weren't actually doing while real people sounded like they were talking in gibberish. I get it was a joke and I found it funny, but my own experience make me feel like Twilight would have seemed her normal size to her.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 1:52 am

Soft Snow wrote:You know what? I see a lot of myself in your comments when I utter hate something about a character everyone else loves. While I don't agree with your sentiment, I appreciate the passion of your opinions. Your comments make me feel human, thank you.


Being a former schizophrenic myself, I don't think my hallucinations were ever the result of my emotional feelings. It felt more like being trapped in a waking dream where I saw people around me doing and saying things they weren't actually doing while real people sounded like they were talking in gibberish. I get it was a joke and I found it funny, but my own experience make me feel like Twilight would have seemed her normal size to her.
:pinkieshrug:


Oh. Wow. Thanks for sharing... Hope I wasn't being insensitive.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 2:06 am

Daring Do wrote:
Oh. Wow. Thanks for sharing... Hope I wasn't being insensitive.

Nah, your fine. But it always leaves me with a weird feeling when people bring it up because it's a unique experience few people understand. I tend to clarify it whenever people joke about it. I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable about bringing it up.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 2:16 am

I like Starlight because of all the things Doc hates about her.

I love the way she solves problems by just magic-ing it.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 2:23 am

Soft Snow wrote:Nah, your fine. But it always leaves me with a weird feeling when people bring it up because it's a unique experience few people understand. I tend to clarify it whenever people joke about it. I hope I didn't make you feel uncomfortable about bringing it up.


As long as you're good, I'm good. :)
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 2:48 am

Aramek wrote:I like Starlight because of all the things Doc hates about her.

I love the way she solves problems by just magic-ing it.


I too feel this way. I find Starlight hitting things with magic to be engaging and interesting and YES STARLIGHT GLIMMER was amusing to me and this is pony world where things like random mind control just happen :v:
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Postby Yolostar (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 2:58 am

What a good fucking episode. Princesses actually did things! Starlight continues to be cool! Daybreaker! Princesses represented as actual real people ponies instead of the bland ultra-wise all-powerful demigoddesses the fandom likes to paint them as! Best episode of the season and probably at least top 10 for me!
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Postby PonyHag714 (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:09 am

I like the streak of fire and independence Starlight has, ever since she angrily cut off Twilight's friendship speech way back when. I think Pony needs that kind of character, just for balance. Image
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:11 am

Dexanth wrote:
I too feel this way. I find Starlight hitting things with magic to be engaging and interesting and YES STARLIGHT GLIMMER was amusing to me and this is pony world where things like random mind control just happen :v:

This is my take on it too, pretty much. Starlight's actions in Every Little Thing She Does might seem abhorrent to us, but in a world where crazy giant monsters show up and get swept away all in about half an hour, is it really that bad? Weird magic stuff happens, might as well have fun with it.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:26 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:This is my take on it too, pretty much. Starlight's actions in Every Little Thing She Does might seem abhorrent to us, but in a world where crazy giant monsters show up and get swept away all in about half an hour, is it really that bad? Weird magic stuff happens, might as well have fun with it.


Again, she's violating others. Magical world or not, it's a shitty thing to keep doing I think. And worst of all, she's not learning from it, she's now being praised for it. She has absolutely no regard for others if they aren't acting the way she wants them to. Hell, that was the point of "Every Little Thing She Does", and apparently it's not longer a big deal. That's bad character development.

Yeah, lots of weird things happen in Equestria. Like when Twilight swapped everyone's cutie mark. It was an accident. Starlight intentionally screws with people, over and over again, never once asking someone for their consent.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:30 am

The Doctor wrote:
Again, she's violating others. Magical world or not, it's a shitty thing to keep doing I think. And worst of all, she's not learning from it, she's now being praised for it. She has absolutely no regard for others if they aren't acting the way she wants them to. Hell, that was the point of "Every Little Thing She Does", and apparently it's not longer a big deal. That's bad character development.


I don't think the writers are looking at it through the morality lens of agency and the philosophical ramifications of mind control so much as 'This will be fun and funny to write about/animate'
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:31 am

Dexanth wrote:
I don't think the writers are looking at it through the morality lens of agency and the philosophical ramifications of mind control so much as 'This will be fun and funny to write about/animate'


Would have been funny to write about an animate if she had suggested it as a plan to Celestia and Luna and them given her permission. Or if they had asked her to do it. Would have made her less of a sociopath, and really wouldn't have changed anything else about the episode. She would still have her fears of it not working.
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Postby Aramek (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:33 am

If I had magic brain blast powers, I'd do it pretty constantly and not feel bad about it.

And the best part? If anyone complained? They'd get the brain blast!

It's like the Deneuralizer from MIB. Just, fuckin', blast'em. Who cares?

They're in your way? You move them. With magic.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:34 am

Daring Do wrote:
As long as you're good, I'm good. :)

It is really surprisingly how these pony conversations can lead to some unexpected happy places. I'm going to remember these times fondly.
:allears:

(off-topic)
This place is pretty chillaxed. I feel safe saying such things here. Like no one would judge me. My only fear/discomfort is what people would think of me, like they would think I was crazy. Because that is normally the end spectrum of what people consider crazy. But when you are like that, your definition of crazy changes. It feels more like a disability that you can't control whereas being crazy takes on the meaning of having some level of cognitive control over your actions. So calling someone crazy for being like that feels hurtful because it implies they are doing it on purpose. Like calling someone who is having a seizure crazy.

Saying this actually makes me feel like really happy and refreshed. Like I feel relieved I can say this openly, like a weight has been taken off my shoulders. Like I don't have to be ashamed of this anymore. Like I'm no longer living under a shadow. I'm in a really good mood now. Thank you.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:37 am

The Doctor wrote:
Would have been funny to write about an animate if she had suggested it as a plan to Celestia and Luna and them given her permission. Or if they had asked her to do it. Would have made her less of a sociopath, and really wouldn't have changed anything else about the episode. She would still have her fears of it not working.


See, I think we see it through different lenses.

To me the progression is:

Starlight goes there to find out what's up, spends a few days realizing it is Celestia & Luna while Twilight continually freaks out more and more, Starlight works to find a way to bring it up (While Twilight's freakouts start to get to her), and when things keep getting worse, well, at some point she panics and does the Swap.

Contextually I saw it far more as her going 'Shit this is all falling apart they are fighting even more now what do I do AHA!' and then she leapt before looking.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:40 am

Dexanth wrote:Contextually I saw it far more as her going 'Shit this is all falling apart they are fighting even more now what do I do AHA!' and then she leapt before looking.


And how many times does she get to do this before it's a problem? This would have been a great opportunity for her to finally grow out of that. But apparently, her forcing her will on others is now something others praise her for. I don't think that's right.

I'd like to like Starlight, but her actions are despicable, especially because she never realizes it's wrong and learns from it. She does it. Realizes it's wrong. Does it again. Realizes it's wrong. Does it again. Realizes it's wrong.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:44 am

The Doctor wrote:
And how many times does she get to do this before it's a problem? This would have been a great opportunity for her to finally grow out of that. But apparently, her forcing her will on others is now something others praise her for. I don't think that's right.

Well, what is the alternative? She panicked in the face of Celestia and Luna bickering with each other, after more diplomatic means failed. She's pretty obviously trying not to do this sort of stuff as a first resort anymore. Is she too dangerous to exist? Does Celestia need to call Tirek up, have him suck out all Starlight's magic, and send him back to hell with it? Or can she be brought about to use her power for good?
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:49 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:Well, what is the alternative? She panicked in the face of Celestia and Luna bickering with each other, after more diplomatic means failed. She's pretty obviously trying not to do this sort of stuff as a first resort anymore. Is she too dangerous to exist? Does Celestia need to call Tirek up, have him suck out all Starlight's magic, and send him back to hell with it? Or can she be brought about to use her power for good?


Well, here's an idea I totally haven't said a billion other times in this thread.

SHE :spike101:
COULD :spike101:
HAVE :spike101:
ASKED :spike101:

We've already seen her casting magic on others without asking. Maybe try having her learn something from those events and ask someone's permission. This episode could have shown her using her magic responsibly and for good. Instead, she once again uses it irresponsibly and lucks out that it worked.
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 4:01 am

She did ask them, though. Specifically, she asked Celestia and Luna to consider each other's grievances. When that got them to fighting even more, and after having been fed a healthy dose of neuroses from Twilight, that's what made her panic and take drastic measures to stop what she perhaps thought, for just a second, was going to be the start of a new dark age for Equestria. I really wouldn't expect Starlight to be able to keep cool in the face of two titans about to clash, at least not now.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 4:09 am

Fizzbuzz wrote:She did ask them, though. Specifically, she asked Celestia and Luna to consider each other's grievances. When that got them to fighting even more, and after having been fed a healthy dose of neuroses from Twilight, that's what made her panic and take drastic measures to stop what she perhaps thought, for just a second, was going to be the start of a new dark age for Equestria. I really wouldn't expect Starlight to be able to keep cool in the face of two titans about to clash, at least not now.


That's why I also think Celestia and Luna could have been written as having some common sense in the situation. At least some awareness of it. Get rid of them fighting when it's brought up. Have Starlight point it out, suggest a possible solution, and Celestia and Luna agree to it. Would have made all three look better, and the rest of the episode would still proceed as is.

Twilight would still freak out over what she did.
Starlight would still worry about doing the wrong thing.
Luna would still have silly antics
Celestia would still find Starlight having nightmares over the situation.


It pretty much comes down to me wanting this character to actually develop and learn something. I think this episode was a perfect opportunity for Starlight, and for me, it was blown opportunity.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 4:17 am

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:speakest: Hello banana my old friend. I've come to gnaw at you again.

Image Because your skin softly ripening, Left brown spots while I was sleeping…

Image And the taste that was planted in my brain, Still remains

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:unenthused: Within the gooiness ... of banana

Image ...

Image
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Image That was exceedingly clever, was it not?
...


Image ... and then out of nowhere she was singing this badly rhymed song about bananas -
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Image This is TERRIBLE! I thought I knew everything about the princesses! I never knew Luna listened to folk rock! This changes everything!
Image Well, you're as useful as a chocolate teapot.
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Postby Daring Do (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 5:03 am

Soft Snow wrote:It is really surprisingly how these pony conversations can lead to some unexpected happy places. I'm going to remember these times fondly.
:allears:

(off-topic)
This place is pretty chillaxed. I feel safe saying such things here. Like no one would judge me. My only fear/discomfort is what people would think of me, like they would think I was crazy. Because that is normally the end spectrum of what people consider crazy. But when you are like that, your definition of crazy changes. It feels more like a disability that you can't control whereas being crazy takes on the meaning of having some level of cognitive control over your actions. So calling someone crazy for being like that feels hurtful because it implies they are doing it on purpose. Like calling someone who is having a seizure crazy.

Saying this actually makes me feel like really happy and refreshed. Like I feel relieved I can say this openly, like a weight has been taken off my shoulders. Like I don't have to be ashamed of this anymore. Like I'm no longer living under a shadow. I'm in a really good mood now. Thank you.
:good:


That actually brightens *my* mood, knowing I somehow helped you that much without even meaning to. :P I guess sometimes all you need is a listening ear, or something equally cliched. But seriously, I'm really glad to hear that. Little bit of a bright spot for me before bed.
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 5:09 am

The Doctor wrote:Starlight would still worry about doing the wrong thing.


I'm loving this conversation so far. Reminds me of the good old days of the fierce debates during season one. You can't be this passionate about show you have no interest in.
:munch:

But I have in intervene a bit, why would Starlight still worry about doing the wrong thing if she asked first and all parties agreed? Twilight would still be panicky for sure, but Celestia and Luna would have realized the problem on their own and asked Starlight for help switching their marks. She might still be there to assist them with their new assignments, but the responsibility to get them to stop fight won't actually be hers to deal with. It would also mean the map wouldn't actually call Starlight because the sisters would have figured out a plan to solve their problem on their own. Starlight's sole purpose would be to cast the spell to switch the cutie marks and she would be done with the story outside of just observing their antics. Twilight panic would have shift from "don't screw up the job" to "don't disappoint the princesses." Twilight would know ahead of time what is expected of Starlight and her limited role. There would be much of a reason for her to worry about what Starlight does beyond the spell because what other reason for Starlight to be there? We probably wouldn't have a nightmare sequence involving Daybreaker either, because frankly there is nothing for Starlight to screw up on to make her worry that if she fails this outcome will happen. They would probably have to change the last part to Celestia fighting off an Ursa Major as a way of protecting the kingdom at night instead.
:rariwhat:

You could keep most of the same plot, but the story shifts when it moves from Starlight solving the problem to the sisters revolving their own problems. Which would diminish Starlight's role entirely, meaning she probably would have much development in this episode as a result. I could imagine you could just have Starlight do the spell swap in the cold open then leave her out of the episode entirely and just focus on Celestia and Luna instead. You probably wouldn't need the pancake scene either because you wouldn't need the build up to show they aren't getting along because they refuse to talk about their issues because it would have already been established that they have talked about it and want to revolve it already. When I think about it, that thread would change a lot of the structure of the episode. Starlight would just show up, swap cuties and go back home. No real reason for her to stay there. The rest of the episode would focus exclusively on Celestia and Luna. Starlight would just feel like a hamfisted cameo.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 5:15 am

Her anxiety came a good amount from Twilight. And Twilight still would have freaked out about it, even with their consent. I think Starlght still would have freaked out wondering if it was the right thing to do and second guessing the plan. She would still have a nightmare about the worst imaginable scenario.
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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 6:12 am

Is what Starlight did morally right? Probably not. Is it something totally in character for her? Yes. That's really all it comes down to in the end. :v:
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Postby Soft Snow (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 8:12 am

The Doctor wrote:Her anxiety came a good amount from Twilight. And Twilight still would have freaked out about it, even with their consent. I think Starlght still would have freaked out wondering if it was the right thing to do and second guessing the plan. She would still have a nightmare about the worst imaginable scenario.

But would be worst imaginable scenario for two ponies who realize they have a problem and are trying to solve but fail to do so? What would develop that would make Starlight question if it was the right thing to do? Because at this point in the revision of the story the two sisters are still willing to talk to each other to work things out. There would have to be something to suggest that dialog has broken down to the point where the extreme outcome is a likely event. The whole premise of the first story is that the sisters weren't talking which was creating hurt feeling between them and last time that happened it resulted in Nightmare Moon and it could happen again. In this story, the sisters are talking so they are at least explaining how they feel, they just disagree that the other is doing more work and decide to which jobs to them to prove the other has it easy. By eliminating that emotional element, it removes the threat that if one of them is proven right, the other will turn evil. Your story would be like if Celestia and Luna held a baking contest and they called Starlight over to be the judge and she was so worried that she might mess up that the end result would turn both of them evil. Which might be true of some characters of the show, but for Starlight, that would seem strangely out of character for her. Then you would also have to explain by Twilight would be so panicky over Starlight judging the sister's cakes. There needs to be something more to explain why things could escalate that far.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 8:37 am

Glimmy sometimes just does the first thing that comes to her mind.

Which is usually MAGIC THE HELL OUT OF IT.

Her character arc is learning that just because she can doesn't mean she should.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 12:12 pm

Soft Snow wrote:But would be worst imaginable scenario for two ponies who realize they have a problem and are trying to solve but fail to do so? What would develop that would make Starlight question if it was the right thing to do? Because at this point in the revision of the story the two sisters are still willing to talk to each other to work things out. There would have to be something to suggest that dialog has broken down to the point where the extreme outcome is a likely event. The whole premise of the first story is that the sisters weren't talking which was creating hurt feeling between them and last time that happened it resulted in Nightmare Moon and it could happen again. In this story, the sisters are talking so they are at least explaining how they feel, they just disagree that the other is doing more work and decide to which jobs to them to prove the other has it easy. By eliminating that emotional element, it removes the threat that if one of them is proven right, the other will turn evil. Your story would be like if Celestia and Luna held a baking contest and they called Starlight over to be the judge and she was so worried that she might mess up that the end result would turn both of them evil. Which might be true of some characters of the show, but for Starlight, that would seem strangely out of character for her. Then you would also have to explain by Twilight would be so panicky over Starlight judging the sister's cakes. There needs to be something more to explain why things could escalate that far.


Like I said. Twilight second guessing her, and her second guessing herself I think would would carry the tension. Twilight would panic and put the idea in her head that if she fails, it could lead to Nightmare Moon's return.
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Postby Just Scuds (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 3:41 pm

Captain Rufus wrote:Glimmy sometimes just does the first thing that comes to her mind.

Which is usually MAGIC THE HELL OUT OF IT.


:wingsright: Magic, it gets results!
Image It might not get you the results you want but, it sure gets 'em! Results!

:here: Where else have we seen somepony like this?


If I had an extra twenty seconds in the episode when Luna turned up on Starlight's dream for them to take in the scene.
:speakest: So, sister, this is your evil alter ego? Day Breaker? Wonders never cease.
Image I admit she's a bit overdone. Nightmare Moon's design isn't anywhere near as gaudy. Advantage: Luna.
:unenthused: Huzzah.
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Postby Ragnar (?) » Tue May 23, 2017 7:44 pm

Captain Rufus wrote:Which is usually MAGIC THE HELL OUT OF IT.

Her character arc is learning that just because she can doesn't mean she should.

It worked great this time, I note. :sbahj:
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 12:49 am

Gloomy Rube wrote:Is what Starlight did morally right? Probably not. Is it something totally in character for her? Yes. That's really all it comes down to in the end. :v:


Yea, pretty much this. I'm not saying Glimmy was right to panic and mark-swap, but it totally makes sense why she did given, well, Glimmy.
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Postby The Doctor (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 1:12 am

:roll: well nervermind then.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 4:10 am

Look, we know you don't like it, but responding over and over again with 'X did it better / Y would have been better'...

I understand you're upset, but it may be helpful to step away instead of using every post to keep venting.
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Postby Captain Rufus (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 4:17 am

Ragnar wrote:It worked great this time, I note. :sbahj:


Yes but no. Because if it worked fine and she didn't learn to just do first and ask forgiveness later (and also think before acting) it means in the future she gonna mess shit up in a bad bad way both emotionally, personally, and in general.

(But it's a semi episodic cartoon with only a loose continuity and a setting with logic that only works if you don't think too hard about it so it might not matter either way. ) :pinkieshrug:

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

But now I totally want a Jeff Goldblum guest star episode.
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Postby Dexanth (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 1:00 pm

Captain Rufus wrote:
Yes but no. Because if it worked fine and she didn't learn to just do first and ask forgiveness later (and also think before acting) it means in the future she gonna mess shit up in a bad bad way both emotionally, personally, and in general.

(But it's a semi episodic cartoon with only a loose continuity and a setting with logic that only works if you don't think too hard about it so it might not matter either way. ) :pinkieshrug:

Past performance does not guarantee future results.

But now I totally want a Jeff Goldblum guest star episode.


Have his episode be about a teleportation accident, and call it The Filly :gotcha:
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Postby Fizzbuzz (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 1:18 pm

Dexanth wrote:
Have his episode be about a teleportation accident, and call it The Filly :gotcha:

But with that title that'd just be about a pony de-aging and becoming a child, not turning into some sort of bug monster. :squintyjack:
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Postby SlateSlabrock (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 1:46 pm

Fizzbuzz wrote:But with that title that'd just be about a pony de-aging and becoming a child, not turning into some sort of bug monster. :squintyjack:

Are you sure?

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Postby Gloomy Rube (?) » Wed May 24, 2017 2:35 pm

in the end, the only thing separating tiny baby ponies and tiny baby changelings is the hardened chitin.
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